Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Here's an idea not yet mentioned.
Go back to school. Get a master's degree, for example. Or just take courses. This could be to retrain or to enhance your knowledge of your current or a related field.
One beauty of this approach is that you can take off a lot of time before starting, and even after completing the degree. It all folds into the school time on your resume.
You can afford it and if you can go for certain degrees, depending on your background, you could get an assistantship or other funding.
Going back to school is a great way to change careers, change direction, leave a crappy job, etc.
Go back to school. Get a master's degree, for example. Or just take courses. This could be to retrain or to enhance your knowledge of your current or a related field.
One beauty of this approach is that you can take off a lot of time before starting, and even after completing the degree. It all folds into the school time on your resume.
You can afford it and if you can go for certain degrees, depending on your background, you could get an assistantship or other funding.
Going back to school is a great way to change careers, change direction, leave a crappy job, etc.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
All of that is in a single stock. I'm guessing the ticker may be TSLA.
edit: yup, this from the user's post history:
So not just TSLA but TSLA calls.Tesla is an amazing company. Options are no for everyone like my parents probably at this time but during the accumulation phase putting a small percentage on derivatives can do wonders for your portfolio. For instance my IRA had total contributions of $11k but today's balance even after this horrible market is $280k.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
You have 1.75 mil but only $270,000 (taxable account) plus the contribution portion of Roths are available to you. IRA withdrawals would be penalized until you reach age 59 1/2 and you can't withdraw from 401Ks until age 55. Doesn't that change the calculations quite a bit?
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Not at 38 & 39. 4% SWR just says it didn't crash for a 30-year retirement horizon. Yours is likely longer than that.
Instead of retiring, you should look for a different job.
- DeliberateDonkey
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Probably time to quit, but not retire. Just make sure you have a plan for health insurance.
You can, of course, refuse the change in your working situation, and I would encourage you to do so if you don't expect the potential fallout to impact your future job prospects. I understand where you're coming from. Different people thrive in different situations. Some people respect that, others don't. It's clear that management has not thought this through, but unfortunately workers are not entitled to sensible management.
If you are not the insurance-provider for your family (or need not be), then perhaps look at part-time or contract options that fit your preferences, which are likely easier to come by than a full-time/direct remote position. This could give you the headspace you need to plot out the back half of your career.
You can, of course, refuse the change in your working situation, and I would encourage you to do so if you don't expect the potential fallout to impact your future job prospects. I understand where you're coming from. Different people thrive in different situations. Some people respect that, others don't. It's clear that management has not thought this through, but unfortunately workers are not entitled to sensible management.
If you are not the insurance-provider for your family (or need not be), then perhaps look at part-time or contract options that fit your preferences, which are likely easier to come by than a full-time/direct remote position. This could give you the headspace you need to plot out the back half of your career.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Similar situation, age, net worth. Planning on quitting and taking some time reset before starting a new gig. You have a lot of options but I don’t believe permanent retirement is one.
- whodidntante
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
You are 38. You need a better job. If you retire, you might start to waste your time with pointless busy work like pickleball and buying your way onto the board of a non-profit where you attend meetings where you argue over how to spend the money you donated. Even worse, you might start to brag about your rusted-out [unnecessary comment removed by moderator oldcomputerguy] car with an interior that consists primarily of ground dirt and mildew. Which works fine because you can't really afford to go anywhere often.
- AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
A different perspective: since as you say everything changed in the last two weeks, resolve to stick it out for a month or two more at least while setting boundaries and looking for a better position internally and externally. Maybe the company is positioning itself for sale and the new owners would be more to your liking or give you other stock incentives. At least wait until you can exercise your RSUs.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
1. Get that single stock diversified into a us or global index fund/etf
2. Look for a new job
3. Say no to any nonsense from your employer. Just continue to work from home and if they fire you so be it. You are going to leave anyway, so why make your life worse?
2. Look for a new job
3. Say no to any nonsense from your employer. Just continue to work from home and if they fire you so be it. You are going to leave anyway, so why make your life worse?
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
No. It has some very crude utility to see if you have "enough", but know that it assumes a 30 year retirement. You've likely got significantly more years ahead of you than that.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Been there, done that with employers. Large layoff without some sort of major company restructuring to go with it has always meant for me that this is a last gasp before the inevitable. Oftentimes when that happens, the exit packages given in the second (or third) round of layoffs is less generous than it was for the first round.kchico wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm Things are getting difficult at work and I am feeling like pulling the plug and retire but I do not feel ready because everything changed in last 2 weeks. My company eliminated 10 people in a team 12 and I now have a crazy work load and I am being forced to go back to the office which I am not a fun off after really enjoying working from home for a few years after Covid. I am 38 and my wife 39 and we have two kids 7 and 4.
Thanks
Others have given you advice. At your age, you don't have enough for retirement yet and you need a different "Plan B" than retirement.
Cheers and good luck!
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
If you are thinking of leaving anyway, tell them that you are taking on the work of several people after the layoffs and that you want a substantial (20%?) raise. Worst case they say no and you can leave. I think two adults living very cheaply might retire with that money, but you have young kids an the next 20 years are going to entail supporting them financially too. Just find a job that you enjoy for the next 10 years.
70% Global Stocks / 30% Bonds
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
I feel your pain - roughly same age, same assets, same kids. My number to walk away is $4M. I’m encouraged by the other threads that talk about how much quicker subsequent millions accumulate than the first, and I look forward to getting some momentum back in the stock market.
I think you find another job that hopefully comes with a big raise. That should get you through another couple years. Then you will be due for a midlife crisis, which you can satisfy with early retirement.
I think you find another job that hopefully comes with a big raise. That should get you through another couple years. Then you will be due for a midlife crisis, which you can satisfy with early retirement.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
You're in your prime earning years. Get another job. Why stop earning and sweating about going from saving to spending-and getting crazy when lumpy expenses happen.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Yeah I am flustered specially when my other coworker gets to work from home. Going to the office seems like such a waste to me, it adds 1.5 hours to my day. That's a ton of time wasted per week and now I have to spend money to get there etc.labguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:58 pm Seems the return to work has got you flustered. Pre pandemic I assume you weren’t wfh, so can’t the company leverage a more collaborative environment and ask folks to return to the office? I sense this issue has got you pretty tripped up. If you don’t like it leave and find a wfh job, but at your age with a young family I’d vote for more years earning money. No question.
You are hilarious. You don't know what is going on all companies in the world. Where I am the CEO is remote, the CFO is remote and bunch of VP's are remote. After the restructuring I happen to end up under some VP that has a Napoleon complex and likes to see people in the office everyday. Like I stated before the other guy that was kept on my team is remote. I happen to live close by to the factory so they want me to go back to the office everyday.8301 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:29 pmI don't understand. If you wish to get paid, you have to do what your employer asks you to do within reason. Utility workers, road crews, airline workers,... Even the ceo of of a market cap $xxx B company shows up to work everyday. And janitors. I am not any more valuable than any of them.
You can't have your cake and eat.
My company was spending money like crazy and layoff 300 people out of 1000 when things got difficult. I always thought about retirement and that's the reason we have been saving and investing my money to achieved this goal. I never pulled the trigger because I liked my job, I was working from home while making good money so why not keep working. That was huge mistake because my portfolio was a lot more than it is right now and If I had retired I would have divested into a diversified portfolio.2pedals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:57 pm 10 people in a team 12 sounds really bad, but why did they cut 10 people out of 12? Why not you also? Maybe you are considered too important to let go and can expect significant pay increases in the future. Maybe this is the start of a complete shutdown where very little work is expected in the future. How many people work for the company? Can you put the situation in a more detailed context? Obviously you want to quit your job, so what? Not an unusual situation except you now want the retire at 38. Did you want to retire last year or even the year before? Many bogleheads take years of planning to get to the point where they feel comfortable pulling the trigger.
It feels to me that I am really close to achieving what I need. A 3.4% withdrawal would give me the lower end of what we need to live comfortably and more than our current expenses. By retirement I don't mean that I am not going to do anything anymore and my wife can do consulting here and there. Eventually we will get SS and obviously not counting on this but potentially a decent inheritance. I don't need $4M-10M and I am not interested in that way of life and is not need to live a happy comfortable life.
Last edited by kchico on Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
It adds up on my calculator.student wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:37 pmWhat do you mean? 270+284+190+400+70+300+230=1744KlangFool wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:31 pmkchico,kchico wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm
Age: 38 and 39
Total Portfolio: $1.75M
Taxable
$270k
His 401K:
$284k
81% Fidelity 500 Index (FXAIX)
10% Fidelity International Index (FSPSX)
9% Vanguard International Growth Admiral (VWILX)
Company match? 4%
His Roth IRA at E-trade
$190k
Traditional IRA at E-trade
$400k
Her Roth IRA at E-trade
$70k
Her Roll-Over IRA at E-trade
$300k
Her Traditional IRA at E-trade
$230k
I do not see a portfolio of 1.7m. Please redo your calculation.
KlangFool
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Tbh, I find this whole thread depressing (see my signature for context). But ...kchico wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:49 am [snip...]
It feels to me that I am really close to achieving what I need. A 3.4% withdrawal would give me the lower end of what we need to live comfortably and more than our current expenses. By retirement I don't mean that I am not going to do anything anymore and my wife can do consulting here and there. Eventually we will get SS and obviously not counting on this but potentially a decent inheritance. I don't need $4M-10M and I am not interested in that way of life and is not need to live a happy comfortable life.
As others have pointed out, you're relying on a SWR that's computed for much shorter retirements. Your frugal lifestyle doesn't account for any medical issues or educational expenses, much less a divorce (I'm sure your marriage is solid now, but life is long). At the risk of being a crotchety old man, I will say that children learn by watching us rather than listening to us; are you sure that the behavior you are modeling for your two children is what you want them to learn?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
You need to recalculate your withdrawal rate, it would not be 3.4%.kchico wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:49 am It feels to me that I am really close to achieving what I need. A 3.4% withdrawal would give me the lower end of what we need to live comfortably and more than our current expenses. By retirement I don't mean that I am not going to do anything anymore and my wife can do consulting here and there. Eventually we will get SS and obviously not counting on this but potentially a decent inheritance. I don't need $4M-10M and I am not interested in that way of life and is not need to live a happy comfortable life.
You only have 270k in taxable, the rest in IRA or 401k, either not accessible or 10% penalty if accessed.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
OP,
I am mid career like you and have an extremely stressful job that pays me very well.
I was ready to quit before getting to WFH, and now I will never go back. I finally got to see my kids get off the school bus, sleepin or workout instead of commuting. I will never go back to the office in any routine way.
I understand how impactful WFH is to your quality of life. It’s been a blessing.
If you are ready to even contemplate retiring, then you HAVE the ability to walk into the office, tell your VP manager you’re willing to hang in there with the new setup (building loyalty) but only by managing your stress from continuing to WFH.
It seems pretty simple to me.
But you’re in a highly emotional state right now so I would not quit, and I would not stay as things are. Find a middle ground to see if that gives you breathing room again.
I am mid career like you and have an extremely stressful job that pays me very well.
I was ready to quit before getting to WFH, and now I will never go back. I finally got to see my kids get off the school bus, sleepin or workout instead of commuting. I will never go back to the office in any routine way.
I understand how impactful WFH is to your quality of life. It’s been a blessing.
If you are ready to even contemplate retiring, then you HAVE the ability to walk into the office, tell your VP manager you’re willing to hang in there with the new setup (building loyalty) but only by managing your stress from continuing to WFH.
It seems pretty simple to me.
But you’re in a highly emotional state right now so I would not quit, and I would not stay as things are. Find a middle ground to see if that gives you breathing room again.
- arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
yeah, i thought that too but then I think the OP might have individual stocks (he talks about selling stock with no tax impact because of the lower MFJ income), so luck/taking idiosynratic risks you/I wouldn't have taken might have played a factor methinks.OldSport wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:07 pm OP has >$1.7M with a $70-80k salary. WOW. That is impressive.
The SWR of 3.2% does work out to $54k/year, and so OP can lean FIRE or BARISTA fire with $20k income supplemental income elsewhere, but if I were OP, I'd DEFINITELY look for another job. OP has the freedom to do so.
I make a lot more than OP but have a lot less saved. I love my job function & compensation but have to work with a handful of type A aggressive & selfish bullying individuals that I cannot stand the way they treat me, so am trying to live well below my means and save & invest 50% of income to be FI just to have options if it deteriorates. So OP did excellent in saving & investing.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions |
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
kchico wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:49 amYeah I am flustered specially when my other coworker gets to work from home. Going to the office seems like such a waste to me, it adds 1.5 hours to my day. That's a ton of time wasted per week and now I have to spend money to get there etc.labguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:58 pm Seems the return to work has got you flustered. Pre pandemic I assume you weren’t wfh, so can’t the company leverage a more collaborative environment and ask folks to return to the office? I sense this issue has got you pretty tripped up. If you don’t like it leave and find a wfh job, but at your age with a young family I’d vote for more years earning money. No question.
You are hilarious. You don't know what is going on all companies in the world. Where I am the CEO is remote, the CFO is remote and bunch of VP's are remote. After the restructuring I happen to end up under some VP that has a Napoleon complex and likes to see people in the office everyday. Like I stated before the other guy that was kept on my team is remote. I happen to live close by to the factory so they want me to go back to the office everyday.8301 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:29 pmI don't understand. If you wish to get paid, you have to do what your employer asks you to do within reason. Utility workers, road crews, airline workers,... Even the ceo of of a market cap $xxx B company shows up to work everyday. And janitors. I am not any more valuable than any of them.Normchad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:09 pm
Any way you can negotiate for a combination of WFH and office? My company did. We go to the office 2 days a week and WFH 3 days. Company put out a survey about what employees feel in regard to work/life balance and this was a popular option. Has been working quite well.
A lot of employers realize that requiring a return to office will cause some people to quit. And they’re totally okay with it. And some are doing it intentionally, seeing it as a quick easy way to reduce headcount.
You can't have your cake and eat.
My company was spending money like crazy and layoff 300 people out of 1000 when things got difficult. I always thought about retirement and that's the reason we have been saving and investing my money to achieved this goal. I never pulled the trigger because I liked my job, I was working from home while making good money so why not keep working. That was huge mistake because my portfolio was a lot more than it is right now and If I had retired I would have divested into a diversified portfolio.2pedals wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:57 pm 10 people in a team 12 sounds really bad, but why did they cut 10 people out of 12? Why not you also? Maybe you are considered too important to let go and can expect significant pay increases in the future. Maybe this is the start of a complete shutdown where very little work is expected in the future. How many people work for the company? Can you put the situation in a more detailed context? Obviously you want to quit your job, so what? Not an unusual situation except you now want the retire at 38. Did you want to retire last year or even the year before? Many bogleheads take years of planning to get to the point where they feel comfortable pulling the trigger.
It feels to me that I am really close to achieving what I need. A 3.4% withdrawal would give me the lower end of what we need to live comfortably and more than our current expenses. By retirement I don't mean that I am not going to do anything anymore and my wife can do consulting here and there. Eventually we will get SS and obviously not counting on this but potentially a decent inheritance. I don't need $4M-10M and I am not interested in that way of life and is not need to live a happy comfortable life.
Last edited by CoAndy on Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
it may be pushing you into a new job but not retirement. what does "retirement" look like to you?
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
No, OP is not good at saving or investing. They bought TSLA calls and now owns shares. It's not individual stocks. It's one stock. And the lack of tax impact is due to tax-advantaged accounts.arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:35 amyeah, i thought that too but then I think the OP might have individual stocks (he talks about selling stock with no tax impact because of the lower MFJ income), so luck/taking idiosynratic risks you/I wouldn't have taken might have played a factor methinks.OldSport wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:07 pm OP has >$1.7M with a $70-80k salary. WOW. That is impressive.
The SWR of 3.2% does work out to $54k/year, and so OP can lean FIRE or BARISTA fire with $20k income supplemental income elsewhere, but if I were OP, I'd DEFINITELY look for another job. OP has the freedom to do so.
I make a lot more than OP but have a lot less saved. I love my job function & compensation but have to work with a handful of type A aggressive & selfish bullying individuals that I cannot stand the way they treat me, so am trying to live well below my means and save & invest 50% of income to be FI just to have options if it deteriorates. So OP did excellent in saving & investing.
OP, tomorrow or next week your NW will be +/- 100k. I don't know how you sleep like that. But if your only goal is retirement you might as well keep rolling the dice, because you're not there yet.
My actual advice to you is to accept your lottery winnings with gratitude, and go back to living as if you didn't have them. (But do go ahead and sell at least most of the TSLA.) Know that your retirement will be far more luxurious than expected, but keep working because that's what 38 year olds do.
- Harry Livermore
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
In fact, I am on the far end of that spectrum. I work in a business that CANNOT be executed unless the team is in the same place at the same time. Not only that, but I am self-employed. The fear of the unknown with COVID, intervention of lockdowns, and protracted "it's not safe yet" mindset meant that I basically could not work in 2020, and 2021 and 2022 were lousy years too. COVID was far, far worse for my family than the crash of 1987, the recession of 1991, the "tech wreck" of the early 2000s, or the GFC. I VERY MUCH would like to "go back to the office".8301 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:29 pmI don't understand. If you wish to get paid, you have to do what your employer asks you to do within reason. Utility workers, road crews, airline workers,... Even the ceo of of a market cap $xxx B company shows up to work everyday. And janitors. I am not any more valuable than any of them.Normchad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:09 pmA lot of employers realize that requiring a return to office will cause some people to quit. And they’re totally okay with it. And some are doing it intentionally, seeing it as a quick easy way to reduce headcount.labguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:58 pm Seems the return to work has got you flustered. Pre pandemic I assume you weren’t wfh, so can’t the company leverage a more collaborative environment and ask folks to return to the office? I sense this issue has got you pretty tripped up. If you don’t like it leave and find a wfh job, but at your age with a young family I’d vote for more years earning money. No question.
You can't have your cake and eat.
I appreciate that members of "The Laptop Class" basically got to see "Gay Paree" and now don't want to go "Back To The Farm", but be careful what you wish for. If enough folks are fed up with having to go somewhere to work, employers might just decide that remote workers in far-flung locales, making 1/10th what the folks in the US demand, might be the next wave of employees they hire...
OP, you are free to do what you want. Certainly FIRE and a life of ease sounds terrific. I would say a life of leisure, starting at 38, with young kids and many unknowns over the next 60 years, might be... ill-advised.
Certainly thinking "the 4% rule" is a lock is nuts.
All of the preceding is my own opinion of course. And it's Wednesday and I'm feeling salty
Cheers
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
If you hate your job, leave your job.
You don't actually have to decide if you are "retiring" or will look for another job. You can start looking for another job next month or next year or when the kids are in high school. But there is no need to stay at one that you hate, given that you have savings. Leaving that particular job is not a lifelong decision.
You don't actually have to decide if you are "retiring" or will look for another job. You can start looking for another job next month or next year or when the kids are in high school. But there is no need to stay at one that you hate, given that you have savings. Leaving that particular job is not a lifelong decision.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
OP: as you've discovered, the general audience here at Bogleheads is far more conservative with much higher spending than you'll find @ MMM.
I say you have at least enough money to leave/get fired from this job and figure out what you want to do next. Kudos.
However:
The vast majority of your wealth is in a single stock. You aren't applying the findings of the Trinity Study, so the 4% Rule doesn't apply in your case.
For a million reasons, but especially this one, sell the single stock and put it into a reasonable portfolio that will not carry so much risk. Otherwise your well-being will be at the mercy of a single company.
I say you have at least enough money to leave/get fired from this job and figure out what you want to do next. Kudos.
However:
The Trinity Study's "4% Rule" is indeed based on a 30-year retirement, but it's also based on investing in the S&P500.
The vast majority of your wealth is in a single stock. You aren't applying the findings of the Trinity Study, so the 4% Rule doesn't apply in your case.
For a million reasons, but especially this one, sell the single stock and put it into a reasonable portfolio that will not carry so much risk. Otherwise your well-being will be at the mercy of a single company.
- Harry Livermore
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
+1.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 am
At the risk of being a crotchety old man, I will say that children learn by watching us rather than listening to us; are you sure that the behavior you are modeling for your two children is what you want them to learn?
Cheers
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
OP what about finding part time work you enjoy or at least don't mind doing? Even clearing $1,500 a month along with what your wife brings in on occasion would probably cement your numbers.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
So OP should commute 90 minutes a day, give up quality time with their family to go to a job that doesn't respect them? I'm curious what positive life lessons the kids will get from that.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 am At the risk of being a crotchety old man, I will say that children learn by watching us rather than listening to us; are you sure that the behavior you are modeling for your two children is what you want them to learn?
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
I find some of the negative comments to the OP unnecessary. The man has 1.7m in his 30s, regardless of how he arrived there, good for him. I think his kids will be fine knowing their dad did something for himself and was also diligent enough to build a nest egg that the common folk really only dream of. I love Bogleheads, however I don’t think in any other community would someone that has saved nearly $2m be lambasted for parental behaviors… LOL.
Ok, that aside, one thing that hasn’t been mentioned: OP, the fact that they downsized from 12 to TWO people gives you leverage. If you quit are they going to put the weight of the entire department on just one person? I think that there is an opportunity to use some savvy and negotiate, despite your boss being a mini-Napoleon. Use the negotiation to give you space to then plan your next move. From a place that is more emotionally calm, vs. what I am sure you are going through is some level of in-the-moment anguish. Best of luck.
Ok, that aside, one thing that hasn’t been mentioned: OP, the fact that they downsized from 12 to TWO people gives you leverage. If you quit are they going to put the weight of the entire department on just one person? I think that there is an opportunity to use some savvy and negotiate, despite your boss being a mini-Napoleon. Use the negotiation to give you space to then plan your next move. From a place that is more emotionally calm, vs. what I am sure you are going through is some level of in-the-moment anguish. Best of luck.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Spiff up the resume.
Find a new job, closer to home. It happens.
The OP and family can do it. Read up on www.rootofgood.com.
Family of 5, mid 30s. Retired on a budget of $3k per month. It can be done, but most are not willing to do what their family does.
Find a new job, closer to home. It happens.
The OP and family can do it. Read up on www.rootofgood.com.
Family of 5, mid 30s. Retired on a budget of $3k per month. It can be done, but most are not willing to do what their family does.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
At the OP's age I think he needs to keep working. There are a ton of jobs out there some may pay more and a lot pay less but quitting now w/o another job would be a mistake. I've been in some bad situations and you gut them out while finding something else. I've taken less or equal money in some cases and have been happier.
I never had a family but if I had, I would be very concerned with health insurance that would be needed for another 25 years.
Could he quit and be ok, possibly but I think some income still needs to be found.
I never had a family but if I had, I would be very concerned with health insurance that would be needed for another 25 years.
Could he quit and be ok, possibly but I think some income still needs to be found.
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If you think something is important and it doesn't involve the health of someone, think again. Life goes too fast, enjoy it and be nice.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
I am not suggesting that OP keep his job. There is a lot of territory left between that and retiring. He had a job he once liked, he can find another.matthewbarnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:21 amSo OP should commute 90 minutes a day, give up quality time with their family to go to a job that doesn't respect them? I'm curious what positive life lessons the kids will get from that.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 am At the risk of being a crotchety old man, I will say that children learn by watching us rather than listening to us; are you sure that the behavior you are modeling for your two children is what you want them to learn?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
I can do the annual rollovers and withdraw penalty free after 5 years. I might have to rollover more than I need on a few years to catch up and I can withdraw contribution with no penalty.swylie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:23 am You have 1.75 mil but only $270,000 (taxable account) plus the contribution portion of Roths are available to you. IRA withdrawals would be penalized until you reach age 59 1/2 and you can't withdraw from 401Ks until age 55. Doesn't that change the calculations quite a bit?
I can't think that way or I will never early retire. There is always risk; I could find out that I have cancer tomorrow and be done within a year there is too many "what ifs". What behavior? Coming to this country at 15 while not speaking English, paying off my house before I turned 30 and now having close to a multi million dollar net worth? No one has said that I am going to seat on the couch and do nothing.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 amTbh, I find this whole thread depressing (see my signature for context). But ...kchico wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:49 am [snip...]
It feels to me that I am really close to achieving what I need. A 3.4% withdrawal would give me the lower end of what we need to live comfortably and more than our current expenses. By retirement I don't mean that I am not going to do anything anymore and my wife can do consulting here and there. Eventually we will get SS and obviously not counting on this but potentially a decent inheritance. I don't need $4M-10M and I am not interested in that way of life and is not need to live a happy comfortable life.
As others have pointed out, you're relying on a SWR that's computed for much shorter retirements. Your frugal lifestyle doesn't account for any medical issues or educational expenses, much less a divorce (I'm sure your marriage is solid now, but life is long). At the risk of being a crotchety old man, I will say that children learn by watching us rather than listening to us; are you sure that the behavior you are modeling for your two children is what you want them to learn?
Exactly! I love seeing my kids and watching them grow up before they are out on their on. I find it "depressing" not spending time with your kids chasing money or meaningless career goals.TexasBorn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:17 am OP,
I am mid career like you and have an extremely stressful job that pays me very well.
I was ready to quit before getting to WFH, and now I will never go back. I finally got to see my kids get off the school bus, sleepin or workout instead of commuting. I will never go back to the office in any routine way.
I understand how impactful WFH is to your quality of life. It’s been a blessing.
If you are ready to even contemplate retiring, then you HAVE the ability to walk into the office, tell your VP manager you’re willing to hang in there with the new setup (building loyalty) but only by managing your stress from continuing to WFH.
It seems pretty simple to me.
But you’re in a highly emotional state right now so I would not quit, and I would not stay as things are. Find a middle ground to see if that gives you breathing room again.
4% SWR at age 65 assume you live to 95, correct?matthewbarnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:09 am OP: as you've discovered, the general audience here at Bogleheads is far more conservative with much higher spending than you'll find @ MMM.
I say you have at least enough money to leave/get fired from this job and figure out what you want to do next. Kudos.
However:
The Trinity Study's "4% Rule" is indeed based on a 30-year retirement, but it's also based on investing in the S&P500.
The vast majority of your wealth is in a single stock. You aren't applying the findings of the Trinity Study, so the 4% Rule doesn't apply in your case.
For a million reasons, but especially this one, sell the single stock and put it into a reasonable portfolio that will not carry so much risk. Otherwise your well-being will be at the mercy of a single company.
I am 38 and to age 62 I have 24 years. I calculated what my SS would be at 62 and it should be $1200 and month and the same for my wife with zero income from now on. That essentially would cover 50% of my income target requirement. Running some scenarios on my $1.75M portfolio for 24 years pulling out $58,000 I ended up with a median balance of $3.6-3.4M, the 10th percentile at $1.4-1.2M and on very very lower end $800-600k. So in a way at age 62% I could be using a 4% SWR at $800k or a 2% SWR at $1.4M to meet my current goals.
The math is telling me that I am really close or there. And again might wife or I could supplement income a little bit here and there.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
This comes up a lot, but studies show that kids thrive by being around adults who interact with them. Doing things with your kids, letting them see your struggles and problem solving are very good ways to be role models. Going off to work where they can't see any of that, or even working from home behind a closed door are much less useful.TomatoTomahto wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 amTbh, I find this whole thread depressing (see my signature for context). But ...kchico wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:49 am [snip...]
It feels to me that I am really close to achieving what I need. A 3.4% withdrawal would give me the lower end of what we need to live comfortably and more than our current expenses. By retirement I don't mean that I am not going to do anything anymore and my wife can do consulting here and there. Eventually we will get SS and obviously not counting on this but potentially a decent inheritance. I don't need $4M-10M and I am not interested in that way of life and is not need to live a happy comfortable life.
As others have pointed out, you're relying on a SWR that's computed for much shorter retirements. Your frugal lifestyle doesn't account for any medical issues or educational expenses, much less a divorce (I'm sure your marriage is solid now, but life is long). At the risk of being a crotchety old man, I will say that children learn by watching us rather than listening to us; are you sure that the behavior you are modeling for your two children is what you want them to learn?
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Although I agree with the majority here that horizon is too long and kids are to young (my kids expenses shoot up every year), I do want to call out that taxable is not that far away from what might be needed to bridge the 5years of Roth conversion ladder technique (mad fientist blog) if expenses are truly less then 60K. Anyway that's not me agreeing to his RE plans, just commenting that taxable does not have to cover the 20+ years until Traditional 401k/IRA are available tax free.Absolutely! wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 am You only have 270k in taxable, the rest in IRA or 401k, either not accessible or 10% penalty if accessed.
Sounds like OP was planning on this ladder technique in his last reply.
Since all this happened only a couple weeks ago I would take a couple months before making any quick life altering decisions. For me a simple job change within my company was all I needed to get out of the RE to escape mindset. I still want to RE just not on those terms. Closer I get to FI the easier it is to say no but more importantly the easier it is to not stress about what I say yes to.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Work-life balance is a catch word for getting paid while staying home or wherever. I belong to a large advanced R/D group (not S/W) including Western Europe and East Asia. The arrangement is not for cheap labor. The majority in the foreign countries hold advanced degrees and many of them are highly experienced. They are as good as those in the US and well paid, but the cost is still lower. I see no downside in shifting more workloads abroad. In light of the wfh rage, it is about time for employers to take a fresh look.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:06 amIn fact, I am on the far end of that spectrum. I work in a business that CANNOT be executed unless the team is in the same place at the same time. Not only that, but I am self-employed. The fear of the unknown with COVID, intervention of lockdowns, and protracted "it's not safe yet" mindset meant that I basically could not work in 2020, and 2021 and 2022 were lousy years too. COVID was far, far worse for my family than the crash of 1987, the recession of 1991, the "tech wreck" of the early 2000s, or the GFC. I VERY MUCH would like to "go back to the office".8301 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:29 pmI don't understand. If you wish to get paid, you have to do what your employer asks you to do within reason. Utility workers, road crews, airline workers,... Even the ceo of of a market cap $xxx B company shows up to work everyday. And janitors. I am not any more valuable than any of them.Normchad wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:09 pmA lot of employers realize that requiring a return to office will cause some people to quit. And they’re totally okay with it. And some are doing it intentionally, seeing it as a quick easy way to reduce headcount.labguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:58 pm Seems the return to work has got you flustered. Pre pandemic I assume you weren’t wfh, so can’t the company leverage a more collaborative environment and ask folks to return to the office? I sense this issue has got you pretty tripped up. If you don’t like it leave and find a wfh job, but at your age with a young family I’d vote for more years earning money. No question.
You can't have your cake and eat.
I appreciate that members of "The Laptop Class" basically got to see "Gay Paree" and now don't want to go "Back To The Farm", but be careful what you wish for. If enough folks are fed up with having to go somewhere to work, employers might just decide that remote workers in far-flung locales, making 1/10th what the folks in the US demand, might be the next wave of employees they hire...
OP, you are free to do what you want. Certainly FIRE and a life of ease sounds terrific. I would say a life of leisure, starting at 38, with young kids and many unknowns over the next 60 years, might be... ill-advised.
Certainly thinking "the 4% rule" is a lock is nuts.
All of the preceding is my own opinion of course. And it's Wednesday and I'm feeling salty
Cheers
- Hacksawdave
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
So, you have $284K in the 401k and all the other accounts are in a single stock. Does this single stock also happen to be your employer that is at the center of discussion? This one holding represents 84% of your portfolio.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
8301,8301 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:16 am
Work-life balance is a catch word for getting paid while staying home or wherever. I belong to a large advanced R/D group (not S/W) including Western Europe and East Asia. The arrangement is not for cheap labor. The majority in the foreign countries hold advanced degrees and many of them are highly experienced. They are as good as those in the US and well paid, but the cost is still lower. I see no downside in shifting more workloads abroad. In light of the wfh rage, it is about time for employers to take a fresh look.
It goes both way. At OP's pay level of 70K per year, it is not worthwhile for OP to stay at a job with a lousy work life balance.
Does anyone in your team work at this pay level?
It is time for the employee to take a fresh look at their jobs. Do not take a lousy work life balance along with the lousy pay.
KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
OP,
Sell your single stock and diversify. Or else, be willing to lose all your leverage when your single stock crashes.
KlangFool
Sell your single stock and diversify. Or else, be willing to lose all your leverage when your single stock crashes.
KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
When in doubt, try to be happy.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
- quantAndHold
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Even worse than that. TSLA.Hacksawdave wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:26 amSo, you have $284K in the 401k and all the other accounts are in a single stock. Does this single stock also happen to be your employer that is at the center of discussion? This one holding represents 84% of your portfolio.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
1. A mix of Total U.S. stock / Total International stock / Short-term treasurieskchico wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:10 pm Questions:
1. What should I do with my 401k and $1.4M in cash after selling the stock if I decide to pull the trigger? What funds?
2. Does it look like we have enough?
3. Should I start roll overs ASAP? or try to wait until next year when I should have lower income. I don't have enough for 5 years of expenses in my after tax.
4. I will probably speak to my employer to get a layoff to be able to use the severance to repay the debt around $30k I assume. I can also sell one of the cars that should wipe out $60k of the debt. I made a bad decision and bought an expensive car when the market was at AH and my portfolio was worth a lot more.
Thanks
2. It depends if you're okay with using $53,356 annual expense as the baseline for the SWR calculation. It would bump it up to account for house maintenance & repair (1% of value), car fund ($500 a month), travel fund ($500 a month), and 529 plan ($500 a month).
3. You can rollover your 401k to traditional IRA anytime. You can wait until lower income year to do Roth IRA conversion.
4. That's a good idea.
OP: not sure if this is helpful. But here is my perspective: the one that left is the one that have the leverage. There is a reason why the Company didn't let you go. So think of bigger picture and try to find out what value that your department can add to the Company. They may not tell you directly, but you may be in the position to make demands. But at least find out whether you have the leverage or not. Don't assume.
Start with telling them that working from home is non-negotiable. See how it turns out.
Time is the ultimate currency.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
As I mentioned up thread, Social Security takes your highest 30 years of earnings. When you go to the SS site and see your estimated payment, that payment is based on you earning your current salary for 30 years. It will be substantially smaller than estimated if you nullify that assumption. Also, currently, Social Security is projected to pay out only 75-80% of the benefits due.
Companies are scrambling for workers still. You should easily be able to find a job with comparable pay that won't make you miserable.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Maybe you can take a break while spouse works full time for a while? I'm not typically a fan of one income from two partners because the working partner often bears the brunt of the job stress, which seems to be OP's case. If your spouse was working, you would have more options to walk away from a job that you don't like. I agree with other posters that you can/should find another job rather than considering retirement. You shouldn't stay in a toxic environment but also should look for a new job. Good luck!
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Besides yourself, you have three people dependent on your salary and portfolio. If you decide to take a break or retire from work, at least secure your financial future by diversifying out of the volatile single stock.
In the meantime, don’t hang your hopes on leaving only if they pay you severance. Consider telling your boss you will be in the office only 1 or 2 days per week, wfh the rest, keep your hours to a reasonable # no matter how many former employer jobs they try to shift to you and your co-worker. The worst they can do is fire you. Polish your résumé and see what else is out there regardless of whether you receive severance or not. Another job for a couple years will give you time to beef up your portfolio and unwind your single stock. You can likely earn full time in 1-2 years what you would earn in 10-20 years of possibly lower-paid part-time work. Then see where you are re: early retirement.
In the meantime, don’t hang your hopes on leaving only if they pay you severance. Consider telling your boss you will be in the office only 1 or 2 days per week, wfh the rest, keep your hours to a reasonable # no matter how many former employer jobs they try to shift to you and your co-worker. The worst they can do is fire you. Polish your résumé and see what else is out there regardless of whether you receive severance or not. Another job for a couple years will give you time to beef up your portfolio and unwind your single stock. You can likely earn full time in 1-2 years what you would earn in 10-20 years of possibly lower-paid part-time work. Then see where you are re: early retirement.
- Hacksawdave
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Going into early retirement with a portfolio that produces practically no dividends or income is a recipe for disaster that I have seen quite a few go through in the late 90s and early 2000s. Withdrawal rates should not be based upon expected consistent capital appreciation of a single growth stock. Several older coworkers of mine dropped 40% in about three years from 2000-2002. It also did not work well for many who had most or all of their assets in a single stock that began with a big “E”.quantAndHold wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:28 amEven worse than that. TSLA.Hacksawdave wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:26 amSo, you have $284K in the 401k and all the other accounts are in a single stock. Does this single stock also happen to be your employer that is at the center of discussion? This one holding represents 84% of your portfolio.
I would diversify out of the single stock first, then consider switching jobs.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
That's what I did when my job was making me crazy. It was the best move I ever made and it worked out fine.quantAndHold wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:48 pmNot at age 38, with young kids at home. 4% is a SWR for a 30 year retirement.
Retiring at 38 because you have a bad job is a pretty extreme move. Most people just go out and find a new job.
Get most of it right and don't make any big mistakes. All else being equal, simpler is better. Simple is as simple does.
Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
Is this really a choice between "keep on getting beaten up at this sucky job" and "commit to 50-60 years of retirement with no further income except investments and Social Security"?
Of course not. You have enough money that you can leave your current job, take some time to decompress, and look for a new and better job.
Of course not. You have enough money that you can leave your current job, take some time to decompress, and look for a new and better job.
Last edited by 22twain on Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad Work Situation Pushing me into retirement.
You need to sell most (if not all) of that stock. Pretty much now. And put it in whatever combo of Total US Market, Total International Market, Total Bond Market, and cash you feel comfortable with (as long as at least 30% is in the stock market).
I don't care that you got 80% of what you have by consistently taking the same risk that paid off. Good for you.
Now, do you want to keep what you have? Because your $1.75m could be $400k the next time you turn around. Sell it.
Not quite enough to retire at 38, even once diversified. You already know that. The numbers are close. Almost. Nearly there, if you squidge the bits around and squint at it in a particular way. Right? If your spend was $30k/yr, then yeah. But it's not.2. Does it look like we have enough?
I think it's really important to understand what you do have right now, as long as you diversify away from that one stock. And that is the ability to be underemployed for the rest of your life and be fine. Not unemployed forevermore. Not early retired right now. But you have the ability to walk away from any job. That is huge. That is really a huge, huge, fantastic thing. If you want to use it to walk away from this job, then do.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin