IRS forcing new Login

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andyandyandy
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IRS forcing new Login

Post by andyandyandy »

I tried to login to IRS using my existing username and password and it seems to suggest very soon we should create a new account.
No action was taken just to check with the community first that it's not something spooky:

Message showing on IRS website:

This sign-in option won't work after this filing season. Please create a new account as soon as possible.
Did anybody else also saw it?

Thanks
stan1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by stan1 »

I will wait as long as possible.
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nisiprius
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by nisiprius »

They've been showing that message for a very long time.

The IRS wanted to transition to a new system that relied on a privately-operated identity verification service called ID.me. This requires giving ID.me a lot of sensitive information including a picture of your face. When they started using it, there was an uproar over privacy issues and the IRS quickly backed off and quit using it. In 2022 they seemed to announce that they are giving up on ID.me and will develop a new system of their own that will not rely on facial identification.

So it's all a mess, and they either forgot to remove the warning from the website, or they are leaving it in place because they are still planning to move to a new system. But not ID.me. And not immediately, someday. My guess is that it's pretty iffy if it will be in place in time for the next tax season.
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Eno Deb
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by Eno Deb »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:17 pm They've been showing that message for a very long time.

The IRS wanted to transition to a new system that relied on a privately-operated identity verification service called ID.me. This requires giving ID.me a lot of sensitive information including a picture of your face. When they started using it, there was an uproar over privacy issues and the IRS quickly backed off and quit using it. In 2022 they seemed to announce that they are giving up on ID.me and will develop a new system of their own that will not rely on facial identification.

So it's all a mess, and they either forgot to remove the warning from the website, or they are leaving it in place because they are still planning to move to a new system. But not ID.me. And not immediately, someday. My guess is that it's pretty iffy if it will be in place in time for the next tax season.
Just as a bit of clarification, they said they were going to adopt Login.gov, which is an existing government-run solution that is already used by some government services such as the SSA and the CBP Global Entry program. Even the IRS has already moved some minor services to it (but not the main IRS online account).

I think it's quite likely that they will actually migrate (perhaps after the big tax return rush is over). I assume that the legacy login will continue to work until then. It's not clear yet how their ID verification system will work.
stan1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by stan1 »

Eno Deb wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:36 pm Just as a bit of clarification, they said they were going to adopt Login.gov, which is an existing government-run solution that is already used by some government services such as the SSA and the CBP Global Entry program. Even the IRS has already moved some minor services to it.

I think it's quite likely that they will actually migrate (perhaps after the big tax return rush is over). I assume that the legacy login will continue to work until then.
Login.gov might not be any better than id.me.
https://www.gsa.gov/cdnstatic/logingov_ ... 202022.pdf

There is a lot of data shared with their "third party provider" (aka contractor) identity proofing service, and more data is sent to LexisNexis who is a data aggregator. I'm sure they are all trustworthy, won't be targeted, and we have nothing to worry about.
Eno Deb
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by Eno Deb »

stan1 wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:43 pm
Eno Deb wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:36 pm Just as a bit of clarification, they said they were going to adopt Login.gov, which is an existing government-run solution that is already used by some government services such as the SSA and the CBP Global Entry program. Even the IRS has already moved some minor services to it.

I think it's quite likely that they will actually migrate (perhaps after the big tax return rush is over). I assume that the legacy login will continue to work until then.
Login.gov might not be any better than id.me.
https://www.gsa.gov/cdnstatic/logingov_ ... 202022.pdf

There is a lot of data shared with their "third party provider" (aka contractor) identity proofing service, and more data is sent to LexisNexis who is a data aggregator. I'm sure they are all trustworthy, won't be targeted, and we have nothing to worry about.
I know. EPIC has already sent a complaint to them:

https://epic.org/epic-urges-gsa-to-prev ... login-gov/

I believe it will still be better than ID.me. Supposedly they are planning to offer in-person ID verification at post offices, so at least for that you won't have to submit biometric and other sensitive information online. And hopefully the government will restrict what LexisNexis can do with the data.

After ID.me lied about how they use the biometric information, and various complaints that people started to receive spam after using them, I don't trust ID.me at all. We shouldn't have to give our sensitive information to a shady company to access government services.
avidracer
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by avidracer »

i thought id.me was a deals website masquerading as authenticator with their govt connections, looks like all fed/state services are still languishing far behind.
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andyandyandy
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by andyandyandy »

Thank you all for your thoughts!
986racer
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by 986racer »

After getting my return information stolen using the IRS's identity schemes, I was happy to use ID.me and Login.gov

The old scheme was laughably easy for criminals to steal anybody's tax transcripts. Supposedly 350K transcripts were stolen, but the number could really be as high as 23 million : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... t-service/
rtt22
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by rtt22 »

I see a new message when logging in to irs.gov using an existing username:

This sign-in option won't work after May 16, 2023. Please create a new account as soon as possible.

The only way to create a new account is with ID.me.
The IRS offers multiple ways to verify your identity with ID.me.
You can use either a self-service process that requires a photo of a government ID and selfie, or a live call with an ID.me video chat agent that doesn’t require biometric data. Any selfie, video, and/or biometric data will be deleted automatically, except for suspicious or fraudulent activity.
Send in a "selfie" !!!

Up thread someone talked about login.gov. What is login.gov?
biscuit5
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by biscuit5 »

andyandyandy wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:57 pm Message showing on IRS website:
This sign-in option won't work after this filing season. Please create a new account as soon as possible.
Did anybody else also saw it?
I saw it too a week ago but did not create a new login at the time. I feared it would interfere with making a tax payment due now - like they would have to snail mail me something to continue forming the new login etc. I think (?) that is what happened before when I created my account, so, no rush to create a new login unless absolutely required down the road.

I do wonder if that new FedNow payment system may come in to play here somehow....to make 'payments' etc.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/15/long-aw ... -july.html
Freefun
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by Freefun »

I continue to see the May 16 warning. Should I create a new account using ID ME or just continue using my old account?
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?
stan1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by stan1 »

Freefun wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:00 pm I continue to see the May 16 warning. Should I create a new account using ID ME or just continue using my old account?
Unless there is something urgent I would wait until the old login actually fails to work.
Freefun
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by Freefun »

stan1 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:09 pm
Freefun wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:00 pm I continue to see the May 16 warning. Should I create a new account using ID ME or just continue using my old account?
Unless there is something urgent I would wait until the old login actually fails to work.
Only quarterly estimated tax payments. Happy to wait until the older login fails.
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?
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skylarkguy
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by skylarkguy »

I will resume filing taxes with paper forms, an envelope, and stamps before I register for me id.me service and upload my ID. I spend as much time trying to electronically sign my return (tracking down PIN numbers, verifying AGI from last year) than in actually doing my taxes.

I am organized, so doing the math in a spreadsheet and transferring numerical values to a paper form makes a lot of sense for me.
rkhusky
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by rkhusky »

skylarkguy wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:56 pm I will resume filing taxes with paper forms, an envelope, and stamps before I register for me id.me service and upload my ID. I spend as much time trying to electronically sign my return (tracking down PIN numbers, verifying AGI from last year) than in actually doing my taxes.

I am organized, so doing the math in a spreadsheet and transferring numerical values to a paper form makes a lot of sense for me.
Replicating the calculations in a spreadsheet helps me understand the tax code. Plus I can do tax planning through the year.
single2019
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by single2019 »

stan1 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:09 pm
Freefun wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:00 pm I continue to see the May 16 warning. Should I create a new account using ID ME or just continue using my old account?
Unless there is something urgent I would wait until the old login actually fails to work.
Old login still works. May 16 warning is gone
alexbogle
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by alexbogle »

I signed up for id.me a couple of years ago. I was uneasy about scanning my face but figured I didn't have much of a choice as I needed the account and I hoped that the government would have strict security around it. I'm disappointed but not too surprised :(. Oh well. I hope they enjoy looking at my ugly mug.
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truenorth418
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by truenorth418 »

Those of you who still have access to your IRS accounts should consider themselves very fortunate. As noted on another thread many of us lost access to our accounts several months ago with no warning and no explanation. The IRS is aware of the problem but it doesn’t seem to be a priority for them to fix it. It happened to me after several months of using the ID.me login with no problem, so it doesn’t appear that is the reason, but after dealing with this fiasco for the past tax season and anticipating the same every year for the rest of my life, my advice to all here is: don’t sign up for ID.me, don’t sign up for IP PIN, don’t be proactive in any way when it comes to the IRS. Only do what you must and only do that when you are absolutely forced to. It’s just another thing that can go wrong.
scrabbler1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by scrabbler1 »

I had set up an account with the IRS a few years ago to track the progress of a long-delayed refund, and, for the most recent filing season, a somewhat easier process of making an electronic payment. But, with the old 2FA system now bye-bye (isn't 2FA secure enough?), and lacking the technology to sign up with ID.me, I will be without this IRS online service any more. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.
alexbogle
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by alexbogle »

> lacking the technology to sign up with ID.me

What technology are you lacking?
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scrabbler1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by scrabbler1 »

alexbogle wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:49 am > lacking the technology to sign up with ID.me

What technology are you lacking?
I don't have a smart phone, so I can't upload a selfie. I don't have a webcam, so I can't have a video chat. No need or interest in getting either one.
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AAA
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by AAA »

single2019 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:09 am Old login still works. May 16 warning is gone
What do you mean by the "warning" is gone? I just logged in to make an estimated tax payment with my existing email address and password and while I don't remember the exact wording, it was suggested that I set up new log in credentials.

Is the new log in that is being suggested id.me? Has a date been set when this will be required?
talzara
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by talzara »

AAA wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:55 am
single2019 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:09 am Old login still works. May 16 warning is gone
What do you mean by the "warning" is gone? I just logged in to make an estimated tax payment with my existing email address and password and while I don't remember the exact wording, it was suggested that I set up new log in credentials.

Is the new log in that is being suggested id.me? Has a date been set when this will be required?
The May 16 date has been removed. The login page now says, "Please create a new account as soon as possible."

The IRS is moving to login.gov. The integration work has already been completed, and the IRS was planning to move to login.gov earlier this year. However, the move was postponed to avoid disrupting tax filing season.

It's possible that the IRS logins will continue to work until October, when the extensions are due. However, no date has been announced.
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AAA
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by AAA »

talzara wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:47 pm The IRS is moving to login.gov. The integration work has already been completed, and the IRS was planning to move to login.gov earlier this year. However, the move was postponed to avoid disrupting tax filing season.
Thanks for the clarification.

What personal information does login.gov require in order to verify one's identity?
talzara
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by talzara »

AAA wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:30 am Thanks for the clarification.

What personal information does login.gov require in order to verify one's identity?
Each government agency decides how much personal information it needs to verify your identity.
Some agencies require you to verify who you are.

Login.gov verifies your identity for the agency. By submitting personal identifiable information (PII), such as your photo ID, you can verify that you are you and not someone pretending to be you. We only confirm that you are you and do not make any determination on eligibility for agency services.

https://login.gov/what-is-login/
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AAA
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by AAA »

talzara wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:40 pm Each government agency decides how much personal information it needs to verify your identity.
I thought the idea of login.gov was to have a single log in method for the federal government. Are you saying that to get to that point the procedure might be different for different agencies but once you have established a login.gov identity it should work anywhere - IRS, Social Security, etc.?
talzara
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by talzara »

AAA wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:17 pm I thought the idea of login.gov was to have a single log in method for the federal government. Are you saying that to get to that point the procedure might be different for different agencies but once you have established a login.gov identity it should work anywhere - IRS, Social Security, etc.?
Login.gov is just a sign-in method. It does not know if the account is who it claims to be.

Each agency decides how much information it needs to verify that the account is who it claims to be. Once you have done that, you can use the same login.gov account to sign in to all the government agencies that you've linked to that account.
talzara
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by talzara »

The IRS has removed the option to use legacy logins.

Until the IRS moves to login.gov, ID.me is the only option for logging in to irs.gov.
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AAA
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by AAA »

Trying to understand all this...

So as of right now I can go to login.gov and set up an account without having to provide any documentation of my identity. There's an option to log in to Social Security with the login.gov account that I just set up. I assume it will then ask for identifying information and then from that point on I could just use login,gov with Social Security but not necessarily with other agencies (such as the IRS) until they also ask for whatever identifying information they deem necessary. Is that right?
talzara
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by talzara »

AAA wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:31 am So as of right now I can go to login.gov and set up an account without having to provide any documentation of my identity. There's an option to log in to Social Security with the login.gov account that I just set up. I assume it will then ask for identifying information and then from that point on I could just use login,gov with Social Security but not necessarily with other agencies (such as the IRS) until they also ask for whatever identifying information they deem necessary. Is that right?
That's right. We don't know yet what kind of identification the IRS will want.
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celia
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by celia »

IRS forcing new Login?

You’re not forced to log in. I’ve never done it and they accept my money and tax returns just fine. I already have way too many online accounts and try to avoid making more.
:beer
stan1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by stan1 »

talzara wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:19 am
AAA wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:31 am So as of right now I can go to login.gov and set up an account without having to provide any documentation of my identity. There's an option to log in to Social Security with the login.gov account that I just set up. I assume it will then ask for identifying information and then from that point on I could just use login,gov with Social Security but not necessarily with other agencies (such as the IRS) until they also ask for whatever identifying information they deem necessary. Is that right?
That's right. We don't know yet what kind of identification the IRS will want.
I just logged in with my existing id.me. I was able to get in with no additional PII requests (just an SMS verification text).

I can't remember what agency I originally used to sign up for id.me -- but it was not the IRS so the IRS accepted my existing credentials.
talzara
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by talzara »

stan1 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:50 pm
talzara wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:19 am
AAA wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:31 am So as of right now I can go to login.gov and set up an account without having to provide any documentation of my identity. There's an option to log in to Social Security with the login.gov account that I just set up. I assume it will then ask for identifying information and then from that point on I could just use login,gov with Social Security but not necessarily with other agencies (such as the IRS) until they also ask for whatever identifying information they deem necessary. Is that right?
That's right. We don't know yet what kind of identification the IRS will want.
I just logged in with my existing id.me. I was able to get in with no additional PII requests (just an SMS verification text).

I can't remember what agency I originally used to sign up for id.me -- but it was not the IRS so the IRS accepted my existing credentials.
ID.me is not login.gov. It's a different login service.
thinair
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by thinair »

I just created an ID.me account. The current process is pretty quick (10 minutes) and required photos of my driver's license and a video of my face. It's probably easier to do this on a phone but I used my computer. The biometric data are deleted within 24 hours, they say.

A quick look at some .gov sites shows that agencies currently differ in their login systems:
IRS allows only ID.me
Social Security allows either login.gov or ID.me or SSA username/password
Trusted Traveler Program (ttp.dhs.gov) allows only login.gov
Medicare has its own login system and uses neither ID.me nor Login.gov

ETA: username/password login for SSA
Last edited by thinair on Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
McDougal
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by McDougal »

thinair wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:30 am I just created an ID.me account. The current process is pretty quick (10 minutes) and required photos of my driver's license and a video of my face. It's probably easier to do this on a phone but I used my computer. The biometric data are deleted within 24 hours, they say.

A quick look at some .gov sites shows that agencies currently differ in their login systems:
IRS allows only ID.me
Social Security allows either login.gov or ID.me
Trusted Traveler Program (ttp.dhs.gov) allows only login.gov
Medicare has its own login system and uses neither ID.me nor Login.gov
For SS, I have the option of either login.gov or ID.me, but I am still able to use username and password to login.
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dual
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by dual »

I am not impressed with ID.me. Once you go through the sign up rigmarole, it’s a typical low-end signin with user ID, password and text message authentication. So far it has worked so I’ll say that for it. They do allow text messages to a Google voice number.

Edit. This is not correct. There is also an authenticator app. Thanks anon_investor
Last edited by dual on Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
thinair
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by thinair »

McDougal wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:04 am For SS, I have the option of either login.gov or ID.me, but I am still able to use username and password to login.
Thanks, I edited my post to add that.
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AAA
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by AAA »

thinair wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:30 am IRS allows only ID.me
I understand there's been a lot of controversy over ID.me. Is it what the IRS is going to be using going forward or is it just something to replace the existing log in process until the ultimate method will be implemented, such as login.gov?
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anon_investor
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by anon_investor »

dual wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:00 am I am not impressed with ID.me. Once you go through the sign up rigmarole, it’s a typical low-end signin with user ID, password and text message authentication. So far it has worked so I’ll say that for it. They do allow text messages to a Google voice number.
You do have the option for an authenticator app.
stan1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by stan1 »

AAA wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:39 pm
thinair wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:30 am IRS allows only ID.me
I understand there's been a lot of controversy over ID.me. Is it what the IRS is going to be using going forward or is it just something to replace the existing log in process until the ultimate method will be implemented, such as login.gov?
There's controversy with login.gov too. It is extensively contracted out to LexisNexis for fraud detection (data aggregator and data broker) who will calculate risk scores and may deny service if they believe your login or credentials are fraudulent. Unclear how that will be remedied if you are falsely accused of fraud by LexisNexis based on incorrect data in their systems. I'm sure the terms of their contract will limit liability.
https://fcw.com/digital-government/2022 ... ns/380159/
single2019
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by single2019 »

single2019 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:09 am
stan1 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:09 pm
Freefun wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:00 pm I continue to see the May 16 warning. Should I create a new account using ID ME or just continue using my old account?
Unless there is something urgent I would wait until the old login actually fails to work.
Old login still works. May 16 warning is gone
Old login stopped working. Now the only option is ID.me
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AAA
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by AAA »

single2019 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:01 pm Old login stopped working. Now the only option is ID.me
And will that be the only method going forward? Is the plan to eventually replace it with login.gov?
Grasshopper
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by Grasshopper »

I use my yubikey for login.gov, I like having 2fa that can't be spoofed.
stan1
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by stan1 »

Grasshopper wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:55 pm I use my yubikey for login.gov, I like having 2fa that can't be spoofed.
While true, I'm more worried about a glitch or problem that causes me to get locked out of my account with no help desk to call who can fix the problem. I'm sure there's some break glass account access restoral process (there would have to be) but I'd want to read about what that is.
PNWpilot
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by PNWpilot »

My goodness. Went to make an estimated tax payment and realized I had to create a log in through ID.me. There's no alternative.

What a terrible, invasive, experience. You will need your driver's license, selfie, phone number, and social security number. :oops:

The process felt more invasive than surgery. All for the privilege of paying the IRS.... :annoyed

Can anyone confirm they delete their "data" within 24 hours?
sc9182
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by sc9182 »

PNWpilot wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:55 am My goodness. Went to make an estimated tax payment and realized I had to create a log in through ID.me. There's no alternative.

What a terrible, invasive, experience. You will need your driver's license, selfie, phone number, and social security number. :oops:

The process felt more invasive than surgery. All for the privilege of paying the IRS.... :annoyed

Can anyone confirm they delete their "data" within 24 hours?
Looks like - at least you were able to complete your id.me login process “online” without further needing friendly video chat!! You missed a bit more fun/pain ..

For estimated payments - i thought there was “guest” mode to go submit (honestly, haven’t tried — it may sucker you into the same id.me login issue!?)

We Hear your (and our) pain !!
Last edited by sc9182 on Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AAA
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Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by AAA »

PNWpilot wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:55 am My goodness. Went to make an estimated tax payment and realized I had to create a log in through ID.me. There's no alternative.
I'm still confused - is ID.me a temporary step until another method is implemented (login.gov?). If so, then for my September estimated tax I would just mail in a check with Form 1040-ES if the situation hasn't changed by then and I have no other reason to log in to my IRS account. But if ID.me is it, then I'd want to get it set up now rather than wait until I need it.
sycamore
Posts: 6360
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by sycamore »

sc9182 wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:06 am
PNWpilot wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:55 am My goodness. Went to make an estimated tax payment and realized I had to create a log in through ID.me. There's no alternative.

What a terrible, invasive, experience. You will need your driver's license, selfie, phone number, and social security number. :oops:

The process felt more invasive than surgery. All for the privilege of paying the IRS.... :annoyed

Can anyone confirm they delete their "data" within 24 hours?
Looks like - at least you were able to complete your id.me login process “online” without further needing friendly chat!! You missed a bit more fun/pain ..

For estimated payments - i thought there was “guest” mode to go submit (honestly, haven’t tried — it may sucker you into the same id.me login issue!?)

We Hear your (and our) pain !!
I've never used it but the IRS has "Direct Pay" at https://www.irs.gov/payments/direct-pay where you can make estimated tax payments.
It prompts you for various pieces of identifying information but it's only with the IRS, not via ID.me.
stan1
Posts: 14246
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: IRS forcing new Login

Post by stan1 »

PNWpilot wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:55 am Can anyone confirm they delete their "data" within 24 hours?
There's no way we could confirm it. I'd wonder what penalty there is in the government contract with id.me if they don't. My guess is there is no financial penalty for failing to do it. And as we learned with Lastpass now we know to ask if the data is deleted from backups or data retained to comply with court orders.
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