Avantis ETF Filing Today

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Gaston
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Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Gaston »

Attached is an SEC filing dated today (21 March 2023). Looks like Avantis plans on launching a half dozen new ETFs.

Search for "ticker:" in the attached document to jump to each ETF.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... 212023.htm
Last edited by Gaston on Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gaston
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Gaston »

Thought I'd make it a little easier by copying and pasting the names of the ETFs below:

AVGV - Avantis® All Equity Markets Value ETF
AVDS - Avantis® International Small Cap Equity ETF
AVMG - Avantis® Moderate Allocation ETF
AVTD - Avantis® Total International Markets Equity ETF
AVTV - Avantis® Total International Markets Value ETF
AVLC - Avantis® U.S. Large Cap Equity ETF
Last edited by Gaston on Fri May 05, 2023 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CletusCaddy
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by CletusCaddy »

Wow this is so interesting thank you for sharing

AVGV or AVGE? Let the debate commence!
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Which of these ETFs will make use of factors, and which ones will not?
8000m
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by 8000m »

AVGV (All Markets Value) looks interesting & deviates from the US/ex-US split they use in AVGE.
*AVGV target US 60/ex-US Dev Mkts 30/ EM 10
gtwhitegold
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by gtwhitegold »

Let me know when they release an emerging markets small cap fund.
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

CletusCaddy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:55 pm Wow this is so interesting thank you for sharing

AVGV or AVGE? Let the debate commence!
AVGV = higher expected returns, stronger tilts to Value and exUS. For those with an appetite for higher risk/reward

AVGE = lower expected returns, smaller tilts to value, home country bias (US). For those that want something closer to VT with less potential tracking error
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
muffins14
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by muffins14 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:43 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:55 pm Wow this is so interesting thank you for sharing

AVGV or AVGE? Let the debate commence!
AVGV = higher expected returns, stronger tilts to Value and exUS. For those with an appetite for higher risk/reward

AVGE = lower expected returns, smaller tilts to value, home country bias (US). For those that want something closer to VT with less potential tracking error
AVGV still feels expensive. I’m guessing we could still replicate it with some ratios of VT + AVDV + AVUV for a lower total cost. Perhaps not quiet as valuey, but I’m not sure
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

muffins14 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:43 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:55 pm Wow this is so interesting thank you for sharing

AVGV or AVGE? Let the debate commence!
AVGV = higher expected returns, stronger tilts to Value and exUS. For those with an appetite for higher risk/reward

AVGE = lower expected returns, smaller tilts to value, home country bias (US). For those that want something closer to VT with less potential tracking error
AVGV still feels expensive. I’m guessing we could still replicate it with some ratios of VT + AVDV + AVUV for a lower total cost. Perhaps not quiet as valuey, but I’m not sure
.26% is cheap

I am still using vanguard funds plus the high factor tilted Avantis funds, though. I don’t really want a one fund solution, since it limits TLH options and I prefer to tilt a bit differently and more aggressively
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
Phyneas
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Phyneas »

Avantis® Total International Markets Equity ETF (ticker: AVTD) will be a direct competitor for DFAX at Dimensional, I'm guessing - it even has the same MER of 0.31.

I was going to ask why the new heavy-value-tilted fund (AVTG) is at market cap weights, whereas AVGE isn't (I know that AVGE is a competitor for DGEIX), but I guess with AVTD, investors will be able to set their own market cap weighting in a 2-fund set-up with AVUS (0.21% weighted MER at 60/40).
Last edited by Phyneas on Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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muffins14
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by muffins14 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:18 am
muffins14 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:43 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:55 pm Wow this is so interesting thank you for sharing

AVGV or AVGE? Let the debate commence!
AVGV = higher expected returns, stronger tilts to Value and exUS. For those with an appetite for higher risk/reward

AVGE = lower expected returns, smaller tilts to value, home country bias (US). For those that want something closer to VT with less potential tracking error
AVGV still feels expensive. I’m guessing we could still replicate it with some ratios of VT + AVDV + AVUV for a lower total cost. Perhaps not quiet as valuey, but I’m not sure
.26% is cheap

I am still using vanguard funds plus the high factor tilted Avantis funds, though. I don’t really want a one fund solution, since it limits TLH options and I prefer to tilt a bit differently and more aggressively
What value premium do you assume for planning? 2%, 1%?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
CletusCaddy
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by CletusCaddy »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:54 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:18 am
muffins14 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:43 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:55 pm Wow this is so interesting thank you for sharing

AVGV or AVGE? Let the debate commence!
AVGV = higher expected returns, stronger tilts to Value and exUS. For those with an appetite for higher risk/reward

AVGE = lower expected returns, smaller tilts to value, home country bias (US). For those that want something closer to VT with less potential tracking error
AVGV still feels expensive. I’m guessing we could still replicate it with some ratios of VT + AVDV + AVUV for a lower total cost. Perhaps not quiet as valuey, but I’m not sure
.26% is cheap

I am still using vanguard funds plus the high factor tilted Avantis funds, though. I don’t really want a one fund solution, since it limits TLH options and I prefer to tilt a bit differently and more aggressively
What value premium do you assume for planning? 2%, 1%?
1% over the long run but only if I can be saved from my tendency to tinker, which is why these all in one funds are a godsend
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burritoLover
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by burritoLover »

AVGV (All Markets Value) is probably going to be dominated by LCV I would guess. Would be nice if they include a strong SCV tilt though - 50/50 LCV/SCV would be nice.
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by muffins14 »

CletusCaddy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:04 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:54 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:18 am
muffins14 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:43 pm

AVGV = higher expected returns, stronger tilts to Value and exUS. For those with an appetite for higher risk/reward

AVGE = lower expected returns, smaller tilts to value, home country bias (US). For those that want something closer to VT with less potential tracking error
AVGV still feels expensive. I’m guessing we could still replicate it with some ratios of VT + AVDV + AVUV for a lower total cost. Perhaps not quiet as valuey, but I’m not sure
.26% is cheap

I am still using vanguard funds plus the high factor tilted Avantis funds, though. I don’t really want a one fund solution, since it limits TLH options and I prefer to tilt a bit differently and more aggressively
What value premium do you assume for planning? 2%, 1%?
1% over the long run but only if I can be saved from my tendency to tinker, which is why these all in one funds are a godsend
I feel like a lot of the premium is gobbled up by fees sadly, especially internationally. Maybe 0.3-0.4 value load multiplied by a 1% premium and then a blended fee of 0.3%?

It just gets worse with an Avantis fund of funds rather than a blend of Avantis and market-cap, yeah?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
8000m
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by 8000m »

I read through most of the AVGV filing's fine print in an attempt to better gage how suitable it could be for taxable accounts. Given the fund of funds approach, the component funds & their AVGE FOF track record (albeit very limited), I'm left hoping it will be reasonably simpatico for taxable accounts. Anybody develop a more convicted view on AVGV's taxable acc suitability?
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:54 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:18 am
muffins14 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:52 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:43 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:55 pm Wow this is so interesting thank you for sharing

AVGV or AVGE? Let the debate commence!
AVGV = higher expected returns, stronger tilts to Value and exUS. For those with an appetite for higher risk/reward

AVGE = lower expected returns, smaller tilts to value, home country bias (US). For those that want something closer to VT with less potential tracking error
AVGV still feels expensive. I’m guessing we could still replicate it with some ratios of VT + AVDV + AVUV for a lower total cost. Perhaps not quiet as valuey, but I’m not sure
.26% is cheap

I am still using vanguard funds plus the high factor tilted Avantis funds, though. I don’t really want a one fund solution, since it limits TLH options and I prefer to tilt a bit differently and more aggressively
What value premium do you assume for planning? 2%, 1%?
2% expected

But I plan for no premium at all just to set expectations low, I like the diversification even with no premium
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
muffins14
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by muffins14 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:00 am
2% expected

But I plan for no premium at all just to set expectations low, I like the diversification even with no premium
With no premium, but definite costs of 0.2-0.38%, it seems like you’re paying for a higher-variance asset and hoping for enough not-correlation and rebalancing to be worth the fees?
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drumboy256
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by drumboy256 »

I didn't think AVGE could get any more perfect.... however, AVGV proved me wrong. :sharebeer
Promise is one thing. Fulfilling that promise is quite another. - Sir Alex Ferguson | 20% IVV / 40% IBIT / 20% IXUS / 20% VGLT + chill
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Gaston
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Gaston »

8000m wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:25 am I read through most of the AVGV filing's fine print in an attempt to better gage how suitable it could be for taxable accounts. Given the fund of funds approach, the component funds & their AVGE FOF track record (albeit very limited), I'm left hoping it will be reasonably simpatico for taxable accounts. Anybody develop a more convicted view on AVGV's taxable acc suitability?
If I am reading the filing correctly, AVGV (All Equity Markets Value ETF) looks to be made up of 5 underlying ETFs:

Avantis U.S. Large Cap Value ETF (23%)
Avantis U.S. Small Cap Value ETF (16%)
Avantis International Large Cap Value ETF (47%)
Avantis International Small Cap Value ETF (24%)
Avantis Emerging Markets Value ETF (8%)

The percentages within parentheses reflect the annual portfolio turnover of each ETF, per the Avantis annual report from 31 Aug 2022. For comparison, the annual turnover of Vanguard's VOO and VIOV ETFs are 2% and 36%, respectively.

You will know that higher turnover can translate into higher capital gains, depending on how effective Avantis's ETF structure is in mitigating those gains. Many ETF's are pretty effective as this, but I don't know the detail for Avantis. Can anyone comment further?
“My opinions are just that - opinions.”
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Yesterdaysnews
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Yesterdaysnews »

When will AVGV available?
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:11 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:00 am
2% expected

But I plan for no premium at all just to set expectations low, I like the diversification even with no premium
With no premium, but definite costs of 0.2-0.38%, it seems like you’re paying for a higher-variance asset and hoping for enough not-correlation and rebalancing to be worth the fees?
Yes, at a minimum I expect those benefits to exceed the hurdle rate of additional fees for planning purposes

Of course I would expect it to return much more over the long term
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
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Gaston
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Gaston »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:54 am What value premium do you assume for planning? 2%, 1%?
You probably know that a lot of effort went into cleaning and standardizing the historical data sets that were used, and still continue to be used, for factor analyses. That cleaning process required lots of small, seemingly innocuous decisions, such as whether to measure a company's book value from its last fiscal year, from its most recent quarter, or from a different time period.

Various researchers have shown, however, that if you make ever so slightly different decisions on these "small" points, many of the alleged factor premia disappear. This in no way suggests sloppiness on the part of researchers; it's just a reality of the types of decisions that one must make in standardizing historical data.

For this and a couple other reasons, I am hoping for a mere 0.5% premium on my modest value tilt.
“My opinions are just that - opinions.”
muffins14
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by muffins14 »

Gaston wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:36 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:54 am What value premium do you assume for planning? 2%, 1%?
You probably know that a lot of effort went into cleaning and standardizing the historical data sets that were used, and still continue to be used, for factor analyses. That cleaning process required lots of small, seemingly innocuous decisions, such as whether to measure a company's book value from its last fiscal year, from its most recent quarter, or from a different time period.

Various researchers have shown, however, that if you make ever so slightly different decisions on these "small" points, many of the alleged factor premia disappear. This in no way suggests sloppiness on the part of researchers; it's just a reality of the types of decisions that one must make in standardizing historical data.

For this and a couple other reasons, I am hoping for a mere 0.5% premium on my modest value tilt.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3886984

That’s one example paper of what you allude to. I think it’s a bit much to consider all of the 96 “other-definition” value portfolios to be equally reasonable. Even when doing so, my takeaway is that the value premium could be estimated as 75% as large as the original estimate, when looking at the full dataset.
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impatientInv
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by impatientInv »

Gaston wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:40 pm Thought I'd make it a little easier by copying and pasting the names of the ETFs below:

Avantis® All Equity Markets Value ETF AVGV
Avantis® International Small Cap Equity ETF AVDS
Avantis® Moderate Allocation ETF AVMG
Avantis® Total International Markets Equity ETF AVTD
Avantis® Total International Markets Value ETF AVTV
Avantis® U.S. Large Cap Equity ETF AVLC
Total International Markets Equity ETF AVTD seems to be similar to dimensional DFAX ETF. Till now Avantis didn't have a single total ex-US ETF. expense ratio is 0.31% vs 0.3% for DFAX.

Any expected benefits of using AVTD vs DFAX?

One problem with DFAX is small NAV - $22.6. So that adds to trading costs when buying the ETF. Am I correct? DFAX will have a tax loss harvesting partner..
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Gaston
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Gaston »

muffins14 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:03 am That’s one example paper of what you allude to. I think it’s a bit much to consider all of the 96 “other-definition” value portfolios to be equally reasonable. Even when doing so, my takeaway is that the value premium could be estimated as 75% as large as the original estimate, when looking at the full dataset.
Thank you. I hope you are correct.
“My opinions are just that - opinions.”
tj
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by tj »

Gaston wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:09 pm
8000m wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:25 am I read through most of the AVGV filing's fine print in an attempt to better gage how suitable it could be for taxable accounts. Given the fund of funds approach, the component funds & their AVGE FOF track record (albeit very limited), I'm left hoping it will be reasonably simpatico for taxable accounts. Anybody develop a more convicted view on AVGV's taxable acc suitability?
If I am reading the filing correctly, AVGV (All Equity Markets Value ETF) looks to be made up of 5 underlying ETFs:

Avantis U.S. Large Cap Value ETF (23%)
Avantis U.S. Small Cap Value ETF (16%)
Avantis International Large Cap Value ETF (47%)
Avantis International Small Cap Value ETF (24%)
Avantis Emerging Markets Value ETF (8%)

The percentages within parentheses reflect the annual portfolio turnover of each ETF, per the Avantis annual report from 31 Aug 2022. For comparison, the annual turnover of Vanguard's VOO and VIOV ETFs are 2% and 36%, respectively.

You will know that higher turnover can translate into higher capital gains, depending on how effective Avantis's ETF structure is in mitigating those gains. Many ETF's are pretty effective as this, but I don't know the detail for Avantis. Can anyone comment further?
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
Apathizer
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Apathizer »

tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm
Gaston wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:09 pm
8000m wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:25 am I read through most of the AVGV filing's fine print in an attempt to better gage how suitable it could be for taxable accounts. Given the fund of funds approach, the component funds & their AVGE FOF track record (albeit very limited), I'm left hoping it will be reasonably simpatico for taxable accounts. Anybody develop a more convicted view on AVGV's taxable acc suitability?
If I am reading the filing correctly, AVGV (All Equity Markets Value ETF) looks to be made up of 5 underlying ETFs:

Avantis U.S. Large Cap Value ETF (23%)
Avantis U.S. Small Cap Value ETF (16%)
Avantis International Large Cap Value ETF (47%)
Avantis International Small Cap Value ETF (24%)
Avantis Emerging Markets Value ETF (8%)

The percentages within parentheses reflect the annual portfolio turnover of each ETF, per the Avantis annual report from 31 Aug 2022. For comparison, the annual turnover of Vanguard's VOO and VIOV ETFs are 2% and 36%, respectively.

You will know that higher turnover can translate into higher capital gains, depending on how effective Avantis's ETF structure is in mitigating those gains. Many ETF's are pretty effective as this, but I don't know the detail for Avantis. Can anyone comment further?
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
ROTH: 50% AVGE, 10% DFAX, 40% BNDW. Taxable: 50% BNDW, 40% AVGE, 10% DFAX.
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm
Gaston wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:09 pm
8000m wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:25 am I read through most of the AVGV filing's fine print in an attempt to better gage how suitable it could be for taxable accounts. Given the fund of funds approach, the component funds & their AVGE FOF track record (albeit very limited), I'm left hoping it will be reasonably simpatico for taxable accounts. Anybody develop a more convicted view on AVGV's taxable acc suitability?
If I am reading the filing correctly, AVGV (All Equity Markets Value ETF) looks to be made up of 5 underlying ETFs:

Avantis U.S. Large Cap Value ETF (23%)
Avantis U.S. Small Cap Value ETF (16%)
Avantis International Large Cap Value ETF (47%)
Avantis International Small Cap Value ETF (24%)
Avantis Emerging Markets Value ETF (8%)

The percentages within parentheses reflect the annual portfolio turnover of each ETF, per the Avantis annual report from 31 Aug 2022. For comparison, the annual turnover of Vanguard's VOO and VIOV ETFs are 2% and 36%, respectively.

You will know that higher turnover can translate into higher capital gains, depending on how effective Avantis's ETF structure is in mitigating those gains. Many ETF's are pretty effective as this, but I don't know the detail for Avantis. Can anyone comment further?
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
geo99
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by geo99 »

Seems like an awful lot of Avantis funds to choose from. Does a company with this amount of assets usually have so many funds?

As for what’s new, AVGV is closer to what I want than AVGE but still prefer my current mix of:

AVUS 30%
AVUV 25%
AVDE 20%
AVDV 15%
AVEM 10%
tj
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by tj »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm
Gaston wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:09 pm
8000m wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:25 am I read through most of the AVGV filing's fine print in an attempt to better gage how suitable it could be for taxable accounts. Given the fund of funds approach, the component funds & their AVGE FOF track record (albeit very limited), I'm left hoping it will be reasonably simpatico for taxable accounts. Anybody develop a more convicted view on AVGV's taxable acc suitability?
If I am reading the filing correctly, AVGV (All Equity Markets Value ETF) looks to be made up of 5 underlying ETFs:

Avantis U.S. Large Cap Value ETF (23%)
Avantis U.S. Small Cap Value ETF (16%)
Avantis International Large Cap Value ETF (47%)
Avantis International Small Cap Value ETF (24%)
Avantis Emerging Markets Value ETF (8%)

The percentages within parentheses reflect the annual portfolio turnover of each ETF, per the Avantis annual report from 31 Aug 2022. For comparison, the annual turnover of Vanguard's VOO and VIOV ETFs are 2% and 36%, respectively.

You will know that higher turnover can translate into higher capital gains, depending on how effective Avantis's ETF structure is in mitigating those gains. Many ETF's are pretty effective as this, but I don't know the detail for Avantis. Can anyone comment further?
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
AVGV does not seem to be a higher "value tilt" though, it's exclusively value holdings.
LeoB
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by LeoB »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
I think the posters above have it right collectively. Most would probably use AVGV in either one of two ways.

(1) Mix with market-cap weighted index funds to desired value tilt. For example: 30% VTI, 20% VXUS, 50% AVGV. This could provide similar factor exposure to AVGE, but it would be an easier transition for someone with large unrealized gains in their taxable Vanguard funds.

(2) 100% AVGV for a higher value allocation than AVGE provides. I personally wouldn’t do this, but a vocal minority seems to be really enthusiastic here.
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:30 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm
Gaston wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:09 pm
If I am reading the filing correctly, AVGV (All Equity Markets Value ETF) looks to be made up of 5 underlying ETFs:

Avantis U.S. Large Cap Value ETF (23%)
Avantis U.S. Small Cap Value ETF (16%)
Avantis International Large Cap Value ETF (47%)
Avantis International Small Cap Value ETF (24%)
Avantis Emerging Markets Value ETF (8%)

The percentages within parentheses reflect the annual portfolio turnover of each ETF, per the Avantis annual report from 31 Aug 2022. For comparison, the annual turnover of Vanguard's VOO and VIOV ETFs are 2% and 36%, respectively.

You will know that higher turnover can translate into higher capital gains, depending on how effective Avantis's ETF structure is in mitigating those gains. Many ETF's are pretty effective as this, but I don't know the detail for Avantis. Can anyone comment further?
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
AVGV does not seem to be a higher "value tilt" though, it's exclusively value holdings.
Sure it does. By definition, it is exclusively Value and has higher value loadings, therefore it has a higher Value tilt since ALL of Avantis funds implement Value at some level of their screening process.
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

geo99 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:20 pm Seems like an awful lot of Avantis funds to choose from. Does a company with this amount of assets usually have so many funds?

As for what’s new, AVGV is closer to what I want than AVGE but still prefer my current mix of:

AVUS 30%
AVUV 25%
AVDE 20%
AVDV 15%
AVEM 10%
It's easy enough to implement fund-of-fund solutions for clients of various tastes, so why not? People like a one fund solution, but a one fund solution may not fit all tastes - so you have multiple ones out there.

Nothing wrong with just holding the underlying ones and having a 5 fund or so portfolio mix - that's what I prefer since it allows for unique TLH opportunities.
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
tj
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by tj »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:34 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:30 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm

Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
AVGV does not seem to be a higher "value tilt" though, it's exclusively value holdings.
Sure it does. By definition, it is exclusively Value and has higher value loadings, therefore it has a higher Value tilt since ALL of Avantis funds implement Value at some level of their screening process.
For it to be a "tilt", it seems like it shouldn't be exclusively value.
Nathan Drake
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:39 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:34 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:30 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
AVGV does not seem to be a higher "value tilt" though, it's exclusively value holdings.
Sure it does. By definition, it is exclusively Value and has higher value loadings, therefore it has a higher Value tilt since ALL of Avantis funds implement Value at some level of their screening process.
For it to be a "tilt", it seems like it shouldn't be exclusively value.
Value has varying degrees of loadings. Not everything called "Value" is the same. ALL of Avantis funds have Value even if their name doesn't explicitly state it's a Value fund.

Even being 100% Value is a tilt because you are already mostly exposed to market beta. To be pure Value, you'd have to go long/short.
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
Apathizer
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Apathizer »

LeoB wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:34 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
I think the posters above have it right collectively. Most would probably use AVGV in either one of two ways.

(1) Mix with market-cap weighted index funds to desired value tilt. For example: 30% VTI, 20% VXUS, 50% AVGV. This could provide similar factor exposure to AVGE, but it would be an easier transition for someone with large unrealized gains in their taxable Vanguard funds.

(2) 100% AVGV for a higher value allocation than AVGE provides. I personally wouldn’t do this, but a vocal minority seems to be really enthusiastic here.
I agree. I think the 2nd option might only appeal to investors who don't plan to use the money for at least a decade willing to take significant risk. That's not me. I'm content with the more moderate tilt of AVGE.
Last edited by Apathizer on Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ROTH: 50% AVGE, 10% DFAX, 40% BNDW. Taxable: 50% BNDW, 40% AVGE, 10% DFAX.
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6228
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:32 pm
LeoB wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:34 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
tj wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:55 pm
Why would AVGV on its own with those 5 funds be appealing to people? Would this be used in combo with something like VT? It's missing big segments, right? AVGE seems like a more diversified single holding?
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
I think the posters above have it right collectively. Most would probably use AVGV in either one of two ways.

(1) Mix with market-cap weighted index funds to desired value tilt. For example: 30% VTI, 20% VXUS, 50% AVGV. This could provide similar factor exposure to AVGE, but it would be an easier transition for someone with large unrealized gains in their taxable Vanguard funds.

(2) 100% AVGV for a higher value allocation than AVGE provides. I personally wouldn’t do this, but a vocal minority seems to be really enthusiastic here.
I agree. I think the 2nd option might only appeal to investors who don't plan to use the money for at least a decade willing to take significant risk. That's not me. I'm content with the more moderate of AVGE.
You shouldn’t be investing in stocks at all unless you largely plan to hold for a decade and not completely sell off the entirety of the holding

A portfolio tilted more to value tends to have less start date sensitivity as well
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
impatientInv
Posts: 349
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by impatientInv »

VT 50% AVGV 50% - different combinations of this is interesting.

Also useful for others who have too much in SP500 due to various reasons.
No individual stocks.
Apathizer
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Apathizer »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:42 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:32 pm
LeoB wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:34 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:23 pm
I tend to agree. While I'm convinced factors provide beneficial diversification, AVGV seems like too much of a good thing. Overall AVGE seems like a better single-fund equity option. I wish it had a little more ex-US allocation, but that's not a deal breaker.

At this point I just need to ignore my portfolio until late June when dividends are issued.
It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
I think the posters above have it right collectively. Most would probably use AVGV in either one of two ways.

(1) Mix with market-cap weighted index funds to desired value tilt. For example: 30% VTI, 20% VXUS, 50% AVGV. This could provide similar factor exposure to AVGE, but it would be an easier transition for someone with large unrealized gains in their taxable Vanguard funds.

(2) 100% AVGV for a higher value allocation than AVGE provides. I personally wouldn’t do this, but a vocal minority seems to be really enthusiastic here.
I agree. I think the 2nd option might only appeal to investors who don't plan to use the money for at least a decade willing to take significant risk. That's not me. I'm content with the more moderate of AVGE.
You shouldn’t be investing in stocks at all unless you largely plan to hold for a decade and not completely sell off the entirety of the holding

A portfolio tilted more to value tends to have less start date sensitivity as well
But a portfolio that heavily value tilted will likely be highly volatile and has more short-term under-performance risk. That's not appealing for many investors.
ROTH: 50% AVGE, 10% DFAX, 40% BNDW. Taxable: 50% BNDW, 40% AVGE, 10% DFAX.
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6228
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:06 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:42 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:32 pm
LeoB wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:34 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm

It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
I think the posters above have it right collectively. Most would probably use AVGV in either one of two ways.

(1) Mix with market-cap weighted index funds to desired value tilt. For example: 30% VTI, 20% VXUS, 50% AVGV. This could provide similar factor exposure to AVGE, but it would be an easier transition for someone with large unrealized gains in their taxable Vanguard funds.

(2) 100% AVGV for a higher value allocation than AVGE provides. I personally wouldn’t do this, but a vocal minority seems to be really enthusiastic here.
I agree. I think the 2nd option might only appeal to investors who don't plan to use the money for at least a decade willing to take significant risk. That's not me. I'm content with the more moderate of AVGE.
You shouldn’t be investing in stocks at all unless you largely plan to hold for a decade and not completely sell off the entirety of the holding

A portfolio tilted more to value tends to have less start date sensitivity as well
But a portfolio that heavily value tilted will likely be highly volatile and has more short-term under-performance risk. That's not appealing for many investors.
Precisely, there’s not a one size fits all solution, AVGE may be more preferable to some but it comes with its own drawbacks if you want more value or exUS
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
Morse Code
Posts: 374
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Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Morse Code »

Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:06 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:42 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:32 pm
LeoB wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:34 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:10 pm

It’s for those that want a single equity solution with higher value tilts and higher exUS exposure for higher expected returns
I think the posters above have it right collectively. Most would probably use AVGV in either one of two ways.

(1) Mix with market-cap weighted index funds to desired value tilt. For example: 30% VTI, 20% VXUS, 50% AVGV. This could provide similar factor exposure to AVGE, but it would be an easier transition for someone with large unrealized gains in their taxable Vanguard funds.

(2) 100% AVGV for a higher value allocation than AVGE provides. I personally wouldn’t do this, but a vocal minority seems to be really enthusiastic here.
I agree. I think the 2nd option might only appeal to investors who don't plan to use the money for at least a decade willing to take significant risk. That's not me. I'm content with the more moderate of AVGE.
You shouldn’t be investing in stocks at all unless you largely plan to hold for a decade and not completely sell off the entirety of the holding

A portfolio tilted more to value tends to have less start date sensitivity as well
But a portfolio that heavily value tilted will likely be highly volatile and has more short-term under-performance risk. That's not appealing for many investors.
It's basically a Larry Light, which is great for me. Allows me to have two-funds, only having to rebalance between fixed income and equity. Makes the Boglehead three-fund portfolio seem downright complex, 😁
Livin' the dream
Apathizer
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Apathizer »

Morse Code wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:15 am
Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:06 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:42 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:32 pm
LeoB wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:34 pm

I think the posters above have it right collectively. Most would probably use AVGV in either one of two ways.

(1) Mix with market-cap weighted index funds to desired value tilt. For example: 30% VTI, 20% VXUS, 50% AVGV. This could provide similar factor exposure to AVGE, but it would be an easier transition for someone with large unrealized gains in their taxable Vanguard funds.

(2) 100% AVGV for a higher value allocation than AVGE provides. I personally wouldn’t do this, but a vocal minority seems to be really enthusiastic here.
I agree. I think the 2nd option might only appeal to investors who don't plan to use the money for at least a decade willing to take significant risk. That's not me. I'm content with the more moderate of AVGE.
You shouldn’t be investing in stocks at all unless you largely plan to hold for a decade and not completely sell off the entirety of the holding

A portfolio tilted more to value tends to have less start date sensitivity as well
But a portfolio that heavily value tilted will likely be highly volatile and has more short-term under-performance risk. That's not appealing for many investors.
It's basically a Larry Light, which is great for me. Allows me to have two-funds, only having to rebalance between fixed income and equity. Makes the Boglehead three-fund portfolio seem downright complex, 😁
Yes, to me that's also appealing. Of course you can use AVGV for the same purpose, but for investors who are in the withdrawal stage it might be too risky. AVGE seems like a more balanced approach.
ROTH: 50% AVGE, 10% DFAX, 40% BNDW. Taxable: 50% BNDW, 40% AVGE, 10% DFAX.
Nathan Drake
Posts: 6228
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Nathan Drake »

Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:37 pm
Morse Code wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:15 am
Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:06 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:42 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:32 pm
I agree. I think the 2nd option might only appeal to investors who don't plan to use the money for at least a decade willing to take significant risk. That's not me. I'm content with the more moderate of AVGE.
You shouldn’t be investing in stocks at all unless you largely plan to hold for a decade and not completely sell off the entirety of the holding

A portfolio tilted more to value tends to have less start date sensitivity as well
But a portfolio that heavily value tilted will likely be highly volatile and has more short-term under-performance risk. That's not appealing for many investors.
It's basically a Larry Light, which is great for me. Allows me to have two-funds, only having to rebalance between fixed income and equity. Makes the Boglehead three-fund portfolio seem downright complex, 😁
Yes, to me that's also appealing. Of course you can use AVGV for the same purpose, but for investors who are in the withdrawal stage it might be too risky. AVGE seems like a more balanced approach.
An AVGV like equity exposure would have had less start date sensitivity and supported higher SWR than AVGE historically. Sometimes it pays to have highly diversified risk during your withdrawal stage, especially if constructed like the Larry portfolio with significant bond exposure.
20% VOO | 20% VXUS | 20% AVUV | 20% AVDV | 20% AVES
JSPECO9
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by JSPECO9 »

Avantis just continues to get better and better. They are going to seriously give Vanguard and DFA a run for their money.
Apathizer
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:56 pm

Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Apathizer »

JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:51 pm Avantis just continues to get better and better. They are going to seriously give Vanguard and DFA a run for their money.
Although so many options is a little intimidating. It also makes me understand even more why someone would prefer one simple automatic re-balancing fund.
ROTH: 50% AVGE, 10% DFAX, 40% BNDW. Taxable: 50% BNDW, 40% AVGE, 10% DFAX.
JSPECO9
Posts: 457
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by JSPECO9 »

Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:45 pm
JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:51 pm Avantis just continues to get better and better. They are going to seriously give Vanguard and DFA a run for their money.
Although so many options is a little intimidating. It also makes me understand even more why someone would prefer one simple automatic re-balancing fund.
That Avantis® Moderate Allocation ETF looks REALLY appealing as a one-fund-for-life. The all markets value fund also looks great as a one fund for the equity portion of a portfolio.
Tom_T
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Tom_T »

JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:23 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:45 pm
JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:51 pm Avantis just continues to get better and better. They are going to seriously give Vanguard and DFA a run for their money.
Although so many options is a little intimidating. It also makes me understand even more why someone would prefer one simple automatic re-balancing fund.
That Avantis® Moderate Allocation ETF looks REALLY appealing as a one-fund-for-life. The all markets value fund also looks great as a one fund for the equity portion of a portfolio.
The Moderate one may be a little too light on international for some. 47% U.S., 18% international, 33% fixed, 2% REIT. But if you're someone who thinks Vanguard has gone a little too heavy on international in their Target funds, this one might hit the spot.
Apathizer
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by Apathizer »

JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:23 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:45 pm
JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:51 pm Avantis just continues to get better and better. They are going to seriously give Vanguard and DFA a run for their money.
Although so many options is a little intimidating. It also makes me understand even more why someone would prefer one simple automatic re-balancing fund.
That Avantis® Moderate Allocation ETF looks REALLY appealing as a one-fund-for-life. The all markets value fund also looks great as a one fund for the equity portion of a portfolio.
That wouldn't be diverse enough for me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Avantis bond funds are all US with more corporate bond allocation than a total bond fund. I'd rather just go with AVGE and BNDW to be thoroughly diversified.
ROTH: 50% AVGE, 10% DFAX, 40% BNDW. Taxable: 50% BNDW, 40% AVGE, 10% DFAX.
sycamore
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by sycamore »

Tom_T wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:30 pm
JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:23 pm
Apathizer wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:45 pm
JSPECO9 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:51 pm Avantis just continues to get better and better. They are going to seriously give Vanguard and DFA a run for their money.
Although so many options is a little intimidating. It also makes me understand even more why someone would prefer one simple automatic re-balancing fund.
That Avantis® Moderate Allocation ETF looks REALLY appealing as a one-fund-for-life. The all markets value fund also looks great as a one fund for the equity portion of a portfolio.
The Moderate one may be a little too light on international for some. 47% U.S., 18% international, 33% fixed, 2% REIT. But if you're someone who thinks Vanguard has gone a little too heavy on international in their Target funds, this one might hit the spot.
+1. Based on the target %, it's ~70/30 US/Intl for stocks.

The SEC document also gives ranges for each stock sub class: 40-60 for US, 7-20 for Intl Developed, 3-10 for EM.

So there's room for the US/Intl ratio to float quite a bit. It'll be interesting to see how the fund managers adjust the US/Intl allocation over time. I would assume 70/30 +/- a few percentage points like +/- 5, and not +/- 10.
geo99
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Re: Avantis ETF Filing Today

Post by geo99 »

When are these expected to be available?
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