A note from Insurance Guy

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Insurance Guy

A note from Insurance Guy

Postby Insurance Guy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:27 pm

I wanted to thank everybody for putting up with my endless posts the past couple of days. Don't worry. I'm back to work tomorrow.

Anyway, its good to see a board with a good amount of investing knowledge. It's pretty obvious that I take a fairly contrarian view to many of you on this board. My request is that if people don't want someone who is not a Bogglehead and has different thoughts, please let me know, and I won't continue to post. I fully understand that while opposing viewpoints aren't bad, they do have the ability to mess with the vibe of a board.

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Postby openminded » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:41 pm

No reason to leave. Nothing wrong with good healthy debate. Besides its fun to watch you get beat up :P

Seriously, You seem like a nice guy.

I think it is very educational for newbies for you to stick around.

Best Wishes

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Re: A note from Insurance Guy

Postby Target2019 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:52 pm

Insurance Guy wrote:I wanted to thank everybody for putting up with my endless posts the past couple of days. Don't worry. I'm back to work tomorrow.

Anyway, its good to see a board with a good amount of investing knowledge. It's pretty obvious that I take a fairly contrarian view to many of you on this board. My request is that if people don't want someone who is not a Bogglehead and has different thoughts, please let me know, and I won't continue to post. I fully understand that while opposing viewpoints aren't bad, they do have the ability to mess with the vibe of a board.
Anybody that can push a thread to over 200 posts in a short time must be a threat to the national security.

I did read a few posts past 200, so I can pretty much tell what happened.

Putting all of that aside, why not take the time to reply with a short synopsis of who you are. I'm sure you're a decent person.

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Please continue ...

Postby Helot » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:10 pm

I would appreciate your continuing to post your thoughts and opinions.

I've read many of your posts over the last week or so and have found them educational.

In the past, I served on a board of directors for a union and was responsible for staying current with employee benefits including healthcare, LTD, LTC, and deferred compensation benefits. In my experience, most employees find insurance and investment products quite difficult to undertstand. Frankly, I found them difficult to understand and spent quite a bit of time researching and studying so as to properly represent my members.

Having, therefore, had my share of experiences with people in these various industries, I believe that you have attempted to explain such products, both their pros and cons, in a thoughtful and honest manner.

I hope you continue to post!

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Re: A note from Insurance Guy

Postby mudfud » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:24 pm

Insurance Guy wrote:I wanted to thank everybody for putting up with my endless posts the past couple of days. Don't worry. I'm back to work tomorrow.

Anyway, its good to see a board with a good amount of investing knowledge. It's pretty obvious that I take a fairly contrarian view to many of you on this board. My request is that if people don't want someone who is not a Bogglehead and has different thoughts, please let me know, and I won't continue to post. I fully understand that while opposing viewpoints aren't bad, they do have the ability to mess with the vibe of a board.


Hopefully you have learnt something from here as well. Introspection is good. Btw, it's Boglehead.

P.S. Also, don't assume that if folks disagree with you, they are brainwashed. There are lots of open-minded, analytical, highly-educated, evidence-based types on this board. Rather, you many not have made a good-enough case for your thesis.
Last edited by mudfud on Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pkcrafter » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:26 pm

I am among those who do not agree with your ideas, and of course I can't tell you to change them. But you do seem knowledgeable and express yourself very well and your contributions could be very valuable. But I just don't see how an ongoing argument like the one in that 200+ thread helps anyone.

I would like to see you continue to post and provide knowledgeable and useful input on a variety of questions, but an ongoing battle on specific insurance products not considered useful by the vast majority here isn't going to help anyone.

By the way, what are your investing ideas. Do you agree with the Boglehead philosophy? If not, what is your long-term wealth accumulation strategy? Maybe we need another 200+ thread on that issue too. :)

Paul
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Haven't read recent posts but

Postby lucky7 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:29 pm

if your expertise is in insurance certainly hope you stay. As get older am considering much in this area. E.g. Slott speaks highly of using life insurance for estate planning. Then there is the whole long term health care situations.
Maybe I will go back and check out prior posts too.
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Postby nisiprius » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:36 pm

I thought you made a worthwhile contribution. In some cases you did not change what my opinion, but forced me to think through and articulate to myself why I have that opinion.

Please continue to post.

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Postby oneleaf » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:44 pm

Gotta give you props for standing up against Boglehead Voltron.

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WELL.............

Postby mephistophles » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:59 pm

Forty years ago you would have been exactly the kind of person I would have hired to be an agent. Back in those days when life insurance was a more viable alternative for at least a percentage of the wider market you would have been highly successful.

Have a great day.

ole meph

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Postby Target2019 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:23 pm

They come not to honor Caesar.

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WOW

Postby lucky7 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:27 pm

Just read, or skimmed, much of that mega thread. Insurance guy, hope you stay around. Term life, estate planning, disability, in some cases umbrella policies and long term care are issues many, am sure, interested. I suspect it is where insurance comes up (if not by words, by examples) as an "investment" that touches a nerve. For estate planning, when the time comes, my comparisons for instance will be vs. trust accounts and its inherent costs/complexities or to simply mitigate estate taxes. There are scenarios in which the latter may make sense. Anyhow hope you stick around. Great thread.

Bob
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Postby White Coat Investor » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:02 pm

We are mostly cheap-ass do-it-yourselfers who hate being ripped off. We have learned through sad experience that complicated is bad, that expensive is bad, and that there are many out there who have no qualms about legally transferring our money into their own accounts as quickly and easily as possible. We've been ripped off time and again by "financial planners", stock brokers, mutual fund salesmen, insurance salesmen, mortgage brokers, realtors etc etc etc. We have learned that you get what you DON'T pay for.

Feel free to stick around. Don't expect some of your ideas to be widely accepted here no matter how long you argue the point though. Very few of us feel anything but disdain for those who profit by selling products designed to be sold, not bought. By your own admission you sell cash-value life insurance, loaded mutual funds, and variable annuities. This puts you into the camp representing that which disgusts us most. Next you'll be talking about timing the market day-trading individual securities and how it is appropriate for most of your clients!

You emphasize that you never sell products inappropriately. Perhaps this is true. There are many doctors who believe that receiving gifts from the pharmaceutical industry doesn't change their behavior. There are good studies out there that show that it does. There are many commission-based financial advisors who believe that commissions don't affect their recommendations. I'm sure if we studied the behavior of large groups of financial product salesmen we would see that commissions do affect their judgement. I liken being an ethical financial product salesman working in that industry to a civilized man living among cannibals. Perhaps one could live among cannibals for years without ever eating human flesh, but it seems pretty tough to me.
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Postby gunn_show » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:10 pm

I only read a page or two of the mega thread, and also agree with Emerg. I give you credit for standing up for your profession and ideals in that thread. While they may not earn you a purple star on this forum board, you have something to contribute.

As a fellow insurance guy, I say stick around.

Just understand your position and how others view it on this board, and move forward as such.
"I love competition. And I want to win." R. Murdoch

Insurance Guy

Postby Insurance Guy » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:23 am

Thanks guys/ladies. I'll stick around.

P.S. Also, don't assume that if folks disagree with you, they are brainwashed. There are lots of open-minded, analytical, highly-educated, evidence-based types on this board. Rather, you many not have made a good-enough case for your thesis.


Don't worry, I don't. I do believe that there is lots of "group-think". I think that this happens with most message boards. It's hard for most people to give contrarian opinions, especially without expertise because their ideas will get completely abused. In other words, it's much easier to espouse popular views without much knowledge as opposed to unpopular views. (I'm not singleing out any particular message board. The exact same thing happens in the opposite direction on message boards that are pro whole life.)

By the way, what are your investing ideas. Do you agree with the Boglehead philosophy? If not, what is your long-term wealth accumulation strategy? Maybe we need another 200+ thread on that issue too.


I'm sure that I'll have it out with some people on these topics also. However, in general, I am in favor of the Boglehead philosopy, but I'm not a Boglehead. For instance, I think that there is a huge problem with the passive/active debate. It focuses on investment performance. Investment performance is very important. However, it pales in comparison to the importance of investor performance.


I am among those who do not agree with your ideas, and of course I can't tell you to change them.


I assume that you are talking about whole life insurance. I'm curious as to whether there are other things that I've mentioned in which you disagree.

Forty years ago you would have been exactly the kind of person I would have hired to be an agent. Back in those days when life insurance was a more viable alternative for at least a percentage of the wider market you would have been highly successful.


Meph, it's interesting because I don't think that there's ever been an easier time to sell whole life insurance than right now. When the market is in a period of time that it keeps going up and up and people think that it's impossible to lose is the only time that it's difficult. However, times are very different than 40 years ago. 40 years ago, I would have made my money simply selling whole life insurance. Now, it doesn't really matter if I sell it or not. There are plenty of ways for me to make money. If I didn't sell a single life insurance policy for the entire year, I would still make a very nice living (planning fees, AUM fees, commissioned investment sales, annuities, DI, LTCi).

I'm sure if we studied the behavior of large groups of financial product salesmen we would see that commissions do affect their judgement.


True and I would say that it is extremely true when we narrow down the field to just include any salesperson who is financially struggling.

By your own admission you sell cash-value life insurance, loaded mutual funds, and variable annuities. This puts you into the camp representing that which disgusts us most.


I would be thrilled if people who felt this way could just change slightly and instead feel that these products are usually inappropriate, but could concede that they might make sense on some rare occassions.

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Postby Buckeye » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:19 am

Please do stick around. There is already way too much 'preaching to the choir' type posts here.

Insurance Guy

Postby Insurance Guy » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:34 am

Please do stick around. There is already way too much 'preaching to the choir' type posts here.


Well, we're in no danger of that with me. I'll just have to make sure to wear my hard hat.

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Postby Live Free or Diehard » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:37 am

Insurance Guy wrote:I'm sure that I'll have it out with some people on these topics also. However, in general, I am in favor of the Boglehead philosopy, but I'm not a Boglehead. For instance, I think that there is a huge problem with the passive/active debate. It focuses on investment performance. Investment performance is very important. However, it pales in comparison to the importance of investor performance.

In reality, I don't think most people here disagree with you on this. I think a lot of people here have the same idea; they just use different words. For instance, an investor needs to find an asset allocation that meets their risk tolerance. The problem is that most beginning investors don't know their risk tolerance until they're in a bear market. Everyone who has invested through the tech bubble has an idea of what their tolerance for risk is. The investment performance of each asset allocation can then be maximized with passive investments. You can't maximize investor performance until you figure out your risk tolerance and thus your asset allocation.

Insurance Guy wrote:Don't worry. I'm back to work tomorrow.

Have you been on vacation all week; and that's why you've been posting here so much? I noticed that in one week you have made nearly as many posts as I have in about five months. When I take a week off I usually travel somewhere and forget about posting here.

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Postby bolt » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:38 am

[removed at request of poster]

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Insurance Guy

Postby prh2s » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:39 am

I mostly agree with you about LTD vs. DI, and mostly disagree with you about the virtues of cash-value life insurance (though I didn't participate in the conversation on that topic). Still, so long as your posts remain civil, noncommercial, and free of disinformation, I for one would be happy to see you stay.

Insurance Guy wrote:I think that there is a huge problem with the passive/active debate. It focuses on investment performance. Investment performance is very important. However, it pales in comparison to the importance of investor performance.


Personally, I strongly favor passive investing. Still, I thought Jason Zweig made some interesting points about actively managed funds in a Q&A with morningstar.com subscribers several years ago. Here's his take:

Jason Zweig wrote:I used to think only a moron would own actively managed funds, but that's just way off-base. Actively-managed funds exist for the same reason that casinos and lotteries and cosmetics companies and fantasy baseball camps exist: because the hope of improving ourselves, no matter how long the odds, is a profound part of the human condition. The people who predict that index funds will someday eliminate all actively managed funds are off their rocker. It just ain't a-gonna happen.

Since so many investors suffer from a chronic craving to bet on long shots, it's irresponsible to force them into feeling that they should just get out of the game and put all their money into index funds; they'll never be happy. When some actively managed fund beats the index, they'll kick themselves that they don't own it. When a bear market takes their index fund down, they'll eat themselves up over that. As I've written before, indexing only works well for people who can unashamedly say, "I don't know and I don't care." You need enough emotional detachment to set up what I call a permanent autopilot portfolio; if you'll be tempted to second-guess your index funds, you're better off not buying them in the first place. To be a good index-fund investor, you must be willing to completely renounce the notion that investing is a sport, and most investors just can't do that. So, while I doubt I'll ever stop recommending index funds, I no longer want to browbeat everyone into buying them. There are just too many people whose personalities are ill-suited to this kind of investing.

And there are good reasons to own an actively managed fund, although performance is not one of them. If you buy an actively managed fund because you think it will "beat the market," then you're just asking for trouble. And in the financial markets, more than anywhere else, people who ask for trouble get it. Regression to the mean is the most irresistible force, the most inevitable law, in the investing world. A fund that has been outperforming is all but certain to stop outperforming soon, and it's guaranteed to stop outperforming immediately if YOU buy it. So I would never buy an actively managed fund on hopes that it will beat the market.

For starters, it's worth owning an actively managed fund that invests in an area, or in a way, that no index fund reaches. (You won't, for example, find an emerging-markets bond index fund, or a market-neutral index fund, or a "deep-value" index fund, or an earnings-momentum index fund, or a "focus" index fund that invests in only a handful of stocks.)

More importantly, any fund that makes you feel as if you are part of a community with shared beliefs is worth owning. If you really do still believe that technology will change the world and that no price is too high to pay for true innovation, then you belong in a fund with a charismatic manager who can preach about MIPs and chips until your pulse is pounding. If you insist on getting two cups out of every teabag and refilling your office printer with used paper, then you may well feel at home in a value fund whose manager won't buy any stock with a P/E bigger than a shoe size.

There aren't many, but a few fund companies have worked long and hard to establish a consistent philosophy that permeates everything they do: Ariel, Baron, Bridgeway, Clipper, Davis, FAM, FPA, Longleaf, Muhlenkamp, Numeric Investors, Oak Associates, Oakmark, Third Avenue, Tweedy Browne. There are others, but these are the ones that spring first to my mind. Most of them are small "boutiques," and their investing styles have nothing in common. But they all place enormous value on communicating openly and honestly with their shareholders, and they all view the investing world in an utterly distinctive (even idiosyncratic) way that makes their clients feel like part of a special club. Fostering this feeling of community is something that's never talked about, but I think it's vitally important.

Anything that makes you want to stick around in a good fund is a good thing--since the worst enemy you face as an investor is your own pathological urge to move your money around. Investing is not a battle against the markets. It's a battle against yourself--and the more patience you can muster, the more certain you are to prevail in the end. So any fund company that fosters a sense of community, that makes you feel like a privileged member in a club of like-minded people, will help you stay the course and reach your goals. (Of the big fund companies, Vanguard and the American Funds have probably come closest to the examples set by these small boutiques.)


Perhaps Zweig's thoughts about investor performance echo yours?

Patrick

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GROUP THINK

Postby mephistophles » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:19 pm

Very interesting to hear that Vanguard Diehards, Bogleheads are suffering from groupthink as Iguy suggest. Well, on that observation, I have to agree. I am very happy to be part of this groupthink as it has been a very profitable, low expense, low tax, diversified way to meet my lifetime financial goals.

I really have no problem with groupthink practiced here because it is the right way to think.

ole meph

p.s. Anothr example of groupthink which is O.K. with most of us is................................The Golden Rule

Insurance Guy

Postby Insurance Guy » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:58 pm

Have you been on vacation all week; and that's why you've been posting here so much? I noticed that in one week you have made nearly as many posts as I have in about five months. When I take a week off I usually travel somewhere and forget about posting here.


Unfortunately not. My wife has been sick (she'll be fine) and I've been home taking care of the family. You guys got stuck with one extra day of too much posting from me.

Meph, I hope that you realize that I wasn't using "Group Think" as a cut down. This is a great board. I think that it is the reality that surfaces anytime there is either a strong leader of a group or an overriding majority opinion.

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x

Postby TimDex » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:02 pm

The "groupthink" or "overriding majority opinion" here can also be thought of as simply a very low tolerance for b.s.

Tim
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Insurance Guy

Postby pkcrafter » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:50 pm

IG wrote:
I'm sure that I'll have it out with some people on these topics also. However, in general, I am in favor of the Boglehead philosopy, but I'm not a Boglehead. For instance, I think that there is a huge problem with the passive/active debate. It focuses on investment performance. Investment performance is very important. However, it pales in comparison to the importance of investor performance.


I assume by investor performance you are referring to behavior.

IG, You do not thoroughly understand the Boglehead approach. You can be a Boglehead and believe that investor behavior is more important than active/passive, and in fact it is. So, I certainly agree with you on that.

There certainly is a strong argument that can be made for passive, however. A lot of it hinges on the undeniable advantages of lower costs. Also, in the real world many investors have little choice but to use active funds. Their option is to choose the best they can in a given situation.

IG:
I assume that you are talking about whole life insurance. I'm curious as to whether there are other things that I've mentioned in which you disagree.


I have not read everything you have posted, so can't comment. However, I do agree that a more serious problem than active/passive is investor behavior. Being a Boglehead is about being an efficient investor in terms of netting the highest return possible for the amount of risk taken. That means adopting a certain behavior and a proper portfolio.

Paul
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Insurance Guy

Postby Insurance Guy » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:07 pm

Paul, we're on the same page. I think that the Boglehead approach has lots to offer and that's part of why I'm here.

I assume by investor performance you are referring to behavior.


That's definitely a huge part of it. However, usually when we talk about investor behavior, we are referring to the fact that the typical investor will underperform the funds in which they invest. I've seen the Dalbar studies that will show that the average investor over a 20 year period received a return of 3.7% and the S&P returned 13.4%. (The methodology is flawed, but I think that the point is accurate that people underperform their funds.) Also, I know a sure fire way to drastically increase returns. I'll take a $100 investor and twist his arm to become a $200 investor. This doesn't increase his rate of return, but isn't the ROR rather meaningless in comparison to how much money a person has?

As an advisor, my value is not in fund picking. I bring much more value to the table via simple hand holding and arm twisting.

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Postby woof755 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:11 pm

Insurance Guy wrote:
Have you been on vacation all week; and that's why you've been posting here so much? I noticed that in one week you have made nearly as many posts as I have in about five months. When I take a week off I usually travel somewhere and forget about posting here.


Unfortunately not. My wife has been sick (she'll be fine) and I've been home taking care of the family. You guys got stuck with one extra day of too much posting from me.

Meph, I hope that you realize that I wasn't using "Group Think" as a cut down. This is a great board. I think that it is the reality that surfaces anytime there is either a strong leader of a group or an overriding majority opinion.


125 posts in 8 days? Impressive. IMO, you're a "newbie" like a college freshman in week 11 of the season. Stuff to learn about the philosophy, but certainly some experience under your belt!

(and from the sounds of it, maybe a high ankle sprain / cracked rib to show for your efforts!
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Postby bearcat98 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:41 pm

I'm actually posting here in reply to something you wrote in the other thread, because it's off the topic of whole life insurance, and more on the topic of what you do generally.

Insurance Guy wrote:
This is exactly why the Lexus/Toyota dealership example from earlier (that I don't remember you acknowledging) is so perfect. Whether it is loaded funds or a 1% management fee, you are going to push the customer to something YOU provide one way or the other (most in this forum hates both of your options by the way). You are not going to tell them to go down the street and buy a Toyota. In fact, it is in your best interest to make sure they forget or not be aware in the first place that there are other quality options out there.

However, this forum does not work like that. It's goal is to make people aware of the entire marketplace and all the options a person has so they can make the best choice for them whether it is a product offered by you or somewhere else.

You may offer you clients your best option for them and feel great about that, but stop acting like that means no better options exist outside of what you can do for them.


This is just silly. I run a business. If someone wants my help, they half to pay me for it. Should my advice be, "Don't ask me, go talk to some anonymous people on a website."? My clients aren't DIY people because they don't want to be DIY and they can't do the insurance on their own even if they wanted to do so. If they want a Lexus, they can get it from me. If they want a Toyota, they can get from me. If they want to make their own investment decisions, I do tell them to go invest on their own.


I'm not sure what you mean, Insurance Guy. Do you tell your clients that they can get equity-level returns, with minimal tracking error or excess volatility, by buying a low-cost, no-load index fund (in this analogy, telling them to look at a Toyota Corolla), or do you just try to find the best fit from the funds that will pay you a load (in this analogy, guiding them to a Lexus in your dealership)?

Yes, you run a business, in part, selling mutual funds to people who need a little extra guidance. That doesn't make you a bad person. And it's not clear from your answers whether you do, in fact, let them know that they can save your time and their money fairly easily by, as you say, "DIY"ing it. But if your advice is limited in this respect by your desire to get paid (an understandable desire), that means that your clients are getting less information than they need to make good financial decisions.

Many fund salesmen do so limit their "advice." This board exists to fill such gaps in the advice that people receive. And frankly, it doesn't matter for purposes of this forum whether you scrupulously sell load/fee funds only in situations where they are appropriate, because services like yours are unnecessary for readers here: anyone who is able to find and understand this forum can get advice to assess their goals and risk tolerance, go vanguard.com, and buy an appropriate mix of low-cost investments.

So trying to defend load/fee funds here is a bit like trying to defend Jiffy Lube at an oil changing forum. It's a bit off-topic, everyone regards it as a waste of money (because it is for them), and the best you can hope for is that it be viewed as a harmless luxury that non-crazy people can un-foolishly decide to spend their money on. In other words, it's a silly thing to do.

I do hope you stick around this board and continue to pipe up when you think you have something to add. I just want to get a feel for where you're coming from, and warn you that the tenor of this board will always be on the side of the well-informed, self-aware, information-age, disintermediating, stingy investor, because that is how we view ourselves. Expensive products for which there are cheap and simple substitutes, such as load funds, will not be received well because they do not serve investors like us.

Insurance Guy

Postby Insurance Guy » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:20 am

I'm not sure what you mean, Insurance Guy. Do you tell your clients that they can get equity-level returns, with minimal tracking error or excess volatility, by buying a low-cost, no-load index fund (in this analogy, telling them to look at a Toyota Corolla), or do you just try to find the best fit from the funds that will pay you a load (in this analogy, guiding them to a Lexus in your dealership)?


I try to help my clients achieve their financial goals. If someone wants to work with me, I need to get paid. It's their choice as to whether they want to pay me a fee or if they want me to earn commissions. I don't like this car analogy, but I guess if we're sticking to it, if the client wants the Toyota Corolla, they will have to pay me a fee if they want my help in picking the best Toyota Corolla for them.

You have to understand that nobody comes to me and says, "I want equity-level returns, with minimal tracking error or excess volatility". They come to me and say things like, "I want to send my child to college. I'm concerned about what happens if I die today. How am I going to pay for medical expenses when I get older? ...etc." I think that the specific investment choice is one of the least important decisions that gets made.

Yes, you run a business, in part, selling mutual funds to people who need a little extra guidance. That doesn't make you a bad person. And it's not clear from your answers whether you do, in fact, let them know that they can save your time and their money fairly easily by, as you say, "DIY"ing it. But if your advice is limited in this respect by your desire to get paid (an understandable desire), that means that your clients are getting less information than they need to make good financial decisions.


If a client wants to get some basic advice from me and be a DIY, that's fine. I'll charge them a fee and then they can be on their way. However, despite having to pay me, I think that my clients do better working with me than they would do on their own. Let's assume for a second that they would invest in the exact same funds with or without me. They would get 1% less investing with me. However, they would still end up with more money because I'm good at twisting their arm to get them to invest more. It's not about rates of return. It's about achieving goals.

So trying to defend load/fee funds here is a bit like trying to defend Jiffy Lube at an oil changing forum. It's a bit off-topic, everyone regards it as a waste of money (because it is for them), and the best you can hope for is that it be viewed as a harmless luxury that non-crazy people can un-foolishly decide to spend their money on. In other words, it's a silly thing to do.


I actually have no desire to defend load/fee funds. Jiffy Lube makes lots of sense for people who aren't interested in changing their own oil. Fees/commission are fine for people who aren't interested in doing it themselves. I will tell you that my clients have historically gotten much better returns than if they were investing on their own. This could be all luck and there is certainly no guarantee that it will continue this way. It's not something that I ever say to a client. Live by returns. Die by returns. In fact, I very seldom talk rates of return and in planning, I never assume more than 8% and I prefer 7% for aggressive investments. I want my clients mad at me in the long run for forcing them to save too much.

leonard
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Postby leonard » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:49 pm

I do believe that there is lots of "group-think".


If this is groupthink, I would like to have more group think in other areas, especially at work.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

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arrete
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Postby arrete » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:38 pm

Since no other mod/admin has chimed in, I will say we welcome healthy debate of all sorts (barring religion or politics) as long as the debaters are respectful of one another.

Perfectly happy to hear all kinds of views. My portfolio is not very Bogle-like, actually, so even mods are different. :D

Kathy
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