Family money Envy and how it chages relationships

[JustDucky]

Unfortunately, word leaked out from my parents that Mr. Average, who has always lived below his means, i.e., never had a nice car, bought an average house, saved and invested for 30 years, happily married to spouse #1, is well off by family standards. This has changed the way other family members perceive me and I don't like it.

I wonder how other successful Bogleheads have dealt with the problem? Now family get together's invariably focus on me and why I don't "enjoy" my money. I try to tell them that I do enjoy my money, i.e. watching it grow over time.

I'll give one example where the relationship has changed. When we go out now, it's assumed that I'll pick up the tab or leave a substantial tip. Any ideas ,other than shunning my relatives? Thanks, WD

[Valuethinker]

Unfortunately, word leaked out from my parents that Mr. Average, who has always lived below his means, i.e., never had a nice car, bought an average house, saved and invested for 30 years, happily married to spouse #1, is well off by family standards. This has changed the way other family members perceive me and I don't like it.

I wonder how other successful Bogleheads have dealt with the problem? Now family get together's invariably focus on me and why I don't "enjoy" my money. I try to tell them that I do enjoy my money, i.e. watching it grow over time.

I'll give one example where the relationship has changed. When we go out now, it's assumed that I'll pick up the tab or leave a substantial tip. Any ideas ,other than shunning my relatives? Thanks, WD

1. straight bat. Tell them you were worried about the future (they should relate to that if they read newspapers) and so prepared for it.

2. if they expect you to pick up the tab, explain to them that you don't value their time well enough to carry the burden for them.

I distinguish between the unfortunate (one cousin has severe epilepsy and has never been able to hold down a full time job) and the merely spendthrift.

[biasion]

Despite my very young age, I know I have been chastised on this board for my exceedingly negative and cyincal views of human nature. However, without going into detail, I really do feel that I have a much better knowledge of just how evil, superficial, petty and useless most people can be.

You have pretty much summed up the story of my life. When I was in college, I had the reputation of literally being homeless. I would wear old clothes, old shoes, I drove an old rusty car. I just didn't care: looks didn't even occur to me as having to be important. LAter, when I became a physician, I didn't even have to clean up my act, I just started re-wearing the same old button down shirts from my catholic high school and ties.

So where does this take me? Well, I turned over circles of friends a lot. I was always a high achiever and always strove to do better, but judging from the way I look, you can't really tell... until you see where I live and talk to me. So this is what happened. Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me. There is nothing you can do save be a reactionary classist, and admit that you can only hang out with people of similar socioeconomic status. It just doesn't work, no matter how much you want to be "one of the simple people". You might be a pawn compared to some of these CEO's, but if you have one cent more than most people, a one year newer car, or anything that anyone else might possibly want but currently cannot have, you will be hated. It is that simple: it's human nature.

I have this friend who is fantastically wealthy, I mean like "Hampton's" kind of old world CT yankee type money. He is the perfect gentleman, and comes from a stupendously wealthy famly. They too are very simple, and you couldn't tell based on their 10 (or even 20 year old, in one case!) cars on how fantastically wealthy they are until you see all their boats, their properties, etc. So simple, so nice. Yet this friend always advised me that you have to hang out with people of your SES, because you will always get people to see your success and say "Oh.... it must be nice" when they finally catch on and start to hate you.

Initially, I thought he was a total reactionary. Then I lived my life. He was right.

The green monster is everywhere. If people will be toxic about your good habits, ignore them. They will only drag you down. You worked so hard and sacrificed so much, enjoy it with those who deserve your attention.

[retiredjg]

I don't have any advice, but just thought I'd share some sympathy. That's why I don't buy lottery tickets. Good luck with this disappointing situation.

[retiredjg]

However, without going into detail, I really do feel that I have a much better knowledge of just how evil, superficial, petty and useless most people can be.

Not to start a flame war but, in my experience, people tend to rise or fall to the expectations placed on them.

[ruralavalon]

I'll give one example where the relationship has changed. When we go out now, it's assumed that I'll pick up the tab or leave a substantial tip. Any ideas ,other than shunning my relatives? Thanks, WD

Why not just leave a nice tip if the service is good? The waiter or wairess depends on tips to earn a living. Why not leave your family's expectations out of the equation?

Don't let the envy of anyone spoil your enjoyment of your life. Their envy is a reflection on them, not on you.

[cinghiale]

Picking up on some of biasion's reflections and adding a few of my own...

While biasion mentioned the difficulties and challenges of dealing with friends and peer groups (the "it must be nice" line makes me see red), you can escape from superficial friendships and vocationally-tied peer groups. It's tough with family, beacuse family is permanent.

I made the mistake of mentioning having reached a certain landmark in savings to one immediate family member a number of years ago. Though that "statistic" is never overtly mentioned, it is now assumed within our discussions and activities. I have no basis for commenting on or (heaven forbid!) criticizing someone else's actions or decisions because I have it "so easy." My financial success mutes me. Like WD4HJB, it is assumed that I will spring for dinner out. Otherwise, I come across as a greedy CEO-type.

The big question is: how often are you with your family? How often do you have shared activities with them where you may be put in the position of being the human ATM machine? If the answer is "seldom" or "yearly," I would take the path of least resistance. Pay the dinner bill. Be magnanimous. I build-in the "it must be nice factor" into my trips home. I'd rather spring for the meal than spoil the week's visit.

One other tip: if you follow the above advice, *never* mull over the added $600 you paid for the privilege of having saved, budgeted, invested, and hung around with the Bogleheads. Calculate the miniscule *percentage* of your savings that you just spent. Heck, its nothing more than a slight move on a normal market day.

Let success and your own sense of contentment and thankfulness be the order of the day. It may even slay the "it must be nice" dragon.

Hope there's a little bit of help in this perspective.

-- Cinghiale

[NYCPete]

Now family get together's invariably focus on me and why I don't "enjoy" my money. I try to tell them that I do enjoy my money, i.e. watching it grow over time.

I'll give one example where the relationship has changed. When we go out now, it's assumed that I'll pick up the tab or leave a substantial tip. Any ideas ,other than shunning my relatives? Thanks, WD

If I were in your position, I would never again say to them that you enjoy "watching your money grow over time." Money is only a tool, and a means to an end. If you are ever asked again why you don't enjoy your money, tell them that you enjoy any one of the many things that living below your means and saving can result: living a less stressful life because you have a financial foundation, not fearing getting laid off, being in control, never feeling deprived, etc. But along the way in saying those things it will be important to point out that getting to that point involved sacrifice. It wasn't like it was handed to you.

Saying one enjoys watching your money grow can come off sounding miserly, which I do not think you intend to come across as being. Tell them about why you live the way you do.

If that doesn't change the dynamic, heck you could even tell them that the financial goals you set for yourself 30 years ago did not include picking up the tab at restaurants for others!

Best,
Peter

[nisiprius]

Oh, just pay the darn tab graciously and enjoy feeling rich.

So they're taking advantage of you, so what? People take advantage of other people every day and the world doesn't come to an end.

If you keep doing it cheerfully maybe eventually someone else will ask at some point "whether it's my turn," in which case you can say "OK." Or maybe this won't happen.

If they ask you to do something substantive, like lend them money for a business proposition, or bail them out of a financial problem, that's the time to worry about what to do.

Families are what they are. It's astonishing how many members of how many families are estranged and don't even talk to each other. Bend over backwards to do whatever you can to maintain at least cool, civil relations. Even if you think they are a......s and they think that you are.

[jpsfranks]

So where does this take me? Well, I turned over circles of friends a lot. I was always a high achiever and always strove to do better, but judging from the way I look, you can't really tell... until you see where I live and talk to me. So this is what happened. Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me. There is nothing you can do save be a reactionary classist, and admit that you can only hang out with people of similar socioeconomic status. It just doesn't work, no matter how much you want to be "one of the simple people". You might be a pawn compared to some of these CEO's, but if you have one cent more than most people, a one year newer car, or anything that anyone else might possibly want but currently cannot have, you will be hated. It is that simple: it's human nature.

Wow, but this is a seriously messed up view of of the world in my humble opinion. Maybe it's that I'm still in my late 20s and haven't seen these dynamics develop yet, but I've got a circle of friends that goes back to middle school that is still really close. I have no idea the exact amounts of money they each pull in, but I'd guess the top earner makes about 10x the least, with myself squarely in the middle. But when we get together you'd think we were still in 8th grade. Similar with my college buddies. If you're constantly "outgrowing" your friends it should make you question whether you really had any.

[bob90245]

I wonder how other successful Bogleheads have dealt with the problem?

You can say that your portfolio took a substantial hit in this bear market. And you, like nearly everyone, are not nearly as successful as you once were.

[bearcub]

Interviewer once asked John Stockton former Utah Jazz hall of famer what he thought about people who put him down -- basically his answer was I can not control what somebody else thinks. Life is to short.
Thats kinda how I look at things. I focus my energies on family and friends who love me. I never get to envious of alot of folks because I really do not know whats going on inside them. IM NO dr. Phil.
Hey, what if you go to dinner with your family and act upset saying-- Oh sorry I must of left my wallet home.

[DSInvestor]

I think it goes both ways. I've seen some folks question their brothers and sisters about financing that computer, vacation, ATV or camper trailer rather than paying with cash. I found that those who do not live within their means can be defensive about these issues. In a way, over-spending is like an addiction which provides a short term high and long term misery. Those that are not addicts are concerned about those who are.

[biasion]

So where does this take me? Well, I turned over circles of friends a lot. I was always a high achiever and always strove to do better, but judging from the way I look, you can't really tell... until you see where I live and talk to me. So this is what happened. Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me. There is nothing you can do save be a reactionary classist, and admit that you can only hang out with people of similar socioeconomic status. It just doesn't work, no matter how much you want to be "one of the simple people". You might be a pawn compared to some of these CEO's, but if you have one cent more than most people, a one year newer car, or anything that anyone else might possibly want but currently cannot have, you will be hated. It is that simple: it's human nature.

Wow, but this is a seriously messed up view of of the world in my humble opinion. Maybe it's that I'm still in my late 20s and haven't seen these dynamics develop yet, but I've got a circle of friends that goes back to middle school that is still really close. I have no idea the exact amounts of money they each pull in, but I'd guess the top earner makes about 10x the least, with myself squarely in the middle. But when we get together you'd think we were still in 8th grade. Similar with my college buddies. If you're constantly "outgrowing" your friends it should make you question whether you really had any.

I am actually your age, perhaps a year or two older. I have a small handful of friends that I still trust: they are friends for life. I can count those types on the fingers of one hand.

I am a very, very deep person: I don't have a superficial bone in my body. I always was a hard worker, and never complained. But from very early on (and this is recent enough in your own memory to be able to relate), remember back to high school or college? Remember when you got your grades back and you innocently actually shared that you got a perfect score on your chemistry final exam? If people were actually happy for you and respected you more for it, you are either fortunate, or they were good at hiding how much they hated you. It's really that simple.

I don't go out of my way to act better, or to expect to hate people, but I have a lot of life experience in this field, particularly in my line of work. It no longer surpirses me just how much people can disappoint.

The biggest recommendation I might have to the OP is to keep up the humble facade, and never share your success to any new acquaintances, ever, unless you know for a fact that they more or less have the same amout of success in life. People are just that way. I don't know what it is, but it seems that you can be best of friends for a long time, and when all of a sudden you manage to earn, accomplish or obtain something that the others would like, but don't have, overnight you become the object of hate and envy. Look at the tabloids lambasting Bill Gates and other successfuly wealthy people. It's human nature: don't trust the monster.

For this reason, while I am a big car afficionado, and I can afford a really nice car, I have hesitated, and still hesitate to purchase anything expensive of reeking of any kind of success. I kind of like it when most people around me drive a "better" car than I do for that reason. Don't expect people to ever be nice to you: they will only act like they like you while you have something to give them or are useful to them. And don't give them any ammunition to hate you.

Regarding family that you just can't stop hanging out with, I really don't know how to handle it. Most of my folks live so far away they hardly know what I do except for first degree relatives all of which are more or less doing the same things in life. But it is hard to get away from them if they are toxically envious like that.

[SP-diceman]

There are two ways to go:

Tell them you took their advice (to "enjoy" your money) and
you lost a large portion of it in a casino.

Relaxed that you are now "one of them" they may pick up the
tab next time and not feel insecure.
(we never mind spending when we can have pity on someone)
--------------------------------------------

The other way is to "play the role".
Next time your asked to dinner say your having
diner with the Trumps and cant make it.


Seriously, the only way to change this is to change
human nature. It aint gonna happen.


Thanks
SP-diceman

[SpringMan]

I don't find this socioeconomic problem that biasion describes to be an issue in my circle of family and friends. Everyone has their own set of issues, and have seen enough of life's mishaps, like disease, injury, mental or physical infirmity. Most folks in my circle know they don't live for ever and have been humbled by this so called "great equalizer". Admittedly those of them that hold no stocks or mutual funds do not have much sympathy when I tell them I lost half a million dollars in the market last year. I think it was Bob Dylan that said "if you ain't got nothing, you have got nothing to lose". That describes some of my siblings.

[bob90245]

I think it was Bob Dylan that said "if you ain't got nothing, you have got nothing to lose".

Him and Tim McGraw

[isleep]

Remember when you got your grades back and you innocently actually shared that you got a perfect score on your chemistry final exam? If people were actually happy for you and respected you more for it, you are either fortunate, or they were good at hiding how much they hated you. It's really that simple.

The school system was designed precisely to engender this kind of behavior, and carry it forward into adult life. You should read what John Gatto has to say, as it is quite enlightening:
http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

More essays here:
http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html

And a free online version of his book:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

One of the topics he touches on is the lack of critical thinking skills being taught in today's schools, which most certainly has an impact on how people value and spend their money.

[swyck]

Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me. There is nothing you can do save be a reactionary classist, and admit that you can only hang out with people of similar socioeconomic status.

Did you look down on them for not being more driven, for not working harder, for not being more like you? Did you regularly recommend expensive restaurants or entertainment that would be beyond their means? Were you unwilling to hang out with them in the old dives or were those places now beneath you? Were you busy doing way more important things then they were interested in doing?

Was this all really one sided?

[jh]

...

[White Coat Investor]

Not seeing it. Maybe because I've gotten used to talking to those who are really "beneath me" (socioeconomically speaking) at work I don't have trouble relating to or hanging out with my working class friends. I even talk money with them. A few of them even come to me to talk money.

When we go out as a family, there is still an expectation that my dad will pay even though at least a couple of us have a higher income. I find it a point of pride to be able to spring for the check at times like these. That's part of the reason I live like I do, save like I do etc.

Giving money to charity helps you avoid becoming miserly. I highly recommend giving a certain percentage of your money away, no matter if you make $5K/year or $500K/year. It makes it much easier to keep money in its proper place in your life. And try to avoid confusing "success" with money. In my experience, they have little to do with each other.

[Kenkat]

Unfortunately, word leaked out...

Pandora is out of the box. You're stuck. While I don't have any specific advice for the current situation, I would offer a word of caution and it is this: don't make this mistake again. Don't tell anyone how rich or poor or successful or messed up you are without really really thinking about it. Quiet success has a lot of benefits. Let everyone else think they are richer and more successful than you. It makes them happy and you know the truth.

Best regards,
Ken

[Ron]

Luckily, I have no family to worry about (other than my wife/son); thank goodness for small favors ...

- Ron

[sandcrab]

WD,
I don't know what you should do, but I do know what I do. I lie. Lies of omission, white lies, everything BUT bald-faced lies. I work very hard to minimize the amount of information I give to family on matters of money.

I love them. I know how they think. I know they are not likely to change in this regard. So, I can either cause stress in those relationships by sharing information that they won't really understand, or I can tell the occasional white lie to keep the peace.

=Sam

[biasion]

Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me. There is nothing you can do save be a reactionary classist, and admit that you can only hang out with people of similar socioeconomic status.

Did you look down on them for not being more driven, for not working harder, for not being more like you? Did you regularly recommend expensive restaurants or entertainment that would be beyond their means? Were you unwilling to hang out with them in the old dives or were those places now beneath you? Were you busy doing way more important things then they were interested in doing?

Was this all really one sided?

No to all the above, but you bring up a good point: once you are privileged enough to enjoy certain things in life, it is hard to be able to relate to people who do not because their first reaction will be "it must be nice...." which then brings on the green monster. So it's not so much yourself, but how other people perceive it, and if you got what they can't have, they'll hate you. Then you find yourself having to bite your tongue. That doesn't mean that I view others with contempt. Sure I worked very, very hard in life, but a lot of it was luck. It could have just as easily been me as less successful, that I don't deny, but I certainly wasn't blowing my paycheck in clubs on drugs and alcohol like some certain people who would lament being broke would.

I didn't look down on anyone at all, but it just boils down to life being too short and hard for extra aggravation. Do you really want to put up with all the snide comments they make about the nice things in your life or have to bite your tongue and feel like you can't share things, embarassed of your own success? Yes, that too is very ephemeral, it will all go to naught and I have no delusions of grandeur, but I think it affects the way other people treat you. And then there are always those former classmates who now sell real estate or are stock brokers or who need 10,000 dollars for XYZ who tell you how good looking you are and how well accomplished you are... that's when you run for your life!

[freebeer]

I haven't experienced biasion's pervasive hostility. Maybe it's just a Silicon Valley thing but there are friends who have literally 100x more than others (Microsoft, Google, etc.). No big deal - and in many ways real prestige in the technology world accrues more to recognized merit than to right-place-at-the-right-time luck.

But biasion's own words may help explain his story: "my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me.". Hm. Did, just maybe, some of that "I'm outgrowing you" attitude come first, and then help cause the straightened friendships?

Perhaps there's even a lesson in this for the OP...

[SuzyC]

>><i>The biggest recommendation I might have to the OP is to keep up the humble facade, and never share your success to any new acquaintances, ever, unless you know for a fact that they more or less have the same amout of success in life. People are just that way. I don't know what it is, but it seems that you can be best of friends for a long time, and when all of a sudden you manage to earn, accomplish or obtain something that the others would like, but don't have, overnight you become the object of hate and envy. Look at the tabloids lambasting Bill Gates and other successfuly wealthy people. It's human nature: don't trust the monster. </i><<

It stands to reason that people who are drawn to others because of things like salary amount, position, or test scores are more likely to express "hate and envy" down the line. Avoiding such topics may have more to do with basing friendships on other, deeper connections, than with maintaining a "humble facade," plus it just seems like good manners not to talk money (or even grades) in such detail. Unless you're on an internet discussion board of course.

[livesoft]

To put in an alternate point of view: I come from a large family. Some of my siblings don't have jobs. Some are much wealthier than me. When we get together we talk about money. We learn from each other. Our individual decisions have lead us to where we are. As far as I can tell, no one envies any of the others. Everyone is generous to a fault and no one sponges off the others. We move easily from the world of just barely getting by on social security disability eating beans and rice over to the world of opulent vacations at the Four Seasons in Hawaii.

We all respect each other.

[VictoriaF]

I have several observations on the topic of envy.

1. People are more likely to be envious of those they can associate with than of those who belong to different circles. Thus, envy of a coworker's promotion could be stronger than of the CEO's bonus. And don't some economists define misery as making less money than your wife's sister's husband

2. Most people have no envy or such mild envy that it is practically unnoticeable. However, there are some cases of pathological envy. Those who never encountered it tend to dismiss it. Those who encountered strong envy, and particularly if they suffered in some way, become very cautious. And thus, opinions expressed here may be partially based on chance.

3. It is always better to err on the side of caution, i.e., not to disclose one's financial or other successes. But we all are human, and sometimes the need to show our achievements is stronger than common sense. It is easier to do so in the circle of one's peers, and in this sense, biasion may be right in his selection of friends.

Victoria

[mathwhiz]

You know what? This is why I was told never to talk about my personal finances or salary with anyone.

And when asked directly?

Lie.

To everyone but those who need to know. And the only person that needs to know is probably your spouse because she will have to sign your tax return. Other than that, it should be a family secret.

My father was extremely well off but you'd never have known it based on his career, friends, interests, or the "things" he owned. He always told me not to flaunt your wealth and people who ask about it are nosy people and they don't deserve any truthful responses.

It's really easy to lie. You bought a nice car or a nice house? Talk about all the debt you have buying them and how you can lose them all if you lose your job. "Things" are by no means an accurate reflection of someone's wealth.

Nobody has to know you paid for your house and cars in cash and have 7 figures in the bank....that's your secret.

[DiscoBunny1979]

I haven't experienced biasion's pervasive hostility. Maybe it's just a Silicon Valley thing but there are friends who have literally 100x more than others (Microsoft, Google, etc.). No big deal - and in many ways real prestige in the technology world accrues more to recognized merit than to right-place-at-the-right-time luck.

But biasion's own words may help explain his story: "my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me.". Hm. Did, just maybe, some of that "I'm outgrowing you" attitude come first, and then help cause the straightened friendships?

Perhaps there's even a lesson in this for the OP...

----------------------------

Oh, yes ... What I call the Silicon Valley Syndrome. Some of my family still lives there, but they didn't participate in getting those great stock options. . .they just worked hard and now are retired on small Pensions and their SS. But they suffer from "if I can't keep up with Jones' at least I can feel like I do." What does that mean? They want to continue living in the Bay Area because even if they don't have millions, they still can visit their ex co-workers that do!

This kind of thought process continues as I recently learned that the reason one family member has a "my other car is a Mercedes" plaque surrounding the license plate is because she use to car pool with a co-worker that had a Mercedes. This family member loves to be driven in a Mercedes, enjoys going to places where there are Mercedes outside of the stores or restuarants, but insists that she doesn't want one for herself. I guess if I win the lottery, I shouldn't rush out and buy her one - unless I also buy lifetime insurance and about 10 years of repair bills covered.....

That aside. . .I do experience the divergence from some family members that want to live on the 'cheap' at my expense. One family member for instance on a last visit when we went to a restaurant where you order your meal at a counter, when asked that she order first insisted on waiting until the end to order - so that essentially the first person that ordered (me) would pick up the bill for the the whole crew.

[PreserveCapital]

Unfortunately, word leaked out from my parents that Mr. Average, who has always lived below his means, i.e., never had a nice car, bought an average house, saved and invested for 30 years, happily married to spouse #1, is well off by family standards. This has changed the way other family members perceive me and I don't like it.

I wonder how other successful Bogleheads have dealt with the problem? Now family get together's invariably focus on me and why I don't "enjoy" my money. I try to tell them that I do enjoy my money, i.e. watching it grow over time.

I'll give one example where the relationship has changed. When we go out now, it's assumed that I'll pick up the tab or leave a substantial tip. Any ideas ,other than shunning my relatives? Thanks, WD

Well it's all a matter of perception. You're extremely blessed--financially but also personally, with both parents alive. And, you have a larger family circle as well.

[VictoriaF]

Oh, just pay the darn tab graciously and enjoy feeling rich.

So they're taking advantage of you, so what? People take advantage of other people every day and the world doesn't come to an end.

Most people resent being taken advantage of. There is a difference between offering to pay and being expected to pick up the tab.

If you keep doing it cheerfully maybe eventually someone else will ask at some point "whether it's my turn," in which case you can say "OK." Or maybe this won't happen.

This depends on the inter-personal dynamics.

If they ask you to do something substantive, like lend them money for a business proposition, or bail them out of a financial problem, that's the time to worry about what to do.

If the OP unflinchingly pays for meals and drinks, other requests are more likely to follow.

Families are what they are. It's astonishing how many members of how many families are estranged and don't even talk to each other. Bend over backwards to do whatever you can to maintain at least cool, civil relations. Even if you think they are a......s and they think that you are.

The question is whether an estranged family is worse than a dysfunctional family, and only the people involved can judge the level of dysfunction. For some people, their family is the source of their greatest strength; for others it is their strongest stressor.

Victoria

[steve88]

Despite my very young age, I know I have been chastised on this board for my exceedingly negative and cyincal views of human nature. However, without going into detail, I really do feel that I have a much better knowledge of just how evil, superficial, petty and useless most people can be.

You have pretty much summed up the story of my life. When I was in college, I had the reputation of literally being homeless. I would wear old clothes, old shoes, I drove an old rusty car. I just didn't care: looks didn't even occur to me as having to be important. LAter, when I became a physician, I didn't even have to clean up my act, I just started re-wearing the same old button down shirts from my catholic high school and ties.

So where does this take me? Well, I turned over circles of friends a lot. I was always a high achiever and always strove to do better, but judging from the way I look, you can't really tell... until you see where I live and talk to me. So this is what happened. Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me. There is nothing you can do save be a reactionary classist, and admit that you can only hang out with people of similar socioeconomic status. It just doesn't work, no matter how much you want to be "one of the simple people". You might be a pawn compared to some of these CEO's, but if you have one cent more than most people, a one year newer car, or anything that anyone else might possibly want but currently cannot have, you will be hated. It is that simple: it's human nature.

I have this friend who is fantastically wealthy, I mean like "Hampton's" kind of old world CT yankee type money. He is the perfect gentleman, and comes from a stupendously wealthy famly. They too are very simple, and you couldn't tell based on their 10 (or even 20 year old, in one case!) cars on how fantastically wealthy they are until you see all their boats, their properties, etc. So simple, so nice. Yet this friend always advised me that you have to hang out with people of your SES, because you will always get people to see your success and say "Oh.... it must be nice" when they finally catch on and start to hate you.

Initially, I thought he was a total reactionary. Then I lived my life. He was right.

The green monster is everywhere. If people will be toxic about your good habits, ignore them. They will only drag you down. You worked so hard and sacrificed so much, enjoy it with those who deserve your attention.

Wow biason you hit the nail on the head. I wish you more success and I hope you keep moving forward. I too feel the same wrath you describe but with neighbors. My family or most of them are wealthy so they don't care what I am doing. I for one is not the jealous type. We, our family just want to keep getting ahead. When my wifes family and friends , neighbors started the green with envy, I thought something was wrong with me. I even started going to church and consulting priest thinking I am the devil. I like talking to successful people. It stimulates my mind.

After reading your post I will now cut that and put it in my wallet. I lost a lot of money last year but I am okay.

[sscritic]

Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me.

The problem wasn't the envy, it was your attitude that you "outgrew" those friends. You changed, not your friends.

I live in a senior apartment complex. Some of us live in section 8 units on social security and get medicaid. Others pay full freight on pensions plus social security and have millions in our investment accounts. While I am closer to the latter group than the former, one of my friends in section 8 likes to take me to McDonald's for breakfast when he has buy-one get one-free coupons for egg mcmuffins. I pay for the two senior coffees. Last week he came back from the 99 cent store and gave me a large bag of peanuts. He goes to the local supermarket and buys a bag of cookies on closeout and leaves them out for all to eat. He has no envy. He is grateful for the free medical care he gets and that he can live in a nice apartment at reduced rates. I seriously believe that he is more generous than I am. We are friends because neither of us has outgrown the other.

[saurabhec]

I'll give one example where the relationship has changed. When we go out now, it's assumed that I'll pick up the tab or leave a substantial tip. Any ideas ,other than shunning my relatives? Thanks, WD

When something about the behavior of a friend or family member bothers you, the best (although often the hardest) thing to do is ask them about what is going on and discussing the topic in a genuine, heart-felt fashion. In my experience, money is one thing on which unfortunately a lot of minds cannot be changed. However, this way you have a chance of salvaging the relationships that matter to you. Make sure the other person knows you are important to them, and they understand your point of view, and you have examples of your generosity in other spheres. No guarantees, there is only a 50/50 chance this will work, but such is life unfortunately. In the end, you might have to learn to accept the flaws of someone who you otherwise care about.

[Dale_G]

My extended family consists of the "haves", the "doing OK" and the "have nots".

In my approximately 60 years since puberty, I haven't seen any evidence of envy, much less hate in either friends or family.

I happen to own a Mercedes and Porsche (you can get 8 bags of mulch in the Mercedes and only about 4 in the the Porsche, but the Porsche is much better in the rain - I think I really need a beater truck). If someone says, "nice car", I simply say, "Yeah, I like it". No one hates me any more than I would hate them for having a nice fishing reel or a treasured weed whacker that starts on the first pull.

The restaurant check? I suppose if I went out everyday with relatives or friends, picking up the check would grow tiresome after a while. But for the occasional meal, what is the problem. !0% of their liquid assets or 0.01% of mine. Where is the beef?

And college grades? Our grades were posted in the 50's, so there wasn't any discussion. I was always #2 to a guy who was either smarter or worked harder than me. I suspect he was smarter, cuz I worked my buns off. No envy, no hate, just respect.

Comment on grade inflation: The grade average for 10,000 students was 1.9 out of a possible 4!

All that said, I wouldn't ever mention numbers when dealing with either friends or family. If you "leak" numbers, it usually represents some kind of one-ups-man-ship.

Dale

[MrWinky]

If you think about money issues with friends and family a lot, it may be of interest to read Jeanne Fleming and Edward Schwarz's book Isn't it Their Turn to Pick Up the Check? It was certainly helpful for me...

[mall0c]

Despite my very young age, I know I have been chastised on this board for my exceedingly negative and cyincal views of human nature. However, without going into detail, I really do feel that I have a much better knowledge of just how evil, superficial, petty and useless most people can be.

You have pretty much summed up the story of my life. When I was in college, I had the reputation of literally being homeless. I would wear old clothes, old shoes, I drove an old rusty car. I just didn't care: looks didn't even occur to me as having to be important. LAter, when I became a physician, I didn't even have to clean up my act, I just started re-wearing the same old button down shirts from my catholic high school and ties.

So where does this take me? Well, I turned over circles of friends a lot. I was always a high achiever and always strove to do better, but judging from the way I look, you can't really tell... until you see where I live and talk to me. So this is what happened. Every few years, as my life progressed, my current circle of friends, whom I outgrew because I was on the way up socioeconomially, started to hate me and envy me. There is nothing you can do save be a reactionary classist, and admit that you can only hang out with people of similar socioeconomic status. It just doesn't work, no matter how much you want to be "one of the simple people". You might be a pawn compared to some of these CEO's, but if you have one cent more than most people, a one year newer car, or anything that anyone else might possibly want but currently cannot have, you will be hated. It is that simple: it's human nature.

I have this friend who is fantastically wealthy, I mean like "Hampton's" kind of old world CT yankee type money. He is the perfect gentleman, and comes from a stupendously wealthy famly. They too are very simple, and you couldn't tell based on their 10 (or even 20 year old, in one case!) cars on how fantastically wealthy they are until you see all their boats, their properties, etc. So simple, so nice. Yet this friend always advised me that you have to hang out with people of your SES, because you will always get people to see your success and say "Oh.... it must be nice" when they finally catch on and start to hate you.

Initially, I thought he was a total reactionary. Then I lived my life. He was right.

The green monster is everywhere. If people will be toxic about your good habits, ignore them. They will only drag you down. You worked so hard and sacrificed so much, enjoy it with those who deserve your attention.

Wow. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

[Index Fan]

Envy of those better off than the average person has pretty much been a common social phenomenon for thousands of years. Anthropologist Robert Redfield wrote a book called Peasant Society and Culture that discussed this. Essentially, the 'folk view' of economics is that money is a fixed quantity and if someone has more than others, the others think that those who have more money got it at the expense of others- this is why the average people have less money, because the well-off somehow took it from them. It is a cross-cultural phenomenon that has led to envy and even violence. Think of merchants who are targeted in riots, which has happened in many countries, particularly when the small-scale merchant class is of a different ethnic background (ethnic overseas Chinese, Korean shopkeepers etc.)

I think many of us can recall unpleasant memories involving family or friends and money. I remember my father's father remarrying after divorcing my fathers' mother. Our step-grandmother told us out of the blue that 'you're not getting his house, I am.' No one had ever said anything about this situation before. Talk about awkward. That was the end of that familial relationship.

Money and friends/family do not mix.

[JustDucky]

Thanks everybody for your very in depth and personal responses. I sure got an education that covered the economic, social hierarchy and family dynamics aspects of money awareness within families.

After reading all them at least twice, here's what I intend to do. From now on, I'm only going to restaurants that have drive-thru's. That should be a major hint. Then if we happen to venture into something more upscale, I'll mention the market hit I took and how my "stocks" are comfortably buried six feet under.

Thanks again,
WD

[retiredjg]

From now on, I'm only going to restaurants that have drive-thru's.

Well, that will certainly work since you can easily pay for only your own food if you are the first or last to order. Interesting that is what you came up with. I suppose the same technique would also work at the buffet type places even though they don't have drive-thru.

[HornedToad]

Thanks everybody for your very in depth and personal responses. I sure got an education that covered the economic, social hierarchy and family dynamics aspects of money awareness within families.

After reading all them at least twice, here's what I intend to do. From now on, I'm only going to restaurants that have drive-thru's. That should be a major hint. Then if we happen to venture into something more upscale, I'll mention the market hit I took and how my "stocks" are comfortably buried six feet under.

Thanks again,
WD

Honestly, I would try to actually talk to the family members first. A lot of misunderstandings can be handled with communication.

[SteveB3005]

jpsfranks writes

If you're constantly "outgrowing" your friends it should make you question whether you really had any.

This sums up my feelings on this nonsense of maintaining friends within your "socioeconomic status group". If you end up in this life with a handful of true friends, you are fortunate to have found that many.

I think people confuse "true friends" with "friendly acquaintances".

[Mister Moolah]

Wow, I feel like I can relate to a lot of comments made on here. I made the awful mistake of mentioning money and my investments at work about a year ago. I now know what I said was stupid and has caused me grief. This all just backs up what I found out. It's good to know I'm not alone. Fortunately, I plan on moving hundreds of miles away in less than 2 years, and I can start fresh and be sure to never mention money to anyone again except my fiance/future wife.

When I was at work, everyone talked about how they had no money, or the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That is all mostly everybody's own fault. They got "poorer" because they blew their paychecks on lotto tickets, eating out, cigarettes, or owning twice as many cars as people who lived in their houses. But there was one guy who NEVER said ANYTHING about money. He just kept quiet and said nothing. He is in a different position and I no longer work with him now, but I know now why he didn't talk. From little signs I picked up from talking to him over the year, and how he said nothing, I know he's got money. I'm not jealous, but I realize why he was so quiet. Opening your mouth about having money just causes problems, unless you truly know the person you're talking to is on the same level as you and has the same thoughts as you. I think this should have been part of chapter 1 in "The Bogleheads Guide to Investing" I'm just glad I can say I learned this lesson and understand why it happens at such a young age. I have many working years to go and now I can avoid these awkward situations in the future.

[Opponent Process]

jpsfranks writes

If you're constantly "outgrowing" your friends it should make you question whether you really had any.

This sums up my feelings on this nonsense of maintaining friends within your "socioeconomic status group". If you end up in this life with a handful of true friends, you are fortunate to have found that many.

I think people confuse "true friends" with "friendly acquaintances".

this sums up my feelings on this nonsense of having friends at all , but I am an introvert. my wife describes me as a "high-functioning autistic". but seriously, aren't all friendships and family relations just some form of conditional co-dependence? do you really need these ties if you already have sufficient self-esteem?

[silvergga]

So where does this take me? Well, I turned over circles of friends a lot. I was always a high achiever and always strove to do better,...

Have you ever considered that it could be your problem? That you could be too full of yourself? I am just saying that if it happens too often (changing friends), it might not be others problem.

[Unormal]

jpsfranks writes

If you're constantly "outgrowing" your friends it should make you question whether you really had any.

This sums up my feelings on this nonsense of maintaining friends within your "socioeconomic status group". If you end up in this life with a handful of true friends, you are fortunate to have found that many.

I think people confuse "true friends" with "friendly acquaintances".

this sums up my feelings on this nonsense of having friends at all , but I am an introvert. my wife describes me as a "high-functioning autistic". but seriously, aren't all friendships and family relations just some form of conditional co-dependence? do you really need these ties if you already have sufficient self-esteem?

If you think this, you've never had a real friend, in my opinion; but to each his own.

[mall0c]

jpsfranks writes

If you're constantly "outgrowing" your friends it should make you question whether you really had any.

This sums up my feelings on this nonsense of maintaining friends within your "socioeconomic status group". If you end up in this life with a handful of true friends, you are fortunate to have found that many.

I think people confuse "true friends" with "friendly acquaintances".

this sums up my feelings on this nonsense of having friends at all , but I am an introvert. my wife describes me as a "high-functioning autistic". but seriously, aren't all friendships and family relations just some form of conditional co-dependence? do you really need these ties if you already have sufficient self-esteem?

Uhhh, why are you married then?

[Opponent Process]

this sums up my feelings on this nonsense of having friends at all , but I am an introvert. my wife describes me as a "high-functioning autistic". but seriously, aren't all friendships and family relations just some form of conditional co-dependence? do you really need these ties if you already have sufficient self-esteem?

Uhhh, why are you married then?[/quote]

insufficient self-esteem.