Website that graphs total returns for index funds?

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Derelict
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Website that graphs total returns for index funds?

Post by Derelict » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:46 pm

Maybe a stupid question but do the graphs for index funds on Google and Yahoo show the total return (assuming you have reinvested the dividends) for the fund?

Is there an option that I don't see on their sites that show the total return including reinvested dividends over time?

And a graph that would show the total return for a GNMA Fund if I have the payments reinvested?

I'd like to compare the total return of index funds vs the total return of an individual stock that does not pay dividends over time in a graph.

Is there a website that will do this or do I have to download the index fund adjusted prices and make my own graph on Excel?

dailybagel
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Post by dailybagel » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:01 pm

Not a stupid question at all... you're right that

Vanguard's "Growth of $10,000" graphs include reinvested dividends. You can compare 2-4 funds on one graph. Check out the "Performance" tab for a fund you're interested in.
Image

Not sure if these are available for non-VG funds. Morningstar would be able to help you there, I think.

Don't do any of this in Excel... the information is out there.

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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:11 pm

1) The key question is whether you're looking at a "price chart" or a "growth chart" (sometimes called "hypothetical growth of $10,000"). You want the latter.

2) For reasons I don't quite understand, the basic information on any mutual fund at any mutual fund company's website always has 10-year growth-charts. Must be required.

3) I am very fond of morningstar.com for this information. If it recognizes what you type into the "quote" box as a mutual fund, it gives you the ten-year growth chart. If you click on "more" you'll get options I haven't seen anywhere else. They seem to have every mutual fund all the way back to inception, not just the last ten years. Try it with Wellington (VWELX), or Massachusetts Investors' Trust (MITTX)! And you can pick any starting and stopping dates you like.

4) A lot of the other sites, bigcharts for sure, I think Yahoo and Google was well, only show price charts.

5) In my opinion, growth charts are Good. Price charts are E-ville. You'll notice that the default period for growth charts is usually ten years; the default period for price charts is usually five DAYS. Sort of tells you what kind of investor uses them.
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gavinman
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Post by gavinman » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:34 pm

Do the Morningstar charts include the dividends being reinvested?

I have back tested some Vanguard funds using the portfolio feature and it will reinvest dividends automatically but when looking at the charts it seems lower and I can't figure out if it reinvests dividends.

PB
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Post by PB » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:56 pm

I'm pretty sure Morningstar's 'Quick Take' Performance Chart does what you want. It shows Total Returns for up to 15 years, and here's their definition of Total Return:

Total Return
Expressed in percentage terms, Morningstar's calculation of total return is determined by taking the change in price, reinvesting, if applicable, all income and capital gains distributions during the period, and dividing by the starting price.

Unless otherwise noted, Morningstar does not adjust total returns for sales charges (such as front-end loads, deferred loads, and redemption fees), preferring to give a clearer picture of performance. Total returns do account for the expense ratio, which includes management, administrative, 12b-1 fees, and other costs that are taken out of assets. Total returns for periods longer than one year are expressed in terms of compounded average annual returns (also known as geometric total returns), affording a more meaningful picture of fund performance than nonannualized figures.


Use this link and then you can simply change the Ticker right in your browser address bar. Right now the link is pointing to Vanguard TSM Adm (VTSAX):

http://quicktake.morningstar.com/syndic ... mbol=VTSAX

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Post by livesoft » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:36 pm

In general, "growth of" charts have dividends reinvested while "price of" charts do not.

However, I have noticed that sometimes "growth of" charts do not have some of the most recent dividends in the chart. I've been looking at charts a long time, so after a while, the missing dividends eventually get figured into the chart.

So just be aware that sometimes the charts are not up-to-date or the data is wrong.
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Post by #Cruncher » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:36 pm

gavinman wrote:Do the Morningstar charts include the dividends being reinvested?
Yes. As nisiprius says, if you enter the symbol for a standard mutual fund, Morningstar will produce a "growth" chart, and these do include the effect of dividend being reinvested. I confirmed this by comparing against the return reported by Vanguard. See [ this post ].

weber
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Post by weber » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:11 am

Funny, I'm trying to do just the opposite.
I'm now retired and because I will be "taking" the dividends, I'm more interested in charts that will show the growth without dividends reinvested.
But all the Vanguard charts are set up only to reflect dividends and
capital gains reinvested.

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Post by dbr » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:19 am

weber wrote:Funny, I'm trying to do just the opposite.
I'm now retired and because I will be "taking" the dividends, I'm more interested in charts that will show the growth without dividends reinvested.
But all the Vanguard charts are set up only to reflect dividends and
capital gains reinvested.
Then go here and type in ticker of choice:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=VWELX&t ... z=l&q=l&c=

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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:10 am

Anyone know a site that will chart dividends only?

I can get Morningstar to put funny little round icons on the chart showing when dividends were paid, and I can mouse over them to read a number, but it doesn't show me the numbers graphically.

Yahoo's "historical prices" can be set to show dividends, and it will let me download them as a spreadsheet and chart them myself, like this:

Image

But I'd like a site that will do it for me.

By the way: this is the first time I've tried it. I have no idea what the spikes and the gaps are, I plotted what Yahoo gave me, and I looked at the Yahoo data and that is, in fact, what it shows.
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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:24 am

Should do this more often. This is interesting.

Image

What's going on here with Wellesley? Capital gains distributions? You know, I'd always assumed Wellesley would be managed to make it easy to live off the dividends, a la the Managed Payout funds--but, apparently, no:

Image
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Post by grayfox » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:39 am

At one time I was interested in investing in individual dividend stocks. I had a program that automatically got the dividend data from Yahoo and plotted it.

Sometimes I would see an anomaly in the chart, like a spike. So I would go to the company's website and find the dividend history to check it. I found that there were sometimes errors in Yahoo database. Usually either a missing dividend or sometimes a bogus number. They were usually glaring errors that messed up the normal pattern of dividend increases, so were easy to spot. Sometimes companies paid a special dividend and there was like a $20 payment when the normal dividend was $1. But those are rare.

Anyway, the bottom line is Yahoo is free and there are sometimes errors. Sometimes you have to go back to the original source.

As far as mutual funds, I didn't look at those too much. But I imagine the spikes in Wellesley might be capital gain distributions. I don't think income investors would spend those, but instead re-invest to increase the share count. In other words, capital gain will increase your future income.

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Post by dbr » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:42 am

grayfox wrote:At one time I was interested in investing in individual dividend stocks. I had a program that automatically got the dividend data from Yahoo and plotted it.

Sometimes I would see an anomaly in the chart, like a spike. So I would go to the company's website and find the dividend history to check it. I found that there were sometimes errors in Yahoo database. Usually either a missing dividend or sometimes a bogus number. They were usually glaring errors that messed up the normal pattern of dividend increases, so were easy to spot. Sometimes companies paid a special dividend and there was like a $20 payment when the normal dividend was $1. But those are rare.

Anyway, the bottom line is Yahoo is free and there are sometimes errors. Sometimes you have to go back to the original source.
That, and indeed cap gains distributions are not separated from dividends.

Sorry, I don't have a source.

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Post by #Cruncher » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:41 am

grayfox wrote:I had a program that automatically got the dividend data from Yahoo ... I found that there were sometimes errors in Yahoo database. Usually either a missing dividend or ...
Case in point: the graph nisiprius plotted for the Vanguard TIPS fund omits the dividend paid March 2011. I eyeballed the other dividends going back to 2008 and they look to be correct. Note also that the chart shows dividends being paid on the 1st of the month, while in fact Vanguard pays them near the end of the month. See: Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares (VIPSX) - Distributions. (Click Important information about Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares distributions to see dividends before 2010.)

scboggler
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Re: Website that graphs total returns for index funds?

Post by scboggler » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:42 pm

I found this FINRA tool which worked great for showing the cost of fees on various funds over time:

http://apps.finra.org/fundanalyzer/

mich_bogle
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Re: Website that graphs total returns for index funds?

Post by mich_bogle » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:29 pm

Somewhat related question (let me know if I should post a new thread)

Is there a tool that'll let me show the historical growth of a hypothetical portfolio? For example, give it 2-5 ticker symbols in various percentages, and have it show me a "growth of $10,000" chart for that combination.

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Re: Website that graphs total returns for index funds?

Post by DueDiligence » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:09 pm

mich_bogle wrote:Somewhat related question (let me know if I should post a new thread)

Is there a tool that'll let me show the historical growth of a hypothetical portfolio? For example, give it 2-5 ticker symbols in various percentages, and have it show me a "growth of $10,000" chart for that combination.
portfoliovisualizer.com

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Re: Website that graphs total returns for index funds?

Post by acanthurus » Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:41 pm

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Last edited by acanthurus on Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

toto238
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Re: Website that graphs total returns for index funds?

Post by toto238 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:54 pm

nisiprius wrote: 3) I am very fond of morningstar.com for this information. If it recognizes what you type into the "quote" box as a mutual fund, it gives you the ten-year growth chart. If you click on "more" you'll get options I haven't seen anywhere else. They seem to have every mutual fund all the way back to inception, not just the last ten years. Try it with Wellington (VWELX), or Massachusetts Investors' Trust (MITTX)! And you can pick any starting and stopping dates you like.
I just did this for Wellington, starting in 1929, and it offers a very important history lesson. If you invested $10,000 in Wellington Fund on its opening day in 1929, you would've lost 62% of your money within 2 years. Then you would spend the next 10 years going above and below $10,000 until finally in 1942 you passed your original $10,000 investment for good. So you would've spent essentially 13 years in purgatory before seeing any nominal return. That being said, this was a period of deflation so you may have seen positive real returns a little earlier. And this was for a relatively stable moderate-risk fund. Of course, if you held onto it through thick and thin from 1929 to today, you'd have almost $9mil out of your originally invested $10,000.

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