Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

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student
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by student »

itiswhatitis wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:30 pm I am so sorry you and your(adult) children are going through this. I am going to speak directly and with the cold hard truth of experience here. I will also delete this post in 24 hours.
I did not quote you entire post because you said you will delete the post in 24 hours. Note that OP has quoted your entire post, so that hers stays even if your delete yours. You may want to pm OP to edit her reply.
delamer
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by delamer »

michaeljc70 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:03 am You seem caught up on the 529 and need to look at the big picture. The big picture is if you do nothing maybe your kids will get their education paid for and you might end up with little to nothing. Money is fungible, so consider that (if you lose $700k so the kids can get $500k is that a good deal?) Since everything is in his name, the only way to protect yourself is to file for divorce. The lawyer can petition to limit large withdrawals from any accounts you may be entitled to a piece of.

In my state a spouse that is a beneficiary cannot be removed from a 401k without the spouse's permission.
To the OP —

I have 2 adult children so I appreciate your concern about the potential disruption to their lives & educations that a divorce might cause.

But the worse outcome here isn’t that they lose their medical school funding. They obviously are intelligent and hardworking, so they’ll figure it out. Medical schools have a huge incentive to keep their students enrolled.

The worst outcome, rather, is that you end up financially dependent on them because in your zeal to protect them, you end up compromising your own financial security.

Just like the flight attendants say “Put on your own mask before assisting others with theirs.”

Good luck.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

student wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:02 am
itiswhatitis wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:30 pm I am so sorry you and your(adult) children are going through this. I am going to speak directly and with the cold hard truth of experience here. I will also delete this post in 24 hours.
I did not quote you entire post because you said you will delete the post in 24 hours. Note that OP has quoted your entire post, so that hers stays even if your delete yours. You may want to pm OP to edit her reply.
You are right, I edited and deleted the quote
THY4373
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by THY4373 »

OP my ex and I went through amicable divorce some years back. Thankfully we did the collaborative divorce process and both acted like (mostly) sane adults. Even so it absolutely was the roughest time of my life easily and it probably took me about three years to work through everything emotionally. I cannot even begin to imagine what you are going through so you have my deepest sympathy. That said I also want to say it is one of the best things to happen to me as well. My solo life now is so much better and my former spouse is also flourishing. Our son just got accepted to all 12 colleges he applied to. Life is good so while it will doubtless get harder for a while hang in there the end point is worth it.

I'll echo the advice of others I see no reason to wait on the divorce. The longer you put it off the more disadvantage you would appear to be putting yourself in. You kids are obviously smart and hardworking and if their dad cuts them off then they'll sort something out. As the old saying goes you can get loans for college but not retirement so I think you need to be looking after yourself at this point. I would interview more lawyers and find one that works better for you. I also strongly suggest you try to understand the law as best you can for yourself. Another bit of advice is review *everything* you get from the lawyers, financial neutral if you have one, etc. I found a couple of minor-ish mistakes in our property division. My sister found the same with her divorce.

Finally as somebody else posted up thread take care of yourself. You will be stressed like you never have before if you were like me. I found exercise really helped me in fact it was better than therapy and cheaper. Find what works for you. Also, I am in no way discounting any of your concerns but having gone through this myself it is really easy for your mind to start coming up with all kinds of doomsday scenarios. Things played out far better than my doomsday scenarios imagined. So while you should absolutely prepare for the worst don't be surprised if things turn out better than you expect.
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

I am trying very hard to get a really good lawyer. It is not easy as I live in a small remote area. The local one is pressuring me to sign a retainer and is getting inpatient. I also spoke to a very good one, she is about an hour away but could come to my courthouse. It was 3 month ago. Her advise was to wait, see if I could live my life with him. I contacted her again couple of days ago and now her retainer quote went up from $25K to $50K. It seems unreasonable. Its a lot of money.
ChrisC
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by ChrisC »

I listened to a lot of my wife's cases when she had a very active legal practice in family law. Here's what I've gleaned in situations like the OP's:

1. There is a significant advantage in winning the race to the courthouse to file for dissolution of the marriage; your competent divorce lawyer can tell you the benefits of initiating the litigation first.

2. Choose your counsel very wisely, tap all available resources to fund the initial commitment to engage a lawyer (and this could include joint accounts with the husband or loans from family or friends; interview a number of good lawyers in your community (if it's a very small local community, interviews with potential lawyers in that community could prevent those lawyers from representing your husband under legal ethics rules, so keep interviewing until you get the lawyer you want and a filing is dropped at the courthouse).

3. Adult children are probably not going to be a concern in the legal proceedings, especially since they've graduated from college and should be considered financially independent. They are adults, not children where custody issues can dominate these proceedings. Moreover, I wouldn't be too concerned about the 529s and funding their medical school attendance. If they have to take out loans to continue their education and career paths, that should be all on them, particularly given the fact that the source of funding the 529s was marital property. My daughter-in-law and daughter had over $500K in medical and law school debt, they managed to pay off this debt within 5 years of gainful employment.

4. If OP's husband leaves the country and takes up residence there, this will complicate the proceedings significantly. See No.1 above as a way to limit this impact.

5. Assume the worse (protracted and nasty litigation, with nasty emotional baggage brought to bear on each other, paying enormous sums for attorney's fees, litigation expenses, expert witnesses, etc) and hope for the best (negotiated settlement with the aid of a mediator, where the parties are treating each other respectfully and with care for each other).

6. As someone else mentioned upthread, if you need mental or behavorial counselling don't use your lawyer for this -- seek other professional help for that.
THY4373
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by THY4373 »

lsk1 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:05 am I am trying very hard to get a really good lawyer. It is not easy as I live in a small remote area. The local one is pressuring me to sign a retainer and is getting inpatient. I also spoke to a very good one, she is about an hour away but could come to my courthouse. It was 3 month ago. Her advise was to wait, see if I could live my life with him. I contacted her again couple of days ago and now her retainer quote went up from $25K to $50K. It seems unreasonable. Its a lot of money.
That does seem high. I had a top lawyer (even though I didn't need her in the end but it was insurance) and in my medium cost of living area it was a lot less expensive than that (eight years ago). My ex and I did a collaborative divorce process which has a team and overall we spent a total of about $40k for both of us total. That cost includes, counseling for us, our son, a financial neutral and our lawyers. The lawyers mine and my ex's were about $10k each of that. The lawyers were the most expensive per hour by far but the financial neutral did most of the heavy lifting but she was a lot cheaper hourly. Though it was a collaborative divorce we had a minor child and significant assets in the mix so it was a complicated process.

Honestly we probably could have had done it much cheaper but given the assets involved and our child my ex and I wanted everything done right and air tight.
Last edited by THY4373 on Sun May 15, 2022 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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8foot7
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by 8foot7 »

One thing I would encourage you to do is find a therapist. Do not use your lawyer as a therapist. It’s tremendously expensive and they’re terrible at it. Every minute you spend with your lawyer should be productive and focused. Have a list of questions. Know what you want. Don’t argue with the lawyer about how fair or not fair something is; but also don’t be afraid to set your boundaries and know where and when there are bright lines for you. But also listen to reason—what you want may cost you as much in getting it as it’s worth.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by ResearchMed »

itiswhatitis wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:30 pm
[itiswhatitis has deleted the original of this, and has asked that I delete this copy. ~RM]


OP,
There is a lot of good information and ideas in the above post.

However, before I comment on some specifics, I want to note something that seems critical, where you wrote:
lsk1 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:32 pm
Kids are ours. My husband is a scary and unpredictable person. When cornered he could do awful things. He doesnt need to empty 529, he could just change beneficiaries.
[emphasis added]

If this is really true, that he could "do awful things", then emptying those 529 accounts is not near the top of the list. As others have pointed out, your children will end up fine, even if they need to take loans. And maybe they won't need to do so; you won't know for a while yet.

You need to PROTECT YOURSELF!
Reading between the lines, whether you intended this meaning or not, there may be issues about your personal safety as well as your financial situation.
This may mean that you do not engage with him about this *until* you have spoken with an attorney and decided if there may need to be any protective orders (concerning money or personal safety).

You seem to have found a more assertive (competent!??) attorney a bit of a distance.
Much can be done by Zoom these days.
And perhaps she would consider a smaller retainer, at least for the very start, until you can safely access some of your money.
NOTE: What I mean by the above, is if you husband is vindictive about money and you fear he could "do awful things", then if he sees that you have accessed/moved a chunk of money, that could be dangerous for you.
Do you have a friend you can totally trust not to betray confidences about this? Could that person also help you with a short term loan for part of the retainer.
I'm assuming that the total amount of your joint assets (they ARE *joint*; it's NOT all just his money, no matter what he thinks or claims!) is enough to cover things once you don't have to worry about getting access to some of that money, correct?

This attorney will be very familiar with your potential issues, especially if she is "good".
Let her guide you!
But try to contact her initially so that your husband isn't aware, until you are/feel safe for the time being.
And try to contact her in private, in a way that your husband won't know, at least until your personal and financial safety are addressed.

Time IS of the essence here: You need to get something filed *first*. You need to have your potential share of money protected *before* he can move it out of the country. (I don't know the laws in your state, but it may well be true that he is unable to remove the 401k money without your agreement, unless there is a court order, and any court order is likely to include your interests in this situation.)

It can be very upsetting and even frightening. Be prepared to call 911 if you feel threatened, and don't hesitate.
The way you described your husband is alarming.

I'm also sending you a PM.

Best of luck!

RM
Last edited by ResearchMed on Sun May 15, 2022 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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evelynmanley
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by evelynmanley »

I sent this to you in a PM, but in case this might help other readers in the same situation:

Serving the divorce papers: My lawyer also told me NOT to serve the papers to my husband at home because he had a temper. She told me to do it in a crowded restaurant, which I did. He was shocked and upset, but he stayed calm because we were in a public place. Fortunately, my husband and I were already separated at that point and he had an apartment in a different nearby city. Once I filed for divorce, I had all the locks changed on our house, which I was living in, and which I continued to live in after the divorce. This was in 1996. Maybe these days you can have your husband served papers by your lawyer's representative. I don't know the rules about this. Your safety is of paramount importance.

Where to live after serving divorce papers: You mention that your husband is unpredictable, etc. If you are living with your husband, now, I would recommend that have a place to live away from the house once you serve the papers. I can't imagine serving my husband with divorce papers and then having to share the house with him. Again, your safety is of paramount importance.

Also my lawyer said that the first person to file has all the advantages, as I mentioned in my first post to you.

Please take care!
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

Its overwhelming to receive so many replies! I never expected this level of care from complete strangers.I I am so thankful to you all!
I wanted to also ask if $50K retainer is unreasonable? Especially because she quoted $25K before?
I have a very hard time finding a good attorney because of my location...
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8foot7
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by 8foot7 »

No, a $50,000 retainer is not reasonable. It may be a sign she doesn’t want your case.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by Lee_WSP »

lsk1 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:03 pm Its overwhelming to receive so many replies! I never expected this level of care from complete strangers.I I am so thankful to you all!
I wanted to also ask if $50K retainer is unreasonable? Especially because she quoted $25K before?
I have a very hard time finding a good attorney because of my location...
Yes and no.

Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable for an attorney to ask such a high retainer if she believes the case is going to drag on for a year or longer and incur dozens/hundred billable hours.

Look at it from our perspective. We are very very unlikely to collect anything more than the initial advanced deposit. As such, we need to collect what we reasonably believe the matter to cost plus a little buffer.

The no is whether you should be spending 50k effectuating the divorce.

As a percentage of net worth (half of 900k) it seems an extreme cost. However, can you get this done on your own? No. So, then we look towards the alternatives.

Will a cheaper attorney get it done at a lower price and same result? Maybe. I don’t know. It’s entirely possible, but then again, the cheaper lawyer is cheaper for a reason.

In your particular situation, you need to weigh the costs of obtaining a “big city lawyer” against the difference you believe you’ll obtain by hiring the “big city lawyer”.

So the equation is as follows:

Difference in cost for lawyer 1 < Difference in result by hiring lawyer 1 over lawyer 2
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by Lee_WSP »

8foot7 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:10 pm No, a $50,000 retainer is not reasonable. It may be a sign she doesn’t want your case.
There is a pretty strong likelihood that this is the case. It is rather odd for an advanced deposit to skyrocket to 2x from a few months ago.
Jags4186
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by Jags4186 »

8foot7 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:10 pm No, a $50,000 retainer is not reasonable. It may be a sign she doesn’t want your case.
That, or the attorney already surmised that getting money from the OP will be like getting water from stone.

You’d be shocked how many people getting divorced when they are in the OPs situation (i.e. the spouse without the money), stop paying. The lawyers just can’t stop lawyering because they haven’t been paid.
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whodidntante
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by whodidntante »

I don't think a 401k plan is allowed to execute a distribution without spousal consent. If they do, you would have a claim against the plan and/or administrator. But ask your lawyer, not a poker player. :P
ChrisC
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by ChrisC »

Jags4186 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:19 pm
8foot7 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:10 pm No, a $50,000 retainer is not reasonable. It may be a sign she doesn’t want your case.
That, or the attorney already surmised that getting money from the OP will be like getting water from stone.

You’d be shocked how many people getting divorced when they are in the OPs situation (i.e. the spouse without the money), stop paying. The lawyers just can’t stop lawyering because they haven’t been paid.
Or the lawyer could have taken a second hard look at the degree of difficulty and professional angst representation could entail with OP as the client. It might have been her way of "value billing," recognizing that after the $50K advance fee was drawn down in a few months that the representation would essentially shift to a contingency fee arrangement.

I don't see how anyone could say this is plainly an unreasonable fee arrangement. The lawyer still has to earn his compensation and his fee. Our recent experiences with family members who sought our guidance in procuring divorce lawyers for relatively ordinary and unprotracted divorce litigation, pre- and post Covid, shows that a $25K-35K tag is not out of the ordinary for cases with no where near the assets that OP has mentioned here and those cases involved limited discovery, one or two depositions, and a one or two extended hearings. The OP says there's a brokerage account in the low 7 figures, a 401K and 529s that could fund 2 medical school educations. She hasn't mentioned the value of the marital residence or any other real estate or assets; and there's no telling what assets could be hidden by her husband or not known to the OP.
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8foot7
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by 8foot7 »

It’s unreasonable because it was quoted at 25k and then doubled a few weeks later. Where did the 25k option go? Why did it double? Unless there are details that have been withheld from the attorney or from us, the 50k quote has all the hallmarks of a “I’d be stupid not to take this case at this price but I otherwise don’t really want it” sort of quote.

Many folks would also have a difficult time coming up with 50k in cash to pay just so a lawyer could keep it in a trust account. Telling this individual with practically no money “of her own” (yes, all the money is half hers, but accessing it may be difficult) she needs to come up with 50k to get started is not reasonable.

Locally our friend had to put down $12,500. Low seven figures at stake between the two of them, mostly in a house and 401k. Not amicable but not particularly adversarial.
michaeljc70
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by michaeljc70 »

If this is resolved relatively easy, like through negotiation or arbitration, $50k may be too much to put upfront. Since there are no minor children, that helps simplify things. IMNAL, but given the length of the marriage, it seems this is likely going to be a close to 50/50 split. If one party makes it difficult there can be expensive fighting regarding things like who keeps the house, who keeps the xxx and the yyy.

Since the OP has no income, that can work to her advantage. A close friend got divorced recently. He made a lot of money and the spouse made almost nothing. The friend had to pay for both lawyers. Therefore, the friend had a big incentive to not draw this out as it was on his dime.
delamer
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by delamer »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:13 pm
lsk1 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:03 pm Its overwhelming to receive so many replies! I never expected this level of care from complete strangers.I I am so thankful to you all!
I wanted to also ask if $50K retainer is unreasonable? Especially because she quoted $25K before?
I have a very hard time finding a good attorney because of my location...
Yes and no.

Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable for an attorney to ask such a high retainer if she believes the case is going to drag on for a year or longer and incur dozens/hundred billable hours.

Look at it from our perspective. We are very very unlikely to collect anything more than the initial advanced deposit. As such, we need to collect what we reasonably believe the matter to cost plus a little buffer.

The no is whether you should be spending 50k effectuating the divorce.

As a percentage of net worth (half of 900k) it seems an extreme cost. However, can you get this done on your own? No. So, then we look towards the alternatives.

Will a cheaper attorney get it done at a lower price and same result? Maybe. I don’t know. It’s entirely possible, but then again, the cheaper lawyer is cheaper for a reason.

In your particular situation, you need to weigh the costs of obtaining a “big city lawyer” against the difference you believe you’ll obtain by hiring the “big city lawyer”.

So the equation is as follows:

Difference in cost for lawyer 1 < Difference in result by hiring lawyer 1 over lawyer 2
Let’s say the attorney bills at $500/hour. She gets a $50,000 retainer and spends 100 hours on the OP’s case over an initial 6 month period. But the case is not yet settled and the attorney expects to spend another 100 hours over the next 6 months to get the divorce finalized.

What happens then?

(Sorry if my example isn’t realistic. Just trying to understand what the attorney’s and client’s obligations are once the retainer has been spent.)
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
THY4373
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by THY4373 »

whodidntante wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:28 pm I don't think a 401k plan is allowed to execute a distribution without spousal consent. If they do, you would have a claim against the plan and/or administrator. But ask your lawyer, not a poker player. :P
I was doing mega-backdoor Roth rollovers (in service distributions) from my non-Roth after-tax 401k balance to a Schwab Roth IRA when I was married (with the knowledge of my spouse) and there was no requirement for her to approve those.
delamer
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by delamer »

THY4373 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:19 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:28 pm I don't think a 401k plan is allowed to execute a distribution without spousal consent. If they do, you would have a claim against the plan and/or administrator. But ask your lawyer, not a poker player. :P
I was doing mega-backdoor Roth rollovers (in service distributions) from my non-Roth after-tax 401k balance to a Schwab Roth IRA when I was married (with the knowledge of my spouse) and there was no requirement for her to approve those.
When my husband did a rollover of his 401(k) to an IRA, my notarized signature was required by the 401(k) administrator.

This was post-retirement however.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by Lee_WSP »

delamer wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:16 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:13 pm
lsk1 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:03 pm Its overwhelming to receive so many replies! I never expected this level of care from complete strangers.I I am so thankful to you all!
I wanted to also ask if $50K retainer is unreasonable? Especially because she quoted $25K before?
I have a very hard time finding a good attorney because of my location...
Yes and no.

Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable for an attorney to ask such a high retainer if she believes the case is going to drag on for a year or longer and incur dozens/hundred billable hours.

Look at it from our perspective. We are very very unlikely to collect anything more than the initial advanced deposit. As such, we need to collect what we reasonably believe the matter to cost plus a little buffer.

The no is whether you should be spending 50k effectuating the divorce.

As a percentage of net worth (half of 900k) it seems an extreme cost. However, can you get this done on your own? No. So, then we look towards the alternatives.

Will a cheaper attorney get it done at a lower price and same result? Maybe. I don’t know. It’s entirely possible, but then again, the cheaper lawyer is cheaper for a reason.

In your particular situation, you need to weigh the costs of obtaining a “big city lawyer” against the difference you believe you’ll obtain by hiring the “big city lawyer”.

So the equation is as follows:

Difference in cost for lawyer 1 < Difference in result by hiring lawyer 1 over lawyer 2
Let’s say the attorney bills at $500/hour. She gets a $50,000 retainer and spends 100 hours on the OP’s case over an initial 6 month period. But the case is not yet settled and the attorney expects to spend another 100 hours over the next 6 months to get the divorce finalized.

What happens then?

(Sorry if my example isn’t realistic. Just trying to understand what the attorney’s and client’s obligations are once the retainer has been spent.)
Unless the trial date is on the horizon (a smart attorney would re-up the retainer before scheduling the trial), the attorney simply files a motion to withdraw or notice of withdrawal citing lack of payment. At least in my state (it cannot severely impair the client’s ability to prosecute the case (hence the trial comment (you can get a new attorney if you haven’t set a trial date))). In other states, the attorney may be obligated to stay on the case depending on how far it is.
humbledinvestor
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by humbledinvestor »

OP, IF you can somehow work towards a divorce via mediation it will be good for you both. Divorce attorneys can fight for you but also drain you as they sense blood in the water. Your attorney and the OC will likely know each other well as they would have met in court before. Despite that, if this gets out of hand, you will spend way more than 50k. Draining assets at this age can be devastating.

Mediation is easier said than done. If your husband is unreasonable and wants to fight, then it will be impossible. There is also collaborative divorce, each has an attorney for a fixed fee and these attorneys are looking to split assets fairly without a court fight.

In some cases, even a trial date may not bring the OC to settle. This was true for me. The earnings were disparate between me and my Ex. Her attorney knew they could get what they want.

The court system is brutal and designed to keep lawyers, judges, bailiffs employed. Judges, attorneys all know each other. If mediation is not possible, try to get the best lawyer you can who has offices near the courthouse and frequently has lunches and coffee in the area. He/she is more likely to rub elbows with the judge.
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LilyFleur
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by LilyFleur »

lsk1 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:29 pm He can change beneficiaries at any time.
Actually, in California, a spouse must agree to a change of beneficiary for a 401k. My ex-husband was not a beneficiary on my 401k, and the day the divorce went through I made my children the beneficiaries. Of course, they can do whatever they want and break the law and then your attorney has to get it back for you.

California has strict laws about community property. The more documentation you have, the better. Are there any paper statements around the house that you can copy and keep elsewhere, like at a trusted friend's house? If he begins moving money and hiding money, documentation that you have will be very important, even if it is not quite current.

During a California divorce, there is a process called "discovery," where each party has to document assets, submit the statements to their attorney and their attorney submits it to the other side. If you know that your husband has accounts at a particular institution, even if your husband does not submit current statements during discovery, your attorney can subpoena the institution. Of course, that drives up your costs. But divorcing a difficult, controlling person can be a very expensive process.

This would be a good time to get some credit cards in your own name only while you can apply based on your husband's income. When you file for divorce, cancel the shared credit cards as soon as possible, and start using your own so that it is easy to see what debt is yours. He could start running up the shared credit cards. Preventing any debt that is perceived as community property debt at that point is a very smart move. It has been a few years since my divorce, so please run this past your attorney, and read the book I mention below.

I highly recommend the book, Divorce & Money: Make the Best Financial Decisions During Divorce, from Nolo Press. It was invaluable and I had a consultation with one of the authors during my divorce, although I had a family law attorney to handle the bulk of it.

I wish you the best. I understand you are concerned about your children. California law does not cover child support past the age of 18, so any legal agreements about the support/tuition of children older than 18 is completely voluntary on the part of the divorcing couple and will need to be negotiated. My children ended up using CalGrants to get through college.

I think divorce attorneys eyeball the size of the assets and determine a percentage that they will take. Of course, a collaborative, amicable divorce is much less expensive than a hostile one. I had to go to court multiple times, and it was very expensive. I have had friends who paid the fee for a mediator for divorce, only to have completely wasted the money because the divorce was too difficult for mediation. I think I spent about $60,000; I had a friend who spent at least $150,000. Reasonable people don't want to fritter away their family resources on attorney fees. But unfortunately, not everyone is reasonable in a divorce. California law is quite clear. But some parties believe they are above the law.
viveks
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by viveks »

$50K retainer upfront is unreasonable. Propose to start with something like $10- $15k and pay more as things move along. If you don't have a well paying job, one of the things your lawyer can do is file a motion to make sure you have get some money for your attorney fee, Make sure you get the money and not the attorney.

There is lot of good advice on this thread, particularly liked ones from ChrisC: There is a significant advantage in winning the race to the courthouse to file for dissolution of the marriage; specifically in a situation like yours. I would suggest get hold of a big chunk of money like 401(k) or a joint investment account early in the proceedings, as a worst case surety in case other person disappears. Both me and SO do Mega Backdoor IRA completely done over the phone, provider never asked for any letter from spouse. Once you file for divorce, get a notification sent to 401(k)/brokerage provider ASAP.

Things will work out.. you just need to put one foot in front of other.
THY4373
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by THY4373 »

delamer wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:22 pm When my husband did a rollover of his 401(k) to an IRA, my notarized signature was required by the 401(k) administrator.

This was post-retirement however.
It could also be some amount threshold that requires authorization too. My in-service transfers were done twice a year so were around $10k-ish per transfer which was a relatively small amount vs the overall balance.

And now that I am recalling it more my account was frozen once my 401k provider was notified of the divorce so the back door wasn't possible then (my spouse and I did a collaborative divorce so I was able to transfer, out freeze, QDRO and unfreeze in about eight months so my backdoor plans were not thrown off too much).
Last edited by THY4373 on Sun May 15, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

I don't have 50K of my own in a separate checking account. I could legally take 50K from our joint checking but it doesn't mean that I will have the same opportunity when more money are needed.
The cheaper lawyer was telling me that the money for her fees would come from my husband, however as soon as I came to get a second consultation she asked for a retainer which I must provide and file immediately if I want to work with her.
Bad situation from all sides.
michaeljc70
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by michaeljc70 »

I would not work with an attorney whose retainer doubled for no good reason.
ChrisC
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by ChrisC »

8foot7 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:09 pm It’s unreasonable because it was quoted at 25k and then doubled a few weeks later. Where did the 25k option go? Why did it double? Unless there are details that have been withheld from the attorney or from us, the 50k quote has all the hallmarks of a “I’d be stupid not to take this case at this price but I otherwise don’t really want it” sort of quote.

Many folks would also have a difficult time coming up with 50k in cash to pay just so a lawyer could keep it in a trust account. Telling this individual with practically no money “of her own” (yes, all the money is half hers, but accessing it may be difficult) she needs to come up with 50k to get started is not reasonable.

Locally our friend had to put down $12,500. Low seven figures at stake between the two of them, mostly in a house and 401k. Not amicable but not particularly adversarial.
We will just have to disagree with our assessments of a high upaward adjustment of an advance fee/retainer from the lawyer's initial consultation with a client to a second consultation months (not a few weeks) later. We don't know what was said in the initial consultation and the second call one when the $25K hike occurred and we certainly don't know whether the lawyer re-assessed the complexity and difficulty of the case after the second call.

Sure, it's possible that the lawyer doesn't want to handle the case and artificially hiked the advance fee/retainer but the lawyer's fees in all cases has to be reasonable. California like other states has the same rules on this issue, especially in divorce case representations, where the level of bar complaints and dissatisfied clients is perhaps as high as in any other legal representation. https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/doc ... edline.pdf

Well, the OP does have the $50k sitting in a joint account so that might have been revealed during the second call. I think we don't know enough to say the advance fee amount is unreasonable under Bar Rule 1.5 above. And if a lawyer does not want to handle the case, you simply decline representation -- why turn down business for bogus reasons -- especially in a practice area, where if you're not a rock star divorce lawyer, profits are thin and you can wreck your entire practice with one bad uncompensated case draining all your time and energy?

You say in your friend's case that the client had to pay $12,500. What did they wind up eventually paying in fees and expenses? Just curious how long did you engage in private practice for paying clients?
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by ChrisC »

viveks wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:55 pm $50K retainer upfront is unreasonable. Propose to start with something like $10- $15k and pay more as things move along. If you don't have a well paying job, one of the things your lawyer can do is file a motion to make sure you have get some money for your attorney fee, Make sure you get the money and not the attorney.
Lawyers might negotiate an advance fee/retainer for wealthy clients (but then again it it's a wealthy client it's unlikely that client would ask for a reduced advance fee/retainer). The point of requiring a hefty advance fee/retainer for clients in which there might be difficulty in paying for services down the road is to make sure that as the case develops, fees or expenses are incurred, that the lawyer has a stable source of funds to drawn down to pay for these incurred fees and expenses.

More likely, the advance fee/retainer agreement will require that once a certain level of funds is exhausted (say bills and invoices exceed $40K) the client might be obligated to "replenish" funding the trust account entry for the client that was established with the initial advance fee. The level of replenishment might be subject to some level of negotiation with the lawyer, especially if the client is hard pressed to tap funding resources.

In the OP's case, she can certainly go back to the lawyer and say the advance fee is too high for her to bear, but realistically if she has access to $50K from a joint account, it might be better for her to take out as much as she can from available accounts to pre-pay for legal fees and expenses now especially if the lawyer is very good and can get her relief pendite lite. https://www.womansdivorce.com/pendente-lite-relief.html. These proceedings for temporary alimony or support are not cheap, by the way, if contested.
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by BarbBrooklyn »

Lsk, are you paying for these consults at the lawyer's hourly rate?

You cannot expect an attorney to work for free. Expect to "pay as you go" perhaps with an agreement that if you retain her, the hourly fee with be charged to the retainer.

As mentioned before, read the NOLO divorce guide and find a therapist to talk to, so that you aren't paying 1k per hour to vent.

I've been through this. If you feel like you might be in danger, decide who you trust. For me, it was one of my brothers. Told him if anything bad happened to me, he should know where to look. It felt like a big load off my plate.
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by hicabob »

lsk1 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:25 pm I don't have 50K of my own in a separate checking account. I could legally take 50K from our joint checking but it doesn't mean that I will have the same opportunity when more money are needed.
The cheaper lawyer was telling me that the money for her fees would come from my husband, however as soon as I came to get a second consultation she asked for a retainer which I must provide and file immediately if I want to work with her.
Bad situation from all sides.
Take half from the joint checking and set expectations.
summerof42
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by summerof42 »

Lots of great advice here. As someone who went through a divorce after 20 years of marriage, here’s what I learned. Like you, I was a stay-at-home Mom as well and only just started working prior to the divorce. I found out he was having an affair.
  • Forget about being kind and trustworthy, be a pit bull, decisions to be made will affect the rest of your life. You put a lot into this marriage and deserve to be happy, healthy, and move on.
  • Until divorce papers are filed, he/she can take out any funds he wishes; yes, that includes draining the accounts, even if both names are on the accounts.
. SO PLEASE FILE ASAP!
  • Depending on the state you live in (I live in a no-fault state) so even though he had an affair, everything was split 50/50 including ALL retirement funds, savings, and any investments. You can fight for specific bonds and other investments and it certainly doesn’t hurt to try.
  • FIGHT for half of his pension(s) that’s what I did. When you do so, make sure your attorney fills out the QDRO forms. I say this because even though getting half of his pension(s) may indicate as such in the divorce decree, unless the QDRO is filed, you won’t receive it.
  • FIGHT for a monthly maintenance fee which more than likely you will receive given you are a stay-at-home Mom. The amount is typically based on his salary so you will receive an equal amount of monies. If you plan on staying in the home determine your monthly cost, or for a condo or apartment so you can be ready to present this information to his attorney or the judge
.

Given my boys were still in school, I wanted to remain in the home until the youngest turned 18 (3 yrs). To make matters worse, he also demanded interest be paid. Can you image wanting to make $$$ for your sons having a roof over their heads? As such I needed to take his name off the mortgage, but w/o my knowledge, my Ex filed for a JUDGEMENT, which means I would be unable to get any kind of a loan until he received his payment from the sale of the home, plus interest and only judgment removed. Talk about a double sword. I couldn’t refinance and get his name off the mortgage as he wanted with the judgement! I had to call him and get it temporarily removed. But he made sure to issue it again. Worse yet, when a judgment is issued it remains as a public record for 30 yrs!!!! Lesson learned, i would have demanded as part of our agreement no judgement issued.
  • Last but not least, if he is paying monthly maintenance (alimony), let’s say for 10 years, make sure he takes out a life insurance policy equally to the 10 yrs of maintenance.
. Otherwise if he passes away, you’ll never receive the full amount.

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of him to anyone including family. His attorney will do his/her best to use anything against you. I didn’t even speak ill about or to his girlfriend and even welcomed her when I met her when he had the audacity to bring her to a family affair. As a matter of fact, I welcomed her to the family, so I could be the better person. I’m sure my Ex wanted a cat fight and I didn’t want to give him the pleasure; he’s not worth it.

Please know things WILL and do get better. Life finds a way :happy

I only wish i knew about this forum years ago. Advice from friends, family and even the attorney is not always the best. He had a great attorney which his parents paid for and I was just trying to survive. My Mom had also just passed away prior to the divorce.

Good luck!
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

LilyFleur wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:47 pm
lsk1 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:29 pm He can change beneficiaries at any time.
This would be a good time to get some credit cards in your own name only while you can apply based on your husband's income. When you file for divorce, cancel the shared credit cards as soon as possible, and start using your own so that it is easy to see what debt is yours. He could start running up the shared credit cards.
[ quote fixed by admin LadyGeek]

I am not the only one who has the additional cards. Both of my daughters do. One of his adult daughters who lives in Europe also got his cards recently because she struggles financially.

These cards have astronomical charges every month and I could end up being responsible for all as a spouse regardless whether I have a card or not in case he leaves the country.
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

BarbBrooklyn wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:26 pm Lsk, are you paying for these consults at the lawyer's hourly rate?

You cannot expect an attorney to work for free.
[ quote fixed by admin LadyGeek]

Of course I pay for the consults
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scorcher31
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by scorcher31 »

I have no legal experience but I'm curious. Can't a divorce lawyer just take a certain percent of the total winnings/payout with no retainer? I know that is how it can work with injury cases and malpractice cases at times. California is a 50/50 split state so if there are millions in total, the lawyer could make great money by agreeing to takes 5-10% of the wife's awarded monies. If the husband's accounts are locked down when the divorce is filed, there is no reason to think they would not get the money.

As a physician what I can say is, many of us have no parental help to fund our education. I wouldn't not be worried about paying for your adult children. You husband may still do that, and there is a possibility the 529 could be frozen and split as well (you would have to ask your lawyer).
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

lsk1 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:47 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:26 pm Lsk, are you paying for these consults at the lawyer's hourly rate?

You cannot expect an attorney to work for free.
[ quote fixed by admin LadyGeek]

Of course I pay for the consults
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by BarbBrooklyn »

Are you saying that he has children from another marriage/relationship?

That certainly complicates matters.

Is there a prenup?
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."
tunafish
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by tunafish »

I haven't read everything.

I think the $50K lawyer does not want the case. She basically said so originally when she told the OP to stay with the wretched spouse. Now she is saying so with an increased fee. Look for a better lawyer. I live in the boonies in Rhode Island, but I put on my big girl hat and sometimes drive to Boston for medical care. You can do the equivalent for legal care.

Get going on this. The sooner you start, the sooner that wretched husband is out of your life. He has you wound up in scary scenarios so you are hardly making any progress. Think for yourself. I know this is hard to do when he's probably been controlling you for years. This looks like a classic abusing spouse situation.
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by LadyGeek »

As a reminder, this is a personal finance and investing forum. Emotions are riding high, but relationship issues are off-topic and should be discussed elsewhere.

Please stay focused on the financial aspects and state your concerns in a civil, factual manner. It will also help the OP to organize her thoughts and determine a plan of action.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by ResearchMed »

scorcher31 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:49 pm I have no legal experience but I'm curious. Can't a divorce lawyer just take a certain percent of the total winnings/payout with no retainer? I know that is how it can work with injury cases and malpractice cases at times. California is a 50/50 split state so if there are millions in total, the lawyer could make great money by agreeing to takes 5-10% of the wife's awarded monies. If the husband's accounts are locked down when the divorce is filed, there is no reason to think they would not get the money.

As a physician what I can say is, many of us have no parental help to fund our education. I wouldn't not be worried about paying for your adult children. You husband may still do that, and there is a possibility the 529 could be frozen and split as well (you would have to ask your lawyer).
There are no "winnings" in a divorce. Everyone loses, unfortunately.

Someone above mentioned a "contingency" agreement for the attorney, and that doesn't make sense; it's another way of asking what you are asking.

In a divorce, they are splitting their own assets, already owned by one or both. In personal injury or such, there is a claim against another party for costs incurred (which could be minor or very substantial), and perhaps for pain/suffering.
That is very different that divvying up a couple's own assets, just between the two of them.

IF there is such a thing as a contingent fee agreement in a divorce (perhaps in very high value, where the money if far beyond what is needed for support, college, retirement, etc.), there are such things, but ... ??

RM
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fyre4ce
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by fyre4ce »

LilyFleur wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:47 pm <snip>

I think divorce attorneys eyeball the size of the assets and determine a percentage that they will take. Of course, a collaborative, amicable divorce is much less expensive than a hostile one. I had to go to court multiple times, and it was very expensive. I have had friends who paid the fee for a mediator for divorce, only to have completely wasted the money because the divorce was too difficult for mediation. I think I spent about $60,000; I had a friend who spent at least $150,000. Reasonable people don't want to fritter away their family resources on attorney fees. But unfortunately, not everyone is reasonable in a divorce. California law is quite clear. But some parties believe they are above the law.
Do you, or anyone else, know what controls are in place (if any) to limit the expenditure by a spouse on legal fees during a divorce? I'm asking because I have an acquaintance who is in an unhappy marriage, and her husband explicitly threatened to spend the entire family nest egg on lawyers if she were to file for divorce. Presumably, this would take the form of filing all kinds of motions to grind the gears of the process as much as possible and generate billable hours on both sides. Maybe he could even pay his lawyer some inflated rate, say, $1,500/hr instead of $500. I imagine many lawyers would be happy to go along with this plan. I understand the need to allow each party to get the representation they think they need, but it seems like there should be some limits as well, for this reason. Seems like this could be a risk here too, although maybe to not such an extreme degree.

Of course, threatening this course of action to dissuade a divorce filing is one thing. Following through with it if she did file is another matter. He would be wasting his own money too.
Last edited by fyre4ce on Sun May 15, 2022 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

tunafish wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:10 pm I haven't read everything.

I think the $50K lawyer does not want the case. She basically said so originally when she told the OP to stay with the wretched spouse. Now she is saying so with an increased fee. Look for a better lawyer. I live in the boonies in Rhode Island, but I put on my big girl hat and sometimes drive to Boston for medical care. You can do the equivalent for legal care.

Get going on this. The sooner you start, the sooner that wretched husband is out of your life. He has you wound up in scary scenarios so you are hardly making any progress. Think for yourself. I know this is hard to do when he's probably been controlling you for years. This looks like a classic abusing spouse situation.
I am trying. It is not a matter of me driving somewhere.I'd be happy to drive anywhere. It is whether the lawyers wish to take a case in my area, in my courthouse. They must do it here, where I live. And the absolute majority doesn't want. Every single one of almost 50 lawyers I called do not work with people from my county
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lsk1
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by lsk1 »

BarbBrooklyn wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:07 pm Are you saying that he has children from another marriage/relationship?

That certainly complicates matters.

Is there a prenup?
yes, grown kids from previous and no prenup
ChrisC
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by ChrisC »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:33 pm
scorcher31 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:49 pm I have no legal experience but I'm curious. Can't a divorce lawyer just take a certain percent of the total winnings/payout with no retainer? I know that is how it can work with injury cases and malpractice cases at times. California is a 50/50 split state so if there are millions in total, the lawyer could make great money by agreeing to takes 5-10% of the wife's awarded monies. If the husband's accounts are locked down when the divorce is filed, there is no reason to think they would not get the money.

As a physician what I can say is, many of us have no parental help to fund our education. I wouldn't not be worried about paying for your adult children. You husband may still do that, and there is a possibility the 529 could be frozen and split as well (you would have to ask your lawyer).
There are no "winnings" in a divorce. Everyone loses, unfortunately.

Someone above mentioned a "contingency" agreement for the attorney, and that doesn't make sense; it's another way of asking what you are asking.

In a divorce, they are splitting their own assets, already owned by one or both. In personal injury or such, there is a claim against another party for costs incurred (which could be minor or very substantial), and perhaps for pain/suffering.
That is very different that divvying up a couple's own assets, just between the two of them.

IF there is such a thing as a contingent fee agreement in a divorce (perhaps in very high value, where the money if far beyond what is needed for support, college, retirement, etc.), there are such things, but ... ??

RM
It’s professionally unethical to have a contingency fee arrangement in representing someone in a family law matter or criminal defense matter. See the California Bar Rule 1.5 mentioned before. However, once a client cannot afford legal representation in a family law matter, the lawyer can continue representation without payment from the client and hope the client will be awarded attorney’s fees and expenses assessed against the other side during specific matters in the case or at the end of the case by the judge presiding in the case. So, in that case, payment for services is essentially contingent on favorable rulings by the judge — you can’t bank on that.

The lawyer can also request to withdraw from representation with the approval from the judge. If the judge grants the withdrawal petition/motion that ends the lawyer’s continued representation. The judge could deny the petition, keep the lawyer in the case, and later decide not to award attorney’s fees against the other side in favor of the client and lawyer kept in the case. Essentially, the lawyer has rendered continued services on a pro bono basis.
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by Lee_WSP »

scorcher31 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:49 pm I have no legal experience but I'm curious. Can't a divorce lawyer just take a certain percent of the total winnings/payout with no retainer? I know that is how it can work with injury cases and malpractice cases at times. California is a 50/50 split state so if there are millions in total, the lawyer could make great money by agreeing to takes 5-10% of the wife's awarded monies. If the husband's accounts are locked down when the divorce is filed, there is no reason to think they would not get the money.

As a physician what I can say is, many of us have no parental help to fund our education. I wouldn't not be worried about paying for your adult children. You husband may still do that, and there is a possibility the 529 could be frozen and split as well (you would have to ask your lawyer).
No.
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

Very sorry you are going through this.

Have you checked this site (Justia)? It allows you to search for attorneys (by specialty) who may offer video conferencing in CA. Given the pandemic, many people use video conferencing for many services. Contested divorce is one of several search options under "services". Perhaps you have already checked out the CA state bar association also.

Some offer a free consult also.

https://www.justia.com/lawyers/divorce/california

I do hope you can find a good attorney to help you. There are also divorce support groups, many that could be online through Meet up, etc.

https://www.meetup.com/topics/divorcesupport/
Cherrypink
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by Cherrypink »

Kids are ours. My husband is a scary and unpredictable person. When cornered he could do awful things. He doesnt need to empty 529, he could just change beneficiaries.
[/quote]

Does ur husband loves the kids? Is he a good dad? A guy could be an awful husband but could be an amazing dad.. I m just saying this because if he cares for his kids then he wouldn’t do anything that will hurt them at least for their education.

My friend’s ex was a cheater and a liar as a husband but a caring father.. he pays for all their private school.
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Re: Ways to protect myself [Prior to divorce]

Post by Cherrypink »

If ur soon to be ex wants to keep any relationship with the kids then he wouldn’t let them suffer like that.. if he takes that 529 fund from kids then he is going to loose them forever..

Also i would like to think about asset for urself . Protect urself first because kids will pay their loans but if u lost ur retirement fund then it will be hard
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