College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

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SB1234
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by SB1234 »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
For the same reason every MLB team has a farm system for AAA players. Only junior developers will ever be senior developers.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

SB1234 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:01 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
For the same reason every MLB team has a farm system for AAA players. Only junior developers will ever be senior developers.
Certainly, but I still don't see this is as a convincing argument. Devs are a huge cost centre. The economics of hiring a junior versus using an AI to do low-level code virtually for free are untenable.

If a team needs to hire an intermediate or senior dev they can just hire one from outside. There is a large existing pool of human coding talent that should suffice until AI becomes so capable that we basically only need a handful of specialists and scientists.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
You are being sarcastic, but taken literally what you just wrote is actually 100% accurate. It may even be an understatement.

I just pressed a few keystrokes asking ChatGPT to write me a module for my geotagging project and it did it instantly. The code didn't "grow," it instantaneously appeared. I needed the code modified in a couple ways and it did that too. Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
So why does your employer still have you there ?
Are you sitting around doing nothing collecting a paycheck ?

And from where will future employers hire future senior devs if they are all retired ? Or do you plan to never retire ?
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:32 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
You are being sarcastic, but taken literally what you just wrote is actually 100% accurate. It may even be an understatement.

I just pressed a few keystrokes asking ChatGPT to write me a module for my geotagging project and it did it instantly. The code didn't "grow," it instantaneously appeared. I needed the code modified in a couple ways and it did that too. Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
So why does your employer still have you there ?
Are you sitting around doing nothing collecting a paycheck ?

And from where will future employers hire future senior devs if they are all retired ? Or do you plan to never retire ?
Because I'm not a junior. ChatGPT can't replace me... yet. But it will one day.

The current iteration of developers versus AI is exactly like Garry Kasparov versus Deep Blue. Kasparov just managed to keep Deep Blue at bay in 1996, and lost a close game in the follow up match in 1997. Nowadays the free chess app on your mobile phone is much, much stronger than Deep Blue. The humans are standing still, the machines are sprinting forward every day.

I don't think the question of where senior devs are going to come from is really an issue. That level of granularity and expertise will likely be relegated to a small cadre of specialists in the computer science field, and enterprises will likely just leave it at that.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by SB1234 »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:27 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:01 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
For the same reason every MLB team has a farm system for AAA players. Only junior developers will ever be senior developers.
Certainly, but I still don't see this is as a convincing argument. Devs are a huge cost centre. The economics of hiring a junior versus using an AI to do low-level code virtually for free are untenable.

If a team needs to hire an intermediate or senior dev they can just hire one from outside. There is a large existing pool of human coding talent that should suffice until AI becomes so capable that we basically only need a handful of specialists and scientists.
That is in the realms of possibility given enough time and ChatGPT is very powerful no doubt. But it's utility today is more in increasing programmer productivity and not in replacing the programmer.

Speaking from experience, at least in the last 20 years during which I have been coding no one is writing everything anyways. Lot of useful code is already available for free in libraries, and online on stack overflow etc. Most of the work today is putting together different pieces and fixing whats not working. Programming today is 1% inspiration and 49% perspiration and 50% waiting for the program build.
Chatgpt partially helps with 1% of the effort.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by SconnieBro »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:43 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:32 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
You are being sarcastic, but taken literally what you just wrote is actually 100% accurate. It may even be an understatement.

I just pressed a few keystrokes asking ChatGPT to write me a module for my geotagging project and it did it instantly. The code didn't "grow," it instantaneously appeared. I needed the code modified in a couple ways and it did that too. Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
So why does your employer still have you there ?
Are you sitting around doing nothing collecting a paycheck ?

And from where will future employers hire future senior devs if they are all retired ? Or do you plan to never retire ?
Because I'm not a junior. ChatGPT can't replace me... yet. But it will one day.

The current iteration of developers versus AI is exactly like Garry Kasparov versus Deep Blue. Kasparov just managed to keep Deep Blue at bay in 1996, and lost a close game in the follow up match in 1997. Nowadays the free chess app on your mobile phone is much, much stronger than Deep Blue. The humans are standing still, the machines are sprinting forward every day.

I don't think the question of where senior devs are going to come from is really an issue. That level of granularity and expertise will likely be relegated to a small cadre of specialists in the computer science field, and enterprises will likely just leave it at that.
Where do you work such that all of your time as a developer is straightforward coding? Sounds like a dream. Actual coding is a small percentage of my day.

When chatGPT can sit in meetings with product to refine ambiguous business requirements or move projects forward involving multiple domains with conflicting interests then I’ll start to worry. Until then it’s yet another tool available to us to learn and use to our advantage.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

SconnieBro wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:47 pm Where do you work such that all of your time as a developer is straightforward coding? Sounds like a dream. Actual coding is a small percentage of my day.

When chatGPT can sit in meetings with product to refine ambiguous business requirements or move projects forward involving multiple domains with conflicting interests then I’ll start to worry. Until then it’s yet another tool available to us to learn and use to our advantage.
It's so easy to underestimate the exponential growth of technological progress. Even for tech savvy people.

Suppose you're a single bacterium in a bottle of bacteria that is doubling its population every minute. Further suppose it takes exactly one hour for the bottle to be completely full.

If you were an average bacterium in that bottle, at what time would you first realize you were running of space? At 12:00 noon, it’s full; one minute before, it’s half full; 2 minutes before, it’s a quarter full; then an eighth; then a sixteenth. At 5 minutes before 12:00 the bottle is only 3% full and is 97% open space. Would you have the foresight to realize there’s an imminent problem?

It's 5 minutes before 12:00 in the AI world.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Northern Flicker »

MMiroir wrote: Our high school sends many kids to Purdue for engineering. Generally is is seen as a third tier choice for kids who could not get into the Ivies/MIT/CMU/CT, or more prestigious or more fun Big 10 flagships like UIUC, Michigan and Wisconsin or west coast flagships like UW, UCB and UCLA. That said, a mid 1500 SAT score would easily put him in the top quartile of students at Purdue.
I would rate Purdue CS on par with if not higher than Michigan CS. I would pick Purdue over Harvard or Dartmouth for CS as well.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by exigent »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:40 am I don’t disagree with your general criticism of using an acronym without first defining it, which applies also to fund and ETF tickers. That said, I’m as guilty as the next person (e.g., IANAL, FWIW, IIRC, etc.).
What's an ETF? :twisted:
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by twh »

THIS THREAD HAS RUN ITS COURSE
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

I am not interested in starting a debate on whether there is a future for CS. My question to OP and to an extension, OP's son is this.

Are you limiting yourself and your future by going to an undergraduate degree in CS?

Would an engineering degree open more doors for you? Robotic, drone, biomedical, and so on.

Over the next 20 to 30 years, would you know what you will be working on? What foundational undergraduate degree will help you to go further?

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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by quantAndHold »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:02 pm Folks,

I am not interested in starting a debate on whether there is a future for CS. My question to OP and to an extension, OP's son is this.

Are you limiting yourself and your future by going to an undergraduate degree in CS?

Would an engineering degree open more doors for you? Robotic, drone, biomedical, and so on.

Over the next 20 to 30 years, would you know what you will be working on? What foundational undergraduate degree will help you to go further?

KlangFool
I’ll ask it from another direction. Why would he limit his future career by choosing EE?Everything is done in software now.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by SB1234 »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:11 pm
SconnieBro wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:47 pm Where do you work such that all of your time as a developer is straightforward coding? Sounds like a dream. Actual coding is a small percentage of my day.

When chatGPT can sit in meetings with product to refine ambiguous business requirements or move projects forward involving multiple domains with conflicting interests then I’ll start to worry. Until then it’s yet another tool available to us to learn and use to our advantage.
It's so easy to underestimate the exponential growth of technological progress. Even for tech savvy people.

Suppose you're a single bacterium in a bottle of bacteria that is doubling its population every minute. Further suppose it takes exactly one hour for the bottle to be completely full.

If you were an average bacterium in that bottle, at what time would you first realize you were running of space? At 12:00 noon, it’s full; one minute before, it’s half full; 2 minutes before, it’s a quarter full; then an eighth; then a sixteenth. At 5 minutes before 12:00 the bottle is only 3% full and is 97% open space. Would you have the foresight to realize there’s an imminent problem?

It's 5 minutes before 12:00 in the AI world.
If the singularity comes it's coming for everyone.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

SB1234 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:43 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:11 pm
SconnieBro wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:47 pm Where do you work such that all of your time as a developer is straightforward coding? Sounds like a dream. Actual coding is a small percentage of my day.

When chatGPT can sit in meetings with product to refine ambiguous business requirements or move projects forward involving multiple domains with conflicting interests then I’ll start to worry. Until then it’s yet another tool available to us to learn and use to our advantage.
It's so easy to underestimate the exponential growth of technological progress. Even for tech savvy people.

Suppose you're a single bacterium in a bottle of bacteria that is doubling its population every minute. Further suppose it takes exactly one hour for the bottle to be completely full.

If you were an average bacterium in that bottle, at what time would you first realize you were running of space? At 12:00 noon, it’s full; one minute before, it’s half full; 2 minutes before, it’s a quarter full; then an eighth; then a sixteenth. At 5 minutes before 12:00 the bottle is only 3% full and is 97% open space. Would you have the foresight to realize there’s an imminent problem?

It's 5 minutes before 12:00 in the AI world.
If the singularity comes it's coming for everyone.
Bingo.

Although on its way it will consume some before it consumes others. This circles back to my original contribution way back in this thread. If the OP is looking at schooling for their son, computer science proper likely has a brighter future than software engineering for precisely this line of reasoning.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:43 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:32 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
You are being sarcastic, but taken literally what you just wrote is actually 100% accurate. It may even be an understatement.

I just pressed a few keystrokes asking ChatGPT to write me a module for my geotagging project and it did it instantly. The code didn't "grow," it instantaneously appeared. I needed the code modified in a couple ways and it did that too. Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
So why does your employer still have you there ?
Are you sitting around doing nothing collecting a paycheck ?

And from where will future employers hire future senior devs if they are all retired ? Or do you plan to never retire ?
Because I'm not a junior. ChatGPT can't replace me... yet. But it will one day.

The current iteration of developers versus AI is exactly like Garry Kasparov versus Deep Blue. Kasparov just managed to keep Deep Blue at bay in 1996, and lost a close game in the follow up match in 1997. Nowadays the free chess app on your mobile phone is much, much stronger than Deep Blue. The humans are standing still, the machines are sprinting forward every day.

I don't think the question of where senior devs are going to come from is really an issue. That level of granularity and expertise will likely be relegated to a small cadre of specialists in the computer science field, and enterprises will likely just leave it at that.
Chess is a well defined problem, not comparable to the infinite complexity of software developed across many applications.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:13 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:43 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:32 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
You are being sarcastic, but taken literally what you just wrote is actually 100% accurate. It may even be an understatement.

I just pressed a few keystrokes asking ChatGPT to write me a module for my geotagging project and it did it instantly. The code didn't "grow," it instantaneously appeared. I needed the code modified in a couple ways and it did that too. Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
So why does your employer still have you there ?
Are you sitting around doing nothing collecting a paycheck ?

And from where will future employers hire future senior devs if they are all retired ? Or do you plan to never retire ?
Because I'm not a junior. ChatGPT can't replace me... yet. But it will one day.

The current iteration of developers versus AI is exactly like Garry Kasparov versus Deep Blue. Kasparov just managed to keep Deep Blue at bay in 1996, and lost a close game in the follow up match in 1997. Nowadays the free chess app on your mobile phone is much, much stronger than Deep Blue. The humans are standing still, the machines are sprinting forward every day.

I don't think the question of where senior devs are going to come from is really an issue. That level of granularity and expertise will likely be relegated to a small cadre of specialists in the computer science field, and enterprises will likely just leave it at that.
Chess is a well defined problem, not comparable to the infinite complexity of software developed across many applications.
It’s perfectly comparable.

Funny thing is back in the 90’s Kasparov said the same thing you did about software but about chess as it related to computers. He said that chess at a world class level required a degree of creativity, art, and strategic insight that computers would never replicate. He insisted chess was different from checkers and other games that were simpler. He lost to the improved Deep Blue just a year later.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:41 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:13 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:43 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:32 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm

You are being sarcastic, but taken literally what you just wrote is actually 100% accurate. It may even be an understatement.

I just pressed a few keystrokes asking ChatGPT to write me a module for my geotagging project and it did it instantly. The code didn't "grow," it instantaneously appeared. I needed the code modified in a couple ways and it did that too. Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
So why does your employer still have you there ?
Are you sitting around doing nothing collecting a paycheck ?

And from where will future employers hire future senior devs if they are all retired ? Or do you plan to never retire ?
Because I'm not a junior. ChatGPT can't replace me... yet. But it will one day.

The current iteration of developers versus AI is exactly like Garry Kasparov versus Deep Blue. Kasparov just managed to keep Deep Blue at bay in 1996, and lost a close game in the follow up match in 1997. Nowadays the free chess app on your mobile phone is much, much stronger than Deep Blue. The humans are standing still, the machines are sprinting forward every day.

I don't think the question of where senior devs are going to come from is really an issue. That level of granularity and expertise will likely be relegated to a small cadre of specialists in the computer science field, and enterprises will likely just leave it at that.
Chess is a well defined problem, not comparable to the infinite complexity of software developed across many applications.
It’s perfectly comparable.

Funny thing is back in the 90’s Kasparov said the same thing you did about software but about chess as it related to computers. He said that chess at a world class level required a degree of creativity, art, and strategic insight that computers would never replicate. He insisted chess was different from checkers and other games that were simpler. He lost to the improved Deep Blue just a year later.
Well he was wrong but I am not.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:47 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:41 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:13 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:43 pm
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:32 pm

So why does your employer still have you there ?
Are you sitting around doing nothing collecting a paycheck ?

And from where will future employers hire future senior devs if they are all retired ? Or do you plan to never retire ?
Because I'm not a junior. ChatGPT can't replace me... yet. But it will one day.

The current iteration of developers versus AI is exactly like Garry Kasparov versus Deep Blue. Kasparov just managed to keep Deep Blue at bay in 1996, and lost a close game in the follow up match in 1997. Nowadays the free chess app on your mobile phone is much, much stronger than Deep Blue. The humans are standing still, the machines are sprinting forward every day.

I don't think the question of where senior devs are going to come from is really an issue. That level of granularity and expertise will likely be relegated to a small cadre of specialists in the computer science field, and enterprises will likely just leave it at that.
Chess is a well defined problem, not comparable to the infinite complexity of software developed across many applications.
It’s perfectly comparable.

Funny thing is back in the 90’s Kasparov said the same thing you did about software but about chess as it related to computers. He said that chess at a world class level required a degree of creativity, art, and strategic insight that computers would never replicate. He insisted chess was different from checkers and other games that were simpler. He lost to the improved Deep Blue just a year later.
Well he was wrong but I am not.
Alright well you do you.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Northern Flicker »

Given enough time and storage space, it is mostly straightforward to generate a table of all chess positions with the correct move for each by backward chaining from all positions where the outcome is decided. There is the subtlety of identifying drawn positions where there is no stalemate or mating material, but that can be solved. It is a finite problem space.

On the other hand, no algorithm, AI or otherwise, can determine if an arbitrarily chosen program will terminate when run with some arbitrary input.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:02 pm On the other hand, no algorithm, AI or otherwise, can determine if an arbitrarily chosen program will terminate when run with some arbitrary input.
Check and mate!
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Mudpuppy »

And as mentioned up-thread numerous times, but it bears repeating, CS is about a whole lot more than programming. You want a contact tracing algorithm? That's likely going to be mathematicians and computer scientists collaborating with public health professionals. You want to analyze MRI images to find damaged cells or tumors? Again, computer scientists and engineers collaborating with medical professionals and radiologists. You want to use drone and satellite imagery to determine the extent of wildfire damage, storm damage, ecosystem recovery, and so on? Again, you'll be consulting with computer scientists and engineers.

So to the OP, your son will have many opportunities with a CS degree beyond programming. However, given his interest in 3D printing and circuit development, I would echo the recommendation that he consider electrical or computer engineering (EE or CE). While CS started as a blend of applied mathematics and engineering, it's moved farther away from its engineering roots.

Alternatively, he should look closely at the required and elective courses at both Purdue and Pitt to see which one still retains more of its engineering roots with more coverage of hardware topics like logic circuits, memory layouts, assembly language, computer organization, and so on. He'd have to look at course descriptions, because a lot of CS programs still have "computer architecture" courses, but the contents vary widely. Like in California, community colleges offer "computer architecture", but it's just how to program in assembly. It has little to none of the other topics.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:02 pm Given enough time and storage space, it is mostly straightforward to generate a table of all chess positions with the correct move for each by backward chaining from all positions where the outcome is decided. There is the subtlety of identifying drawn positions where there is no stalemate or mating material, but that can be solved. It is a finite problem space.

On the other hand, no algorithm, AI or otherwise, can determine if an arbitrarily chosen program will terminate when run with some arbitrary input.
If that is in reference to mine and beyou's exchange I think an appropriate way to think of it is this:

Suppose you, a human, are tasked with managing Software Company A. A chimpanzee is tasked with running Software Company B. You are then both tasked with running your respective corporations competitively with each other. You are both given some arbitrary amount of capital to run your business and have no constraint on the decisions you can make to achieve superior market share, maximum profitability, and so on.

Despite the fact that the scenario is not "well defined' in the way chess is, you, as a human, will win every time. Your superior intelligence guarantees this even though you are in a fuzzy state space.

We will be to AI what chimpanzees are currently to us.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:21 pm Despite the fact that the scenario is not "well defined' in the way chess is, you, as a human, will win every time.
Unless everything you know about...well... everything, you learned from watching chimpanzees. :oops:
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Northern Flicker »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:21 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:02 pm Given enough time and storage space, it is mostly straightforward to generate a table of all chess positions with the correct move for each by backward chaining from all positions where the outcome is decided. There is the subtlety of identifying drawn positions where there is no stalemate or mating material, but that can be solved. It is a finite problem space.

On the other hand, no algorithm, AI or otherwise, can determine if an arbitrarily chosen program will terminate when run with some arbitrary input.
If that is in reference to mine and beyou's exchange I think an appropriate way to think of it is this:

Suppose you, a human, are tasked with managing Software Company A. A chimpanzee is tasked with running Software Company B. You are then both tasked with running your respective corporations competitively with each other. You are both given some arbitrary amount of capital to run your business and have no constraint on the decisions you can make to achieve superior market share, maximum profitability, and so on.

Despite the fact that the scenario is not "well defined' in the way chess is, you, as a human, will win every time. Your superior intelligence guarantees this even though you are in a fuzzy state space.

We will be to AI what chimpanzees are currently to us.
It could happen but that does not follow logically from the content your other two paragraphs.
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GRP
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:25 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:21 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:02 pm Given enough time and storage space, it is mostly straightforward to generate a table of all chess positions with the correct move for each by backward chaining from all positions where the outcome is decided. There is the subtlety of identifying drawn positions where there is no stalemate or mating material, but that can be solved. It is a finite problem space.

On the other hand, no algorithm, AI or otherwise, can determine if an arbitrarily chosen program will terminate when run with some arbitrary input.
If that is in reference to mine and beyou's exchange I think an appropriate way to think of it is this:

Suppose you, a human, are tasked with managing Software Company A. A chimpanzee is tasked with running Software Company B. You are then both tasked with running your respective corporations competitively with each other. You are both given some arbitrary amount of capital to run your business and have no constraint on the decisions you can make to achieve superior market share, maximum profitability, and so on.

Despite the fact that the scenario is not "well defined' in the way chess is, you, as a human, will win every time. Your superior intelligence guarantees this even though you are in a fuzzy state space.

We will be to AI what chimpanzees are currently to us.
It could happen but that does not follow logically from the content your other two paragraphs.
Well its intended purpose wasn't to demonstrate a premise and conclusion, but an analogy. As per my exchange with beyou.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by GreendaleCC »

skibummer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:05 am He has been “wired” for CS, embedded engineering since a little guy. Has 2-3 3D printers at home, designs and fabricates stuff (fabricated and designed circuits showing up from a China is not a rare thing at our house).
Does your son know about this printed electronics lab in Purdue’s Polytechnic Institute? (I’m not suggesting giving up his computer science major; it might be something to look into for on-campus opportunities that match his interests.)
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Northern Flicker »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:43 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:25 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:21 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:02 pm Given enough time and storage space, it is mostly straightforward to generate a table of all chess positions with the correct move for each by backward chaining from all positions where the outcome is decided. There is the subtlety of identifying drawn positions where there is no stalemate or mating material, but that can be solved. It is a finite problem space.

On the other hand, no algorithm, AI or otherwise, can determine if an arbitrarily chosen program will terminate when run with some arbitrary input.
If that is in reference to mine and beyou's exchange I think an appropriate way to think of it is this:

Suppose you, a human, are tasked with managing Software Company A. A chimpanzee is tasked with running Software Company B. You are then both tasked with running your respective corporations competitively with each other. You are both given some arbitrary amount of capital to run your business and have no constraint on the decisions you can make to achieve superior market share, maximum profitability, and so on.

Despite the fact that the scenario is not "well defined' in the way chess is, you, as a human, will win every time. Your superior intelligence guarantees this even though you are in a fuzzy state space.

We will be to AI what chimpanzees are currently to us.
It could happen but that does not follow logically from the content your other two paragraphs.
Well its intended purpose wasn't to demonstrate a premise and conclusion, but an analogy. As per my exchange with beyou.
In the absence of supporting evidence from which the conclusion may be drawn, it is as useful of a prediction as saying there will be no market for software engineers because an asteroid will strike the earth.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by oldcomputerguy »

The discussion has gone way off topic from the OP's question (choosing a Computer Science program). Please bring it back on-topic.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by MMiroir »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:42 pm
MMiroir wrote: Our high school sends many kids to Purdue for engineering. Generally is is seen as a third tier choice for kids who could not get into the Ivies/MIT/CMU/CT, or more prestigious or more fun Big 10 flagships like UIUC, Michigan and Wisconsin or west coast flagships like UW, UCB and UCLA. That said, a mid 1500 SAT score would easily put him in the top quartile of students at Purdue.
I would rate Purdue CS on par with if not higher than Michigan CS. I would pick Purdue over Harvard or Dartmouth for CS as well.
It appears actual employers disagree with you. Early career salaries for CS majors from College Scorecard.

Harvard - $163,896
Dartmouth - $128,856
Michigan - $117,745
Purdue - $94,727
BeanieMaker
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by BeanieMaker »

Ok I will chime in on the original issue. I have a child who chose a more “prestigious” school for his major despite not truly feeling it. He liked it but he really loved his other choice but his other choice wasn’t “name brand” - it was in the top 100 privates - chosen school was top 10. He originally thought he could grow to love his school and he tried so hard it almost did him in. He was miserable but didn’t show it to anyone until the end of sophomore year when he came home for break and lost it; couldn’t get out of bed and looked terrible. Finally fessed up that he was truly miserable and felt guilty on top of that. His grades were dropping as was his motivation.
Long story short - he spent a year at home “regrouping” and taking on line gen eds. Transferred to his original first choice and is now an extremely successful but more importantly happy, functional young adult. Had he stayed at his original school I honestly don’t see how he would have come out a happy adult.
Really listen to your kid during these decisions.. it is ultimately their life and happiness and their success in the future will depend on that. It sounds like he has 2 very very solid schools to pick from (better than my sons choices). Earning your degree is a small part of college; learning to “adult” and finding happiness and your true self is a part that I think oftentimes gets lost in todays society of prestige over everything else. Don’t keep up with the joneses - be the Joneses. Plus, listening to your kid and believing in their choices will go far in building your relationship with them as a parent. Forcing one choice over the other for your reasons will build underlying resentment that will be hard to overcome.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by MMiroir »

mcd1427 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:28 am
MMiroir wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:35 am According to College Scorecard, the following are median starting salaries for CS majors at both schools:

Purdue - $94,727
Pitt - $76,432

That is a pretty significant difference. Unless there is some other strong preference for Pitt, Purdue is the obvious choice based on outcomes alone.
Income is not the only factor that makes a choice obvious in education.....

Quality of life matters as well...
Sure, which is why the statement in bold was appended.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by MMiroir »

BeanieMaker wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:40 am Ok I will chime in on the original issue. I have a child who chose a more “prestigious” school for his major despite not truly feeling it. He liked it but he really loved his other choice but his other choice wasn’t “name brand” - it was in the top 100 privates - chosen school was top 10. He originally thought he could grow to love his school and he tried so hard it almost did him in. He was miserable but didn’t show it to anyone until the end of sophomore year when he came home for break and lost it; couldn’t get out of bed and looked terrible. Finally fessed up that he was truly miserable and felt guilty on top of that. His grades were dropping as was his motivation.
Long story short - he spent a year at home “regrouping” and taking on line gen eds. Transferred to his original first choice and is now an extremely successful but more importantly happy, functional young adult. Had he stayed at his original school I honestly don’t see how he would have come out a happy adult.
Really listen to your kid during these decisions.. it is ultimately their life and happiness and their success in the future will depend on that. It sounds like he has 2 very very solid schools to pick from (better than my sons choices). Earning your degree is a small part of college; learning to “adult” and finding happiness and your true self is a part that I think oftentimes gets lost in todays society of prestige over everything else. Don’t keep up with the joneses - be the Joneses. Plus, listening to your kid and believing in their choices will go far in building your relationship with them as a parent. Forcing one choice over the other for your reasons will build underlying resentment that will be hard to overcome.
Thank you for posting this. A similar thing happened to some friends of ours. They were recent immigrants, and the daughter earned a full tuition merit scholarship to a T-20 private which she accepted in anticipation of becoming a doctor. She got embroiled in the social scene at this school, gained weight and got depressed, and dropped out after two years. After taking some time off, she transferred to a local college and became an RN.

I like to look a hard metrics when deciding which schools our kids should apply and matriculate to, but ultimately fit and happiness are the most important factors when picking a school.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

BeanieMaker wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:40 am Ok I will chime in on the original issue. I have a child who chose a more “prestigious” school for his major despite not truly feeling it. He liked it but he really loved his other choice but his other choice wasn’t “name brand” - it was in the top 100 privates - chosen school was top 10. He originally thought he could grow to love his school and he tried so hard it almost did him in. He was miserable but didn’t show it to anyone until the end of sophomore year when he came home for break and lost it; couldn’t get out of bed and looked terrible. Finally fessed up that he was truly miserable and felt guilty on top of that. His grades were dropping as was his motivation.
Long story short - he spent a year at home “regrouping” and taking on line gen eds. Transferred to his original first choice and is now an extremely successful but more importantly happy, functional young adult. Had he stayed at his original school I honestly don’t see how he would have come out a happy adult.
Really listen to your kid during these decisions.. it is ultimately their life and happiness and their success in the future will depend on that. It sounds like he has 2 very very solid schools to pick from (better than my sons choices). Earning your degree is a small part of college; learning to “adult” and finding happiness and your true self is a part that I think oftentimes gets lost in todays society of prestige over everything else. Don’t keep up with the joneses - be the Joneses. Plus, listening to your kid and believing in their choices will go far in building your relationship with them as a parent. Forcing one choice over the other for your reasons will build underlying resentment that will be hard to overcome.
Welcome to the forum! Kudos to you for giving your child the space to regroup. To paraphrase a pop song, “it’s all about the fit.”
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Valuethinker »

BeanieMaker wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:40 am Ok I will chime in on the original issue. I have a child who chose a more “prestigious” school for his major despite not truly feeling it. He liked it but he really loved his other choice but his other choice wasn’t “name brand” - it was in the top 100 privates - chosen school was top 10. He originally thought he could grow to love his school and he tried so hard it almost did him in. He was miserable but didn’t show it to anyone until the end of sophomore year when he came home for break and lost it; couldn’t get out of bed and looked terrible. Finally fessed up that he was truly miserable and felt guilty on top of that. His grades were dropping as was his motivation.
Long story short - he spent a year at home “regrouping” and taking on line gen eds. Transferred to his original first choice and is now an extremely successful but more importantly happy, functional young adult. Had he stayed at his original school I honestly don’t see how he would have come out a happy adult.
Really listen to your kid during these decisions.. it is ultimately their life and happiness and their success in the future will depend on that. It sounds like he has 2 very very solid schools to pick from (better than my sons choices). Earning your degree is a small part of college; learning to “adult” and finding happiness and your true self is a part that I think oftentimes gets lost in todays society of prestige over everything else. Don’t keep up with the joneses - be the Joneses. Plus, listening to your kid and believing in their choices will go far in building your relationship with them as a parent. Forcing one choice over the other for your reasons will build underlying resentment that will be hard to overcome.
This would be my sentiment too. This is the son's first step into the world of "adulting" -- making difficult decisions with complex tradeoffs, none of which will be entirely optimal. And with real pain associated with making the choice and living with it. Gut reactions are important in this - because this is about fit & comfort as much as anything else. As a parent, you can guide, advise, counsel - but there comes a point where you have to butt out.

The problem is if the "best fit" is a college that will leave the student with large debts (or the cost is meaningful to the financial position of the parents). That's a heck of a hole to start working life in - unless you score big and get the job at Google/ Goldman Sachs etc. And note that that latter factor has a lot to do with when you graduate-- so outside of your control (your parents chose your year to be born, without perfect foresight on the job market 22 years later :? :? ).

If the choice is between 2 colleges then it's the right fit for the student.

There's a line that is being quoted here, I can't remember it exactly "the task is not to pick the best college, but the best college for the student".

OP's son has strong & genuine interest in hardware end of Computer Science. To be honest, I would suggest that sounds more like an Electrical Engineering major than CS.

But CS is chosen for other reasons.

So if Pitt is the right fit in terms of campus, city etc then that's what they should do. Even if Purdue may bring specific advantages in terms of career.

I went to a big city university, and I wasn't ready for it, coming from a small private high school w limited opportunities to develop socially-- I was very young for my age. Decades later, my father said "you were too young to go to university, but also too young to work - we didn't quite know what to do". Maybe there would have been a better solution-- but I struggled. And CS was not the right major for me -- I am not mathematically gifted enough.

Inevitable, and no doubt cliched and hoary, but I will quote Kalil Gibran on this (highlights mine):
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself
.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Valuethinker »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm And as mentioned up-thread numerous times, but it bears repeating, CS is about a whole lot more than programming. You want a contact tracing algorithm? That's likely going to be mathematicians and computer scientists collaborating with public health professionals. You want to analyze MRI images to find damaged cells or tumors? Again, computer scientists and engineers collaborating with medical professionals and radiologists. You want to use drone and satellite imagery to determine the extent of wildfire damage, storm damage, ecosystem recovery, and so on? Again, you'll be consulting with computer scientists and engineers.

So to the OP, your son will have many opportunities with a CS degree beyond programming. However, given his interest in 3D printing and circuit development, I would echo the recommendation that he consider electrical or computer engineering (EE or CE). While CS started as a blend of applied mathematics and engineering, it's moved farther away from its engineering roots.

Alternatively, he should look closely at the required and elective courses at both Purdue and Pitt to see which one still retains more of its engineering roots with more coverage of hardware topics like logic circuits, memory layouts, assembly language, computer organization, and so on. He'd have to look at course descriptions, because a lot of CS programs still have "computer architecture" courses, but the contents vary widely. Like in California, community colleges offer "computer architecture", but it's just how to program in assembly. It has little to none of the other topics.
The point about seeking out the best hardware programmes in the degree is salient.

When someone says "hardware" I think EE/ Computer Engineering over CS. But in CS, some courses & degrees are much more hardware oriented.

Getting in with some kind of hardware research programme in undergrad could be really helpful to career & to motivation.

We learned PDP-11 Assembler. Much later in life, I learned a bit about semiconductors, but at a very superficial level.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by stuckinohio »

College professor here; please take the wise words of Valuethinker and BeanieMaker to heart. I am seeing about 20% of my students fail right now, not because they don't have the intellectual ability or academic skills to be successful but because they are academically disengaged. My campus is either not the right fit for them, they don't like the culture, or they are struggling with mental health challenges (side note: all families, please consider having a backup plan for mental health services for your child in place bc many college counseling centers are overwhelmed). Your child is in class 15-20 hours max per week. Both Purdue and Pitt have high-quality academics, but which one will provide the student-life environment that will allow him to truly thrive?
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

oldcomputerguy wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:31 am The discussion has gone way off topic from the OP's question (choosing a Computer Science program). Please bring it back on-topic.
Respectfully, as a parting contribution to the off-topic part of the discussion, I hope it is acceptable to suggest to anyone interested this masterful and insightful piece by Ted Chiang himself in the latest issue of The New Yorker:

ChatGPT Is a Blurry JPEG of the Web

"A lot of uses have been proposed for large language models. Thinking about them as blurry jpegs offers a way to evaluate what they might or might not be well suited for."
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by stoptothink »

stuckinohio wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:23 am I am seeing about 20% of my students fail right now, not because they don't have the intellectual ability or academic skills to be successful but because they are academically disengaged. My campus is either not the right fit for them, they don't like the culture, or they are struggling with mental health challenges
My experience suggests #3 is probably the predominant issue now. I am glad I visited Cornell before accepting admission as it was clear within an hour that it wasn't for me, but I still have zero concerns that I would have thrived academically (and probably found a group I fit in with) regardless. The schools/environments where I did my undergrad, MS, and PhD could not have been more culturally different, but my experience at all three was "fine". I'm only a millenial, but it seems to me that the academia environment and the mental health challenges of young adults is TOTALLY different than when I was deciding where to go to school.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Steve723 »

skibummer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:08 am Our graduating senior son is accepted to Pitt and Purdue for CS. He likes both, but would like some input on the pros and cons of either school within the CS community. Financial costs are essentially the same and not factoring in to the decision. We live in the VA/DC/MD area.
Howdy! My son is currently a CS major at Pitt and he was also in the Honors college! He's in his junior year, but took a break from academics during the spring semester to take a co-op assignment with a pretty big company headquartered in Pittsburgh. They are likely going to keep him on board over the summer too, so he'll get almost 8-months of continuous full time work experience in his field of study, which is way better than a summer internship in my opinion. That is really going to help him when he seeks full-time employment next year.

He really likes Pitt - both the school and the city. He likes the overall experience and it wouldn't surprise my DW and I if he even stayed there upon graduation.

I know Purdue is rated higher, but as others have said, it's far more important that your son finds the right fit for himself. Pitt has a lot to offer if that is ultimately the best fit for him, but only he can decide. Good luck!
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Northern Flicker »

MMiroir wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:31 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:42 pm
MMiroir wrote: Our high school sends many kids to Purdue for engineering. Generally is is seen as a third tier choice for kids who could not get into the Ivies/MIT/CMU/CT, or more prestigious or more fun Big 10 flagships like UIUC, Michigan and Wisconsin or west coast flagships like UW, UCB and UCLA. That said, a mid 1500 SAT score would easily put him in the top quartile of students at Purdue.
I would rate Purdue CS on par with if not higher than Michigan CS. I would pick Purdue over Harvard or Dartmouth for CS as well.
It appears actual employers disagree with you. Early career salaries for CS majors from College Scorecard.

Harvard - $163,896
Dartmouth - $128,856
Michigan - $117,745
Purdue - $94,727
In addition to controlling for differences in the student samples, you have to correct the data for cost of living and commensurate salaries in the locations where each student got a job. Salaries and cost of living are below the national average in Indiana, where more Purdue grads than Harvard grads will choose to live.
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skibummer
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by skibummer »

BeanieMaker wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:40 am Ok I will chime in on the original issue. I have a child who chose a more “prestigious” school for his major despite not truly feeling it. He liked it but he really loved his other choice but his other choice wasn’t “name brand” - it was in the top 100 privates - chosen school was top 10. He originally thought he could grow to love his school and he tried so hard it almost did him in. He was miserable but didn’t show it to anyone until the end of sophomore year when he came home for break and lost it; couldn’t get out of bed and looked terrible. Finally fessed up that he was truly miserable and felt guilty on top of that. His grades were dropping as was his motivation.
Long story short - he spent a year at home “regrouping” and taking on line gen eds. Transferred to his original first choice and is now an extremely successful but more importantly happy, functional young adult. Had he stayed at his original school I honestly don’t see how he would have come out a happy adult.
Really listen to your kid during these decisions.. it is ultimately their life and happiness and their success in the future will depend on that. It sounds like he has 2 very very solid schools to pick from (better than my sons choices). Earning your degree is a small part of college; learning to “adult” and finding happiness and your true self is a part that I think oftentimes gets lost in todays society of prestige over everything else. Don’t keep up with the joneses - be the Joneses. Plus, listening to your kid and believing in their choices will go far in building your relationship with them as a parent. Forcing one choice over the other for your reasons will build underlying resentment that will be hard to overcome.
Thank you and congrats on the great outcome with your son. I’m sure you have given me some of the best advice on this forum. We ultimately want our son to go where HE wants to go and thinks he will fit in best. Always good to hear factual info to help support his decision so all these input and data points have been extremely helpful. Thank you to BeanieMaker, et al.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Mudpuppy »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm So to the OP, your son will have many opportunities with a CS degree beyond programming. However, given his interest in 3D printing and circuit development, I would echo the recommendation that he consider electrical or computer engineering (EE or CE). While CS started as a blend of applied mathematics and engineering, it's moved farther away from its engineering roots.

Alternatively, he should look closely at the required and elective courses at both Purdue and Pitt to see which one still retains more of its engineering roots with more coverage of hardware topics like logic circuits, memory layouts, assembly language, computer organization, and so on. He'd have to look at course descriptions, because a lot of CS programs still have "computer architecture" courses, but the contents vary widely. Like in California, community colleges offer "computer architecture", but it's just how to program in assembly. It has little to none of the other topics.
To clarify what I mean by this, when I was a CS undergraduate, we were required to take the following three hardware courses:
  • Assembly Programming - Learning how to program at the "hardware level", with related topics like memory segments and runtime stacks. Basically, learning how to manually design machine-level code instead of relying on a compiler or interpreter to do it for you from a higher-level programming language. Usually this was taught with Intel and/or MIPS assembly languages.
  • Digital Logic and Circuits - Learning about digital logic gates (and, or, xor, etc.) and how to create digital logic components (flip-flops, muxes, etc.) out of those logic gates. Usually involved both on-paper theory and hands-on breadboarding, like creating an adder circuit.
  • Computer Architecture and Organization - Learning about how digital logic components are tied together to create logic pathways in a CPU. This course focused on a very simple single core processor with one integer and one floating point logic unit (with most of the focus on the integer unit). It was taught from the first part of the Patterson and Hennessy textbook. (Note: there was also an elective course that covered the later part of the Patterson and Hennessy textbook on single core pipelines with multiple integer logic units and also multi-processor / multi-core systems.)
Looking at my undergraduate alma mater now, they've eliminated the digital logic and circuits course from the CS degree (it's still in the CE and EE degrees), and don't seem to have moved the topics to either of the remaining courses. I see the same thing for the undergrad program at my graduate alma mater. ACM curriculum recommendations no longer recommend the digital logic and circuits course, so many CS programs have done away with it, which is a shame for the OP's son, because I think he would love taking such a course.

Looking at Purdue and Pitts course listings online, Pitts seems to have taken the same approach as my alma mater. Pitts has an assembly programming course and a general computer architecture and organization course listed in their course descriptions, but no digital logic course under the CS program (I didn't check engineering, which I'm sure still has the course). Purdue on the other hand looks to be doing a speed-run at hardware, with one course that has most of the topics listed in the course description. I would assume Purdue expects their students to do a lot more independent studying to cover that many topics in one course.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Valuethinker »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:42 pm
MMiroir wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:31 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:42 pm
MMiroir wrote: Our high school sends many kids to Purdue for engineering. Generally is is seen as a third tier choice for kids who could not get into the Ivies/MIT/CMU/CT, or more prestigious or more fun Big 10 flagships like UIUC, Michigan and Wisconsin or west coast flagships like UW, UCB and UCLA. That said, a mid 1500 SAT score would easily put him in the top quartile of students at Purdue.
I would rate Purdue CS on par with if not higher than Michigan CS. I would pick Purdue over Harvard or Dartmouth for CS as well.
It appears actual employers disagree with you. Early career salaries for CS majors from College Scorecard.

Harvard - $163,896
Dartmouth - $128,856
Michigan - $117,745
Purdue - $94,727
In addition to controlling for differences in the student samples, you have to correct the data for cost of living and commensurate salaries in the locations where each student got a job. Salaries and cost of living are below the national average in Indiana, where more Purdue grads than Harvard grads will choose to live.
Here's my guess.

The average CS student at Harvard or Dartmouth is not working a "normal" out of college job in CS.

They are either working for a high-paying employer: for example Goldman Sachs (in computing) or doing a non-computer related job (investment bank trainee, say).

I mean if you are smart enough to do CS at Harvard or Dartmouth, you were smart enough to go to MIT (or Caltech? or CMU?) where the really top software people go?

Michigan too, to some extent.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Valuethinker »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:09 pm
Mudpuppy wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm So to the OP, your son will have many opportunities with a CS degree beyond programming. However, given his interest in 3D printing and circuit development, I would echo the recommendation that he consider electrical or computer engineering (EE or CE). While CS started as a blend of applied mathematics and engineering, it's moved farther away from its engineering roots.

Alternatively, he should look closely at the required and elective courses at both Purdue and Pitt to see which one still retains more of its engineering roots with more coverage of hardware topics like logic circuits, memory layouts, assembly language, computer organization, and so on. He'd have to look at course descriptions, because a lot of CS programs still have "computer architecture" courses, but the contents vary widely. Like in California, community colleges offer "computer architecture", but it's just how to program in assembly. It has little to none of the other topics.
To clarify what I mean by this, when I was a CS undergraduate, we were required to take the following three hardware courses:
  • Assembly Programming - Learning how to program at the "hardware level", with related topics like memory segments and runtime stacks. Basically, learning how to manually design machine-level code instead of relying on a compiler or interpreter to do it for you from a higher-level programming language. Usually this was taught with Intel and/or MIPS assembly languages.
  • Digital Logic and Circuits - Learning about digital logic gates (and, or, xor, etc.) and how to create digital logic components (flip-flops, muxes, etc.) out of those logic gates. Usually involved both on-paper theory and hands-on breadboarding, like creating an adder circuit.
  • Computer Architecture and Organization - Learning about how digital logic components are tied together to create logic pathways in a CPU. This course focused on a very simple single core processor with one integer and one floating point logic unit (with most of the focus on the integer unit). It was taught from the first part of the Patterson and Hennessy textbook. (Note: there was also an elective course that covered the later part of the Patterson and Hennessy textbook on single core pipelines with multiple integer logic units and also multi-processor / multi-core systems.)
Looking at my undergraduate alma mater now, they've eliminated the digital logic and circuits course from the CS degree (it's still in the CE and EE degrees), and don't seem to have moved the topics to either of the remaining courses. I see the same thing for the undergrad program at my graduate alma mater. ACM curriculum recommendations no longer recommend the digital logic and circuits course, so many CS programs have done away with it, which is a shame for the OP's son, because I think he would love taking such a course.

Looking at Purdue and Pitts course listings online, Pitts seems to have taken the same approach as my alma mater. Pitts has an assembly programming course and a general computer architecture and organization course listed in their course descriptions, but no digital logic course under the CS program (I didn't check engineering, which I'm sure still has the course). Purdue on the other hand looks to be doing a speed-run at hardware, with one course that has most of the topics listed in the course description. I would assume Purdue expects their students to do a lot more independent studying to cover that many topics in one course.
For the OP's child I would say Pitt sounds like a better "cultural" fit - big city (albeit very liveable) etc.

The Computer Hardware point would point me towards Purdue. And you'd done some good digging on it. However my impressions of these colleges are 30+ years out of date.

U of Toronto undergrad CS, for example, was good on math & theory, but not on hardware (really about 2 half courses from memory, ie 2 semesters). If you wanted to do hardware you would be in Computer Engineering (Elec Eng or Engineering Science BASc).
Valuethinker
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Valuethinker »

stuckinohio wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:23 am College professor here; please take the wise words of Valuethinker and BeanieMaker to heart. I am seeing about 20% of my students fail right now, not because they don't have the intellectual ability or academic skills to be successful but because they are academically disengaged. My campus is either not the right fit for them, they don't like the culture, or they are struggling with mental health challenges (side note: all families, please consider having a backup plan for mental health services for your child in place bc many college counseling centers are overwhelmed). Your child is in class 15-20 hours max per week. Both Purdue and Pitt have high-quality academics, but which one will provide the student-life environment that will allow him to truly thrive?
Welcome to this Forum and thank you for input that you are among the best able to uniquely provide-- the view from the other side of the lectern.

It is just so important. It's such a difficult stage in life, the beginning of "adulting".

The big dirty secret is that many, many undergrad programmes are the same at different colleges. Same textbooks. Same lecture content.

(Arguably the non-academic differences that colleges stress in their recruitment are less important to the child than they make out. Whereas the cost differential and thus the impact on post university life of very different student loan burdens - is important).

If I lived in the USA and I had the money, I would look for a good 4 year undergrad college for my child. I think those places tend to give greater attention to teaching quality and personal attention to the student. Prestigious names are for grad school (there it really does matter). But that assumes that money doesn't matter, and that's only for a lucky minority of students-- crushing student debt loads close out options.

The right campus. The right location. The right group of friends. That's what gets you through undergrad. Particularly a tough (Arts & Sciences) major like CS. It doesn't have the intensity of Engineering, but it is intense.
twh
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Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:15 pm

Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by twh »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:25 pm
stuckinohio wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:23 am College professor here; please take the wise words of Valuethinker and BeanieMaker to heart. I am seeing about 20% of my students fail right now, not because they don't have the intellectual ability or academic skills to be successful but because they are academically disengaged. My campus is either not the right fit for them, they don't like the culture, or they are struggling with mental health challenges (side note: all families, please consider having a backup plan for mental health services for your child in place bc many college counseling centers are overwhelmed). Your child is in class 15-20 hours max per week. Both Purdue and Pitt have high-quality academics, but which one will provide the student-life environment that will allow him to truly thrive?
Welcome to this Forum and thank you for input that you are among the best able to uniquely provide-- the view from the other side of the lectern.

It is just so important. It's such a difficult stage in life, the beginning of "adulting".

The big dirty secret is that many, many undergrad programmes are the same at different colleges. Same textbooks. Same lecture content.

(Arguably the non-academic differences that colleges stress in their recruitment are less important to the child than they make out. Whereas the cost differential and thus the impact on post university life of very different student loan burdens - is important).

If I lived in the USA and I had the money, I would look for a good 4 year undergrad college for my child. I think those places tend to give greater attention to teaching quality and personal attention to the student. Prestigious names are for grad school (there it really does matter). But that assumes that money doesn't matter, and that's only for a lucky minority of students-- crushing student debt loads close out options.

The right campus. The right location. The right group of friends. That's what gets you through undergrad. Particularly a tough (Arts & Sciences) major like CS. It doesn't have the intensity of Engineering, but it is intense.
The friend set is just so important. It is possible to have a good time AND do well.
psteinx
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by psteinx »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:25 pmThe big dirty secret is that many, many undergrad programmes are the same at different colleges. Same textbooks. Same lecture content.
Most of us would agree that for a kid with the talent to succeed at, say, MIT, the difference between MIT and their local community college or directional state U would be immense. Sure, the course titles, at least for the initial CS sequences, might be similar, and perhaps even some of the textbooks, but the difference in depth and pacing, the assumptions about student capabilities built into assignments, the peer interactions, etc. would be VERY different, and, financial issues aside, few parents would advise the MIT-capable (and admitted) kid to go to community college instead.

But the difference between MIT and Northwestern, and Northwestern vs. Purdue, and Purdue vs. Pitt, and Pitt vs. a regional/local college, etc are a bit harder to define. When does a hill become a mountain?

Few would advise a kid to ALWAYS choose the highest ranked college - there are clearly other factors that matter. But, on the other hand, I think it's wrong to overly minimize differences in academics (and post-college outcomes) to the point of assuming they are ~nil. Yes, you can probably get from Southeast Missouri State to Google. But if I were betting (and, as a parent, to some extent I am), I would bet on MIT or the like, instead...
MMiroir
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by MMiroir »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:50 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:42 pm
MMiroir wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:31 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:42 pm
MMiroir wrote: Our high school sends many kids to Purdue for engineering. Generally is is seen as a third tier choice for kids who could not get into the Ivies/MIT/CMU/CT, or more prestigious or more fun Big 10 flagships like UIUC, Michigan and Wisconsin or west coast flagships like UW, UCB and UCLA. That said, a mid 1500 SAT score would easily put him in the top quartile of students at Purdue.
I would rate Purdue CS on par with if not higher than Michigan CS. I would pick Purdue over Harvard or Dartmouth for CS as well.
It appears actual employers disagree with you. Early career salaries for CS majors from College Scorecard.

Harvard - $163,896
Dartmouth - $128,856
Michigan - $117,745
Purdue - $94,727
In addition to controlling for differences in the student samples, you have to correct the data for cost of living and commensurate salaries in the locations where each student got a job. Salaries and cost of living are below the national average in Indiana, where more Purdue grads than Harvard grads will choose to live.
Here's my guess.

The average CS student at Harvard or Dartmouth is not working a "normal" out of college job in CS.

They are either working for a high-paying employer: for example Goldman Sachs (in computing) or doing a non-computer related job (investment bank trainee, say).

I mean if you are smart enough to do CS at Harvard or Dartmouth, you were smart enough to go to MIT (or Caltech? or CMU?) where the really top software people go?

Michigan too, to some extent.
I posted the following on another thread, but it fits the question above.

1 - The vast majority of CS grads end up working for a non-tech company in a software capacity. This would be like working for a F500 company developing/maintaining their website, or trying to adapt technology to their existing product line. Salaries are healthy, but advancement is limited, bonuses are small and there is minimal equity. The vast majority of CS graduates fall in this camp.

2 - The best CS grads want to work with a tech firm. Not only is the pay better but the jobs are more interesting and there is more possibility of advancement. These grads are the ones that get the FAANG or other tech firm offers, and move to the West Coast and increasingly NYC. The base pay is somewhat higher than non-tech firms, but the equity and salary advancement blows away what the non-tech firms can offer.

3 - The best of the best get FAANG+ offers, but pass them up to work for startups or Fintech firms. Salaries are even higher, but bonuses, advancement and equity are much higher than what FAANG+ offers. The jobs are also more interesting as you are writing up your own code instead of maintaining someone else.

In all likelihood, the difference in salaries between Purdue, Michigan and Dartmouth is that the schools with higher starting salaries place a greater percentage of CS grads with tech companies vs non-tech companies. What drives the extremely high salaries at Harvard, Stanford, MIT and a limited number of other schools are the placements with Fintech and startups that pay for the best candidates from the best schools.

As for where the really top software people go, that is more difficult to say. Despite what you read about top colleges wanting "spikey" kids, applicants still need a strong level of overall competency to be accepted to the top schools so the best coders in high school may not make it to the top CS schools. For instance, the best coder one year in our HS had a number of drug offences on his record which precluded any selective college for him. He ended up attending a local non-selective public, graduated in three years and got a job with Google (good for him!). If the best coders score a 500 on the writing portion of the SAT, or get multiple C's in English, they are not getting into a T-20.

For the best kids with the qualifications to get into top schools, the universities with the highest early career salaries in CS include Berkely, Brown, Caltech, CMU, Harvard, MIT, Penn, Princeton, Stanford and Yale. The order will vary from year to year, but these schools will offer the most opportunities to strong CS candidates.

Oh, the idea that geographical differences drive the different salaries is not well thought out. If Purdue really produced superior CS graduates than Harvard, Dartmouth or Michigan, employers would flock there to hire the better qualified graduates for significantly less pay. The big tech companies all recruit at these schools, and candidates go through the same interview process. If Purdue grads really were better than the rest, you would see that in the placements and thus salaries.
gips
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by gips »

MMiroir wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:08 pm Oh, the idea that geographical differences drive the different salaries is not well thought out. If Purdue really produced superior CS graduates than Harvard, Dartmouth or Michigan, employers would flock there to hire the better qualified graduates for significantly less pay. The big tech companies all recruit at these schools, and candidates go through the same interview process. If Purdue grads really were better than the rest, you would see that in the placements and thus salaries.
you are imagining an efficient market for grads and it's nothing like that. Do you think companies keeps track of how successful their hires are from different schools? I've worked for big tech, consulted for faangs and worked on wall st, I've never heard of a company keeping track of hire success by school. Instead, companies use school brand as a proxy for intelligence and talent and pay going rate. My experience has been this leads to all sorts of market inefficiencies which can be exploited. and yes, we found harvard grads are frequently outperformed by students from other schools.

getting back on topic, OP, we live in the east and in our area, Pitt has the reputation as a great safety school for top performing kids like your son. all of our kids used it as a safety school, they all visited, they all loved the school, the city and would have been happy to attend. Professionally, the silicon valley firms I worked for never hired from Pitt and honestly, I doubt HR/hiring managers had heard of pitt. When I suggested we hire from RPI they asked what the letters RPI stood for. However, Purdue was on the radar on wall st. and silicon valley.

Heading back to the idea of pitt as a safety, we had three safeties, three matches and three reaches for most of our kids. Given your son's stats, I'd think purdue is a match, cmu is a reach for everyone, but I'd guess there are other matches/reaches where he's waiting for a decision?

in any case, congrats to your son, I'm sure he'll be successful whatever the choice!
MMiroir
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by MMiroir »

gips wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:07 pm
MMiroir wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:08 pm Oh, the idea that geographical differences drive the different salaries is not well thought out. If Purdue really produced superior CS graduates than Harvard, Dartmouth or Michigan, employers would flock there to hire the better qualified graduates for significantly less pay. The big tech companies all recruit at these schools, and candidates go through the same interview process. If Purdue grads really were better than the rest, you would see that in the placements and thus salaries.
you are imagining an efficient market for grads and it's nothing like that. Do you think companies keeps track of how successful their hires are from different schools? I've worked for big tech, consulted for faangs and worked on wall st, I've never heard of a company keeping track of hire success by school. Instead, companies use school brand as a proxy for intelligence and talent and pay going rate. My experience has been this leads to all sorts of market inefficiencies which can be exploited. and yes, we found harvard grads are frequently outperformed by students from other schools.
When I worked in corporate consulting, HR kept track of how successful our new graduate hires were over a two year period on a college and GPA basis to the point that the firm had different minimum GPA requirements for each university in our region that students had to hit in order to be offered an interview. I find it hard to believe that FAANGS and similar companies don't keep track of the same thing especially since they are hiring many more graduates and have greater technical resources than the firm I worked for ever had. There is even a whole industry that helps companies measure and improve the success of the hiring process.

https://www.talscale.com/blog/campus-re ... cs-and-roi
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