Long Term Care Insurance

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
Post Reply
Wrench
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:21 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Wrench »

[/quote]

I will propose you look at this statement in a slightly different light and see if that alters your viewpoint at all....

"As just one example, my FIL purchased LTCi in his 50s for he and his spouse. He ended up not needing it until age 91, and then only for 6 months. With the 60 day waiting period he received 4 month of benefits, which as it turned out only covered about 1/2 the cost of his care. His spouse is healthy as can be and may never need it. For them, it turned out not to be a particularly good deal, even though the premiums were only about $200 per month. "

- by having LTCi did it allow your parents to have a higher AA since they did not have to reserve funds for LTC?
- by having LTCi did it allow your parents to feel safe in utilizing more of their funds for life/heirs/charity?
[/quote]
To answer your questions, No and No. Both FIL and MIL were (are) not knowledgable about investments. Their financial affairs were handled by two different advisors (IMO poorly) and there was never a discussion of "asset allocation", nor about how to utilize more of their funds for other purposes.

I do believe my FIL "slept better at night" knowing he had LTCi. By the time he needed it, he did not really comprehend that it only covered half the cost of his care. My MIL was too concerned about her husband's health to focus on finances and was, and still is, happy to have her family take care of finances. We have not invested more aggressively since FIL's death because of LTCi because she is financially conservative and would not be comfortable with us doing so.

Wrench
chassis
Posts: 2182
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:28 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by chassis »

martincmartin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:11 am I'm 52 and about to retire. Should I get long term care insurance?

On the one hand, getting insurance for a big expense makes sense, and long term care can be a big expense.

On the other hand, LTC insurance seems like a relatively new kind of insurance. I hear many insurance companies left the market since the payouts seemed to be higher than expected, so they were losing money. Then the regulators allowed companies to raise rates -- a lot. Going forward, who knows what will happen.

Also, there are apparently lots of terms and conditions. It may not cover the first N months of stay, but that might be from when you notify the company of wanting to use the benefits, not when you first enter long term care. Also, new types of care that may become popular, even standard, after your insurance contract was written, may not be covered. I believe there were cases of this in the past, for "memory floors" of LTC if I recall correctly.

So all of this can get confusing, and there's a good chance that, by the time I need long term care, it won't be me sorting all this out, but my kids. They may not have the aptitude or patience to read through all the fine print and make sure the LTC they get me is what my insurance will cover.

So I'm torn between getting it or trying to self insure.

How have others approached this decision? Any way to think about it to help me?
My answer is no.

A relative has "lifetime pay" LTC insurance which amounts to paying in advance for care. If premium payments are stopped, coverage stops. It's a very poor choice and unfortunate that this policy was enacted.

Another relative has a paid-up LTC policy where an increment (for example $100k) of coverage was purchased, with no continuation of premium payments after the $100k of coverage was achieved. This is a less egregious but still follows the principles of insurance, read further.

Like all insurance, without exception, LTC policy benefit accrues to the issuer in the vast majority of cases. This is how the insurance industry works. It's a numbers game: probability and actuarial science. Because of this, the likelihood is very low that the insured will receive care from an LTC policy which equals or exceeds the economic value of all premium payments.

Summarizing, my answer is no.
john0608
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:22 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by john0608 »

glad i found this thread as i was thinking about this issue and wanted to get the bogleheads POV

years ago when having prelim meetings with Fidelity Financial Advisors they brought in a Fidelity Long Term Care specialist that wanted to charge $20,000 for a single premium policy for me and my wife for $100,000 policy or something like that. Obviously it was a no-go for me and it soured me on Fidelity permanently. I guess at that time that was their routine for anyone meeting with their Financial advisors, try to sell a huge single premium long term care policy which i am sure the broker was going to make a large % on

i have heard or read that in general there is mostly dissatisfaction or buyer remorse when purchasing LTC insurance and that premium increases are a regular occurrence.

I guess i should read this entire thread but wondering if anyone not in the LTC insurance business can justify its purchase?
Silk McCue
Posts: 8951
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:11 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Silk McCue »

john0608 wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:18 pm glad i found this thread as i was thinking about this issue and wanted to get the bogleheads POV

years ago when having prelim meetings with Fidelity Financial Advisors they brought in a Fidelity Long Term Care specialist that wanted to charge $20,000 for a single premium policy for me and my wife for $100,000 policy or something like that. Obviously it was a no-go for me and it soured me on Fidelity permanently. I guess at that time that was their routine for anyone meeting with their Financial advisors, try to sell a huge single premium long term care policy which i am sure the broker was going to make a large % on

i have heard or read that in general there is mostly dissatisfaction or buyer remorse when purchasing LTC insurance and that premium increases are a regular occurrence.

I guess i should read this entire thread but wondering if anyone not in the LTC insurance business can justify its purchase?
Read this thread and others that exist. No need for someone to convince you given the wealth of opinions and perspectives that have been carefully crafted by folks.

Cheers
smitcat
Posts: 13300
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

john0608 wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:18 pm glad i found this thread as i was thinking about this issue and wanted to get the bogleheads POV

years ago when having prelim meetings with Fidelity Financial Advisors they brought in a Fidelity Long Term Care specialist that wanted to charge $20,000 for a single premium policy for me and my wife for $100,000 policy or something like that. Obviously it was a no-go for me and it soured me on Fidelity permanently. I guess at that time that was their routine for anyone meeting with their Financial advisors, try to sell a huge single premium long term care policy which i am sure the broker was going to make a large % on

i have heard or read that in general there is mostly dissatisfaction or buyer remorse when purchasing LTC insurance and that premium increases are a regular occurrence.

I guess i should read this entire thread but wondering if anyone not in the LTC insurance business can justify its purchase?
"i have heard or read that in general there is mostly dissatisfaction or buyer remorse when purchasing LTC insurance and that premium increases are a regular occurrence."
Not in our case, I suggest you do your own research.
User avatar
Ray_McKigney
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Ray_McKigney »

WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:08 am I've shared real quotes on this forum multiple times. You may want to go back and read my posts.
As I made clear, I was asking you to state how much it would cost to insure against $1.9 million loss that you specifically called out.

(with a "wow!")
Master of my domain
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Point wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:52 pm
fortunefavored wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:30 am Like all insurance, you have to ask yourself why you are carrying it.

For most people, they want LTC to insure against catastrophic LTC costs. Unfortunately these plans no longer exist - you will quickly find they all have maximum payouts that top out in the $500K range (plus all the other hoops and restrictions you allude to.)

For most retiring early Bogleheads, $100K to $500K of payouts isn't going to be very useful in a true "20 years of alzheimer's care" scenario, so self-insuring makes more sense.

You're better off looking at other estate planning moves in a catastrophic scenario (especially if married.)
Spend some time looking at the exclusions, activities of daily living metrics imposed: daily, monthly, annual and lifetime. Also the non coverage during events that send you from the assisted living facility to the hospital or skilled nursing. You’ll probably see that the 500K can be well beneath the 500K with all the exclusions imposed. So, plan for serious out of pocket spending. Also understand that there is variability in facility cost by county, state and locale. So plan on being adept, flexible, and communicative with your stand-ins should you not be able to do so on your own behalf.
Point: "Spend some time looking at the exclusions"
Wow: It's true that most of the policies sold in the 1980's and the first half of the 1990's had a lot of exclusions and limitations. Fortunately, the federal gov't created some standards for long-term care insurance in 1996 and most policies since then have been issued with reasonable exclusions like: self-inflicted injuries, care provided by a family member, care provided outside the U.S. and care that is provided at no charge to you. These are all perfectly reasonable.

Point: "activities of daily living"
Wow: I'm not sure what your point is here. The federal guidelines for long-term care insurance requires that insurers use the activities of daily living to determine if a policyholder is eligible for benefits. About 99% of the policies sold will consider someone eligible for benefits if they need assistance with any 2 of the 6 activities of daily living or if they are cognitively impaired and need supervision to stay safe.

Point: "metrics imposed: daily, monthly, annual and lifetime."
Wow: Everyone applying for long-term care insurance can choose how much benefit they want. The benefit limits are not imposed by the insurance company. Anyone healthy enough to qualify for a policy can choose his/her benefit limits (even an unlimited policy).

Point: "Also the non coverage during events that send you from the assisted living facility to the hospital or skilled nursing."
Wow: This is false. With nearly every LTCi policy, benefits continue to be paid when in a hospital or a skilled nursing facility or even if just away from the assisted-living facility to visit family. It's called a "bed reservation" and most policies include it automatically or offer it as a rider.

Point: "You’ll probably see that the 500K can be well beneath the 500K with all the exclusions imposed."
Wow: Can you please provide an example of one exclusion that is arduous? The ones that I've listed are pretty reasonable, don't you think?

Point: "So, plan for serious out of pocket spending."
Wow: My MIL's policy covered nearly every penny of the cost of her care. She had to pay for the first 90 days of care. After that, the cost of her care was fully covered by the policy except for one week when my wife and I had to attend a funeral and the home health aide lived in our house 24/7. And, toward the end, when my MIL became bedridden, we had to have the home health aide here for 12+ hours each day. The policy paid for most of it, but not all of it. But that lasted less than a month.

Point: "Also understand that there is variability in facility cost by county, state and locale. So plan on being adept, flexible, and communicative with your stand-ins should you not be able to do so on your own behalf."
Wow: This is true whether someone self-funds or has insurance. Why would this be a reason for not buying long-term care insurance?
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

fortunefavored wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:30 am

For most people, they want LTC to insure against catastrophic LTC costs. Unfortunately these plans no longer exist - you will quickly find they all have maximum payouts that top out in the $500K range (plus all the other hoops and restrictions you allude to.)

For most retiring early Bogleheads, $100K to $500K of payouts isn't going to be very useful in a true "20 years of alzheimer's care" scenario, so self-insuring makes more sense.

You're better off looking at other estate planning moves in a catastrophic scenario (especially if married.)
FALSE!
These plans DO EXIST!!!!!
How many times do I have to say it?
:oops:
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Silk McCue
Posts: 8951
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:11 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Silk McCue »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:19 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:08 am I've shared real quotes on this forum multiple times. You may want to go back and read my posts.
As I made clear, I was asking you to state how much it would cost to insure against $1.9 million loss that you specifically called out.

(with a "wow!")
Nothing like waiting 10 months to reply to his response to you. He gave you his answer. You aren’t his client. He owes you nothing more.

Cheers
smitcat
Posts: 13300
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

chassis wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:29 pm
martincmartin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:11 am I'm 52 and about to retire. Should I get long term care insurance?

On the one hand, getting insurance for a big expense makes sense, and long term care can be a big expense.

On the other hand, LTC insurance seems like a relatively new kind of insurance. I hear many insurance companies left the market since the payouts seemed to be higher than expected, so they were losing money. Then the regulators allowed companies to raise rates -- a lot. Going forward, who knows what will happen.

Also, there are apparently lots of terms and conditions. It may not cover the first N months of stay, but that might be from when you notify the company of wanting to use the benefits, not when you first enter long term care. Also, new types of care that may become popular, even standard, after your insurance contract was written, may not be covered. I believe there were cases of this in the past, for "memory floors" of LTC if I recall correctly.

So all of this can get confusing, and there's a good chance that, by the time I need long term care, it won't be me sorting all this out, but my kids. They may not have the aptitude or patience to read through all the fine print and make sure the LTC they get me is what my insurance will cover.

So I'm torn between getting it or trying to self insure.

How have others approached this decision? Any way to think about it to help me?
My answer is no.

A relative has "lifetime pay" LTC insurance which amounts to paying in advance for care. If premium payments are stopped, coverage stops. It's a very poor choice and unfortunate that this policy was enacted.

Another relative has a paid-up LTC policy where an increment (for example $100k) of coverage was purchased, with no continuation of premium payments after the $100k of coverage was achieved. This is a less egregious but still follows the principles of insurance, read further.

Like all insurance, without exception, LTC policy benefit accrues to the issuer in the vast majority of cases. This is how the insurance industry works. It's a numbers game: probability and actuarial science. Because of this, the likelihood is very low that the insured will receive care from an LTC policy which equals or exceeds the economic value of all premium payments.

Summarizing, my answer is no.

"Like all insurance, without exception, LTC policy benefit accrues to the issuer in the vast majority of cases. This is how the insurance industry works"

Absolutely true, I agree 100%.
Is it also true that you have never had or have any insurance policies?
TravelforFun
Posts: 2799
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:05 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by TravelforFun »

smitcat wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:53 pm "i have heard or read that in general there is mostly dissatisfaction or buyer remorse when purchasing LTC insurance and that premium increases are a regular occurrence."
Not in our case, I suggest you do your own research.
Not in our case either and I've been paying the premium the last 15 years. I'm glad we have it.

TravelforFun
User avatar
Ray_McKigney
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Ray_McKigney »

Silk McCue wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 pm
Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:19 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:08 am I've shared real quotes on this forum multiple times. You may want to go back and read my posts.
As I made clear, I was asking you to state how much it would cost to insure against $1.9 million loss that you specifically called out.

(with a "wow!")
Nothing like waiting 10 months to reply to his response to you.
This thread is still active.

The cost of LTCi is still relevant.

Strange response given that I wasn't asking you and you just told someone else to "Read this thread and others that exist. No need for someone to convince you given the wealth of opinions and perspectives that have been carefully crafted by folks.
Silk McCue wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 pm He gave you his answer.
He didn't answer the question. You know that.
Silk McCue wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 pm You aren’t his client. He owes you nothing more.
I became a prospective client after you referred me to him Silk.

And I never said he owed me anything. Again, you know that.

Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon, I do wonder about your relationship to him.
Master of my domain
smitcat
Posts: 13300
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:45 pm
Silk McCue wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 pm
Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:19 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:08 am I've shared real quotes on this forum multiple times. You may want to go back and read my posts.
As I made clear, I was asking you to state how much it would cost to insure against $1.9 million loss that you specifically called out.

(with a "wow!")
Nothing like waiting 10 months to reply to his response to you.
This thread is still active.

The cost of LTCi is still relevant.

Strange response given that I wasn't asking you and you just told someone else to "Read this thread and others that exist. No need for someone to convince you given the wealth of opinions and perspectives that have been carefully crafted by folks.
Silk McCue wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 pm He gave you his answer.
He didn't answer the question. You know that.
Silk McCue wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 pm You aren’t his client. He owes you nothing more.
I became a prospective client after you referred me to him Silk.

And I never said he owed me anything. Again, you know that.

Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon, I do wonder about your relationship to him.

"I became a prospective client after you referred me to him Silk."
How do you know who WOW is, he has never accepted any PM's and I could never find out who he was?

"Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon"
I had no idea WOW had written a book, if you know his book and his name why not just call him up and ask the question(s)?
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:19 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:08 am I've shared real quotes on this forum multiple times. You may want to go back and read my posts.
As I made clear, I was asking you to state how much it would cost to insure against $1.9 million loss that you specifically called out.

(with a "wow!")
Where did (you, I, we) come up with $1.9 million? Even a relatively mid-size long-term care policy could end up netting more than $1.9 million to the portfolio compared to self-funding.

One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar.
One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding.

(still wow!)
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
sc9182
Posts: 2178
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:43 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by sc9182 »

We intend to self-fund/expenses not only LTC needs, but just-about every other needs such as: Medical Tourism (if required), any medical-trials, beta-procedures etc (which may or may-not be covered by Medicare and ilk), Vision/Dental among other things with -- with large Trad IRA portfolio. Good bit of such withdrawals (over AGI 7%) may be currently Tax-deductible.

So -- "One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar" (though this may almost make sense, drawing large withdrawals from Trad-IRA makes it almost feel like "Tax-Free"). So, in-a-way it could actually cost "less" than one dollar in our plan.

"One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding" this could be such an "incomplete" statement. What if self, spouse (or kids/disabled family) does NEVER incur LTC costs/needs -- Full 100% (or 200% or worse 300%-400%) of the ever-increasing premiums paid could "STRICTLY GO WASTED/LOST"
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:36 am ..
One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar.
One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding.
We have a Question:
What if one needs LTC needs - but LTCi pays say "then" 60% of costs -- and the needy party can't come-up with paying the "40%" remainder of the money; obviously, this person can't join CCRC due to "short" on "40%" funding.
Does one LTC insurance Co. send a check for that "60%" it owes ? Guessing the policy won't cover NOTHING (unless you also come up with the 40% shortfall amount from self-funding -- to be able to join CCRC) ?

What happens to party - if the "policy covered" amount exhausted -- say one $250K ? Would the person be kicked out of one CCRC then ?
Are there uniform/national-level guidelines on Guarantees/rights of LTCi policyholders -- which guarantees insurance/re-insurance, and full payment guarantees of amounts owed in 10-20-30-40-50 years later !? (we all know 2008/2009 many insurance/re-insurance Co.s going belly-up ..)

With that many unknowns -- 10,20,30,40,50 years down the line -- we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..

** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am We intend to self-fund/expenses not only LTC needs, but just-about every other needs such as: Medical Tourism (if required), any medical-trials, beta-procedures etc (which may or may-not be covered by Medicare and ilk), Vision/Dental among other things with -- with large Trad IRA portfolio. Good bit of such withdrawals (over AGI 7%) may be currently Tax-deductible.

So -- "One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar" (though this may almost make sense, drawing large withdrawals from Trad-IRA makes it almost feel like "Tax-Free"). So, in-a-way it could actually cost "less" than one dollar in our plan.

"One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding" this could be such an "incomplete" statement. What if self, spouse (or kids/disabled family) does NEVER incur LTC costs/needs -- Full 100% (or 200% or worse 300%-400%) of the ever-increasing premiums paid could "STRICTLY GO WASTED/LOST"
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:36 am ..
One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar.
One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding.
We have a Question:
What if one needs LTC needs - but LTCi pays say "then" 60% of costs -- and the needy party can't come-up with paying the "40%" remainder of the money; obviously, this person can't join CCRC due to "short" on "40%" funding.
Does one LTC insurance Co. send a check for that "60%" it owes ? Guessing the policy won't cover NOTHING (unless you also come up with the 40% shortfall amount from self-funding -- to be able to join CCRC) ?

What happens to party - if the "policy covered" amount exhausted -- say one $250K ? Would the person be kicked out of one CCRC then ?
Are there uniform/national-level guidelines on Guarantees/rights of LTCi policyholders -- which guarantees insurance/re-insurance, and full payment guarantees of amounts owed in 10-20-30-40-50 years later !? (we all know 2008/2009 many insurance/re-insurance Co.s going belly-up ..)

With that many unknowns -- 10,20,30,40,50 years down the line -- we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..

** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
your mental model needs a lot of work.
no time to reply today.
you'll have to wait until tomorrow.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Silk McCue
Posts: 8951
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:11 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Silk McCue »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:45 pm Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon, I do wonder about your relationship to him.
I read Scott Olson’s book after having already received quotes from him and got an improved education regarding LTCi before ever purchasing LTCi through him for my wife and I as we entered retirement a couple of years back. It received 5 stars as I felt that it helped educate me and could be helpful for others.

When you reached out to me on a post asking who I used I now see that I referred you to Scott as I have complete confidence in him.

I take your slanderous supposition as a personal offense. Please do not mention me in a post again.

Cheers
User avatar
Ray_McKigney
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Ray_McKigney »

WoW2012 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:51 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:08 am
A-Commoner wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:04 pm In Los Angeles today, the cost of long term care (ie the actual care, not the cost of premiums) is about $11k per month. Assuming both me and my wife land in a nursing home today and live there for 3 years, our total out of pocket cost is $792K.

If one already has at least $792k saved up, does it still make sense to buy LTC insurance? I’d much rather invest that in a 60:40 portfolio. In 30 years when long term care may really be needed, there would be more money to spend on the actual care than burning it off paying those premiums for 30 years.
Why do you think you and your wife will only need 3 years of care?
As I noted above, and which you are also well aware of, only a small number of those who ever need any LTC need the level of care that costs $11k, which is likely nursing home care. And about 75% of those who need that level of care need it for fewer than three years. It's obviously possible to need it for significantly longer than that, but the likelihood of both spouses consuming more than $800k of LTC is pretty remote. The data below from the AALTCI shows that out of 5,400 claims paid, which is out of over 10,000 insured people, the maximum amount paid for anyone was $1.9m.

Image
https://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-i ... im-amounts


The 1.9 million dollar claim was for a woman with dementia who started needing care 20 years ago.
How big do you think the claims will be 20 years from now?


wow!
You sell a product and have highlighted the worst case, the worst that might happen to someone if they don't buy your product.

Yet you refuse to give any idea about how much your product costs. In the case you called out, how much the premiums would be to protect someone against a $1.9 million LTC claim (and as you also state, as much larger claim 20 years from now).

It looks like a scare tactic.
Last edited by Ray_McKigney on Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Master of my domain
chassis
Posts: 2182
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:28 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by chassis »

If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?
User avatar
Ray_McKigney
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Ray_McKigney »

deleted
Last edited by Ray_McKigney on Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Master of my domain
User avatar
Ray_McKigney
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Ray_McKigney »

I should also say that Scott Olson was very helpful, knowledgeable and responsive on the phone and via email.

And he gave me (by far) the lowest quotes of any other broker I talked with.

It's only his posts here that I take issue with.
Master of my domain
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16795
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by ResearchMed »

chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?

This has been addressed previously here on BH.

Yes, WoW2012 sells LTC insurance.
Other BH members sell financial advising.
They are allowed to post here and also to discuss some of the general issues they cover when they are giving such advice to their clients.

But WoW2012 isn't soliciting here; we don't know who they actually are or how to reach them.
In other words, they aren't selling LTC insurance to any of us, unless coincidentally someone here is working with WoW without realizing it.

Some of us are annoyed because we cannot contact WoW to get more details about actual, real policies.
And others are annoyed that WoW does indeed sell such policies, albeit not here.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
tj
Posts: 9366
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by tj »

chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?
You literally cannot buy from him. He won't tell you who he is and has PMs turned off. All he has done is provide valuable information.
User avatar
Ray_McKigney
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Ray_McKigney »

Are you guys being genuine? :shock:

It's super easy to find out who he is. He's the only LTCi broker mentioned by name on Bogleheads.

Here's a hint:
Silk McCue wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:06 pm
Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:45 pm Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon, I do wonder about your relationship to him.
I read Scott Olson’s book after having already received quotes from him and got an improved education regarding LTCi before ever purchasing LTCi through him for my wife and I as we entered retirement a couple of years back. It received 5 stars as I felt that it helped educate me and could be helpful for others.

When you reached out to me on a post asking who I used I now see that I referred you to Scott as I have complete confidence in him.
Master of my domain
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16795
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by ResearchMed »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:14 pm Are you guys being genuine? :shock:

It's super easy to find out who he is. He's the only broker mentioned by name on Bogleheads.

Here's a hint:
Silk McCue wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:06 pm
Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:45 pm Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon, I do wonder about your relationship to him.
I read Scott Olson’s book after having already received quotes from him and got an improved education regarding LTCi before ever purchasing LTCi through him for my wife and I as we entered retirement a couple of years back. It received 5 stars as I felt that it helped educate me and could be helpful for others.

When you reached out to me on a post asking who I used I now see that I referred you to Scott as I have complete confidence in him.

I give up.
How do we all know that WoW is this particular LTC broker who also wrote a book that a BH member read and contacted?

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
User avatar
Ray_McKigney
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:48 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Ray_McKigney »

Good grief. :oops:
Master of my domain
Silk McCue
Posts: 8951
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:11 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Silk McCue »

chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?
It is no secret that WoW2012 sells LTC insurance. He provides industry expert knowledge and never solicits. You can’t even message him here.

Cheers
MikeG62
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:20 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:14 pm Are you guys being genuine? :shock:

It's super easy to find out who he is. He's the only LTCi broker mentioned by name on Bogleheads.

Here's a hint:
Silk McCue wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:06 pm
Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:45 pm Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon, I do wonder about your relationship to him.
I read Scott Olson’s book after having already received quotes from him and got an improved education regarding LTCi before ever purchasing LTCi through him for my wife and I as we entered retirement a couple of years back. It received 5 stars as I felt that it helped educate me and could be helpful for others.

When you reached out to me on a post asking who I used I now see that I referred you to Scott as I have complete confidence in him.
You are mistaken. Wow2012 is NOT Scott Olson.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
tj
Posts: 9366
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by tj »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:14 pm Are you guys being genuine? :shock:

It's super easy to find out who he is. He's the only LTCi broker mentioned by name on Bogleheads.

Here's a hint:
Silk McCue wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:06 pm
Ray_McKigney wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:45 pm Given how frequently and fervently you defend him here, your referrals to him, as well as your 5-star review of his book on Amazon, I do wonder about your relationship to him.
I read Scott Olson’s book after having already received quotes from him and got an improved education regarding LTCi before ever purchasing LTCi through him for my wife and I as we entered retirement a couple of years back. It received 5 stars as I felt that it helped educate me and could be helpful for others.

When you reached out to me on a post asking who I used I now see that I referred you to Scott as I have complete confidence in him.
There's certainly no evidence to make that connection on these forums.
Iconicus
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:19 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Iconicus »

WoW2012 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm
ncbill wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:03 pm

Curious how much that $300k plan WoW2012 sold pays out annually/lifetime.
It was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
None of the agents that I've worked with this month were able to find such a plan (I don't live in NY). I see that this post was about a year ago. If it is true that you can still buy such a catastrophic plan policy (elim. period = 3yr, unlimited benefit period), please PM me.
User avatar
WoodSpinner
Posts: 3504
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:15 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoodSpinner »

chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?
Absolutely NOT!!

He fas done a great job of informing, not SOLICITING.

It’s very valuable insights!

WoodSpinner
WoodSpinner
User avatar
WoodSpinner
Posts: 3504
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:15 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoodSpinner »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:30 pm Good grief. :oops:
So far, you are the only one I have read make this allegation!

WoodSpinner
WoodSpinner
MikeG62
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:20 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

Iconicus wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:48 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm
ncbill wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:03 pm

Curious how much that $300k plan WoW2012 sold pays out annually/lifetime.
It was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
None of the agents that I've worked with this month were able to find such a plan (I don't live in NY). I see that this post was about a year ago. If it is true that you can still buy such a catastrophic plan policy (elim. period = 3yr, unlimited benefit period), please PM me.
I don't think that is a particularly attractive catastrophic policy. After all, you are going to spend $250,000 with a very low probability of getting any material benefits (you need to be getting care for >36 months before the real benefits kick in).

I did investigate LTCi policies with a long elimination period several months ago (as I worked through various policy options) and they did not make economic sense to me. Standard policies made a lot more sense. Let me see if I can dig up the info I was sent from the LTCi agent.

Ok found it.

Increasing elimination period from 180 to 365 days dropped premium by only 7%

Increasing elimination period to 730 days:
Premium was 19% lower than with 180 day elimination period
Premium was 13% lower than with 365 day elimination period

Increasing elimination period to 1095 days:
Premium was 37% lower than with 180 day elimination period
Premium was 32% lower than with 365 day elimination period
Premium was 23% lower than with 730 day elimination period

This was for a policy with a $200 daily benefit and a facility benefit period of only 36 months. I don't think the premium reductions would have been materially different had the quote been for a $300 or $400 per day daily benefit (assuming the insurer even offered that).
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am We intend to self-fund/expenses not only LTC needs, but just-about every other needs such as: Medical Tourism (if required), any medical-trials, beta-procedures etc (which may or may-not be covered by Medicare and ilk), Vision/Dental among other things with -- with large Trad IRA portfolio. Good bit of such withdrawals (over AGI 7%) may be currently Tax-deductible.
Medicare Part B is not required. Are you going to self-fund that?
Medigap policies are not required. Are you going to self-fund that?
Medicare Part D is not required. Are you going to self-fund that?
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am
So -- "One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar" (though this may almost make sense, drawing large withdrawals from Trad-IRA makes it almost feel like "Tax-Free"). So, in-a-way it could actually cost "less" than one dollar in our plan.
You are overlooking the most important part: the lost investment returns.

Suppose you need care for 5 years. Assuming, the cost of care does not go up each year, if you withdraw $100K/year out of your Trad-IRA, you'd withdraw $500K from your Trad-IRA. How much do you lose in investment returns? If your wife outlives you 10 years (which is not improbable) she will lose 10+ years worth of investment returns on that money.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am What if self, spouse (or kids/disabled family) does NEVER incur LTC costs/needs --
You're right, sc. It always make sense to self-insure for something that will never happen.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am Full 100% (or 200% or worse 300%-400%) of the ever-increasing premiums paid could "STRICTLY GO WASTED/LOST"
Policies sold today will not have the big rate increases older policies had because the policies sold today already include those rate increases in the current pricing. This is true in all 50 states.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am
We have a Question:
What if one needs LTC needs - but LTCi pays say "then" 60% of costs -- and the needy party can't come-up with paying the "40%" remainder of the money; obviously, this person can't join CCRC due to "short" on "40%" funding.
Does one LTC insurance Co. send a check for that "60%" it owes ? Guessing the policy won't cover NOTHING (unless you also come up with the 40% shortfall amount from self-funding -- to be able to join CCRC) ?
Why would someone make the decision to self-insure for long-term care when they are missing a lot of basic, factual information about long term care insurance?

If you're planning on funding 100% of the cost of your care, why would you be worried if a long-term care policy didn't cover 40% of the cost? You'd still be ahead of the game with a policy that only covered 60%.

A few important clarifications:
1) Most people who need long-term care receive their care at home, not in facilities.
2) You used the term CCRC, but I think you mean any facility that provides long-term care.
3) If a long-term care policy's benefits don't cover the full cost of care, the insured makes up the difference with their own income and/or assets. If the insured qualifies for Medicaid, the policy will pay the full benefit and Medicaid will pay the remainder. The insurance company must pay the provider the amount stated in the policy. If there is a shortfall, the care provider gets paid by the care recipient (and/or those loved ones responsible for the care recipient).
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am

What happens to party - if the "policy covered" amount exhausted -- say one $250K ? Would the person be kicked out of one CCRC then ?
The person would not be kicked out of the facility. The person would simply switch to self-funding.

However, if the person had a long-term care partnership policy, and they needed to apply for Medicaid funding, their assets would be protected from Medicaid up to an amount equal to what the policy had paid in benefits. In short, the rules for qualifying for Medicaid funded long-term care are more lenient for people who own long-term care partnership policies.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am
Are there uniform/national-level guidelines on Guarantees/rights of LTCi policyholders -- which guarantees insurance/re-insurance, and full payment guarantees of amounts owed in 10-20-30-40-50 years later !?

Yes.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am (we all know 2008/2009 many insurance/re-insurance Co.s going belly-up ..)
When AIG needed a bailout in the fall of 2008, it was NOT the AIG insurance companies that went "belly up". It was the non-regulated part of the company that sold non-regulated credit default swaps that went "belly up". AIG ended up selling many of its insurance companies (which were all very profitable) in order to pay back to the government all of the "bailout money" plus a profit of about $22 billion.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100397698
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am
With that many unknowns -- 10,20,30,40,50 years down the line...
Just because something is unknown to you, doesn't mean it's unknown. You may want to do a little more research before making a final decision about self-insuring for long-term care.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

sc9182 wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..

** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.

A few thoughts on self-funding:

The WORST way to self-insure for long-term care is to:

Tell yourself
you’re going to
self-insure for
long-term care.

That’s it.

That’s the worst way to self-insure. Many people tell themselves and only themselves their “plan”. They never have a meaningful discussion with the people who mean the most to them.

Here’s something many people don't think about:
When you need care, you won’t be the one making the decisions anymore.
When your health has been compromised and you need help with basic, daily tasks, the people you’ve invited into your life, your dearest loved ones, will be responsible for your care and safety.
They’ll be the ones making the decisions.

If you’ve never shared your plans to self-insure with them, how do you know they will fulfill your wishes? Keep in mind:
Planning for long-term care is not planning for your death.
Planning for long-term care is planning for your quality of life
(should you ever need daily assistance).
Planning for long-term care is planning for your loved ones’ quality of life (should you ever need daily assistance).

Long-term care planning is not about “you” it's about “them” (your loved ones). The purpose of planning for long-term care is to minimize the negative consequences a long-term care event would have on your family's physical, emotional, and financial well-being.

Not everyone can purchase long-term care insurance. You may not be healthy enough to purchase a policy. You should still make a plan. Making a plan for long-term care requires some effort, some research and some serious discussions with those you love and who love you.

Your long-term care plan should answer questions like:
If you can stay at home, who will provide the hands-on care? Who will manage the care? If you can’t stay home, where will you go?
Approximately, how much will your care cost per month? Worst case scenario? Best case scenario?
How will the care be paid for? Income sources? Assets?
Who will be the durable power of attorney and handle the finances?
Who will be the healthcare surrogate and handle healthcare decisions?
Are the advance healthcare directives in place?

Keep in mind, you don’t know when you may need care or how long you may need care. You can’t assume you’ll need only $1X to pay for your care. Your care may cost $2X or $3X. We all expected my (first) father-in-law to die within a year after he had his stroke. He lived seven and a half years after the stroke. We expected his care to cost $1X. It cost $5X, which, in his case, was everything they had ever saved. He spent the last two and a half years of his life on Medicaid.

Therefore, you must make a list of your assets and prioritize them in the order in which they should be liquidated to pay for your care.

Make sure your loved ones understand and are in agreement with the strategy (especially your spouse/partner, if applicable). If you don’t make it clear to your loved ones that you want them to spend the assets to pay for your care, they may decide to sacrifice their own health/career/family to try to "save the 401(k)".

Regardless of when it's addressed, a Long Term Care decision lies in wait for most of us. Better to deal with it sooner, when you have more options, rather than later when it’s a crisis.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:19 pm
You sell a product and have highlighted the worst case, the worst that might happen to someone if they don't buy your product.

Yet you refuse to give any idea about how much your product costs. In the case you called out, how much the premiums would be to protect someone against a $1.9 million LTC claim (and as you also state, as much larger claim 20 years from now).

It looks like a scare tactic.
A few points:

1) I've been posting on this forum for 11 years. No one has ever claimed that I use "scare tactics". I'd be very interested in a poll. Can all the forum members vote on whether or not wow2012 uses scare tactics?

2) I did NOT highlight the worst case. The worst case is much GREATER than $1.9 million. That was a long-term care insurance claim that started over 20 years ago when care was much cheaper. If that same claimant started needing care today her claim would end up being well over $3.0 million.

3) Even a modest policy can protect a lot of assets. My mother-in-law had about $375,000 of benefits in her policy when she started to need home care. The policy paid out about $300,000 of benefits over 4 years. During that time her estate grew by about $725,000. Why did her estate grew? We didn't have to liquidate assets to pay for her care AND her assets grew substantially. We were able to invest in high-quality stocks because we didn't need the money right away. We had a 5 to 10 year time horizon. And her main rental property increased in value significantly.

4) How much long-term care insurance someone should buy should depend upon how much of their assets they want to protect. If they live in a state that has a good "partnership program", they can have their assets protected even if the policy runs out of benefits. Also, their policy will have guaranteed growth. They can know exactly how much of their assets will be protected from Medicaid spend down and protected from Medicaid estate recovery.

5) If someone wants an unlimited amount of long-term care coverage, they can buy a policy with unlimited coverage (in every state except NY). Depending upon their health and their state of residence they may be able to buy one of these unlimited LTC policies with a guaranteed death benefit if care is not needed.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?
If I'm just a salesman, it should be easy to refute my arguments.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Ray_McKigney wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:38 pm I should also say that Scott Olson was very helpful, knowledgeable and responsive on the phone and via email.

And he gave me (by far) the lowest quotes of any other broker I talked with.
Why didn't you buy a policy?
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

ResearchMed wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:06 pm
chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?

This has been addressed previously here on BH.

Yes, WoW2012 sells LTC insurance.
Other BH members sell financial advising.
They are allowed to post here and also to discuss some of the general issues they cover when they are giving such advice to their clients.

But WoW2012 isn't soliciting here; we don't know who they actually are or how to reach them.
In other words, they aren't selling LTC insurance to any of us, unless coincidentally someone here is working with WoW without realizing it.

Some of us are annoyed because we cannot contact WoW to get more details about actual, real policies.
And others are annoyed that WoW does indeed sell such policies, albeit not here.

RM

Thank you for your kind words.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

tj wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:07 pm
chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?
You literally cannot buy from him. He won't tell you who he is and has PMs turned off. All he has done is provide valuable information.
Thank you, tj, for your kind words of support.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

Iconicus wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:48 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm
ncbill wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:03 pm

Curious how much that $300k plan WoW2012 sold pays out annually/lifetime.
It was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
None of the agents that I've worked with this month were able to find such a plan (I don't live in NY). I see that this post was about a year ago. If it is true that you can still buy such a catastrophic plan policy (elim. period = 3yr, unlimited benefit period), please PM me.

There are policies like that which include a lump sum single premium (which is used to pay for the care during the elimination period) followed by annual premiums to pay for the unlimited long-term care benefits.

However, if you're healthy enough to qualify for a traditional LTCi policy, you can get an unlimited benefit period with a 180-day elimination period FOR LESS THAN a policy with a three-year elimination period and an unlimited benefit period.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

WoodSpinner wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:23 pm
chassis wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:26 pm If WoW2012 sells LTC insurance, he/she should recuse him/herself from this thread?

Anyone else agree?
Absolutely NOT!!

He fas done a great job of informing, not SOLICITING.

It’s very valuable insights!

WoodSpinner
Thank you WoodSpinner. You've made my day!

:D
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Post Reply