Electric arcing problem

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matt
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Electric arcing problem

Post by matt »

I had a new snow thrower delivered to my house yesterday. I finished the assembly and took it out to clear some snow that I didn't shovel the day before.

This snow thrower model has a joystick control that is connected to the snow chute with electric cables. The cables run through a small metal guide loop to keep them in place. After using the snow thrower for 5-10 minutes, I noticed an electrical arc between one or more of the cables and the metal guide. It stopped, then came back in a few seconds, arced for a few seconds and stopped, then came back. So I turned the snow thrower off. I wasn’t using the joystick at the time I saw the arcing. I had thought there might be a faint burning smell the whole time I was using the snow thrower, but figured it was just due to its first use, but now I’m guessing that the arcing was happening the whole time.

So can I just wrap some electrical tape around the cables and metal to try to stop the arcing or is this a sign that one of the cables is damaged and needs to be replaced? Visual inspection didn't show any obvious problems.
infecto
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Post by infecto »

If its new I would return it or call the manufacturer to see if they know whats up. Most manufacturers are pretty decent with their support. They might even replace it themselves.
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matt
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Post by matt »

infecto wrote:If its new I would return it or call the manufacturer to see if they know whats up. Most manufacturers are pretty decent with their support. They might even replace it themselves.
Got it from Sears and the overall experience has been quite poor, so I don't have a lot of confidence at this point that they'll take care of it at no cost. There is a two-year warranty if the machine fails, but it says I need to take it to them, which I can't easily do since I don't own a truck or trailer to haul it. They will probably want to charge me to send a a repairman to my house. Sears has a more expansive "protection plan" that is $120 or so, but I passed on it at the time of purchase. I'd like to find out if there's an easy fix or if I need to figure out how to get Sears to fix it.
NateW
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Post by NateW »

I would contact the manufacturer and find out how to return it for another one or refund. They should cover all shipping.

If it were out of warranty I would first check to see if the wire insulation failed and if so, disconnect the wiring so I could prperly repair (or replace it). Use heat shrink tubing over the affected area. You can get it at Radio Shack.

--Nate
NateW
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Post by NateW »

I just read your second post. If it were me in this case, and if I did like the machine, I would repair the wiring, but only do this if you are comfortable repairing things like this. Fixing it yourself is much easier than going through the big warranty repair hassle. It is a pretty straight forward repair.

Was anything sharp chafing the insulation? Or was the insulation on the wire damaged either during manufacture or assembly? If chafing is involved, you need to fix that problem as well.

--Nate
jwkde
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Post by jwkde »

normally when wires pass through metal frames there is usually a grommet of plastic or rubber to protect against this type of issue. Is that missing?
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matt
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Post by matt »

NateW,
I don't see any damage to the cable's insulation. I'm not sure if this is a repair that I would want to do myself - I'm not even sure what the repair would be. Replacing the cables?
SP-diceman
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Re: Electric arcing problem

Post by SP-diceman »

matt wrote: I finished the assembly

So can I just wrap some electrical tape around the cables and metal to try to stop the arcing or is this a sign that one of the cables is damaged and needs to be replaced?
Are you sure you assembled correctly?
(maybe an insulaton sleeve was supposed to be put around the wires)

Since your talking about tape on the wires, Im assuming they have
no insulaton. Typically wires wth no insulaton would be ground/neutral.
(sounds like that is "mixed" up and they're "hot" instead)
Companys like lawsuits from "shocked" customers even less than repairs.

Sounds like something is backwards.
(plus and negative mixed up or the guide loop "hot" instead of ground)

Electronic stores typcally have plastic tubing thats slit to "route" wires,
I would probaby try that instead of tape.
(less messy and wont void any warranties)


Thanks
SP-diceman
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matt
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Post by matt »

jwkde wrote:normally when wires pass through metal frames there is usually a grommet of plastic or rubber to protect against this type of issue. Is that missing?
No, it's just a metal triangle with no insulation of any sort. That's why I was wondering if I could just cover it in electric tape.
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matt
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Post by matt »

SP-diceman,
The cables are insulated and do not appear damaged. The guide loop is just a piece of metal with no insulation.
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matt
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Post by matt »

I should also note that the assembly is limited. It is delivered 98% complete, so all of the cables were already connected when I got it.
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Post by nisiprius »

I won't speak whether you should attempt repair or not. I will say this much: although it probably doesn't make much difference, if I were going to repair it, I would use "heat shrink" tubing rather than tape.

See http://www.doityourself.com/stry/8-ways ... ink-tubing

If there's anyone at the store who knows anything, I'd mention that I don't have a genuine heat shrink heat gun and I'd read the package carefully.

Barring that, I'd use a "butt splice" crimp connector and a cheap crimping tool. You can get the connectors and tool at Radio Shack or Home Depot or numerous other places, about $20 for the whole deal.

Tape is probably fine but the adhesive always seems a little uncertain and it has a tendency to peel away slowly at the end and it always looks wrong, even though as I say it's probably fine. Heat shrink makes an incredibly tight, solid mechanical seal and the material is super tough. I'd think heat shrink would be truly waterproof.
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flossy21
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Improper ground

Post by flossy21 »

Keep in mind that when you insulate the area that is arcing you are addressing the symptom but not the root cause. The wire is arcing because somewhere on the machine there is an improper electrical ground. The machine won't run correctly without being properly grounded. Somewhere in the wiring a ground is intermittently losing contact and, as a result, you are seeing the arcing at another location.

To fix it once and for all you, or the company, needs to find out where the ground was designed to be terminated and fix that so it works as designed. Until you do that you are likely to have problems. If enough of an arc builds up it could use you as a ground at some point. It would likely just be a quick jolt but this could be deadly for someone with a heart condition.

Your best bet is to get a factory authorized tech to look at it.
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Re: Improper ground

Post by Auream »

Does the snowblower even have a battery? I'm a little confused, as every snowblower I've ever experienced is completely gas-powered. Often they'll have an electric starter, but even that requires you to plug it into a household outlet, start it, then remove the plug. Once its running there is nothing electrically powered.

Do snowblowers these days have batteries and inverters? A cursory look on Sears.com doesn't show any indication of that fact.

EDIT: They do make very, very low-powered electric plug-in snowblowers, I had almost forgotten about that. Is that the type of unit you have?
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matt
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Post by matt »

Auream wrote:Does the snowblower even have a battery? I'm a little confused, as every snowblower I've ever experienced is completely gas-powered. Often they'll have an electric starter, but even that requires you to plug it into a household outlet, start it, then remove the plug. Once its running there is nothing electrically powered.

Do snowblowers these days have batteries and inverters? A cursory look on Sears.com doesn't show any indication of that fact.

EDIT: They do make very, very low-powered electric plug-in snowblowers, I had almost forgotten about that. Is that the type of unit you have?
It's a powerful 26 inch Craftsman model #247.889702. It does have the plug-in start, so I guess you're right that there is no battery.
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NAVigator
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Post by NAVigator »

I also just bought a snow blower from Sears and opted for the extra service plan. I haven't used my snow blower yet since there was only about 2 inches of snow so far and I just used a shovel to clear my driveway.

I would first contact the manufacturer, who will probably tell you to take it back to Sears. I would contact Sears and let them know what happened. Tell them it was a defect in the product and you want to swap it for another one and that you expect them to deliver another machine and pick up this one, at their expense. If they resist, then negotiate the delivery.

I would not get this fixed since it was a manufacturing defect. Exchange it for another new machine. If the cables were melting the insulation, this may lead to other problems later on.

I know how the cables were already assembled. That is how mine was designed as well. This should clearly be their problem and not yours.

Jerry
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Auream
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Post by Auream »

matt wrote: It's a powerful 26 inch Craftsman model #247.889702. It does have the plug-in start, so I guess you're right that there is no battery.
So no battery? So the only electricity would be coming from the magneto to drive the spark plug. I don't see how or why that would be connected to any cables that go up to the controls, that should all be self-contained in the engine. If a spark plug wire was shorted out to something else, I'd think the engine wouldn't run at all vs. running fine but getting an electric arc occasionally, but I'm not a snowblower expert.
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Post by SP-diceman »

matt wrote:SP-diceman,
The cables are insulated and do not appear damaged. The guide loop is just a piece of metal with no insulation.
So the spark is passing thru the insulaton?
That would sound pretty dangerous.
(wet snow wouldnt help matters)

Typically it would "leak" from exposed wire somewhere.


Thanks
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dbr
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Post by dbr »

Auream wrote:
matt wrote: It's a powerful 26 inch Craftsman model #247.889702. It does have the plug-in start, so I guess you're right that there is no battery.
So no battery? So the only electricity would be coming from the magneto to drive the spark plug. I don't see how or why that would be connected to any cables that go up to the controls, that should all be self-contained in the engine. If a spark plug wire was shorted out to something else, I'd think the engine wouldn't run at all vs. running fine but getting an electric arc occasionally, but I'm not a snowblower expert.
Low voltage electrical sources don't arc through insulation. I am not even clear that these cables are electrical as opposed to mechanical in nature, but if the controls are electrical, what is the power source for them?

If arcing is really happening through insulation, as suggested the only source for that is the spark plug circuit.

A long shot is that what is being observed is some form of static electricity discharge. Blowing dry snow can create tremendous static electricity build-up.
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Post by matt »

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Since it's not clear what the problem is and I don't want this to turn into a "noise in my attic" saga, I went to Sears and talked to a manager. They are going to send out a repairman in a few days at no charge. Hopefully he can figure it out and fix it right away.

By the way, I had a repairman out 3 weeks ago to look at my old snow thrower. I paid him $80 for the service call to tell me that the replacement parts aren't made anymore, which is why I had to buy a new one. It's been a heckuva fantastic snow thrower experience this season.
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Post by The Wizard »

Owners of things like chain saws and snow throwers are really better off if they can get comfortable with doing their own maintenance.
The owner's guide tells you most of what you need to know but you do need the proper tools and some sort of garage/workshop where you can take care of things...

Also, it's not clear that the "cable" the OP is talking about is electrical. Most snowthrower cables are just mechanical, transmitting motion from a handle to some gizmo, like a bicycle handbrake...
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Post by matt »

The Wizard wrote:Owners of things like chain saws and snow throwers are really better off if they can get comfortable with doing their own maintenance.
I try to figure out what I can and fix things whenever possible. But it is not necessarily in my best interest to learn everything I can about small engine maintenance. It might save me a couple hundred dollars a year, but the amount of extra time spent learning and working on these things is time I can't use on other things that have higher value to me. Plus, I don't enjoy doing repair work. My goal is to avoid paying someone to do ridiculously easy work, but if it's complicated I'll pay someone who knows what they're doing because they spend 40 hours per week doing it.

The problem I posed in this thread also emphasizes a critical issue in repairing anything - you have to first identify the problem. The fix may be mechanically simple, but that doesn't help if I don't know what is causing trouble.
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Post by SP-diceman »

matt wrote:I don't want this to turn into a "noise in my attic" saga
:)
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flossy21
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Just a quick check

Post by flossy21 »

Can you confirm that the spark plug boot is firmly connected to the spark plug. Basically while the machine is not running or plugged into anything. Grab the rubber boot over the spark plug and make sure it is firmly seated over the plug. Also take a look and make sure the plug wire has no exposed metal at all.

If that all looks good then it is up to the tech.

I am guessing that maybe the plug wire is loose on the plug and you are getting some arcing elsewhere as a result.
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Post by The Wizard »

matt wrote: The problem I posed in this thread also emphasizes a critical issue in repairing anything - you have to first identify the problem. The fix may be mechanically simple, but that doesn't help if I don't know what is causing trouble.
This is completely true.
You can also get a burning rubber smell if there's a problem with either set of drive belts (auger or wheels).
Guess you've got a guy coming out from Sears to fix it, but make sure to update us on what he found...
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Post by nisiprius »

Snowblowers are a great example of what I call illusory convenience. I have one and I wouldn't be without it, and when it's a nice sunny day and you have just the right depth of just the right consistency of snow, I feel so grown-up chugging along with that powerful-sounding big grownup motor and the snow getting thrown up in a big shimmering arc and so forth. It's great!

And, net, it probably does save time even when you include the time it take to earn the money to buy it. And drive to the gas station to fill the gas cans. And drive to the place to get the gasoline stabilizer. And pay for the shed to store the gas and the snowblower because you're scared of storing them in the house. And drive to the place to get the new shear pins after you hit the biggish branch hidden under the snow. And wrestle the darn thing into the trunk to get it to the power equipment place to get it tuned every few years. And dig out the weatherproof extension cord to plug in the electric starter on the days it won't start, after first exhausting yourself trying to start it with the pull cord because you can't remember where you put the weatherproof cord. And the time spent cleaning the packed slush out of the second stage on the days when you knew the snow was really too wet for the snowblower but it was really to wet to want to think of shoveling anyway.

I'm convinced it does save time, overall. Really. But nowhere near as much time as you thought, back, when you don't have one and you saw someone else with one and you were watching during the moments when was is saving time and not seeing the moments when it was costing time.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius »

Snowblowers are a great example of what I call illusory convenience. I have one and I wouldn't be without it, and when it's a nice sunny day and you have just the right depth of just the right consistency of snow, I feel so grown-up chugging along with that powerful-sounding big grownup motor and the snow getting thrown up in a big shimmering arc and so forth. It's great!

And, net, it probably does save time even when you include the time it take to earn the money to buy it. And drive to the gas station to fill the gas cans. And drive to the place to get the gasoline stabilizer. And pay for the shed to store the gas and the snowblower because you're scared of storing them in the house. And drive to the place to get the new shear pins after you hit the biggish branch hidden under the snow. And wrestle the darn thing into the trunk to get it to the power equipment place to get it tuned every few years. And dig out the weatherproof extension cord to plug in the electric starter on the days it won't start, after first exhausting yourself trying to start it with the pull cord because you can't remember where you put the weatherproof cord. And the time spent worrying over whether you need to call the electrician because the outdoor outlet looks a little funny from the winter week you accidentally left it wide open after you used it to start the snowblower. And the time spent cleaning the packed slush out of the second stage on the days when you knew the snow was really too wet for the snowblower but it was really to wet to even think of shoveling anyway.

I'm convinced it does save time, overall. Really. But nowhere near as much time as you thought, back, when you don't have one and you saw someone else with one and you were watching during the moments when was is saving time and not seeing the moments when it was costing time.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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Post by Auream »

The Wizard wrote: Also, it's not clear that the "cable" the OP is talking about is electrical. Most snowthrower cables are just mechanical, transmitting motion from a handle to some gizmo, like a bicycle handbrake...
The cables running up to the "control panel" are definitely not electrical. There is no continuous supply of electricity (like a battery) to power electrical controls on a snowblower. A quick google search confirms that the "joystick" control on some newer models operates by mechanically engaging a gear powered by the engine.

I hadn't considered static electricity, but that could just be it.
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Post by Eureka »

nisiprius wrote:Snowblowers are a great example of what I call illusory convenience. I have one and I wouldn't be without it, and when it's a nice sunny day and you have just the right depth of just the right consistency of snow, I feel so grown-up chugging along with that powerful-sounding big grownup motor and the snow getting thrown up in a big shimmering arc and so forth. It's great!

And, net, it probably does save time even when you include the time it take to earn the money to buy it. And drive to the gas station to fill the gas cans. And drive to the place to get the gasoline stabilizer. And pay for the shed to store the gas and the snowblower because you're scared of storing them in the house. And drive to the place to get the new shear pins after you hit the biggish branch hidden under the snow. And wrestle the darn thing into the trunk to get it to the power equipment place to get it tuned every few years. And dig out the weatherproof extension cord to plug in the electric starter on the days it won't start, after first exhausting yourself trying to start it with the pull cord because you can't remember where you put the weatherproof cord. And the time spent cleaning the packed slush out of the second stage on the days when you knew the snow was really too wet for the snowblower but it was really to wet to want to think of shoveling anyway.

I'm convinced it does save time, overall. Really. But nowhere near as much time as you thought, back, when you don't have one and you saw someone else with one and you were watching during the moments when was is saving time and not seeing the moments when it was costing time.
As the service manager at the shop that repairs mine said, "It's a low-use, high-maintenance item."
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