Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

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mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ResearchMed »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.

IANAL, but the Agent is representing one of the principals.

IF this is correct, then this provides such easy work-arounds for any binding arbitration: Just designate someone with your POA authorization, and have them go at it for you. That can't be possible on such broad grounds... can it?

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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

ResearchMed wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:41 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.

IANAL, but the Agent is representing one of the principals.

IF this is correct, then this provides such easy work-arounds for any binding arbitration: Just designate someone with your POA authorization, and have them go at it for you. That can't be possible on such broad grounds... can it?

RM
The cause of action is the banks refusal to honor a power. The remedy is declaratory relief. The uniform act gives the agent statutory damages.

It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.
An attorney in fact stands in the shoes of the principal, any agreement that applies to the principal also applies to the attorney in fact.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:54 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:28 pm A third party is not subject to the agreement signed by the principals. If the state law gives the cause of action to the attorney in fact, the bank has no ability to invoke the arbitration clause. Nevertheless, the arbitrator will still rule in the customers favor.
To what third party are you referring?
The attorney in fact did not sign the contract.
An attorney in fact stands in the shoes of the principal, any agreement that applies to the principal also applies to the attorney in fact.
Only if the bank actually honored the poa.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

ResearchMed wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:41 pm IF this is correct, then this provides such easy work-arounds for any binding arbitration: Just designate someone with your POA authorization, and have them go at it for you. That can't be possible on such broad grounds... can it?
No, it cannot be possible.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
The suit to enforce the law has nothing to do with the agreement. Please stop arguing.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm Only if the bank actually honored the poa.
Not true, the attorney in fact always stands in the shoes of the principal. The attorney in fact can never have any rights that are independent of the principal.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:57 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
The suit to enforce the law has nothing to do with the agreement. Please stop arguing.
Yes, it does, it has everything to do with the agreement because the customer signed the agreement and agreed to mandatory binding arbitration that prevents a lawsuit from going forward.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:59 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:57 pm
mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:46 pm It has nothing to do with the depository agreement.
It has everything to do with the depository agreement.
The suit to enforce the law has nothing to do with the agreement. Please stop arguing.
Yes, it does, it has everything to do with the agreement because the customer signed the agreement and agreed to mandatory binding arbitration that prevents a lawsuit from going forward.
Please cite the case law.
Last edited by Lee_WSP on Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:01 pm Please cite the case law. Because this is civ pro 1 level nonsense.
It's not nonsense, it's the current state of the law. I don't think it's fair or right, but it is. And I've personally litigated this issue.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

mptfan wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:03 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:01 pm Please cite the case law. Because this is civ pro 1 level nonsense.
It's not nonsense, it's the current state of the law. I don't think it's fair or right, but it is. And I've personally litigated this issue.
If your state doesn’t have the uniform power of attorney act, you are stuck. It’s never worth litigating it. If it does, it gives you a different cause of action.

In fact, without the uniform act, I’m not even sure what cause of action the agent has other than breach of contract which won’t go anywhere.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by BSBHead »

For Wells Fargo, I provided the statute to them with my POA and it was blessed by their legal when I took over a family members account. POA rules can be state specific, but their forms are lowest common denominator.


quote=Lee_WSP post_id=6729291 time=1655328695 user_id=147765]
Luckywon wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:28 pm
Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:59 pm I'm concerned about my Vanguard accounts, since their POA form only lets you name one person as POA. What if I become incapacitated and then something happens to my POA and there are no contingent POAs?
Titling an account to a RLT (assuming this is not a retirement account) is one way to address succession of powers with more flexibility.
Not with Wells Fargo. Just saying.

edit: They routinely ignore trustee succession if that was unclear.
[/quote]
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

BSBHead wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:10 pm For Wells Fargo, I provided the statute to them with my POA and it was blessed by their legal when I took over a family members account. POA rules can be state specific, but their forms are lowest common denominator.


Having the statute enacted makes all the difference in the world. Even with Wells Fargo.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by jello77 »

Fremdon Ferndock wrote:

How exactly can you submit your POA to Vanguard and what evidence do they provide to indicate whether they've accepted it?

My primary concern with the Vanguard in-house POA or "agent" authorization form is that it's not really a durable POA. If I become incapacitated and my "agent" is unable to serve there's no way another agent can step in because I would be unable to appoint one. Major flaw.

As far as I can determine, Vanguard's online "POA" form is really not a POA -- it is more properly called an "Agent Authorization" that gives account access rights to a named individual. Some problems with this I can see are:

— you cannot name contingent "agents" who can replace the primary agent if necessary. What if I'm incapacitated and my "agent" dies or is incapacitated?

you cannot name multiple individuals who can act either independently or jointly

— the agent's authority is granted immediately, not contingently based on the owner's incapacity

Based on my recent experience, the statements marked in RED above are not correct.

What I found is:

— Vanguard’s Full Agent Authorization form is a full & legal POA that is durable meaning it's valid both before & during incapacity.

— Although the Vanguard POA form has room for only one agent, multiple forms can be submitted to allow multiple persons to serve as independent co-agents.

I used the Vanguard form to name 3 relatives as independent co-agents for my account.

The arrangement is exactly what I want, but others might find the results unsuitable.

Information below might be helpful to others.


===============


On a POA prepared by a lawyer, multiple agents can be named using one of 3 methods.

Successor agents: one person is primary agent and additional persons are backups if primary is unable to act.

Joint co-agents: all agents must sign any needed document.

Independent co-agents: only one agent is needed to authorized any action or sign a document.

For my Vanguard POA, I wanted to name 3 relatives as independent co-agents.

For many people, this is the best arrangement because:

— Whichever agent is available when the need arises will have full authority.

— Unlike with joint agents, there’s no need to get signatures from all agents.

— Unlike with successor agents, there’s no need to prepare additional paperwork to explain why a primary agent is unable to act and to authorize a successor agent to now take control.


===============


The Vanguard POA form is named: Full Agent Authorization.

Page 1 of the form has this text:
  • This Full Agent Authorization will be a Durable Power of Attorney under Pennsylvania law,
Vanguard is based in Pennsylvania, but the POA is valid for your Vanguard account regardless of where you live.

The POA is effective immediately and continues if you become incapacitated.

For most people, an immediate POA is the preferred arrangement. A "springing" POA is only available during incapacity. It requires a signed statement from a doctor which can cause problems and delays. In a "borderline" case, for liability reasons a doctor might be reluctant to sign an incapacity statement. Laws regarding privacy of medical records can also cause problems getting an incapacity statement.

The Vanguard POA also has this text:
  • Use this document to grant one or more agents … full authority to act on your accounts.
The form has room to name only one agent.

But this text also appears:
  • If you're naming more than one agent, copy this section for each agent to complete, sign, and mail with this document. Once we process this authorization, we'll require the signature of only one of the agents on written transaction requests unless you notify us otherwise in writing. Phone and online requests can be made by any one of the agents.
This means you can name multiple agents, but the agents will be independent co-agents.

You can’t use the Vanguard POA form if:

— You want to use successor agents or joint co-agents.

— You want a non-durable POA that is not effective during incapacity.

— You want a springing POA that’s only effective during incapacity.

As others have posted, some companies (such as Schwab & Fidelity) will accept a POA prepared by a lawyer, but Vanguard apparently will not.


===============


Vanguard no longer has a copy of the Full Agent Authorization form available to view online or to download & fill out manually.

It must now be filled out using a multi-step online process.

However, a 2015 version of form (similar to the current version) can be seen here:

https://www.uslegalforms.com/jsfiller-d ... cc56658ed8


To prepare the form, these steps are needed:

(1) Fill out form online:

— Go here: https://investor.vanguard.com/search/?q ... y=ELFForms

— Click on: Add or Remove Access to your Account

— Click on: Complete Online


(2) Print the form.

(3) Account owner signs & notarizes with 2 witnesses.

(4) Each agent must sign on or after notarization date.

(5) Mail form to Vanguard. Must be received within 30 days of notarization date.


===============


After Vanguard accepts the POA, account holder & each agent receives a confirmation letter.

On web site, names of POA agents can be viewed by going here:

— in top menu bar, go to: My Accounts / Profile & account settings

—under Security profile, click on: Account permissions

If any of your agents already have a Vanguard account, your full account information will appear when the agent signs on to his account.

If an agent does not have Vanguard account, he can create one with his own password. He does not need to add any funds to his account. But he will have full access to your account using his own password.

Some people will view this arrangement as desirable because it allows any agent to view & fully manage your account at any time without needing your password.

But for privacy reasons, some people might find this arrangement unsuitable because it immediately reveals your full account information to POA agents.

Some financial institutions (such as TIAA) require a POA agent to use the account holder’s password to access the account.

I have a password list that POA agent can access only if I become incapacitated. He must come to my residence to get the list. Until then, agent does not know any details about my TIAA account.

I don’t mind my POA agents having immediate access to all details about my Vanguard account.

But for some people this might be a deal breaker.

.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Our POAs are for our daughters.

One DD has the finance POA (actually the Vanguard full agent authorization). She has been instructed to continuously "look over our shoulders" and challenge us if she sees activities that are not regular and routine, like a large distribution from our TIRAs.

I was unaware one could have more than one agent at Vanguard. Learn something new every day!

She also is the trusted contact person Vanguard could contact if needed.

From Vanguard:
Having a trusted contact will help protect your assets. Just like an emergency contact, that person should be able to provide an informed and objective assessment about your wellbeing and health status.

Another daughter has DW's living will and health proxy duties. I'm not very mobile and we live in the age of communications of voice and video. We all have iPhones and often have Facetime calls with each other. Getting me to DW's side at a hospital would be a time-consuming activity, and my presence wouldn't add anything useful for DW's care.

We are fortunate to have DDs we literally trust with our lives and portfolio.

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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by FBN2014 »

Our attorney told us not to use a springing POA because she has seen too many problems with using it. The POA has to get a doctor to certify your incapacity and that takes too long. Have a POA in place before you need it and only designate a person that you trust 100%.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ncbill »

RetiredArtist wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:55 am
UpperNwGuy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:01 pm
RetiredArtist wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:06 pm Our POA's were rejected 90% of the time. Everyone wants you to fill out their form. Same for Medical POA's.
Who is rejecting your medical POAs?
Our relatives' lawyer had provided Medical POA's naming us.
Their medical provider (Kaiser) would not accept them. It was less trouble to fill out the Kaiser POA form than pay the lawyer to argue. The mobile notary was a frequent visitor.
Did your relatives use their state's model form for health care power of attorney (HCPOA) or was it something more generic?

IMHO, those in the USA should always use their respective state's model health care POA...some have very specific requirements.

IIRC, there is or was at least one state that required essentially two HCPOAs...one for what I'd call 'regular' medical decisions, the other for witholding/withdrawing 'life-sustaining' care...e.g. ventilator, feeding tube, IV antibiotics.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by afan »

No matter who might win, let alone under which legal theory, in a fight over a POA, I think we all agree we would prefer to avoid the fees, hassle and delay of taking an institution to court.

Annoying as it may be that they will not accept ones DPOA, it is better to use their form than to plan to put the person who is trying to help through a legal case. Let alone spending down your assets on the contest.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Lee_WSP »

If the institution doesn't accept it and your state doesn't have the uniform power of attorney act, then your only option is a conservatorship.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by OnTrack »

What I find really annoying is that the form the medical insurance company I deal with to authorize another person to communicate on the patient's behalf must be renewed every year. And even if the form has been submitted, the customer service representatives seem to never be able to confirm that the form is on file (even though it is on file).
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ResearchMed
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ResearchMed »

OnTrack wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:18 pm What I find really annoying is that the form the medical insurance company I deal with to authorize another person to communicate on the patient's behalf must be renewed every year. And even if the form has been submitted, the customer service representatives seem to never be able to confirm that the form is on file (even though it is on file).

How can anyone require that such a document be renewed? If it is a POA, especially a DPOA, it's meant to be used after the person is no longer competent... so they could not possibly execute a new one every year.

:confused

Whether the organization can find it is a different matter. Once that was a concern, I'd get a document from them acknowledging receipt.

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Fremdon Ferndock
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Vanguard won't accept an attorney-prepared DPOA -- or will they?

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I was recently told in a phone call to Vanguard that they would not accept my attorney-prepared durable power of attorney (DPOA); instead they will only honor their own Agent Authorization form, which grants the immediate right to an individual to access my accounts, but does not provide for "successor agents" or joint agents or other contingencies that are often desirable inclusions in one's DPOA.

However, I just ran across this in Vanguard's Forms and Literature section.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/litful ... &subCat2=

There is a form titled: Report of Incapacity. Here's a description:
As an agent, you'll be given access to all eligible Vanguard accounts for the incapacitated person. For Vanguard, the term “incapacity” is defined as the inability, due to mental or physical illness/disability, of an account owner to appoint an agent by signing our Agent Authorization form.

Important: At the end of this process, you'll need to provide us with this documentation.
A complete copy of a valid durable financial power of attorney authorizing the agent(s) to act on the account owner’s behalf.
A physician’s certification of the account owner’s incapacity on the Vanguard Report of Incapacity form.
According to this, Vanguard will apparently accept an attorney-prepared DPOA, along with a physician's report of incapacity, which effectively allows for a "springing" attorney-prepared DPOA, which would allow access to my accounts in the event of my incapacity, without the need to submit an Agent Authorization form to Vanguard allowing immediate access to my accounts by multiple (primary and contingent) agents.

This is the first I've run across this. It could meet my objective of being able to utilize my current attorney-prepared DPOA to implement my desired arrangement, which provides for a primary DPOA and contingent DPOAs.

Is anyone familiar with this Vanguard Report of Incapacity form/process or has utilized it to apply power of attorney to someone's Vanguard account? I'd like to be able to rely on this instead of submitting multiple Agent Authorization forms to Vanguard to allow all my prospective agents full and equal access to my accounts immediately.
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Re: Vanguard won't accept an attorney-prepared DPOA -- or will they?

Post by Steady59 »

Another victim of Vanguard's degraded service model into the "team" concept.

I went through similar issues when I tried to get my sister and me set up as successor trustees on a trust because our mother could no longer serve. It took 6 months of going back and forth and I never spoke to the same person twice so it was like starting over on each phone call (we used to have Flagship status which was awesome). I had to provide a letter from her doc, a copy of the POA and a change of trustee form. When they incorrectly changed the EIN on the 30 year old irrevocable trust to my sister's SSN, they would not own that mistake nor would they confirm or deny to me what they had on file for the EIN even though I was a trustee (I could tell by the last 4 digits on the tax form what it was). That was "privileged" information - not sure to whom. I had to request an EIN change for it to be corrected. Very frustrating.

There were other issues as well all compounded by a customer service team that just isn't trained correctly. Its not really their fault. That's a leadership and management issue.

I moved the accounts to Fidelity and haven't looked back.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

I moved Fremdon Ferndock's thread into the ongoing discussion.

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to this thread.)

I had previously moved my accounts from Vanguard to Fidelity earlier this year. The only accounts remaining at Vanguard were my Mom's, which I was managing with full agent authorization. The new $20 / account / year was the last straw.

It's not the fee itself, but the annoyance. Vanguard clearly states that changing her account to a brokerage risks me having to get new POA authorizations. My Mom is unable to sign any documents, hence my POA. On top of that, I don't have much confidence that I'll be able to turn off paper statements (must be done as POA via a phone call) which is the second condition for removing the $20 fee. So, either do nothing or move to Fidelity.

I started the process moving her accounts to Fidelity. The first step is to establish my POA. Fidelity's website only lists Durable POAs. My POA is a Standby POA with the requisite supplied physician's statements which allow me to act on my Mom's behalf.

I emailed my local Fidelity rep and got a response within a few hours. The email supplied a secure website for uploading the documents. The Fidelity legal team will review my POA and provide a decision within 48 hours.

(I'm not using the rep to manage my investments, but they are very helpful in situations like this. It pays to keep in touch.)
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by HomeStretch »

Consider rethinking your plan to wait until you are incapacitated for your attorney-in-fact to get Vanguard to timely recognize your attorney-drafted DPOA in the manner described in your 8/29 post. IMO the cons of the plan outweigh the pros. Consider having both the attorney-drafted DPOA and the financial institution’s agent authorization in place.

As the grantor of a power-of-attorney (POA), a “springing” POA may be attractive as it can only be used if a medical expert certifies the incapacitation. However, having experienced first-hand over the last 10 years the obstacles, limitations and delays that various financial institutions (including Vanguard) create for on an attorney-in-fact (AIF), there is no way I would ever inflict a “springing” POA on my AIF. Especially one that the AIF has to have recognized by the financial institution after I am incapacitated.

Envision the issues that could arise while someone is incapacitated and their AIF is trying to get up-to-speed on and manage the grantor’s financial matters while having a doctor certify the grantor’s incapacitation while (perhaps) simultaneously trying to visit rehab places for grantor, deal with doctors, keep the house maintained, etc.
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Re: Vanguard won't accept an attorney-prepared DPOA -- or will they?

Post by mkc »

Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:29 am
However, I just ran across this in Vanguard's Forms and Literature section.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/litful ... &subCat2=

There is a form titled: Report of Incapacity. Here's a description:
As an agent, you'll be given access to all eligible Vanguard accounts for the incapacitated person. For Vanguard, the term “incapacity” is defined as the inability, due to mental or physical illness/disability, of an account owner to appoint an agent by signing our Agent Authorization form.
<snip>

Is anyone familiar with this Vanguard Report of Incapacity form/process or has utilized it to apply power of attorney to someone's Vanguard account? I'd like to be able to rely on this instead of submitting multiple Agent Authorization forms to Vanguard to allow all my prospective agents full and equal access to my accounts immediately.
I did use "Agent for an Incapacitated Person" for a parent's account from 2013-2020. If nothing has changed since then, there was an annoying limitation on such an account. You cannot ACH/EFT/Wire funds from owner's account to any bank account that is held joint with another individual. VG will only mail paper checks, made out to account owner only and sent to the owner's mailing address, if they don't have a linked bank account with only the owner's name on the account. It usually took a week back then for an RMD check to arrive, and then I could deposit it in the joint account used for parent's expenses.

I was also unable to turn off some of the paper communications that were sent to the account owner's mailing address of record and the duplicates sent to me as "interested party".

BTW it took about 6 weeks back then to get authorized on the account.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by TN_Boy »

HomeStretch wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:37 pm Consider rethinking your plan to wait until you are incapacitated for your attorney-in-fact to get Vanguard to timely recognize your attorney-drafted DPOA in the manner described in your 8/29 post. IMO the cons of the plan outweigh the pros. Consider having both the attorney-drafted DPOA and the financial institution’s agent authorization in place.

As the grantor of a power-of-attorney (POA), a “springing” POA may be attractive as it can only be used if a medical expert certifies the incapacitation. However, having experienced first-hand over the last 10 years the obstacles, limitations and delays that various financial institutions (including Vanguard) create for on an attorney-in-fact (AIF), there is no way I would ever inflict a “springing” POA on my AIF. Especially one that the AIF has to have recognized by the financial institution after I am incapacitated.

Envision the issues that could arise while someone is incapacitated and their AIF is trying to get up-to-speed on and manage the grantor’s financial matters while having a doctor certify the grantor’s incapacitation while (perhaps) simultaneously trying to visit rehab places for grantor, deal with doctors, keep the house maintained, etc.
It's not just Vanguard. You might find, as I did, that brick and mortar banks may wish to have their own "POA like" paperwork filled out, over and above any standard POA. It would have been a royal mess for me to try and legally* deal with financial matters of the relative who affairs I took over if I had to sort out a springing POA. I don't know, for example, what the bank would have done with that? Think about it for a few weeks while I had to pay bills out of my own pocket?

Or the situation where my relative was not deemed incompetent yet, but merely confused and due to hospital stays effectively unable to manage their financial affairs. Gee, someone ought to pay the bills. Oh wait, my springing POA is not triggered. Darn.

I'm sure there are situations where a springing POA is a good idea, but the "standard aging relative needs help" situations that I have experienced ... no. Take pity upon those who need to help you later.

*I mean, I could and perhaps did (maybe, not saying ....) simply log onto to relevant online accounts and do what needed to be done, but I'd rather have all the I's dotted and t's crossed, which I did as much as possible because the aging relative was willing to be forward looking and do the durable power of attorneys and other paperwork before needed. For more fun, consider that power of attorney does not grant you access to someone's SS account. The account where you can change addresses, SS payment information etc. No, you have to be appointed a representative payee, requiring a face to face meeting, etc.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

Thanks HomeStretch and MKC for your comments. I can see that Vanguard's Agent Authorization for Incapacitation is an unworkable solution for me. In order to have "backup" DPOA agents, my attorney-drafted DPOA designates them as successor agents so they won't have authority unless and until the primary agent resigns or is incapacitated. My attorney instructed me that replacing the primary agent is normally fairly routine; however it appears that Vanguard will throw mud in the gears.

Another approach could be used. What do you think of it?
I could designate my successor agents at Vanguard as agents with limited authorization. Here's Vanguard's description of that authority:
These are some of the tasks an agent with limited authorization can perform:

Buy, sell, and exchange your Vanguard mutual funds and trade stocks, bonds, and other securities.
Engage in margin or options trading if established on the accounts.
Transfer or invest assets between Vanguard accounts owned solely by you, including your revocable trust if you're the sole trustee.
Request that distributions from your accounts be payable to you and sent to your address or bank account of record.
Obtain information about your mutual fund and brokerage accounts, including historical account information.
They could withdraw funds into my checking account with this authority, and then exercise their POA to cash funds out of my checking account - once the bank has accepted my attorney-drafted DPOA. I had no problem getting my mother's DPOA immediately accepted at the bank. This would avoid giving my successor agents full authorization immediately, and It might be easier to deal with the bank to establish POA quickly, thus avoiding the hassle and delay with Vanguard. In the meantime, if they desire, my successor agents could try to establish full authority at Vanguard. Is this workable?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by FBN2014 »

Haven't states passed laws that compel financial firms to accept your attorney written POA?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

Thanks TN_Boy for your comments.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by HomeStretch »

FBN2014 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:33 am Haven't states passed laws that compel financial firms to accept your attorney written POA?
Yes, that’s the case in my parents’ state. It has helped. But it hasn’t stopped financial institutions from requiring their own POA/agent forms or putting limitations on the actions of an attorney-in-fact that are allowed under a DPOA that used the state’s statutory form of POA. At least that’s my recent experience with BoA, Vanguard and Fidelity.

Plus Medicare, SSA, IRS and state taxing authorities have their own POA/authorized agent process that may be time-consuming to put in place.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ResearchMed »

FBN2014 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:33 am Haven't states passed laws that compel financial firms to accept your attorney written POA?

Interestingly, Pennsylvania, home of Vanguard, did... several years ago.
For quite a few years, Vanguard's response was the equivalent of "Too bad".
:confused

I've heard they'll now accept them, but haven't heard of it actually being done.

Especially for 403b plans, which have *different* restrictions on FULL Agent Authorization, the DPOA is almost totally useless.

Thank goodness our 403b plan was moved out of Vanguard about 2 years ago... before we needed to use any DPOA functions.

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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by increment »

FBN2014 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:33 am Haven't states passed laws that compel financial firms to accept your attorney written POA?
Some states have, but what are agents to do if the firms refuse? Going to court might be the only recourse.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

ResearchMed wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:28 am
FBN2014 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:33 am Haven't states passed laws that compel financial firms to accept your attorney written POA?

Interestingly, Pennsylvania, home of Vanguard, did... several years ago.
For quite a few years, Vanguard's response was the equivalent of "Too bad".
:confused

I've heard they'll now accept them, but haven't heard of it actually being done.

Especially for 403b plans, which have *different* restrictions on FULL Agent Authorization, the DPOA is almost totally useless.

Thank goodness our 403b plan was moved out of Vanguard about 2 years ago... before we needed to use any DPOA functions.

RM
Maybe you already said upthread, but where do you think is better for an IRA re: DPOA acceptance?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:04 pm ...I started the process moving her accounts to Fidelity. The first step is to establish my POA. Fidelity's website only lists Durable POAs. My POA is a Standby POA with the requisite supplied physician's statements which allow me to act on my Mom's behalf.

I emailed my local Fidelity rep and got a response within a few hours. The email supplied a secure website for uploading the documents. The Fidelity legal team will review my POA and provide a decision within 48 hours.

(I'm not using the rep to manage my investments, but they are very helpful in situations like this. It pays to keep in touch.)
My Standby POA with the requisite physician's statements was accepted by the Fidelity legal team. :thumbsup After a few phone calls (very responsive to quickly return my call and answer questions), the process is:

1. Download forms from the rep's secure message.
1a. Complete a durable POA form. Get the signature notarized.
1b. Complete a new account application for each account (retirement (IRA) and non-retirement), sign as "LadyGeek POA for Mom".
2. Upload forms via secure message.
3. Fidelity takes care of the paperwork to establish the new accounts.
4. Fidelity contacts me in a few days to guide me through the transfer process. I can probably do this myself online. However... this is under POA, so I'll wait for their guidance.

Fidelity completed as much of those forms as they could. They're fillable PDF forms and you can save them with your changes. Print, sign (+ notarize), scan to PDF, upload via secure message. (It's a good thing I have a desktop scanner.)

I'm at step 3. Since this is a holiday weekend, I'm expecting to hear back from Fidelity sometime late next week.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ResearchMed »

Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:42 pm
ResearchMed wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:28 am
FBN2014 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:33 am Haven't states passed laws that compel financial firms to accept your attorney written POA?

Interestingly, Pennsylvania, home of Vanguard, did... several years ago.
For quite a few years, Vanguard's response was the equivalent of "Too bad".
:confused

I've heard they'll now accept them, but haven't heard of it actually being done.

Especially for 403b plans, which have *different* restrictions on FULL Agent Authorization, the DPOA is almost totally useless.

Thank goodness our 403b plan was moved out of Vanguard about 2 years ago... before we needed to use any DPOA functions.

RM
Maybe you already said upthread, but where do you think is better for an IRA re: DPOA acceptance?

Sorry for the delay; I missed somehow missed this post.

We had an excellent experience with Schwab when we relocated very elderly MIL cross country to be closer to us.
She decided at that time that she no longer wanted to deal with any of her finances, even though she was still absolutely cognizant, etc. She told DH to "take care of everything". (That included setting up things like her cable, etc.; at least I was able to help out with that stuff.)

She had a DPOA and a trust already set up.
We brought in her documents to a Schwab office that is very near us (convenient on occasions!), and they needed to look over the docs. Then they notified DH that everything was in order, and her accounts were set up. DH took care of everything after that, online. Easy!

... except for one thing: When he was helping her pack for the trip, he found some old, tattered stock certificates that were valid (she was still receiving dividends).
So we brought those certificates in and asked them to do whatever was needed to have them transferred to appear electronically in her account. They started to tell me what to do, but I pleaded ignorance (which was totally accurate!) and asked them, again, to take care of it.
That was the end of that. They "took care of it". :happy

And they have 24/7 phone and chat support.
Many things can get done by chat, and then I save the transcript so there is a record. (But I've never needed to say anything like, "... but they told us that...!" Nice!

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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

One thing I worry about is whether the financial company in fact has what they said they accepted on record. My misgiving was just validated at TIAA. A few years ago, I filed an attorney-prepared beneficiary designation with them which they (unlike Vanguard) said was OK. A couple days ago, I called and spoke to a rep and asked if he could verify that they did indeed have this beneficiary document on file. After putting me on hold and checking with the back office, he told me "no", they don't have that on file. Said he'd send me their cookie cutter beneficiary form to complete and refile, and said to include my customized bene document with that. I asked if I would ever get a confirmation that they had accepted it and that it was on file. He said "sure." But I'm not sure.

What about Fidelity and Schwab. Do they give you anything in writing to confirm that they've accepted your attorney-prepared DPOA? Or is it a "sure?"
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ResearchMed »

Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:25 pm One thing I worry about is whether the financial company in fact has what they said they accepted on record. My misgiving was just validated at TIAA. A few years ago, I filed an attorney-prepared beneficiary designation with them which they (unlike Vanguard) said was OK. A couple days ago, I called and spoke to a rep and asked if he could verify that they did indeed have this beneficiary document on file. After putting me on hold and checking with the back office, he told me "no", they don't have that on file. Said he'd send me their cookie cutter beneficiary form to complete and refile, and said to include my customized bene document with that. I asked if I would ever get a confirmation that they had accepted it and that it was on file. He said "sure." But I'm not sure.

What about Fidelity and Schwab. Do they give you anything in writing to confirm that they've accepted your attorney-prepared DPOA? Or is it a "sure?"

Well, a DPOA is different from something like a beneficiary document; that latter doesn't need to be used until...

We never gave Schwab any other documents related to agency. So either Schwab DID have MIL's own form, or Schwab simply checked a box and put a name in so DH could be validated when calling, etc., but they didn't have any "proof" anymore. I have no way to know, and never thought about what's "behind the scenes"...

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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by HomeStretch »

Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:25 pm … What about Fidelity and Schwab. Do they give you anything in writing to confirm that they've accepted your attorney-prepared DPOA? …
Yes (Fidelity).

I recently transferred my parents’ accounts (Taxable, Traditional & Roth IRAs) to and set up CMAs at Fidelity using attorney-prepared DPOAs. After acceptance of the submitted DPOAs, we received secured messages in their online account and in my online account that the POA set up was completed. In their online accounts, they can view who has DPOA access. In my online account, their accounts show up on the side bar under the heading “authorized accounts.” There is also a notation at the end of their monthly statement listing my name (I don’t recall the wording).

My only issues with the DPOA process/access:
(1) Fidelity reps/local office gave inaccurate information about the agent’s (me) ability to do transactions online in a CMA such as Bill Pay. We ended up changing the CMA account registration to “joint owners”.
(2) in the online account, the agent (me) cannot make online transfers between accounts, view account statements, link external bank accounts, etc. There is also a limit for the first 90(?) days as to how much Fidelity will allow me as agent to transfer out of the accounts.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ee_guy »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:04 pm ...I started the process moving her accounts to Fidelity. The first step is to establish my POA. Fidelity's website only lists Durable POAs. My POA is a Standby POA with the requisite supplied physician's statements which allow me to act on my Mom's behalf.

I emailed my local Fidelity rep and got a response within a few hours. The email supplied a secure website for uploading the documents. The Fidelity legal team will review my POA and provide a decision within 48 hours.

(I'm not using the rep to manage my investments, but they are very helpful in situations like this. It pays to keep in touch.)
Just curious about how you email Fidelity. There are two ways: email via your email account or logging into Fidelity and send a secure email. Both seems to work. Of course if there is private data, secure email is the way.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ee_guy »

RetiredAL wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:58 pm However, Fidelity will not allow the Agent to on-line withdraw money even to a pre-defined xfer point, you must call and talk to a CSR. Schwab does allow on-line withdrawals.
Seeing this note, I logged into my Fidelity account with access to DW account. I am able to withdraw money to our checking account. The checking account is joint but I don't think Fidelity has visibility to the owners.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

ee_guy wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:41 am
LadyGeek wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:04 pm ...I started the process moving her accounts to Fidelity. The first step is to establish my POA. Fidelity's website only lists Durable POAs. My POA is a Standby POA with the requisite supplied physician's statements which allow me to act on my Mom's behalf.

I emailed my local Fidelity rep and got a response within a few hours. The email supplied a secure website for uploading the documents. The Fidelity legal team will review my POA and provide a decision within 48 hours.

(I'm not using the rep to manage my investments, but they are very helpful in situations like this. It pays to keep in touch.)
Just curious about how you email Fidelity. There are two ways: email via your email account or logging into Fidelity and send a secure email. Both seems to work. Of course if there is private data, secure email is the way.
I didn't see how to send a secure message directly to my rep (it's a generic form), but I had his email from a previous discussion. I emailed him directly using my email account and explained what to do. He responded by secure message containing the forms. I then replied to the email with the updated forms.

The point is to remember that email is not secure. Send a regular email explaining what you want to do in general terms and let them respond via secure message. I used the same email address on file with Fidelity so they can track it to my account.

If you don't have the rep's email, call them. Or, use the generic secure message form and hopefully it will get to someone who can help.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by RetiredAL »

ee_guy wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:56 am
RetiredAL wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:58 pm However, Fidelity will not allow the Agent to on-line withdraw money even to a pre-defined xfer point, you must call and talk to a CSR. Schwab does allow on-line withdrawals.
Seeing this note, I logged into my Fidelity account with access to DW account. I am able to withdraw money to our checking account. The checking account is joint but I don't think Fidelity has visibility to the owners.
As DW's Agent using my logon, I can view/buy/sell within her Roth, but when starting a transfer, her Roth account is not shown as a source account. When logging on as DW, she can view/buy/sell within my IRAs and Roth, but no transfer.

From either logon, we can transfer from our Taxable Trust Account (Joint Trustees) to our joint checking account.

80% of our monies are in my IRAs and Roths. So my instructions to my DW and local son are to either use my logon OR you will have to call them. Local son is also POA agent both DW and I. Our POAs Agent(s) are explicitly granted the power to use our on-line presences.

At Schwab where I take care of my Dad's IRA, my logon as His Agent allows me to transfer money to checking (Joint him/me) which is how I handle his RMD. The TO's are his checking or any Schwab my logon is linked to, but cannot be to my checking, only his. DW's Schwab Roth (I'm POA) can also be selected as source, as can my Dad's Trust Accounts (I'm his Trustee).
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by ee_guy »

RetiredAL wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:08 am
ee_guy wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:56 am
RetiredAL wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:58 pm However, Fidelity will not allow the Agent to on-line withdraw money even to a pre-defined xfer point, you must call and talk to a CSR. Schwab does allow on-line withdrawals.
Seeing this note, I logged into my Fidelity account with access to DW account. I am able to withdraw money to our checking account. The checking account is joint but I don't think Fidelity has visibility to the owners.
As DW's Agent using my logon, I can view/buy/sell within her Roth, but when starting a transfer, her Roth account is not shown as a source account. When logging on as DW, she can view/buy/sell within my IRAs and Roth, but no transfer.

From either logon, we can transfer from our Taxable Trust Account (Joint Trustees) to our joint checking account.

80% of our monies are in my IRAs and Roths. So my instructions to my DW and local son are to either use my logon OR you will have to call them. Local son is also POA agent both DW and I. Our POAs Agent(s) are explicitly granted the power to use our on-line presences.

At Schwab where I take care of my Dad's IRA, my logon as His Agent allows me to transfer money to checking (Joint him/me) which is how I handle his RMD. The TO's are his checking or any Schwab my logon is linked to, but cannot be to my checking, only his. DW's Schwab Roth (I'm POA) can also be selected as source, as can my Dad's Trust Accounts (I'm his Trustee).
Further details: I can transfer money from DW account using my login to our checking account but cannot do it on her IRA or Roth IRA.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by RetiredAL »

ee_guy wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:42 pm
RetiredAL wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:08 am
ee_guy wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:56 am
RetiredAL wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:58 pm However, Fidelity will not allow the Agent to on-line withdraw money even to a pre-defined xfer point, you must call and talk to a CSR. Schwab does allow on-line withdrawals.
Seeing this note, I logged into my Fidelity account with access to DW account. I am able to withdraw money to our checking account. The checking account is joint but I don't think Fidelity has visibility to the owners.
As DW's Agent using my logon, I can view/buy/sell within her Roth, but when starting a transfer, her Roth account is not shown as a source account. When logging on as DW, she can view/buy/sell within my IRAs and Roth, but no transfer.

From either logon, we can transfer from our Taxable Trust Account (Joint Trustees) to our joint checking account.

80% of our monies are in my IRAs and Roths. So my instructions to my DW and local son are to either use my logon OR you will have to call them. Local son is also POA agent both DW and I. Our POAs Agent(s) are explicitly granted the power to use our on-line presences.

At Schwab where I take care of my Dad's IRA, my logon as His Agent allows me to transfer money to checking (Joint him/me) which is how I handle his RMD. The TO's are his checking or any Schwab my logon is linked to, but cannot be to my checking, only his. DW's Schwab Roth (I'm POA) can also be selected as source, as can my Dad's Trust Accounts (I'm his Trustee).
Further details: I can transfer money from DW account using my login to our checking account but cannot do it on her IRA or Roth IRA.
That is my bone of contention with Fido POA process. DW is non-technical and non-financial, mostly be choice, which will likely be problematic at some point. The easier the better for her when she is forced to do those things, as 80% of our money is not available to her without jumping through some hoops.

Interesting that they allow you to transfer from your DW's regular account. My DW does not have a "her" account other than her IRA, so I've never explored that path.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

HomeStretch wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:09 am
Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:25 pm … What about Fidelity and Schwab. Do they give you anything in writing to confirm that they've accepted your attorney-prepared DPOA? …
Yes (Fidelity).

I recently transferred my parents’ accounts (Taxable, Traditional & Roth IRAs) to and set up CMAs at Fidelity using attorney-prepared DPOAs. After acceptance of the submitted DPOAs, we received secured messages in their online account and in my online account that the POA set up was completed. In their online accounts, they can view who has DPOA access. In my online account, their accounts show up on the side bar under the heading “authorized accounts.” There is also a notation at the end of their monthly statement listing my name (I don’t recall the wording).

My only issues with the DPOA process/access:
(1) Fidelity reps/local office gave inaccurate information about the agent’s (me) ability to do transactions online in a CMA such as Bill Pay. We ended up changing the CMA account registration to “joint owners”.
(2) in the online account, the agent (me) cannot make online transfers between accounts, view account statements, link external bank accounts, etc. There is also a limit for the first 90(?) days as to how much Fidelity will allow me as agent to transfer out of the accounts.
Have you checked the access level? See: How to Authorize Others to Access Your Accounts

Your issues sound like your access is restricted to Inquiry Access. I recently received Inquiry Access for a family member's account and have the same visibility / control as you describe. It's appropriate for what's intended.

In your case, see if you've been given the wrong access level. You say it's DPOA, but perhaps someone at Fidelity entered the wrong info. It won't hurt to double-check with a different Fidelity contact (not the local rep).
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by HomeStretch »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:59 am
HomeStretch wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:09 am
Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:25 pm … What about Fidelity and Schwab. Do they give you anything in writing to confirm that they've accepted your attorney-prepared DPOA? …
Yes (Fidelity).

I recently transferred my parents’ accounts (Taxable, Traditional & Roth IRAs) to and set up CMAs at Fidelity using attorney-prepared DPOAs. After acceptance of the submitted DPOAs, we received secured messages in their online account and in my online account that the POA set up was completed. In their online accounts, they can view who has DPOA access. In my online account, their accounts show up on the side bar under the heading “authorized accounts.” There is also a notation at the end of their monthly statement listing my name (I don’t recall the wording).

My only issues with the DPOA process/access:
(1) Fidelity reps/local office gave inaccurate information about the agent’s (me) ability to do transactions online in a CMA such as Bill Pay. We ended up changing the CMA account registration to “joint owners”.
(2) in the online account, the agent (me) cannot make online transfers between accounts, view account statements, link external bank accounts, etc. There is also a limit for the first 90(?) days as to how much Fidelity will allow me as agent to transfer out of the accounts.
Have you checked the access level? See: How to Authorize Others to Access Your Accounts

Your issues sound like your access is restricted to Inquiry Access. I recently received Inquiry Access for a family member's account and have the same visibility / control as you describe. It's appropriate for what's intended. In your case, see if you've been given the wrong access level.
Unfortunately, it was not an inquiry-access issue. I ran into these issues after my parents’ attorney-drafted DPOAs were accepted by Fidelity. Others have posted in the Fidelity one-stop-shop thread about the limitations too (which are not just limited to Fidelity). It’s simply that trying to manage someone’s finances completely under a DPOA is more cumbersome or restrictive than managing one’s own. I understand that’s by design but when one is also helping parents with living in their own home, healthcare matters, etc., the limitations/online capability limits just add to the time burden.

The biggest issue was the Fidelity reps not having a good understanding of how the CMAs function for the attorney-in-fact (AIF). The information repeatedly given to me was erroneous. I as AIF could not even access Bill Pay which was the primary reason for the CMAs. One rep finally said that the CMA is not a Fidelity product so to just keep “trying it out” to see if it worked. I finally gave up and the CMAs were changed to add me as a joint owner. Granted my issues were more time-sensitive as I was separating my parents’ finances for Medicaid purposes. So the 4-6 weeks I lost while trying to make the CMAs works as AIF was a bit stressful. It’s all good now. But I think it’s important for anyone managing finances under a POA or agent access to understand the delays and limitations of getting POAs active and functioning especially if the grantor is truly incapacitated and can no longer help with eliminating roadblocks.
Last edited by HomeStretch on Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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