Whole House Surge Protector

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
sport
Posts: 12084
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:26 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Whole House Surge Protector

Post by sport »

I am considering adding a whole house surge protector to my electrical panel. I would hire an electrician for this job. This device would add some protection for the various electronic devices in my home. Are there any reasons not to do this? If I have this done, are there different brands and which ones would be preferred?
gtd98765
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by gtd98765 »

I had an electrician add one to our panel when he was doing some other work about two years ago. Cost was $475 (VHCOL area). The surge protector apparently has to match the brand of electrical panel you have, so you may not have much choice. So far it has created no problems for me. Of course, I don't know if it has stopped anything big, although we have had a bad fall as far as city electrical outages so it might have gotten some business.
brianH
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:21 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by brianH »

There probably isn't much practical difference between the various brands and models. They list various kilo Amp surge ratings, but it probably doesn't matter much.

They are a good idea, and are now required by code. I installed the Square D HEPD80 in my panel, which runs about $90 for the part, and $20 for the breaker. Install costs would vary based on your area.
senex
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:38 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by senex »

Agree with brianH on the Square D. It seems to be highly regarded on forums. It is a big, beefy, confidence-inspiring box. You can buy it on Amazon.

The electrical part of installation is a couple minutes tops. The challenge is where to physically fit the box. I was lucky, with a main panel in an unfinished area, so I just plugged the Square D through a punchout on the bottom of the box.

Given my rule of thumb that labor is 1-3x material cost, the person who mentioned $475 seems about right for a HCOL area, esp if installer had to punch through drywall etc.
tampaite
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:29 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by tampaite »

sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:21 pm I am considering adding a whole house surge protector to my electrical panel. I would hire an electrician for this job. This device would add some protection for the various electronic devices in my home. Are there any reasons not to do this? If I have this done, are there different brands and which ones would be preferred?
Get the EATON CHSPT2ULTRA, we have had it for 2 years and solid so far. Only $99.
Topic Author
sport
Posts: 12084
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:26 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by sport »

What happens when it stops a surge? Can it be reset, is there a disposable part to replace, or does the entire unit have to be replaced?
gonefishing01
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:09 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by gonefishing01 »

We installed a Siemens FS140 recently. It has bright green blinky lights and looks menacing enough. Electrician still recommended installing dedicated surge protection for HVAC and major electronics/appliances. But for a couple hundred bucks the whole home device is added insurance. Too many electronics these days to take chances.
User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:21 am
Contact:

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by indexfundfan »

sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:23 pm What happens when it stops a surge? Can it be reset, is there a disposable part to replace, or does the entire unit have to be replaced?
The entire unit will have to be replaced. You will know it if the two LEDs do not light up.
My signature has been deleted.
killjoy2012
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by killjoy2012 »

sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:21 pm Are there any reasons not to do this?
No
sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:21 pm If I have this done, are there different brands and which ones would be preferred?
https://www.amazon.com/CHSPT2ULTRA-Ulti ... g-20&psc=1

Note that having a whole house suppressor augments, not replaces, point of use surge suppressors.
sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:23 pm What happens when it stops a surge? Can it be reset, is there a disposable part to replace, or does the entire unit have to be replaced?
No, it's disposable/consumable. You'll eventually need to replace it.
User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 52105
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by nisiprius »

We had one installed about five years ago. We had an electrician do the whole job (including choosing and buying the device). It cost maybe $400. It is in a small metal box next to the breaker panel. It says it is an Intermatic PanelGuard. It has three LEDs on it. There are two green ones that say "Surge protection is functioning when green LEDs are ON." There is one that is not lit that says "Protection is diminished, but power is still supplied to the load if red LED is on. Replace immediately."

I have no idea if it works. We get do thunderstorms and occasionally lightning strikes in our neighborhood--one took down a small tree a few blocks away. In one memorable storm we saw a very bright blue flash, a stunning sharp "crack," and the next morning we noticed a darkened spot in our driveway which we didn't think had been there before. But, in the thirty or so years before we have the suppressor, we never had any damage to any electronic equipment from lightning, and in the years since we've had it installed, we've never had any damage and the green lights have stayed on and the red light has never lit.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
User avatar
Voltaire2.0
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:12 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by Voltaire2.0 »

killjoy2012 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:46 pm
sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:21 pm Are there any reasons not to do this?
No
sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:21 pm If I have this done, are there different brands and which ones would be preferred?
https://www.amazon.com/CHSPT2ULTRA-Ulti ... g-20&psc=1

Note that having a whole house suppressor augments, not replaces, point of use surge suppressors.
sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:23 pm What happens when it stops a surge? Can it be reset, is there a disposable part to replace, or does the entire unit have to be replaced?
No, it's disposable/consumable. You'll eventually need to replace it.
I've had an Intermatic for 15 years and it's standing by still ready to protect. The only reason to replace it is if it does its job and absorbs a surge. It does not "go stale" with age.
Topic Author
sport
Posts: 12084
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:26 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by sport »

When these devices do their job and need to be replaced, do you still have electricity in the house? If so, it's not like a fuse that interrupts the circuit when it blows out.
brianH
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:21 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by brianH »

sport wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:06 pm When these devices do their job and need to be replaced, do you still have electricity in the house? If so, it's not like a fuse that interrupts the circuit when it blows out.
Yes, your other circuits will work fine. They way these (and all surge protectors) work, is that they have components designed to short-circuit super high voltages and current from a surge directly to ground. This usually destroys the surge protection device, but hopefully its sacrifice saved your other electrical devices.

Though these devices don't have a set expiration date, there are frequently small surges that take their toll in a cumulative way.
meebers
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:20 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by meebers »

This is the one I self installed on my house. EATON CHSPT2ULTRA Ultimate Surge Protection 3rd Edition. This does require 2 ea 50 amp Breakers to be installed within the box. My previous one was recalled by Mfg for catching on fire all by itself. :shock: It was installed on my HVAC disconnect box at that time, got this one for the whole house since the original whole house surge had been on "duty" for 20 years. Been in operation now for about a year.
ErRyTour
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:56 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by ErRyTour »

I've been investigating one. I checked with my home insurance - they tell me there is a discount for having one installed. The discount would pay for the device itself in less than two years (not including labour to install it). Check with your insurance company, you may be eligible for a discount.
killjoy2012
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by killjoy2012 »

Voltaire2.0 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:50 pm
killjoy2012 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:46 pm
sport wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:23 pm What happens when it stops a surge? Can it be reset, is there a disposable part to replace, or does the entire unit have to be replaced?
No, it's disposable/consumable. You'll eventually need to replace it.
I've had an Intermatic for 15 years and it's standing by still ready to protect. The only reason to replace it is if it does its job and absorbs a surge. It does not "go stale" with age.
Once the metal oxide varistors absorb enough surge(s), they wear out / self destruct and will need to be replaced. MOVs are the core component in how a whole house surge protector works, and they slowly self-destruct in doing their job... either by 1 big surge or many smaller ones. There is no button to simply reset them like on circuit breaker, as the OP asked.

I never said or implied that they'd go stale. Your Intermatic will need to be replaced eventually.
Topic Author
sport
Posts: 12084
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:26 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by sport »

Since these devices, and the labor to install them, are somewhat expensive, I find it surprising that they do not make refit kits that would let you replace the failed or worn parts instead of having to replace the entire unit. It seems almost like replacing a printer because it ran out of ink. :annoyed
wilked
Posts: 2426
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:50 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by wilked »

gtd98765 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:57 pm I had an electrician add one to our panel when he was doing some other work about two years ago. Cost was $475 (VHCOL area). The surge protector apparently has to match the brand of electrical panel you have, so you may not have much choice. So far it has created no problems for me. Of course, I don't know if it has stopped anything big, although we have had a bad fall as far as city electrical outages so it might have gotten some business.
The bold is not accurate. I have an Eaton panel and a Square D surge protector.

I believe in them, was advised to get one from my father in law electrician who has seen the damage done with them and without them (in other words, he has seen one tripped by a bad storm where all else was protected, and he has seen circuits burned up by a bad storm as well)
wilked
Posts: 2426
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:50 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by wilked »

sport wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:00 am Since these devices, and the labor to install them, are somewhat expensive, I find it surprising that they do not make refit kits that would let you replace the failed or worn parts instead of having to replace the entire unit. It seems almost like replacing a printer because it ran out of ink. :annoyed
Photo of two surge protectors that did their job. You tell me if you want to replace the internals or buy a new one :D
Image

My guess is the cost to build something that can absorb all of that sudden energy and contain to a replaceable internal part is >>> cost of a new simple one
User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:21 am
Contact:

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by indexfundfan »

sport wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:00 am Since these devices, and the labor to install them, are somewhat expensive, I find it surprising that they do not make refit kits that would let you replace the failed or worn parts instead of having to replace the entire unit. It seems almost like replacing a printer because it ran out of ink. :annoyed
In the event of a huge power surge, the wires to the surge protector could also be damaged. So the entire device would still need to be replaced anyway.

Square D sells a surge breaker that plugs directly into the Square D panel that may make it easier for a homeowner to install. But it has a lower protection rating than a separate device and you still have to wire up the neutral wire.

https://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider ... 472&sr=8-4

EDIT: I just noticed that Square D also sells surge breakers for panels with plug-in neutral bus bars. In such a case, you would not need to wire up the neutral wire. It literally would be plug and play (if you have the correct panel).

https://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider ... g-20&psc=1
My signature has been deleted.
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by dratkinson »

Search past topics: https://www.google.com/search?q=whole+h ... rg%2Fforum


I installed a GE SPD (okay SPD from HD) in first panel (garage, shop). Cheap, easy homeowner install.

Does it work? I think so. Why? I'm on same utility transformer as nearest neighbor. Later thunderstorm damaged some of their electronics. I lost nothing.


After reading BH SPD topics and linked information articles, decided to add an Eton (better SPD from HD) in second* electrical panel (house). Can be installed by homeowner if comfortable working with panel wiring.

* Why? Linked articles advise defense in depth: utility SPD in meter base, homeowner SPD in first electrical panel, point of use SPDs for electronics.

My plan. I decided 2x panel-mounted SPDs (first and second panels) was good enough.
--I expect the cheaper, easier to replace GE SPD to fail first.
--I expect the Eaton SPD to continue to protect house until I can replace the GE SPD.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
seawolf21
Posts: 1590
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:33 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by seawolf21 »

gtd98765 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:57 pm I had an electrician add one to our panel when he was doing some other work about two years ago. Cost was $475 (VHCOL area). The surge protector apparently has to match the brand of electrical panel you have, so you may not have much choice. So far it has created no problems for me. Of course, I don't know if it has stopped anything big, although we have had a bad fall as far as city electrical outages so it might have gotten some business.
Siemens offer one that doesn’t not need to match the brand of the panel. It hooks up to a 20A brand specific breaker.

FirstSurge Pro 140kA Whole House Surge Protection Device

https://www.homedepot.com/p/206560230

Costco and Amazon carries it as well.

This can be DIY.

Looks like Eaton also offers a whole house SPD that is not brand specific; hook up to a brand specific two pole breaker.
Hockey10
Posts: 1108
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:20 pm
Location: Philadelphia suburbs

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by Hockey10 »

There have been several homes in our neighborhood that have lost major appliances due to electrical surges in two separate incidents over the years. We installed a whole house surge protector after the first incident and have not had any problems. Installing one of these devices is money well spent in my opinion.
brianH
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:21 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by brianH »

sport wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:00 am Since these devices, and the labor to install them, are somewhat expensive, I find it surprising that they do not make refit kits that would let you replace the failed or worn parts instead of having to replace the entire unit. It seems almost like replacing a printer because it ran out of ink. :annoyed
The device is not the real expense, since most are around $100 or less. In many HCOL areas, skilled tradesmen can charge crazy amounts of money for simple tasks.

Installing one is well within the realm of an intermediate DIYer, but like many things, the value you're paying for with a professional is someone that knows enough to do it safely.
sixty40
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:53 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by sixty40 »

Surge Protective Devices (SPD) typically have a max surge rating such as 80kA, 100kA, 120kA, etc. and also have a clamp voltage typically 400V, 800V, etc. You should get one that is UL listed, I think it is UL 1449. Normal small surges will be clamped to ground, each surge will affect the SPD's life. SPD's protect whatever is connected to the panel only to the extent to its maximum rating. If you buy a 80kA (kilo Amperes) device, and you have a surge 200 kA, it will most likely fail and the surge will go thru the panel. You cannot protect against all surges. I would get one with a minimum of 80 kA, and most likely in the 120 kA and above. If a lightning strikes close by, the SPD most likely will fail. Once the voltage is clamped to let's say 800V, you may also want a smaller individual SPD closer to the equipment you want to protect. The small SPD is meant to take a small surge but will further clamp the voltage down to an acceptable level by the equipment. This will provide 2 levels of protection and is probably what you would want for something that you prize.

If you can get one that has some type of indication or counter that will show it is at it's end of life or no longer operational, that would help, otherwise you do not know if it is working or not. Typically SPD's are disposable, you can get ones that you can replace parts but they are more expensive. Ones from major manufacturer's such as Square-D, Eaton, etc. will work fine.

Hope this helps.
Topic Author
sport
Posts: 12084
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:26 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by sport »

brianH wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:35 pm
sport wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:00 am Since these devices, and the labor to install them, are somewhat expensive, I find it surprising that they do not make refit kits that would let you replace the failed or worn parts instead of having to replace the entire unit. It seems almost like replacing a printer because it ran out of ink. :annoyed
The device is not the real expense, since most are around $100 or less. In many HCOL areas, skilled tradesmen can charge crazy amounts of money for simple tasks.

Installing one is well within the realm of an intermediate DIYer, but like many things, the value you're paying for with a professional is someone that knows enough to do it safely.
I think I am an intermediate DIYer, but I will steer clear of anything in the electrical panel. I know enough to know what I don't know. I would think my locality would require a permit for such electrical work. That would also add to the cost.
White Oak
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:50 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by White Oak »

I had one installed from Intermatic. It has user-replaceable modules so that you (or an electrician) don't have to reinstall the entire device in the event that it does absorb a surge.

https://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG224 ... g-20&psc=1
tibbitts
Posts: 23589
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by tibbitts »

I know this is a somewhat old thread but my surge protector has failed, so I thought I see if there were any other thoughts on user-replaceable units. Not user-replaceable for the initial installation - I don't even want to remove my dead (per the LED) unit myself because I'm not sure I'm supposed to remove the electric meter, and these days with the constant communication meters have with the utility company, I don't want to trigger an alarm. The surge protector is wired to the output (house side) of the meter, and I wouldn't want to touch that while the meter was in place, since I don't know how to cut off power to the meter itself without removing it. Anyway I just want to be able to replace the normally-expendable components in the future without calling an electrician (again.)
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by dratkinson »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:25 pm I know this is a somewhat old thread but my surge protector has failed, so I thought I see if there were any other thoughts on user-replaceable units. Not user-replaceable for the initial installation - I don't even want to remove my dead (per the LED) unit myself because I'm not sure I'm supposed to remove the electric meter, and these days with the constant communication meters have with the utility company, I don't want to trigger an alarm. The surge protector is wired to the output (house side) of the meter, and I wouldn't want to touch that while the meter was in place, since I don't know how to cut off power to the meter itself without removing it. Anyway I just want to be able to replace the normally-expendable components in the future without calling an electrician (again.)
My faulty memory recalls there were 3 types of SPDs (surge protection devices).
--Type 1: installed inside the box housing the electric meter---coordination with utility and licensed electrician required to install/replace.
--Type 2: installed in homeowner's first electric distribution panel, downstream of dedicated circuit breaker---making it easier to install/replace.
--Type 3: installed in a power strip---making it easy to install/replace.

If you have a type 1 device (installed inside electric meter box) that has failed, want to replace its function, at lower cost, could:
--Abandon type 1 SPD in-place.
--Install a type 2 SPD in the first electric panel downstream from the electric meter.
--Install type 3 SPDs to protect groups of electronics (refrigerator, TV, computer/router,...). Optional---belt and suspenders.

Recall Eaton unit was recommended and was relatively easy for homeowner to install, so also easy to replace. You'll also need to buy a circuit breaker (50a/240v, to fit your CB panel, cheap) to install Eaton unit.

See: https://www.amazon.com/CHSPT2ULTRA-Ulti ... ads.org-20

Moderators. I don't know how to add the Bogleheads' reference tag to above Amazon link so forum get credit if you buy from Amazon. Would appreciate it if someone would fix it and tell me how to do it.

Thanks, LadyGeek. I'll try to remember that: "/?tag=" at the end, "&tag=" in the middle.
Last edited by dratkinson on Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95466
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by LadyGeek »

dratkinson wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:44 pm Moderators. I don't know how to add the Bogleheads' reference tag to above Amazon link so forum get credit if you buy from Amazon. Would appreciate it if someone would fix it and tell me how to do it.
Sure. Take a look at the Amazon link in the menu at the top of this forum. It looks like this:

Code: Select all

https://www.amazon.com/s/?search-alias=aps&tag=bogleheads.org-20&field-keywords=Bogleheads
You have to know how the link parameters work. The key parameter is "tag=bogleheads.org-20". If the link ends in a slash '/', then put a question mark at the end. For your link it's:

Code: Select all

https://www.amazon.com/CHSPT2ULTRA-Ultimate-Protection-Length-Height/dp/B01AQAKRSS/?tag=bogleheads.org-20
https://www.amazon.com/CHSPT2ULTRA-Ulti ... ads.org-20

If the "tag=bogleheads.org-20" is mixed in with a bunch of other parameters, use an ampersand '&'. This is the form used for the link in the forum's header menu.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
sandan
Posts: 629
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by sandan »

I've heard that for data centers to be protected from a lightning strike, they literally have a razor cut the cord. I think the moral of the story is that lightning rods shouldn't be overlooked if neighbors are being struck.
Ron
Posts: 6972
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:46 pm
Location: Allentown–Bethlehem–Easton, PA-NJ Metropolitan Statistical Area

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by Ron »

Although this is an old thread, I thought I would add my own $.02 since I just went through an electrical "glitch" two weeks ago.

I had a situation on a Thursday afternoon where both my desktop and printer hung up - had to be recycled. They are on two different power/surge protectors but on the same room circuit. Didn't think much about it until Friday morning when I went to the kitchen and found water on the floor in front of the fridge.

The fridge interior lights were on, but it lost cooling. Being sure I could find a solution via U Tube, I found that simply resetting the thaw cycle electro-mechanical box would get it going again.

Rolled the fridge forward, took off the back grill, and peeked inside. I could not find a box like was shown on U Tube. Proceeded to call the service company (who had been here before for a warranty call on the same fridge). Luckily, they said they had somebody in the area and could come out within a couple of hours.

I left the grill off and plugged it in to have it ready for the service person. As soon as I plugged it in, the compressor kicked in (of course :annoyed ). I let the service call remain since I wanted to find out if there was really a problem, especially with the weekend about to start and no possibility to get a service person over that time.

When the service person arrived I told him of my investigation and my failure to find the defrost switch, he just laughed. On the model we have, there is no switch; it's all handled by the electronics. Apparently this was a holdover from the electrical glitch that occurred the previous afternoon and by unplugging the unit for an hour or so just reset the device.

Not being able to definitely relate it to a power flux (none of our clocks were affected, which usually happens with only a moment's electric glitch), I had no idea what happened. However, I did remember this old thread and I re-read it.

To try to avoid future interruptions, I had an electrician install https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C ... UTF8&psc=1 on our service panel, while also purchasing https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N7 ... UTF8&psc=1 on the fridge outlet supply (I also installed one in our basement dehumidifier, since it also has a compressor).

When we restart our travels early next year (already booked an Amsterdam trip to see the spring flowers), I would hate to return after a few weeks abroad to find our fridge with rotten food in it 🥴 ...

FWIW,

- Ron
cadamsBogle
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:39 pm
Location: Dexter MI

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by cadamsBogle »

Looks like a useful and applicable discussion. I live in a newly constructed home in Dexter MI. Occupied the house in July 2018. We've had two lightning related electrical surges in 2 years that took garage door openers, TV's, can lights, GFCI outlets..... After the first surge, we installed whole home surge protectors on our two electrical panels (geothermal and residential power). They were HEPD80's by square D. Following the second surge event, I was convinced they failed to do their job. To my surprise, both units were still lit up green indicating they were still working. This led me to look for other culprits that allowed electrical energy into the household circuit not protected by the panel HEPD80's. What I believe occurred is that the lightning induced surge came in through my UNGROUNDED DirecTV dish. I say this for multiple reason: 1) Both DirecTV receivers needed to be replaced, 2) Our adjacent satellite internet providers dish which is 6 feet away from the DirecTV dish continued to provide service following the lightning event and is grounded in multiple ways, and 3) at least two other nearby DirecTV installations I've been able to look at (and had no issues during the recent lighning storm) are properly grounded. The satellite internet providers dish is mounted on a metal pole driven two feet into the ground and the RG6 cable ground is bonded firmly to the post. This system is additionally grounded at the wall receptacle by a separate wire from the power supply to the receptacle faceplate. The DirecTV antenna in contrast is mounted on the wooden support post of my deck, has the ground wire of the RG6 cut near the dish and dangling in space. Furthermore, when the signal cable reaches the splitter, the ground wire is again cut and bonded to the splitter WHICH IS MOUNTED ON A WOODEN FLOOR JOIST. No grounding. Lastly, until this system was repaired again today, only a two prong plug was being used on the power supply.

The only other possibilities I could think of that might allow electrical energy into the house were the double walled metallic fireplace flue rising out of our roof or the wellhead. The fireplace flue is not connected to anything associated with the electrical system and the well pump is 50 feet underground with a 4 foot long stainless steel casing 50 feet down.

I feel like the most likely culprit, given the damage pattern, and the survivability of the nearby satellite internet providers system, plus the continued operation of the HEPD80 surge suppressors, is the UNGROUNDED DirecTV antenna and signal cable. Interested in hearing others thoughts.
HomeStretch
Posts: 11335
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:06 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by HomeStretch »

cadamsBogle wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:18 pm …Interested in hearing others thoughts.
Agree that a house can be impacted by an electrical surge that does not come through the breaker panel with a whole house surge protection. If your DirectTV dish needs to be grounded but isn’t, consider getting it done.

Despite having an electrical panel with a whole house surge protector and grounded lightening rods on our house roof, we experienced an electrical surge from a lightening strike. It traveled through our (ungrounded) irrigation system’s valves in the lawn, blew the garage irrigation controller panel open/askew and then traveled to the controller’s electrical outlet (blackened it). Luckily, no fire in the surrounding drywall and no further damage once the surge reached the whole house surge protector.
tibbitts
Posts: 23589
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by tibbitts »

dratkinson wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:44 pm If you have a type 1 device (installed inside electric meter box) that has failed, want to replace its function, at lower cost, could:
--Abandon type 1 SPD in-place.
What partly motivated me to post when I did what that depending on the outcome of an insurance claim (ongoing for a couple of months now with no end in sight), I might have an electrician available without having to pay for a separate visit. Question: is a licensed electrician allowed to remove the type 1 device without any ramifications from the utility (from the meter being off-line for a few minutes) or is some kind of permit or anything else required?
suemarkp
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:18 pm
Location: Somewhere in WA State

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by suemarkp »

Depends on the utility. They are going to want to know about cutting the meter seal. Some allow electricians to cut it and inform, others do not.

For the whole house suppressors not "doing their job during lightning strikes", there may not be other culprits. Certainly, an ungrounded directv cable is a problem. However, much of the wiring in your house is a voltage antenna when lightning strikes. The panel TVSS will suck it down from that side and hopefully prevent the surge from going onto other circuits. However, the load end of circuits in the wall can still have significant voltage because lightning voltage gradients can be huge. The next line of defense is point of use surge suppression such as suppressing power strips.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
rustymutt
Posts: 4001
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:03 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by rustymutt »

They are no better than the ground attached to it. So have electrician make certain your panel has correctly installed grounding system. Ground rod should not be right next to foundation. This reduces the area of circumference and also the ground plane. Common issues found out.
Other than that, I wish I had one.

I will add that the cable TV, phone, and other utilities should all tie into the same electrical system ground. When two of more grounds are used, it can create a dirty ground that acts like an antenna, and that's not what you want for ground.
Even educators need education. And some can be hard headed to the point of needing time out.
cadamsBogle
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:39 pm
Location: Dexter MI

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by cadamsBogle »

An Addendum to my earlier post>

So, DirecTV tech was here yesterday and did install a ground wire from the signal cable attachment at the receiver to the wall plate mounting screw. He also put a white tag on the signal cable that says nothing, just tags the wire. He started spouting something about the dish being mounted in a "zone of protection" which I called him on because I'm pretty certain my wooden deck does not provide any Faraday cage like protection qualities such that the lightning can't see it. Conversation quickly degraded from there.

Is the single ground from receiver to wallplate good enough or do I want to look at multiple ground locations like they have on my adjacent satellite internet providers dish (metal post in earth, RG6 grounded to it, RG6 grounded to basement beam, and lastly grounded again from power supply/receiver to wall plate)? Even as i ask that question, I cramping up thinking about introducing multiple ground points and ground loops. But, the satellite internet service survived. The dish is still not explicitly grounded outside the house. I can drive a ground rod into the earth and attach the dish RG6 cable ground, which is still just cut and wrapped around the mast. I can also run a ground cable from this location on the south side of my house to the foundation re-rod ground for the electrical panels on the north side. I can also put up a bonding plate up in the basement to connect grounds to.

I have since purchased and installed two wall mounted surge suppressors to run the garage door openers that got fried twice through. Also purchased a surge suppressor to run the RF signals (internet and TV) through before continuing on upstairs. Not yet installed. I have read that DirecTV doesn't normally use such surge suppression because of the 0.5dB signal loss due to the insertion of the surge suppressor.
User avatar
dratkinson
Posts: 6108
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: Centennial CO

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by dratkinson »

suemarkp wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:34 pm Depends on the utility. They are going to want to know about cutting the meter seal. Some allow electricians to cut it and inform, others do not.
...
If you're getting upgraded to a smart* electric meter, can wait until it's installed to have utility worker remove type 1 SPD.

* Then remember to run your clothes dryer, charge your EV,... over night, not during the day.
d.r.a., not dr.a. | I'm a novice investor; you are forewarned.
suemarkp
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:18 pm
Location: Somewhere in WA State

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by suemarkp »

cadamsBogle wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:53 pm So, DirecTV tech was here yesterday and did install a ground wire from the signal cable attachment at the receiver to the wall plate mounting screw. He also put a white tag on the signal cable that says nothing, just tags the wire. He started spouting something about the dish being mounted in a "zone of protection" which I called him on because I'm pretty certain my wooden deck does not provide any Faraday cage like protection qualities such that the lightning can't see it. Conversation quickly degraded from there.

Is the single ground from receiver to wallplate good enough or do I want to look at multiple ground locations like they have on my adjacent satellite internet providers dish (metal post in earth, RG6 grounded to it, RG6 grounded to basement beam, and lastly grounded again from power supply/receiver to wall plate)? Even as i ask that question, I cramping up thinking about introducing multiple ground points and ground loops. But, the satellite internet service survived. The dish is still not explicitly grounded outside the house. I can drive a ground rod into the earth and attach the dish RG6 cable ground, which is still just cut and wrapped around the mast. I can also run a ground cable from this location on the south side of my house to the foundation re-rod ground for the electrical panels on the north side. I can also put up a bonding plate up in the basement to connect grounds to.
DirecTV installers are awful in many areas. In fact, DirecTV is just plain awful. I cancelled them 5 years ago and they still call me almost every day offering a 50% discount...

Code requires that all antenna lead in cables (and CATV and phone wires) hit a "protector" nearest the point of entry into the building. This protector can be either inside or outside, but it is supposed to be very close to the building perimeter. Coax protectors are easy, as all you need to do is ground the shield. The feed-thru with ground lug is a $5 item. The more difficult thing is getting it connected to the proper place with the proper size wire.

Your steel beam is probably not a good ground if its a typical wood framed house. Separate rods in the earth are not allowed unless bonded back to the house ground electrode system with a #6 copper or larger wire. For electrical system grounding, multiple paths and redundancy are good, because there isn't normally supposed to be current on the premises grounding system (but there always is some). But there are only a few places where you are allowed to take these ground from.

If you don't have it, you should install an "intersystem bonding bridge", perhaps in an accessible place in your basement. Code requires these now and you can get them at home depot. It basically a ground bar and is what you connect the sat cable ground, the internet cable ground, the phone ground, CATV ground, or any other antenna grounds you have to. This bonding bridge should be connected with #6 copper to a rigid service conduit, the neutral bar in the main panel, or as a tap off your ground electrode conductor (use a split bolt connector for that).

The ground wire for the coax protector needs to be #10 copper or larger between it and the intersystem bonding bridge.

I'd not worry so much about the dish mast. If it gets struck, it may not actually help much. But you can put a ground clamp on it if you want and run that #10 to the same intersystem bonding bridge or just keep going with an unspliced #10 wire from the bonding bridge to the protector to the mast.

Grounding the receiver to the wall plate seems near useless (is that wall plate screw painted??). The surge shouldn't go that far if you have a properly installed protector at the building envelope. You could install point of use coax surge suppressors, but they may not have a very good ground. What is better are the power strip types that plug in and also have coax feedthru's that have surge protection. This gets you at least a #14 grounding wire that plugs into the circuit ground prong which is better than a faceplate screw attachment.

If you can access the national electric code, the relevant sections are 810.6, 810.7, 810.20, 810.21.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
cadamsBogle
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:39 pm
Location: Dexter MI

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by cadamsBogle »

suemarkp wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:27 pm
cadamsBogle wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:53 pm So, DirecTV tech was here yesterday and did install a ground wire from the signal cable attachment at the receiver to the wall plate mounting screw. He also put a white tag on the signal cable that says nothing, just tags the wire. He started spouting something about the dish being mounted in a "zone of protection" which I called him on because I'm pretty certain my wooden deck does not provide any Faraday cage like protection qualities such that the lightning can't see it. Conversation quickly degraded from there.

Is the single ground from receiver to wallplate good enough or do I want to look at multiple ground locations like they have on my adjacent satellite internet providers dish (metal post in earth, RG6 grounded to it, RG6 grounded to basement beam, and lastly grounded again from power supply/receiver to wall plate)? Even as i ask that question, I cramping up thinking about introducing multiple ground points and ground loops. But, the satellite internet service survived. The dish is still not explicitly grounded outside the house. I can drive a ground rod into the earth and attach the dish RG6 cable ground, which is still just cut and wrapped around the mast. I can also run a ground cable from this location on the south side of my house to the foundation re-rod ground for the electrical panels on the north side. I can also put up a bonding plate up in the basement to connect grounds to.
DirecTV installers are awful in many areas. In fact, DirecTV is just plain awful. I cancelled them 5 years ago and they still call me almost every day offering a 50% discount...

Code requires that all antenna lead in cables (and CATV and phone wires) hit a "protector" nearest the point of entry into the building. This protector can be either inside or outside, but it is supposed to be very close to the building perimeter. Coax protectors are easy, as all you need to do is ground the shield. The feed-thru with ground lug is a $5 item. The more difficult thing is getting it connected to the proper place with the proper size wire.

Your steel beam is probably not a good ground if its a typical wood framed house. Separate rods in the earth are not allowed unless bonded back to the house ground electrode system with a #6 copper or larger wire. For electrical system grounding, multiple paths and redundancy are good, because there isn't normally supposed to be current on the premises grounding system (but there always is some). But there are only a few places where you are allowed to take these ground from.

If you don't have it, you should install an "intersystem bonding bridge", perhaps in an accessible place in your basement. Code requires these now and you can get them at home depot. It basically a ground bar and is what you connect the sat cable ground, the internet cable ground, the phone ground, CATV ground, or any other antenna grounds you have to. This bonding bridge should be connected with #6 copper to a rigid service conduit, the neutral bar in the main panel, or as a tap off your ground electrode conductor (use a split bolt connector for that).

The ground wire for the coax protector needs to be #10 copper or larger between it and the intersystem bonding bridge.

I'd not worry so much about the dish mast. If it gets struck, it may not actually help much. But you can put a ground clamp on it if you want and run that #10 to the same intersystem bonding bridge or just keep going with an unspliced #10 wire from the bonding bridge to the protector to the mast.

Grounding the receiver to the wall plate seems near useless (is that wall plate screw painted??). The surge shouldn't go that far if you have a properly installed protector at the building envelope. You could install point of use coax surge suppressors, but they may not have a very good ground. What is better are the power strip types that plug in and also have coax feedthru's that have surge protection. This gets you at least a #14 grounding wire that plugs into the circuit ground prong which is better than a faceplate screw attachment.

If you can access the national electric code, the relevant sections are 810.6, 810.7, 810.20, 810.21.
"Code requires that all antenna lead in cables (and CATV and phone wires) hit a "protector" nearest the point of entry into the building."

This was my understanding as well after looking up some of the NEC code

I have purchased a surge suppressor having coax connections on it that I will be putting in line.

It is also my intention to put in at least two ground rods and tie them together where the panels are aready grounded to the foundation. I have to admit, I also questioned the quality of the ground provided by the beam bonding since it barely contacts any dirt and is not grounded to the re-rod in the foundation

I have also purchased and installed a number of point of use surge suppressors for other critical items that got blown (garage door openers, TV's, typically used laptop outlet....)

Thanks for you reply Suemarkp
tibbitts
Posts: 23589
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by tibbitts »

dratkinson wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:51 pm
suemarkp wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:34 pm Depends on the utility. They are going to want to know about cutting the meter seal. Some allow electricians to cut it and inform, others do not.
...
If you're getting upgraded to a smart* electric meter, can wait until it's installed to have utility worker remove type 1 SPD.

* Then remember to run your clothes dryer, charge your EV,... over night, not during the day.
I already had my smart meter replaced last month (due to physical damage), but didn't think ask the utility employee to remove the surge protector since it wasn't theirs. I guess I could have asked but it didn't seem like their responsibility. Some utilities do offer their own protectors and maintenance programs. I've had a smart meter for a very long time but it doesn't have any effect on the rate program you choose: you can choose a variety of rates including flat throughout the day and night.
suemarkp
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:18 pm
Location: Somewhere in WA State

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by suemarkp »

Here are links to a few PDF documents that show most of what is needed for antenna installation:
https://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/im ... sample.pdf
https://www.mikeholt.com/download.php?f ... 014NEC.pdf
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
hudson
Posts: 7098
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by hudson »

suemarkp wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:27 pm
Code requires that all antenna lead in cables (and CATV and phone wires) hit a "protector" nearest the point of entry into the building. This protector can be either inside or outside, but it is supposed to be very close to the building perimeter. Coax protectors are easy, as all you need to do is ground the shield. The feed-thru with ground lug is a $5 item. The more difficult thing is getting it connected to the proper place with the proper size wire.


If you don't have it, you should install an "intersystem bonding bridge", It's basically a ground bar and is what you connect the sat cable ground, the internet cable ground, the phone ground, CATV ground, or any other antenna grounds you have to. This bonding bridge should be connected with #6 copper to a rigid service conduit, the neutral bar in the main panel, or as a tap off your ground electrode conductor (use a split bolt connector for that).

The ground wire for the coax protector needs to be #10 copper or larger between it and the intersystem bonding bridge.
Thanks suemarkp!
Interesting stuff!
I looked at my setup...
There is an intersystem bonding bridge. http://www.aimedia.co/media/images/GB5-4.jpg (My main panel was replaced and inspected recently.)
A #6 copper (it's 3/16 inch in diameter) wire goes through it to two ground rods driven into the ground about 6 feet apart.
From the spectrum cable/TV/internet box there is a #12 wire (It's a hair over 1/16 inch in diameter) that goes to the bonding bridge.

Bottom Line: I'm OK except for the #12 wire that should be #10?
suemarkp
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:18 pm
Location: Somewhere in WA State

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by suemarkp »

Maybe. What is that #12 wire connected to on your equipment and how close is it to where the cables enter the house?

The modems and receiving eqiuipment dont normally connect to the intersystem bonding bridge. What does connect is every cable that originated from outside (probably coax cables). Normal practice is to install a splitter or feedthru for each coax and run a #10 copper wire from each of those to the bridge.

The intent is to bleed static or induced fields from lightning as soon as possible at the house perimeter. Doing it at the receiving equipment is a bit late in the chain. It cant hurt to ground the receiving equipment too, but that should be a redundancy and not the primary mechanism.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
hudson
Posts: 7098
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by hudson »

Image
suemarkp wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:34 pm Maybe. What is that #12 wire connected to on your equipment and how close is it to where the cables enter the house?

The modems and receiving eqiuipment dont normally connect to the intersystem bonding bridge. What does connect is every cable that originated from outside (probably coax cables). Normal practice is to install a splitter or feedthru for each coax and run a #10 copper wire from each of those to the bridge.

The intent is to bleed static or induced fields from lightning as soon as possible at the house perimeter. Doing it at the receiving equipment is a bit late in the chain. It cant hurt to ground the receiving equipment too, but that should be a redundancy and not the primary mechanism.
Thanks again suemarkp!
The #12 wire is not connected to the equipment. It runs from the Spectrum box located underneath the main service panel to the intersystem bonding bridge. The #12 wire is probably 12 inches long.

The Spectrum box has a cable coming off of the pole from the street. That wire is connected to the cable that eventually goes into the crawlspace and to the phones/TV/internet. The third wire is the 12" long #12 ground wire. The service panel was recently installed. The Spectrum box and cable is less than 6 months old. I stood beside the inspector when he checked everything. I talked me through what he was looking for. He mostly talked about the grounds. I nodded to him like I understood. :)

I'll try to add a picture in a few minutes. Here's a link: https://ibb.co/BrKXYzC
another link: https://ibb.co/Pjb0LjF

2 ground rods....maybe 6 feet apart....8 feet long maybe? https://ibb.co/bvTKF5T and https://ibb.co/kg7hxpj
suemarkp
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:18 pm
Location: Somewhere in WA State

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by suemarkp »

If the Spectrum box is where you say, that part sounds compliant. If this is part of a cable TV distribution system, then a different article applies (NEC 820). This is different than the rules for antenna based systems (NEC 810). The NEC 820 grounding rules are different - CATV cable must be grounded with a #14 or larger copper wire. Its length is limited to 20 feet.

So that part of your install sounds compliant.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
hudson
Posts: 7098
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by hudson »

suemarkp wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:50 pm If the Spectrum box is where you say, that part sounds compliant. If this is part of a cable TV distribution system, then a different article applies (NEC 820). This is different than the rules for antenna based systems (NEC 810). The NEC 820 grounding rules are different - CATV cable must be grounded with a #14 or larger copper wire. Its length is limited to 20 feet.

So that part of your install sounds compliant.
Many thanks!
I could have done Google searches for 100 years and I wouldn't have found your answer.
I believe that my setup is correct...because it is CATV and the cable is 12 gauge.
Luke Duke
Posts: 1330
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am
Location: Texas

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by Luke Duke »

I installed the Eaton based on this website: https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2014/ ... rotection/

It only took me ~20min to install it myself on my surface mounted breaker box outside.
seawolf21
Posts: 1590
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:33 am

Re: Whole House Surge Protector

Post by seawolf21 »

Just installed the Siemens FS140 from Costco. Took a bit of an effort as this is outside the panel and does not mount directly to a knockout unlike Easton CHSPT2ULTRA (which was a close 2nd choice).

As the FS140 does not allow for direct mount, you'll need to connect to panel knockout with a conduit. I was able to connect using a 3/4" liquid tight flex conduit. Home improvement stores should see it by the foot for under $2. As you want to minimize the distance to the breaker and bus bar as much as possible, I only need a 2" section of conduit. You'll also need 2 3/4" conduit connectors to connect one end of the conduit to the SPD and the other end to the panel.
Post Reply