Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
User avatar
squirrel1963
Posts: 1253
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
Location: Portland OR area

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by squirrel1963 »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:09 pm Someone I used to know doesn’t contribute to his 401K but invests through Acorns (if it still exists). For the non-cognoscenti among us, that is the fintech app that rounds up your credit card purchases to the nearest dollar and invests the change.

Update: it still exists and has over 8 million customers.

Other topic: some people do not realize you can start your 401k and IRA catch up contributions in the beginning of the calendar year in which you (expect to) turn 50. In other words, you don’t have to wait until age 50 to be eligible, and since there is no match you do not have to spread the investments out equally throughout the year.
Catch-up contributions are the best thing about turning 50 in my mind :mrgreen:
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
Wannaretireearly
Posts: 4847
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:39 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Wannaretireearly »

student wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 am
Wannaretireearly wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:12 am I learnt early and the hard way, which is often the best.

Only after doing my own taxes year 1, and finding mistakes with my tax preparer did I start the journey of learning the tax system. I guarantee the majority of even smart highly educated people, have not done their own taxes. I’m not even talking 1040 but even TurboTax!

I’ve been a trust but verify type person, which I 100% attribute to my upbringing. I’m trying to pass on that torch to my kids!!

As AL mentions above, the missing part is any simple to understand system. We have a taxation and retirement planning system aimed at the top 5% of the population (iq, intelligence, etc). That is not how these systems should be. They should benefit, be understandable and be simple to the mass population. Not the most intelligent 5%.

An example from a quick search re: UK ISA information from the Government (not a blog, vendor, for profit company, etc):
https://www.gov.uk/individual-savings-a ... -isas-work

Does anything like this exist on the US govt website? Simple language? Easy to find? I’d love to see if this exists!!
What grades will you give to https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/pl ... n-overview and https://www.investor.gov/additional-res ... 401k-plans comparing to the UK site?
The second one is better, but still not an easy read.
When I left the UK, there was a push by govt agencies for ‘plain English’. That shows well imo. UK link is clearer and easier to understand with examples.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
NYCaviator
Posts: 1925
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:06 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by NYCaviator »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:36 am
JS-Elcano wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:26 am
NYCaviator wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:25 am This is an extremely interesting thread to read, and my own experiences mirror much of what others have said.

There is no denying that the average American is embarrassingly financially illiterate. We are a consumer and debt driven culture, taught to keep buying. Yes, you can afford that $60,000 SUV on your $70,000 household income if you just extend the payments out to 84 months. Of course you can afford that new $1,200 iPhone, there's a payment plan tailored just for you. You can even "finance" clothes and household essentials using services like Klarma now. We just keep finding new ways to go into debt. Most other countries view debt as a bad thing and a sign of irresponsibility.

All of this - in my opinion - comes down to a complete lack of financial education in schools here in the US. We aren't teaching kids basic skills/concepts like what compound interest is, how interest on debt can snowball over time, why credit cards can be dangerous, etc. That needs to be taught every year, beginning in grade school (at a very basic level) all the way through high school.

While the 401k has been around for quite a while, I believe we are really going to see this financial illiteracy problem manifest itself in the coming decades when more and more people try to retire and realize that social security isn't going to cover their expenses and they didn't save nearly enough during their working years.
Indeed. I am glad I grew up that way. It makes life so much easier. The only exception is the mortgage for a primary residence.
Unfortunately, even in those 'other' countries this standard is erroding and people now take out loans to buy cars (at least in the 'other' Western European country that I am familar with). However, there is also no financial education in schools in other countries, this is not just a failing here in the US.
At least in my experience, Americans are no more financially illiterate than those from other countries, debt is just a lot more available here than almost anywhere else. I can tell you, the country where my parents grew up there is no financial education whatsoever in the public schools (and a far smaller percentage of people go and graduate anyway), but it's also a heck of a lot more difficult to get a loan for any purpose.
I agree with both of you that a lack of financial education in schools isn't special to the US, and to be fair, my experience is really limited to W Europe. Even without a formal financial education in schools though, there's just a fundamental difference in how people deal with and view money when compared to the US. Most Europeans view debt as a bad thing, and people - by and large - live within their means; consumer debt isn't really a thing in most European countries because there is no demand for it. When you grow up like that, chances are you are getting you basic financial education at home. On the other hand if you grow up in a household where your parents buy new cars every couple of years, max out their credit cards, and are up to their eyeballs in debt, you may just think that's normal and if you aren't taught otherwise, you'll probably do the same thing when you're an adult.

The social safety nets in Europe are also a HUGE difference. Where you have a state-funded retirement scheme where contributions are baked into the tax you pay, it's basically set-it and forget-it and there is not as much of a need to educate people on saving for retirement. Contrast that with the US where social security generally isn't enough to live off of, so we're forced to save on our own in these complicated, voluntary retirement accounts. If our kids aren't taught about how that stuff works, they aren't going to be able to comfortably retire.
User avatar
AnnetteLouisan
Posts: 7239
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

squirrel1963 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:46 pm
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:09 pm Someone I used to know doesn’t contribute to his 401K but invests through Acorns (if it still exists). For the non-cognoscenti among us, that is the fintech app that rounds up your credit card purchases to the nearest dollar and invests the change.

Update: it still exists and has over 8 million customers.

Other topic: some people do not realize you can start your 401k and IRA catch up contributions in the beginning of the calendar year in which you (expect to) turn 50. In other words, you don’t have to wait until age 50 to be eligible, and since there is no match you do not have to spread the investments out equally throughout the year.
Catch-up contributions are the best thing about turning 50 in my mind :mrgreen:
I’ve gone back and forth about whether to do them, but I’ve maxed them each year I’ve been eligible (more than a few). I’m a good candidate for them since I didn’t invest enough early in life.

My benefits person strongly recommended it, but she says many people don’t do this. My one concern is, it converts money that could be subject to long term cap gains into money that will be taxed as ordinary income with no match to make up for it, but I do it anyway for the creditor protection and current year tax break.

I’ve definitely been told by some coworkers that they can’t afford to max their tax advantaged space, and to be fair, many don’t earn enough to do that and meet their other obligations.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by JoeRetire »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:18 amMy one concern is, it converts money that could be subject to long term cap gains into money that will be taxed as ordinary income with no match to make up for it
I don't think I understand.

You are talking about traditional 401k money, right?
So if you choose not to put it into your 401k, it gets taxed as ordinary income before you can invest it to get those long term cap gains, right?
Whereas if you put it into your 401k, it's not taxed as ordinary income now, but only later, right?

And do you not have a Roth 401k available?
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
YeahBuddy
Posts: 2483
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by YeahBuddy »

How often do I encounter non bogleheads at work? All the time. Most are spenders, especially the sub 40 year olds. Savers are rare among my colleagues. And none are Bogleheads.
How much effort do I put into the conversation? That is context dependent.
If someone is genuinely curious about saving/investing I may offer advice and continue the conversation only if they seem interested.
Almost all other times I won't discuss it.
Light weight baby!
User avatar
AnnetteLouisan
Posts: 7239
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

JoeRetire wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:34 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:18 amMy one concern is, it converts money that could be subject to long term cap gains into money that will be taxed as ordinary income with no match to make up for it
I don't think I understand.

You are talking about traditional 401k money, right?
So if you choose not to put it into your 401k, it gets taxed as ordinary income before you can invest it to get those long term cap gains, right?
Whereas if you put it into your 401k, it's not taxed as ordinary income now, but only later, right?
Right of course.

You achieve tax deferral on invested amounts today, which is of course valuable.

It’s *gains* that also ultimately get taxed as ordinary income in deferred whereas they are taxed at the (usually lower) cap gains rate in taxable.

That is the nub I see with unmatched catch up contributions. But they are still worth it so I do it. And the way things are going, maybe gains won’t be an issue! Lol.
marcos669
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:50 am
Location: Spain

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by marcos669 »

NYCaviator wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:25 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:36 am
JS-Elcano wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:26 am
NYCaviator wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:25 am This is an extremely interesting thread to read, and my own experiences mirror much of what others have said.

There is no denying that the average American is embarrassingly financially illiterate. We are a consumer and debt driven culture, taught to keep buying. Yes, you can afford that $60,000 SUV on your $70,000 household income if you just extend the payments out to 84 months. Of course you can afford that new $1,200 iPhone, there's a payment plan tailored just for you. You can even "finance" clothes and household essentials using services like Klarma now. We just keep finding new ways to go into debt. Most other countries view debt as a bad thing and a sign of irresponsibility.

All of this - in my opinion - comes down to a complete lack of financial education in schools here in the US. We aren't teaching kids basic skills/concepts like what compound interest is, how interest on debt can snowball over time, why credit cards can be dangerous, etc. That needs to be taught every year, beginning in grade school (at a very basic level) all the way through high school.

While the 401k has been around for quite a while, I believe we are really going to see this financial illiteracy problem manifest itself in the coming decades when more and more people try to retire and realize that social security isn't going to cover their expenses and they didn't save nearly enough during their working years.
Indeed. I am glad I grew up that way. It makes life so much easier. The only exception is the mortgage for a primary residence.
Unfortunately, even in those 'other' countries this standard is erroding and people now take out loans to buy cars (at least in the 'other' Western European country that I am familar with). However, there is also no financial education in schools in other countries, this is not just a failing here in the US.
At least in my experience, Americans are no more financially illiterate than those from other countries, debt is just a lot more available here than almost anywhere else. I can tell you, the country where my parents grew up there is no financial education whatsoever in the public schools (and a far smaller percentage of people go and graduate anyway), but it's also a heck of a lot more difficult to get a loan for any purpose.
I agree with both of you that a lack of financial education in schools isn't special to the US, and to be fair, my experience is really limited to W Europe. Even without a formal financial education in schools though, there's just a fundamental difference in how people deal with and view money when compared to the US. Most Europeans view debt as a bad thing, and people - by and large - live within their means; consumer debt isn't really a thing in most European countries because there is no demand for it. When you grow up like that, chances are you are getting you basic financial education at home. On the other hand if you grow up in a household where your parents buy new cars every couple of years, max out their credit cards, and are up to their eyeballs in debt, you may just think that's normal and if you aren't taught otherwise, you'll probably do the same thing when you're an adult.

The social safety nets in Europe are also a HUGE difference. Where you have a state-funded retirement scheme where contributions are baked into the tax you pay, it's basically set-it and forget-it and there is not as much of a need to educate people on saving for retirement. Contrast that with the US where social security generally isn't enough to live off of, so we're forced to save on our own in these complicated, voluntary retirement accounts. If our kids aren't taught about how that stuff works, they aren't going to be able to comfortably retire.
I don´t think that debt is necesarily view badly on Europe, it may be on Central Europe but is not in Spain for instance (probably similar in other south european countries), in fact a few pages ago another user was talking about how he doesn´t understand how people that earns 70K buys 60K cars, here there are a ton of people making between 25 and 30K (medium to high salary in spain) spending +30K on a new BMW 1 series or whatever looks better than the neighboors car.

As a matter of fact this morning I was reading an article where it said that interest rates on car loans are about 8-9% here where as in other european countries is 4-5%. Also another interesing fact is that average car loan duration was higher than 60 months, in many cases reaching 108 (9 years), I have the feeling a lot of people here don´t ever look at what is the real price of things when they get some loan.

Regarding retirement, i don´t know how is in other countries, but here we have been having some issues paying them because there are a lot or retirees with decent pensions and not enough people paying for them, I have long suspected that my generation (I am 31) is going to have a very basic public pension
Florida Orange
Posts: 1152
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:22 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Florida Orange »

ModifiedDuration wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:53 pm
grogu wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:36 pm
Florida Orange wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:20 am Here's one small example. From a news article recently about financial literacy and the American public. In a survey of thousands of randomly selected adults, one question was "If you deposit $1,000 in a bank account that pays 2% interest per year and you don't touch the money, at the end of one year will you have A) More than $1,000, B) Less than $1,000, C) Exactly $1,000? Most people got the answer wrong.
Can you share a link? I don't doubt your summary, but I would be curious to read the actual survey question and results.
It appears that may not be the actual question (unless the question has been changed).

Below is a link to the quiz.

The first question is:

Suppose you have $100 in a savings account earning 2 percent interest a year. After five years, how much would you have?

The choices were: More than $102; Exactly $102; Less than $102; Don’t know

There are 7 questions on the quiz. As most of you would if taking the exam, I got all 7 correct.

Here are how people in the US have done:

3.2 questions correct
1.6 questions incorrect
2.1 questions “Don’t know”

https://www.finra.org/financial_literacy_quiz
Thank you, ModifiedDuration. I was going from memory and obviously my memory was less than perfect. Thank you for providing better information.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by JoeRetire »

Florida Orange wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:46 am
ModifiedDuration wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:53 pm
grogu wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:36 pm
Florida Orange wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:20 am Here's one small example. From a news article recently about financial literacy and the American public. In a survey of thousands of randomly selected adults, one question was "If you deposit $1,000 in a bank account that pays 2% interest per year and you don't touch the money, at the end of one year will you have A) More than $1,000, B) Less than $1,000, C) Exactly $1,000? Most people got the answer wrong.
Can you share a link? I don't doubt your summary, but I would be curious to read the actual survey question and results.
It appears that may not be the actual question (unless the question has been changed).

Below is a link to the quiz.

The first question is:

Suppose you have $100 in a savings account earning 2 percent interest a year. After five years, how much would you have?

The choices were: More than $102; Exactly $102; Less than $102; Don’t know

There are 7 questions on the quiz. As most of you would if taking the exam, I got all 7 correct.

Here are how people in the US have done:

3.2 questions correct
1.6 questions incorrect
2.1 questions “Don’t know”

https://www.finra.org/financial_literacy_quiz
Thank you, ModifiedDuration. I was going from memory and obviously my memory was less than perfect. Thank you for providing better information.
Where did you read that most people got the answer to the first question wrong?
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
Florida Orange
Posts: 1152
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:22 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Florida Orange »

I'm pretty sure it was a general news publication like Time or Newsweek. I don't think it was a financial publication.
GuyInFL
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:17 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by GuyInFL »

NYCaviator wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:25 am The social safety nets in Europe are also a HUGE difference. Where you have a state-funded retirement scheme where contributions are baked into the tax you pay, it's basically set-it and forget-it and there is not as much of a need to educate people on saving for retirement. Contrast that with the US where social security generally isn't enough to live off of, so we're forced to save on our own in these complicated, voluntary retirement accounts. If our kids aren't taught about how that stuff works, they aren't going to be able to comfortably retire.
This article is dated, but makes an interesting comparison between US and European retirement systems.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewbigg ... 88556463ce
SuzBanyan
Posts: 2008
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:20 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by SuzBanyan »

squirrel1963 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:46 pm
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:09 pm Someone I used to know doesn’t contribute to his 401K but invests through Acorns (if it still exists). For the non-cognoscenti among us, that is the fintech app that rounds up your credit card purchases to the nearest dollar and invests the change.

Update: it still exists and has over 8 million customers.

Other topic: some people do not realize you can start your 401k and IRA catch up contributions in the beginning of the calendar year in which you (expect to) turn 50. In other words, you don’t have to wait until age 50 to be eligible, and since there is no match you do not have to spread the investments out equally throughout the year.
Catch-up contributions are the best thing about turning 50 in my mind :mrgreen:
And we can thank the many people who didn’t start saving for retirement early for creating the need for catch-up contributions to 401k and IRAs. And the many people who have limited savings for healthcare for creating the need for catch-up contributions for HSAs 5 years later. It would be interesting to see whether the ability to make catch-up contributions is used mostly by those already saving or by those who are late to the game.
User avatar
squirrel1963
Posts: 1253
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
Location: Portland OR area

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by squirrel1963 »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:18 am
squirrel1963 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:46 pm
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:09 pm Someone I used to know doesn’t contribute to his 401K but invests through Acorns (if it still exists). For the non-cognoscenti among us, that is the fintech app that rounds up your credit card purchases to the nearest dollar and invests the change.

Update: it still exists and has over 8 million customers.

Other topic: some people do not realize you can start your 401k and IRA catch up contributions in the beginning of the calendar year in which you (expect to) turn 50. In other words, you don’t have to wait until age 50 to be eligible, and since there is no match you do not have to spread the investments out equally throughout the year.
Catch-up contributions are the best thing about turning 50 in my mind :mrgreen:
I’ve gone back and forth about whether to do them, but I’ve maxed them each year I’ve been eligible (more than a few). I’m a good candidate for them since I didn’t invest enough early in life.

My benefits person strongly recommended it, but she says many people don’t do this. My one concern is, it converts money that could be subject to long term cap gains into money that will be taxed as ordinary income with no match to make up for it, but I do it anyway for the creditor protection and current year tax break.

I’ve definitely been told by some coworkers that they can’t afford to max their tax advantaged space, and to be fair, many don’t earn enough to do that and meet their other obligations.
The concern about long term cap gains vs regular income definitely makes a lot of sense. Very few of my coworkers know enough tax laws to even think about these trade offs.

It worked well for me because my total comp was very high, I didn't need the money, and I wanted as much tax deferred space for the TIPS ladder.

In any case, few of my coworkers maxed out 401k contributions, including the ones who could have easily afforded it, most of them just did the company match. In the best case they used the money to save for a house (which of course is a very good thing imho).
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
MHA556
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:01 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by MHA556 »

I will just say this- I wish my own parents had taught me more, I wish the folks who I worked with had been more forceful in their attempts to educate me, and I wish I had listened earlier...

I was in public safety, and a supervisor, I was expected to give lots of good advice- on everything. So I tried, with everyday people, and with coworkers. Some of that was financial advice. I really tried to educate them on how the pension system works, and advise them to supplement that by saving into the 457 plan.

I feel MYOB only goes so far- it leads to lots of problems in society, but in financial terms it means the savers get to help pay for those who do didn’t, so helping them to help themselves actually helps you as well...

If you help one person, you have made a difference, because maybe they help one person as well.


Personally I have also helped educate my wife, improving her retirement planning, and my son as well- he just gets it. My daughter is just a frugal saver type, working on an accounting degree and CPA license in the future, so she will do fine eventually, but right now she just has a stuffed full savings account instead of any investments.

Reality is this- the most difficult conversations usually have the most impact. Or even just enough to pique someone’s interest in learning more, if that is more your speed.


For me- far too many coworkers did not understand how our pension system worked at all, nor how our side accounts worked. And not enough took advantage of the available 457(b) plan - (I didn’t for half of my career either). I saw people make horrible mistakes due to these issues- things like jumping to a new employer, with a different pension plan, so now they just added 5 more years to their minimum retirement age. Or cashing in their contributions, missing out on all the eventual 100% matching funds from our employer. I am fine with people making bad decisions- provided they at least have all the relevant info, so I tried to educate some with that info.


Life is pretty much like this typically- a support staff person (making half or less of what I made) told me about how she got a great deal on a used truck, so many miles, so many years old, etc. And it wasn’t a bad deal at the time, in line with what other used ones were selling for. However, I had just bought a brand new truck of the same model (higher trim line) for quite a bit less than what she paid, because new models were stagnant on the lots and there were a lot of rebates, so it made more sense to get a new one. Numbers don’t lie. But that kind of stuff was common- many people just fumble through life, while others have more of a plan and understanding of how things work. All you can do is try to help move them into the second group, whether they actually move is up to them, but at least I can say I did try...
SteadyOne
Posts: 688
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by SteadyOne »

squirrel1963 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:20 am
SteadyOne wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:40 pm
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:07 pm
lws wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:06 pm What is the root cause of this ignorance?
The switch from the pension system to this mass of complexity we have now? People having other things to do in life besides studying this stuff? People getting burned by a fraudulent broker or reading stories and not trusting the markets?
Yes, as not everyone can be a doctor, not everyone can be an actuary and run an individual pension plan and know and implement all the tax, investment rules, etc. It’s just unworkable for vast majorly of population.
I would agree with this, but in regard to pension plans I also think the current system is wildly complex, and unfortunately far too many 401k plans offer funds with high ER. I think by default everyone should be enrolled at 15% salary contribution with a low cost target date fund, so people who don't know anything would at least be on a reasonable path to retirement
Or have an annuity option. Tons of people I know would love to have a certain cash stream at old age and just get it every month.
“Every de­duc­tion is al­lowed as a mat­ter of leg­isla­tive grace.” US Federal Court
punkinhead
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:02 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by punkinhead »

I don't give financial advice because 90% of it is behavioral and it's unlikely anything I say will change a person's behavior. "Live below your means and save in low cost index funds" isn't what they're looking for. Most people want a magic bullet. It's similar to advice on managing weight. Nobody wants to hear "eat less and exercise". They want a pill or fad diet. I've yet to meet someone in person who had the behavioral side handled and just needed advice on asset allocations, low cost funds, avoiding AUM fees, etc. I've seen those kind of people pop into this forum but I've never met one in real life so I don't waste time discussing finances with friends and acquaintances.
Ivygirl
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Ivygirl »

My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love. A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations (not explicitly examined) of what choices led to what results. But they know perfectly well what will happen if they think too much about money.

Think about this statement: "That guy would give you the shirt off of his back." The level of radical generosity expressed in that statement sounds stupider and stupider to someone the more they have come to value money.

Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads. They'll have more money, but they will no longer be the kind of person who "would give you the shirt off of his back."

I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving. Think about money too much, and you won't do that; you'll only give what you have extra, not the shirt off your back.

I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values. What is needed is a synthesis, a way to be rich but still honor above all that human beings are worth more than money. That's a level above most talk about how to get more money.
punkinhead
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:02 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by punkinhead »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love.
Being responsible with money and planning for a future where you can support yourself without being a burden to others is not a moral failing and I don't know anyone who thinks it is.
KlangFool
Posts: 31426
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by KlangFool »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love. A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations (not explicitly examined) of what choices led to what results. But they know perfectly well what will happen if they think too much about money.

Think about this statement: "That guy would give you the shirt off of his back." The level of radical generosity expressed in that statement sounds stupider and stupider to someone the more they have come to value money.

Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads. They'll have more money, but they will no longer be the kind of person who "would give you the shirt off of his back."

I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving. Think about money too much, and you won't do that; you'll only give what you have extra, not the shirt off your back.

I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values. What is needed is a synthesis, a way to be rich but still honor above all that human beings are worth more than money. That's a level above most talk about how to get more money.
I disagreed. Coming from a culture of people with an average gross saving rate of 30+%, I learned that the generosity of a person has little to do with how much money they have. I had seen selfishness in both rich and poor. Ditto on generosity.

Your post reminded me of "beware of the naked man offering you his clothes"

Money is just a tool to live our lives. It is essential for us to learn how to use the tool.

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
smitcat
Posts: 13227
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by smitcat »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:01 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love. A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations (not explicitly examined) of what choices led to what results. But they know perfectly well what will happen if they think too much about money.

Think about this statement: "That guy would give you the shirt off of his back." The level of radical generosity expressed in that statement sounds stupider and stupider to someone the more they have come to value money.

Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads. They'll have more money, but they will no longer be the kind of person who "would give you the shirt off of his back."

I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving. Think about money too much, and you won't do that; you'll only give what you have extra, not the shirt off your back.

I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values. What is needed is a synthesis, a way to be rich but still honor above all that human beings are worth more than money. That's a level above most talk about how to get more money.
I disagreed. Coming from a culture of people with an average gross saving rate of 30+%, I learned that the generosity of a person has little to do with how much money they have. I had seen selfishness in both rich and poor. Ditto on generosity.

Your post reminded me of "beware of the naked man offering you his clothes"

Money is just a tool to live our lives. It is essential for us to learn how to use the tool.

KlangFool
I agree with KlangFool here .... and there are a number of concerning thoughts by Ivygirl, hope it's just drama and not a real conviction.

"Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love."
"A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations"
"Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads."
"I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving."
"I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values."
KlangFool
Posts: 31426
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by KlangFool »

punkinhead wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:57 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love.
Being responsible with money and planning for a future where you can support yourself without being a burden to others is not a moral failing and I don't know anyone who thinks it is.
punkinhead,

A) There is a word for that: envy. Aka, green eye monster. Aka, if I cannot succeed, you should not be successful either.

Versus

B) If one among us is successful, he/she can help lift the rest of us out of the poverty too.

We, uncles and aunties, pooled our money to sponsor many of our nephews and nieces (not our own kids) to come to the USA for college education. We donated money to provide scholarship and social welfare support for our community.

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Ivygirl
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Ivygirl »

punkinhead wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:57 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love.
Being responsible with money and planning for a future where you can support yourself without being a burden to others is not a moral failing and I don't know anyone who thinks it is.
You made a synthesis. You married the acquisition of money to a higher human value. What you said proved my point I'm pretty sure.

Consider a frequent saying of one personal finance expert who has a lot of success reaching people previously deemed unreachable: "You're changing your family tree." This idea marries acquiring money to the high human good of bettering one's family and indirectly the whole human race.
Ivygirl
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Ivygirl »

smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:48 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:01 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love. A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations (not explicitly examined) of what choices led to what results. But they know perfectly well what will happen if they think too much about money.

Think about this statement: "That guy would give you the shirt off of his back." The level of radical generosity expressed in that statement sounds stupider and stupider to someone the more they have come to value money.

Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads. They'll have more money, but they will no longer be the kind of person who "would give you the shirt off of his back."

I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving. Think about money too much, and you won't do that; you'll only give what you have extra, not the shirt off your back.

I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values. What is needed is a synthesis, a way to be rich but still honor above all that human beings are worth more than money. That's a level above most talk about how to get more money.
I disagreed. Coming from a culture of people with an average gross saving rate of 30+%, I learned that the generosity of a person has little to do with how much money they have. I had seen selfishness in both rich and poor. Ditto on generosity.

Your post reminded me of "beware of the naked man offering you his clothes"

Money is just a tool to live our lives. It is essential for us to learn how to use the tool.

KlangFool
I agree with KlangFool here .... and there are a number of concerning thoughts by Ivygirl, hope it's just drama and not a real conviction.

"Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love."
"A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations"
"Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads."
"I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving."
"I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values."
You can be concerned if you like, but it is real conviction and not drama.

Now discuss.
Ivygirl
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Ivygirl »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:01 am
punkinhead wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:57 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love.
Being responsible with money and planning for a future where you can support yourself without being a burden to others is not a moral failing and I don't know anyone who thinks it is.
punkinhead,

A) There is a word for that: envy. Aka, green eye monster. Aka, if I cannot succeed, you should not be successful either.

Versus

B) If one among us is successful, he/she can help lift the rest of us out of the poverty too.

We, uncles and aunties, pooled our money to sponsor many of our nephews and nieces (not our own kids) to come to the USA for college education. We donated money to provide scholarship and social welfare support for our community.

KlangFool
It might be envy. Or it might be what I said it was.

You'll never know unless you think about it.

Concluding too quickly that it is envy will let you off the hook, it's "those people" who are stupid, or envious, or failures, or too weak to keep up, or low IQ, or "not our set." They are your set. They are the human race. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like they do.

Pooling money to assist family is a perfect example of what I said: a synthesis, where acquiring money is married to a high human value.
smitcat
Posts: 13227
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by smitcat »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:10 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:48 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:01 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love. A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations (not explicitly examined) of what choices led to what results. But they know perfectly well what will happen if they think too much about money.

Think about this statement: "That guy would give you the shirt off of his back." The level of radical generosity expressed in that statement sounds stupider and stupider to someone the more they have come to value money.

Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads. They'll have more money, but they will no longer be the kind of person who "would give you the shirt off of his back."

I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving. Think about money too much, and you won't do that; you'll only give what you have extra, not the shirt off your back.

I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values. What is needed is a synthesis, a way to be rich but still honor above all that human beings are worth more than money. That's a level above most talk about how to get more money.
I disagreed. Coming from a culture of people with an average gross saving rate of 30+%, I learned that the generosity of a person has little to do with how much money they have. I had seen selfishness in both rich and poor. Ditto on generosity.

Your post reminded me of "beware of the naked man offering you his clothes"

Money is just a tool to live our lives. It is essential for us to learn how to use the tool.

KlangFool
I agree with KlangFool here .... and there are a number of concerning thoughts by Ivygirl, hope it's just drama and not a real conviction.

"Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love."
"A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations"
"Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads."
"I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving."
"I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values."
You can be concerned if you like, but it is real conviction and not drama.

Now discuss.
Your post....
"I have observed this in my own life"

Please describe in some detail how much money you acquired in order to experiences these changes. Did it change your relationships with your spouse, any of your kids, your extended family? How specifically did it change the way you interacted with any and all of your charity or volunteer work?
punkinhead
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:02 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by punkinhead »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:09 am
punkinhead wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:57 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love.
Being responsible with money and planning for a future where you can support yourself without being a burden to others is not a moral failing and I don't know anyone who thinks it is.
You made a synthesis. You married the acquisition of money to a higher human value. What you said proved my point I'm pretty sure.
You're making the claim that being responsible with money, or even thinking about money, and valuing other people are mutually exclusive. They're not. Case in point, you're posting on a forum that is fundamentally about discussing money. That doesn't mean you "choose money over love".
KlangFool
Posts: 31426
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by KlangFool »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:14 am
It might be envy. Or it might be what I said it was.

You'll never know unless you think about it.

Concluding too quickly that it is envy will let you off the hook, it's "those people" who are stupid, or envious, or failures, or too weak to keep up, or low IQ, or "not our set." They are your set. They are the human race. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like they do.

Pooling money to assist family is a perfect example of what I said: a synthesis, where acquiring money is married to a high human value.
Ivygirl,

I do not need to think. Action speak louder than words:

A) You have money. Person A avoids you.

B) You have money. Person B ask you to teach him/her how to save and have money.

Person A envy you. Person B want to learn from you. I cannot save and help A unless and until A changes his/her mentality. I can help B to help himself/herself.

Birds of a feather flew together. You should joining a different group of people and help those looking for help.

" where acquiring money is married to a high human value."

You missed my point totally. Acquiring money was never our goal. Our goals were to have the financial freedom to live our lives. Money is just a tool to achieve our goals. Hence, there is a point when we have "enough" money and we stop acquiring more money.

If acquiring money was the only goal, there would be many early retiree among my family members.

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Ivygirl
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Ivygirl »

punkinhead wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:17 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:09 am
punkinhead wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:57 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love.
Being responsible with money and planning for a future where you can support yourself without being a burden to others is not a moral failing and I don't know anyone who thinks it is.
You made a synthesis. You married the acquisition of money to a higher human value. What you said proved my point I'm pretty sure.
You're making the claim that being responsible with money, or even thinking about money, and valuing other people are mutually exclusive. They're not. Case in point, you're posting on a forum that is fundamentally about discussing money. That doesn't mean you "choose money over love".
Thinking about money and valuing other people will be mutually exclusive, unless there is a synthesis that marries the aquisition of money to a higher human value.

I post on this forum and read it because I am a philosopher, the practical kind, and money is a problem I need to solve. I don't want to solve just how to get more of it. I am more than money, and so are all of you.
Ivygirl
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Ivygirl »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:23 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:14 am
It might be envy. Or it might be what I said it was.

You'll never know unless you think about it.

Concluding too quickly that it is envy will let you off the hook, it's "those people" who are stupid, or envious, or failures, or too weak to keep up, or low IQ, or "not our set." They are your set. They are the human race. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like they do.

Pooling money to assist family is a perfect example of what I said: a synthesis, where acquiring money is married to a high human value.
Ivygirl,

I do not need to think. Action speak louder than words:

A) You have money. Person A avoids you.

B) You have money. Person B ask you to teach him/her how to save and have money.

Person A envy you. Person B want to learn from you. I cannot save and help A unless and until A changes his/her mentality. I can help B to help himself/herself.

Birds of a feather flew together. You should joining a different group of people and help those looking for help.

" where acquiring money is married to a high human value."

You missed my point totally. Acquiring money was never our goal. Our goals were to have the financial freedom to live our lives. Money is just a tool to achieve our goals. Hence, there is a point when we have "enough" money and we stop acquiring more money.

If acquiring money was the only goal, there would be many early retiree among my family members.

KlangFool
There are more choices than A and B you know.
Ivygirl
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Ivygirl »

smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:15 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:10 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:48 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:01 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.

Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love. A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations (not explicitly examined) of what choices led to what results. But they know perfectly well what will happen if they think too much about money.

Think about this statement: "That guy would give you the shirt off of his back." The level of radical generosity expressed in that statement sounds stupider and stupider to someone the more they have come to value money.

Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads. They'll have more money, but they will no longer be the kind of person who "would give you the shirt off of his back."

I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving. Think about money too much, and you won't do that; you'll only give what you have extra, not the shirt off your back.

I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values. What is needed is a synthesis, a way to be rich but still honor above all that human beings are worth more than money. That's a level above most talk about how to get more money.
I disagreed. Coming from a culture of people with an average gross saving rate of 30+%, I learned that the generosity of a person has little to do with how much money they have. I had seen selfishness in both rich and poor. Ditto on generosity.

Your post reminded me of "beware of the naked man offering you his clothes"

Money is just a tool to live our lives. It is essential for us to learn how to use the tool.

KlangFool
I agree with KlangFool here .... and there are a number of concerning thoughts by Ivygirl, hope it's just drama and not a real conviction.

"Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love."
"A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations"
"Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads."
"I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving."
"I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values."
You can be concerned if you like, but it is real conviction and not drama.

Now discuss.
Your post....
"I have observed this in my own life"

Please describe in some detail how much money you acquired in order to experiences these changes. Did it change your relationships with your spouse, any of your kids, your extended family? How specifically did it change the way you interacted with any and all of your charity or volunteer work?
What you really want is for me to be quiet I think. You began by speaking, not to me, but to the others, attempting to get protection from the idea by trying to build a consensus that my idea is "concerning," "drama," and "not a real conviction."

I think now you want me to produce some self-revelation that will lead away from the idea and into the weeds of personality.

If my idea is true or false, it can be discussed on its own merit.
smitcat
Posts: 13227
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by smitcat »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:35 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:15 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:10 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:48 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:01 am

I disagreed. Coming from a culture of people with an average gross saving rate of 30+%, I learned that the generosity of a person has little to do with how much money they have. I had seen selfishness in both rich and poor. Ditto on generosity.

Your post reminded me of "beware of the naked man offering you his clothes"

Money is just a tool to live our lives. It is essential for us to learn how to use the tool.

KlangFool
I agree with KlangFool here .... and there are a number of concerning thoughts by Ivygirl, hope it's just drama and not a real conviction.

"Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love."
"A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations"
"Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads."
"I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving."
"I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values."
You can be concerned if you like, but it is real conviction and not drama.

Now discuss.
Your post....
"I have observed this in my own life"

Please describe in some detail how much money you acquired in order to experiences these changes. Did it change your relationships with your spouse, any of your kids, your extended family? How specifically did it change the way you interacted with any and all of your charity or volunteer work?
What you really want is for me to be quiet I think. You began by speaking, not to me, but to the others, attempting to get protection from the idea by trying to build a consensus that my idea is "concerning," "drama," and "not a real conviction."

I think now you want me to produce some self-revelation that will lead away from the idea and into the weeds of personality.

If my idea is true or false, it can be discussed on its own merit.
I asked questions as I did not know the answers - you had said you observed these things in your own life. Did you really have any life experiences similar to your posts? Then please share them ....
Last edited by smitcat on Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
KlangFool
Posts: 31426
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by KlangFool »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:28 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:23 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:14 am
It might be envy. Or it might be what I said it was.

You'll never know unless you think about it.

Concluding too quickly that it is envy will let you off the hook, it's "those people" who are stupid, or envious, or failures, or too weak to keep up, or low IQ, or "not our set." They are your set. They are the human race. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like they do.

Pooling money to assist family is a perfect example of what I said: a synthesis, where acquiring money is married to a high human value.
Ivygirl,

I do not need to think. Action speak louder than words:

A) You have money. Person A avoids you.

B) You have money. Person B ask you to teach him/her how to save and have money.

Person A envy you. Person B want to learn from you. I cannot save and help A unless and until A changes his/her mentality. I can help B to help himself/herself.

Birds of a feather flew together. You should joining a different group of people and help those looking for help.

" where acquiring money is married to a high human value."

You missed my point totally. Acquiring money was never our goal. Our goals were to have the financial freedom to live our lives. Money is just a tool to achieve our goals. Hence, there is a point when we have "enough" money and we stop acquiring more money.

If acquiring money was the only goal, there would be many early retiree among my family members.

KlangFool
There are more choices than A and B you know.
Ivygirl,

The question here is do you know this.

This was straight from your own post. You claimed that people avoid you because you have money and you think about money. Are you changing your mind now?

"Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love. "

Thinking about money is not necessary about choosing money over other value. And, only folks that think like this would avoid someone because they have money.

KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
smitcat
Posts: 13227
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by smitcat »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:28 am
KlangFool wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:23 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:14 am
It might be envy. Or it might be what I said it was.

You'll never know unless you think about it.

Concluding too quickly that it is envy will let you off the hook, it's "those people" who are stupid, or envious, or failures, or too weak to keep up, or low IQ, or "not our set." They are your set. They are the human race. You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like they do.

Pooling money to assist family is a perfect example of what I said: a synthesis, where acquiring money is married to a high human value.
Ivygirl,

I do not need to think. Action speak louder than words:

A) You have money. Person A avoids you.

B) You have money. Person B ask you to teach him/her how to save and have money.

Person A envy you. Person B want to learn from you. I cannot save and help A unless and until A changes his/her mentality. I can help B to help himself/herself.

Birds of a feather flew together. You should joining a different group of people and help those looking for help.

" where acquiring money is married to a high human value."

You missed my point totally. Acquiring money was never our goal. Our goals were to have the financial freedom to live our lives. Money is just a tool to achieve our goals. Hence, there is a point when we have "enough" money and we stop acquiring more money.

If acquiring money was the only goal, there would be many early retiree among my family members.

KlangFool
There are more choices than A and B you know.
Ivygirl....I can see that your life has been quite different than anything I have experienced. If you look k for the darkest side of things, you are much more likely to find them....
Here is one of your past posts....


"Ivygirl
These have been some of the results, when I have tried:

I have a sibling who is in debt and has never saved, a real grasshopper. She was delighted to learn that I was saving for retirement... I had to make it clear that I was not saving for two, and she had to get her own. She pouted and treated me coldly for awhile. (Before that, her idea was that I should buy a duplex so she could live in the other half and "pay me rent.")

I had to explain to another sibling just last weekend why I thought it morally defensible to invest in the stock market. I said, the market is buying and selling. The market is the world. If it's morally defensible to live in the world, then it's morally defensible to buy a stock index. (Her husband gets very generous government pensions; I have a 401(k) with a tiny match, and an IRA. We live in two very different financial universes.)

After discussing my goals with my parent, she sent me a pity check for $50. Um... okay Mom. Not what I was really expecting. You do understand, Mom, that I do have money, it's just going into savings and investments?

Seems people are either in debt, have black-magical ideas about investing, think my money should be their money, or want to patronize me with their wise advice. It seems an honest conversation is impossible, there is too much at stake for most people."
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by stoptothink »

smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:38 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:35 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:15 am
Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:10 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:48 am

I agree with KlangFool here .... and there are a number of concerning thoughts by Ivygirl, hope it's just drama and not a real conviction.

"Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love."
"A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations"
"Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads."
"I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving."
"I have observed this in my own life. Other people used to like me and trust me more. Now they withdraw and give their confidence to each other, who are just as broke but share their values."
You can be concerned if you like, but it is real conviction and not drama.

Now discuss.
Your post....
"I have observed this in my own life"

Please describe in some detail how much money you acquired in order to experiences these changes. Did it change your relationships with your spouse, any of your kids, your extended family? How specifically did it change the way you interacted with any and all of your charity or volunteer work?
What you really want is for me to be quiet I think. You began by speaking, not to me, but to the others, attempting to get protection from the idea by trying to build a consensus that my idea is "concerning," "drama," and "not a real conviction."

I think now you want me to produce some self-revelation that will lead away from the idea and into the weeds of personality.

If my idea is true or false, it can be discussed on its own merit.
I asked questions as I did not know the answers - you had said you observed these things in your own life. Did you really have any life experiences similar to your posts? Then please share them ....
I'll be another dissenting voice; my life experience, as well, could not be more different than Ivygirl's.
User avatar
oldcomputerguy
Moderator
Posts: 17878
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:50 am
Location: Tennessee

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by oldcomputerguy »

The discussion has drifted way, way off from the original topic (financial literacy). As a reminder, see Acceptable Topics and Subforum Guidelines:
This is an investing and personal finance forum. We also maintain a subforum that allow our members to discuss consumer goods and services and recreational activities. Anything else is considered "Off Topic" and is not acceptable on this forum.
Let's please bring the discussion back to the original (financial) topic and away from life philosophy. Thanks.
There is only one success - to be able to spend your life in your own way. (Christopher Morley)
Nver2Late
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:30 am

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Nver2Late »

I've come to Bogleheads late in my investment career and find it, much like when I first read "Millionaire Next Door", to be an affirmation of what I've done in the past. 100% total stock market, low cost, long term investing. I've found Bogleheads very helpful in the last few years in learning about and adding fixed income to my portfolio as I prepare for retirement.

Over the years, discussions with my coworkers, specifically 3 of them, were my Bogleheads. We had very different investment strategies (1 was a real estate guy, he nailed 2008; one was a 100% individual stock guy holding a diversified 65 to 75 individual positions; one was a low cost index guy like myself but had about half his retirement portfolio actively managed by Fidelity). These conversations over the years especially during the dot com and 2008 challenging times, were of great value for each of us providing support and learning about each others approaches, successes, and mistakes.

None of my other coworkers were interested which is fine, everyone has their personal interests and what they feel comfortable sharing. Some just don't really want to have to deal with money, investments or finances. However, when you find good friends who do have that common interest, all can learn and help each other succeed.
"Better is the enemy of good." Good is good.
User avatar
WoodSpinner
Posts: 3499
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:15 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by WoodSpinner »

Ivygirl wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:48 am My own opinion is, that quite a lot of the resistance to thinking about money, with the intensity required to master it, is because intuitively people know that it will harm their values.
From my perspective there is a very big difference between knowing enough to understand your goals, priorities and make prudent financial decisions that align and harming your values.
Thinking about money - choosing money over other values - really will turn you into a person who chooses money over love.
That seems a stretch — my suggestion is that you align your goals and priorities with your financial decisions.
A large number of the population is intuitive - choosing direction rather like fishes do in a school with instinct wisdom built up from unexamined observations (not explicitly examined) of what choices led to what results.
Unfortunately, intuitively decisions are rarely optimal and often do not align with your priorities and goals. Learning how to make good decisions is a skill which requires a framework for analysis and review.
Maybe the inchoate resistance or judgment some of you are getting back, when you try to educate others about money, is that they know very well where it leads. They'll have more money, but they will no longer be the kind of person who "would give you the shirt off of his back."
I frame it differently, learning to make better financial decisions helps you align your priorities and goals. There are a small circle of people who “I will give the shirt off my back for”, but it’s carefully curated. It’s definitely a different priority than other cultures (e.g. traditional Navajo, Bhuddism etc.) but it aligns with my values.
I think many of us secretly cherish the idea that we are capable of magnanimous acts of self-forgetfulness and self-giving. Think about money too much, and you won't do that; you'll only give what you have extra, not the shirt off your back.
Can you back this thought up a bit and help me better understand your intent? I don’t really get your thinking. Perhaps an example?

WoodSpinner
WoodSpinner
Broken Man 1999
Posts: 8620
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:31 am
Location: West coast of Florida, near Champa Bay !

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Financial ignorance is an added tax on your finances.

The nice thing is you get to decide how much you have to pay. Learn and keep more of your earnings. Eschew learning and your financial ignorance tax will continue.

I was willing to answer questions and tell people how I invest, but that was the extent of my conversations. Frankly, I never felt the effort was worth my time and energy. Many people aren't looking for real answers, they are simply looking for rationale for what they are already doing.

The saying , "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" assumes you can lead a horse to water, not always possible. Some folks can't be lead anywhere.

I have had much better success with family members.

Broken Man
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
helloeveryone
Posts: 1283
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by helloeveryone »

upstate90 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:17 am
the_wiki wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:14 am Just talking with a family member tonight who said:

“We stopped contributing to 401k because the market is down”

They are 15+ years from retirement. :oops:
Yeah its painful to hear sometimes, I've told co workers closer to my age who complain about the market to just think about it like they're getting a discount on stocks and they will get more for their money. Some get it. If people just spent a few hours researching these things they could save years of their lives working.
For those who say to avoid it entirely I would say that talking about it but not overdoing it or being pushy or being “know it all” will turn some folks to BH and actually make a difference in their life. I was 6 years into my job when someone just briefly mentioned some tips about 401k, compounding, staying the course. And that person said you should check out the bogleheads forum. That made a tremendous difference in our financial journey
helloeveryone
Posts: 1283
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by helloeveryone »

upstate90 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:17 am
the_wiki wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:14 am Just talking with a family member tonight who said:

“We stopped contributing to 401k because the market is down”

They are 15+ years from retirement. :oops:
Yeah its painful to hear sometimes, I've told co workers closer to my age who complain about the market to just think about it like they're getting a discount on stocks and they will get more for their money. Some get it. If people just spent a few hours researching these things they could save years of their lives working.
For those who say to avoid it entirely I would say that talking about it but not overdoing it or being pushy or being “know it all” will turn some folks to BH and actually make a difference in their life. I was 6 years into my job when someone just briefly mentioned some tips about 401k, compounding, staying the course. And that person said you should check out the bogleheads forum. That made a tremendous difference in our financial journey
Alex Frakt
Founder
Posts: 11589
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:06 pm
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Conversation with co workers/ financial literacy among non-boglehead types

Post by Alex Frakt »

Locked. The thread is off-topic for this forum because it's really not about investing, it's about psychology and education and social interaction and a bunch of other things. Investing is just the backdrop. Any other topic could be used instead. Indeed many of the posts are on personal finance issues rather than investing issues.

It has also resulted in multiple violations of our prohibition on:
discussions of the crimes, shortcomings or stupidity of other people, whether they be political figures, celebrities, CEOs, Fed chairmen, subprime mortgage borrowers, lottery winners, federal "bailout" recipients, poor people, rich people, etc. Of course, you are welcome to talk about the stupid financial things you have done.
Locked