"Snow Guard" for metal roof: A must or "Hogwash" or a "Hill of Beans"??

[Sandtrap]

Aloha Everyone's help with estimates for new gutters.
No snow in Hawaii but my home in Northern Arizona gets snow, up to 30".

Two steel buildings.
Stable/Barn "steel roof" building is 36 ft x 60 ft. Gutter guy needs to make 2 drip line/eave runs of 60 feet each, then downspouts for each.
Gutters: $898
Snow Guard: $976

New farm/shop "steel roof" building is 32 fit x 40 ft. Gutter guy needs to make 2 drip line/eave runs of 32 feet each, then downspouts for each.
Gutters: $875
Snow Guard: $608

Small workshop building 400 s.f. with a "tile roof". Gutter guy needs to make 2 drip line/eave runs of 20 feet each, then downspouts for each.
Gutters: $923
(this seems high and out of proportion because the building is so small. Although I did ask him to reinstall 4 downspouts on my house after the painters left)

Questions:

**The Gutter Guy says that I have to have "Snow Guards" on a metal roof to protect the gutters from damage from snow/ice. Is this true?
(not concerned with falling snow but am concerned about damage to the new gutters in winter)

I notice on the estimate that the "Snow Guards" are around the same price as the gutters for each building. Is this high?

**If there are "Snow Guards" and the snow is held back, then doesn't the snow build up and put too much weight on the roof?

Is this Gutter Guy giving me good advice about "Snow Guards" or is he selling me a "Hill of Beans"?


(disclaimer)
I'm a Hawaii Islander and grew up there so I don't know much about snow on roofs.

Thanks everyone for your help.
Mahalo
j

Some pics from online.
I don't know what a "Snow Guard is supposed to look like. Assume these from "googling" online.



Estimate from the Gutter Guy


30" total snowfall in 3 days a couple winters ago.

[bob60014]

Can't answer about the pricing but overall it's relatively cheap protection and good to have. Nothing worse than a sheet of ice or avalanche of snow falling on you or someone else!

[nordsteve]

Generally considered to be desirable. They keep large chunks of snow from sliding off the roof, ripping off the gutters or hurting someone.

[Mr. Rumples]

As an aside, do you need gutters? Even here in VA with over 40" of rain, gutters are not required for some homes depending on where they sit on the property and the soil type. This is codified in the state building code (R801.3 Roof Drainage). Most localities have literally mapped out every residential lot with the soil type.

[galawdawg]

The snow guards prevent an "avalanche" of accumulated snow from sliding off the roof which can damage gutters, landscaping and even injury people if it slides where someone is standing or walking. They basically retain the snow on the roof where it can gradually melt off. Metal roofs are much more prone to avalanches of snow than granular asphalt roofs. It is like driving with an accumulation of snow on the roof of the car. Eventually the whole block slides off!

Whether they are "needed" or not probably depends upon the typical accumulation you receive in a single storm or series of storms before melting takes place. If your 30" of snow is spread out over a few months with no more than a couple inches at a time that melts quickly, probably not "needed". If you get storms with large accumulations or it temperatures remain below freezing for long periods and snow accumulates between storms, then they may be a good idea.

[Sandtrap]

As an aside, do you need gutters? Even here in VA with over 40" of rain, gutters are not required for some homes depending on where they sit on the property and the soil type. This is codified in the state building code (R801.3 Roof Drainage). Most localities have literally mapped out every residential lot with the soil type.

We're a mile high in the Bradshaw Mountains. Summer monsoons are brutal. We need the gutters to protect the grounds and such. Will be running long drain lines away from the building pads.
j

[Sandtrap]

The snow guards prevent an "avalanche" of accumulated snow from sliding off the roof which can damage gutters, landscaping and even injury people if it slides where someone is standing or walking. They basically retain the snow on the roof where it can gradually melt off. Metal roofs are much more prone to avalanches of snow than granular asphalt roofs. It is like driving with an accumulation of snow on the roof of the car. Eventually the whole block slides off!

Whether they are "needed" or not probably depends upon the typical accumulation you receive in a single storm or series of storms before melting takes place. If your 30" of snow is spread out over a few months with no more than a couple inches at a time that melts quickly, probably not "needed". If you get storms with large accumulations or it temperatures remain below freezing for long periods and snow accumulates between storms, then they may be a good idea.

Year before last we got 30" of snow in 2 days.

Sometimes weeks under 20 degrees.

Then, some years, maybe a few inches at best all winter. Very unpredictable here.

The Gutter Guy was pretty emphatic about the Snow Guards protecting the gutters from damage.

j

[GuySmiley]

I would guess snow is not so much a problem as ice. I had a metal roof when I lived in TX, and during winter freezing rain would accumulate to 2" thick sheets, maybe 18" wide and many feet long that would just slide off once the weather warmed up. I didn't have gutters, but could easily see damage to a gutter or human below when a block of ice that heavy falls off.

[Mr. Rumples]

As an aside, do you need gutters? Even here in VA with over 40" of rain, gutters are not required for some homes depending on where they sit on the property and the soil type. This is codified in the state building code (R801.3 Roof Drainage). Most localities have literally mapped out every residential lot with the soil type.

We're a mile high in the Bradshaw Mountains. Summer monsoons are brutal. We need the gutters to protect the grounds and such. Will be running long drain lines away from the building pads.
j

Even though the county says I don't need gutters on my house, I feel strange without them. Thus, when they need replacement, I am going to go back to the method used in the 1700's: an exposed surface French drain made of brick and mortar under the edge of the roof, they will then follow the contour o the land to the county ditches. (Alas, the other colonial alternative is no longer an option, line the french drain with lead.)

[retiredjg]

**The Gutter Guy says that I have to have "Snow Guards" on a metal roof to protect the gutters from damage from snow/ice. Is this true?
(not concerned with falling snow but am concerned about damage to the new gutters in winter)

It certainly can be true. Whether it is true for you may be something of a regional thing.

I have a metal roof and got two gutters torn off a few years ago by a sheet of ice some days after a big snow. It was a mess, especially since it could not be fixed for quite awhile. I have "snow stops" now - on the portion of the metal roof that is steep. Around here, the less steep portions of the roof don't seem to cause that same problem.

When I moved in, the guy who inspected this house mentioned the lack of snow guards/snow stops. I didn't pay much attention since i was coming from a place with a lot more snow than here. But it is a different kind of snow....

I notice on the estimate that the "Snow Guards" are around the same price as the gutters for each building. Is this high?

**If there are "Snow Guards" and the snow is held back, then doesn't the snow build up and put too much weight on the roof?

Is this Gutter Guy giving me good advice about "Snow Guards" or is he selling me a "Hill of Beans"?

I think you should ask around where you live. And go take a look at other buildings which have a similar slope as your roof. Your snow situation is very different from mine. People where you live would be a better resource.

However, there is no question that steep metal roofs can result in a sliding sheet of snow/ice that is not only dangerous to your gutters, they can be dangerous to people/animals if a piece breaks off while standing under the gutter (which happens).

PS. It was my 5th winter here when the problem occurred. No problem the first 4 - every winter is different.

Some pics from online.

A neighbor has something like this on his steep metal roof. I've yet to see it in action. I noticed his was installed after the same snow that caused me a problem.

I've got "stops" rather than a guard if you want to google that. Have not had enough snow to really give it a test, but I think they will work well.

[GlacierRunner]

They are a necessity where I live. I have one spot where they are not 100% effective and the gutter is bent permanently.

The sound the snow and ice makes when it finally releases makes me glad that only 10% of the snow is coming down. That is more than enough shoveling to access the door. Can't imagine having the whole roof release at once.

Our roof is built to hold 50 inches per building code and we have not received that much in a storm in at least the last decade. 50 inches in a month yes, but not in a single storm.

Oops the 50 inches is wrong (repealed?). It's 70 lbs per square foot.

[galawdawg]

Are the buildings with the steel roofs heated? I suspect that the avalanche risk is higher on those metal roof buildings that are heated as the melting of the snow in contact with the warmer roof surface would likely result in a reduction in the bonding or friction between the snow and roof.

[Sandtrap]

Are the buildings with the steel roofs heated? I suspect that the avalanche risk is higher on those metal roof buildings that are heated as the melting of the snow in contact with the warmer roof surface would likely result in a reduction in the bonding or friction between the snow and roof.

Not heated.
Stable building.
Farm/shop.

5/12 pitch.
Sun can get pretty intense.

j

[Sandtrap]

They are a necessity where I live. I have one spot where they are not 100% effective and the gutter is bent permanently.

The sound the snow and ice makes when it finally releases makes me glad that only 10% of the snow is coming down. That is more than enough shoveling to access the door. Can't imagine having the whole roof release at once.

Our roof is built to hold 50 inches per building code and we have not received that much in a storm in at least the last decade. 50 inches in a month yes, but not in a single storm.

I think this is what I'm worried about.

Also, in the stall to paddock doors which are always open, the horses hang out with their heads out. They get pretty upset when snow falls on their heads.

j

[whodidntante]

I live in a place where the winter is measured in suicide rates. I have never heard of a snow guard. I have, however, heard of Snow Patrol. I've heard they are Chasing Cars.

I think we should be in favor of avalanches from our roofs. The alternative is weight on our roofs and total collapse on my critters.

[Sandtrap]

I live in a place where the winter is measured in suicide rates. I have never heard of a snow guard. I have, however, heard of Snow Patrol. I've heard they are Chasing Cars.

I think we should be in favor of avalanches from our roofs. The alternative is weight on our roofs and total collapse on my critters.

This is my concern.
Damage to the gutters is less of a consequence than 30" of snow buildup on a metal roof and then roof collapse on DW's horses.

You think so?
j

[galawdawg]

Also, in the stall to paddock doors which are always open, the horses hang out with their heads out. They get pretty upset when snow falls on their heads.

j

If you have horses that would be at risk from a snow avalanche off the metal roof, I'd recommend you get the snow guards. A horse could be seriously injured or worse if struck by a large block of falling ice and snow. Or alternatively, you could just have them installed over any areas where the horse could be struck by the fall, as wel as any entry and exit points for you and Mrs. Sandtrap.

If you are concerned about whether your metal roof can withstand the load of snow with snow guards, you may want to check with an engineer. This FEMA snow load safety guide may also be helpful: https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data ... ad_508.pdf

[retiredjg]

I don't think the purpose of the snow guards is to keep all the snow on the roof. The purpose is to keep if from coming off in a sheet.

What happens is the sheet slides down and covers the gutters and just hangs there in empty space until breaks off and falls. Notice the picture you posted - there is plenty of roof getting warm and letting water run into the gutters - they can do their job. The ice sheet prevents the gutter from doing its job.

The snow stops that I mentioned earlier are clearly designed to prevent sheeting. I think (have not seen it yet) the sheets will be coming off in smaller pieces, sort of like short ribbons instead of a sheet.

I think you may be experiencing a little false frugality on this issue. You or your wife or a groom or one of those horses getting injured by a sheet of ice would be costly in more ways than just money.

[HomeStretch]

Not in Arizona but I would get the snow guards to avoid injury.

We have steep pitched asphalt roofs (with ice barrier and proper ventilation). A snow/ice sheet slid down our snowy roof on a sunny day and a large chunk landed on spouse’s windshield while spouse was waiting below for the garage door to open to pull car in. Car was literally in the spot for 2-3 minutes. Luckily spouse (and car hood) were fine as the heavy chunk kind of embedded itself in the windshield and stuck there. We now rake the first several feet of the roof with a deep/heavy snow load. It seems to help.

[Sandtrap]

I don't think the purpose of the snow guards is to keep all the snow on the roof. The purpose is to keep if from coming off in a sheet.

What happens is the sheet slides down and covers the gutters and just hangs there in empty space until breaks off and falls. Notice the picture you posted - there is plenty of roof getting warm and letting water run into the gutters - they can do their job. The ice sheet prevents the gutter from doing its job.

The snow stops that I mentioned earlier are clearly designed to prevent sheeting. I think (have not seen it yet) the sheets will be coming off in smaller pieces, sort of like short ribbons instead of a sheet.

I think you may be experiencing a little false frugality on this issue. You or your wife or a groom or one of those horses getting injured by a sheet of ice would be costly in more ways than just money.

These are good points.
My concern was having too much buildup of snow weight on the roof and having a roof collapse, if there are Snow Guards.

The gutter guy's concern was damaging the gutters if there's no Snow Guard.

It seems that the allocation to potential gutter damage and sheeting injury from falling snow is far greater than the possibility of a roof collapse from snow load that might be contributed to having the Snow Guards.

So. . . . looks like Snow Guards are what's needed for metal roofs because of the nature of what they are, vs tile roof/etc.

Have another gutter guy estimator coming later this week. I'll get more input.

In Hawaii, it's falling coconuts, falling mangoes, falling 300 pound palm fronds, and hurricanes.
In Northern Arizona, . . . other things. . . .

Thanks for the help.

j

[Sandtrap]

Not in Arizona but I would get the snow guards to avoid injury.

We have steep pitched asphalt roofs (with ice barrier and proper ventilation). A snow/ice sheet slid down our snowy roof on a sunny day and a large chunk landed on spouse’s windshield while spouse was waiting below for the garage door to open to pull car in. Car was literally in the spot for 2-3 minutes. Luckily spouse (and car hood) were fine as the heavy chunk kind of embedded itself in the windshield and stuck there. We now rake the first several feet of the roof with a deep/heavy snow load. It seems to help.

Good points.
I was worried about gutter or roof damage.

From the injury standpoint, I guess it's a "no brainer".
mahalo,
j

[Normchad]

People die from snow and ice sliding off of roofs. https://www.caledonianrecord.com/news/n ... 5214a.html

I would put them on, even if I was not getting gutters.

The price kinda seems right to me. The job is similar. Get up on a ladder, and attach metal to the length of the building.

There are more decorative, and probably better performing styles as well.

Here is a video that I did not watch, but it sounds like it would be useful. https://s-5.com/videos/5-reasons-why-yo ... etal-roof/

[Dontridetheindexdown]

We have several steel roofs, no snow guards, no gutters.

We just let the snow and ice slide off.

Yes, if you stand under the edges on a sunny day you could be hit with sheets of ice.

On an agricultural property, there are many more dangers than ice sliding off a roof.

[Sandtrap]

We have several steel roofs, no snow guards, no gutters.

We just let the snow and ice slide off.

Yes, if you stand under the edges on a sunny day you could be hit with sheets of ice.

On an agricultural property, there are many more dangers than ice sliding off a roof.

Yes
Ag property. Low roof.
8 years and no gutters or snow guards on the stable building.
We have a new building going up and getting gutters so the thinking was to do the stables too.
j

[TheGreyingDuke]

Almost 50 years north of 43 degrees north, mostly with metal roofs, always with gutters, never heard of Snow Guards.

[BolderBoy]

Bought my house in August. It came with no snowguards but had newish-looking gutters that I didn't ask about. Roof is metal. The following March we got a 21" snowfall. When the sun came out and sufficiently heated up the snow/roof, the snow came off in a sheet and tore all my gutters off.

New gutters with snow guards installed shortly after that and in the 18 years since, no more gutter issues despite multiple snowfalls up to 36" accumulation.

[Tubes]

I don't think the purpose of the snow guards is to keep all the snow on the roof. The purpose is to keep if from coming off in a sheet.

Right. The ones I see here are there to disrupt. They shred the sheet if it slides. These are pretty affordable compared to the long bars I see in the OP's quote. But perhaps the other system is more foolproof.

[Sandtrap]

I don't think the purpose of the snow guards is to keep all the snow on the roof. The purpose is to keep if from coming off in a sheet.

Right. The ones I see here are there to disrupt. They shred the sheet if it slides. These are pretty affordable compared to the long bars I see in the OP's quote. But perhaps the other system is more foolproof.

Great points!
Now I'm learning and understanding what's the what of these "Snow Guard" things.
thanks
j

[retiredjg]

This is the kind I have. I suspect they will work. We'll see.

[Sandtrap]

Bought my house in August. It came with no snowguards but had newish-looking gutters that I didn't ask about. Roof is metal. The following March we got a 21" snowfall. When the sun came out and sufficiently heated up the snow/roof, the snow came off in a sheet and tore all my gutters off.

New gutters with snow guards installed shortly after that and in the 18 years since, no more gutter issues despite multiple snowfalls up to 36" accumulation.

This is exactly what I needed to know!

Thanks!
j

[lthenderson]

Is this Gutter Guy giving me good advice about "Snow Guards" or is he selling me a "Hill of Beans"?

I think like many things, the answer is that it depends on a couple of factors. I have about six metal roofed sheds of various sizes but only one of them has gutters and it doesn't have gutter guards. The original gutters installed back in 1983 are still intact and functional and never fallen off despite decades of snow. However, the pitch of the roof is fairly shallow so it doesn't tend to slough off snow in sheets even when the sun is out and it warms up quickly. Some of our other steeper pitched metal roofs without gutters will though. So there is definitely a roof pitch component to the equation. The other factor is that the gutters on the one are installed slightly below the slope line of the roof if it were to be extended out to the far gutter edge. So anything that sloughs off would pass harmlessly over the gutter. The drawback to this is when in a very heavy downpour, the momentum of the volume of water can carry it over the gutter edge as well.

The price of the snowguard which comprises of some powder coated metal and screws seems extremely high priced compared to the gutter prices. Are these standing seam metal roofs where it might require brackets too? They also are made from anodized aluminum but are generally thin enough you can't use them as foot holds when up on the roof doing maintenance. I suppose one could get copper ones too which might explain the cost.

[btenny]

Yes you need some sort of snow interrupter on steel roofs to stop sliding snow from coming off in big bunches like a avalanche. Yes the Flagstaff area of Arizona sometimes gets a lot of snow in some winters and not much in other winters. Where and what and how you install these interrupters is debatable.

Here is an example of what bad things can happen without interrupters. The snow slid off the Kirkwood condo roof in a big sheet and killed a SF woman and her son. They were just walking home. The locals searched for hours before finding them. .

https://www.google.com/search?q=favalan ... e&ie=UTF-8


Here is a good article on the issue.
https://trasnowandsun.com/snow-guards-t ... ible-code/

[Ron]

Our last home, built in 1950 had a slate roof along with "snow birds" to keep the snow from sliding off in one huge piece, damaging both the gutters and the foundation plantings below.

Here's a link to the product as shown for a metal roof.

https://www.alpharain.com/snow-birds-for-metal-roofs/

In our case, we also needed the snow birds to reduce damage to the slate. Since it's a natural material and does spall naturally, it adds to the reduction of material loss over its lifetime which could be over 100 years.

- Ron

[Tubes]

So the collective agrees you need some sort of snow stop/guard. The style is debatable.

I think a lot of us have raised our eyebrows at the price. I could see how a long bar style might require more installation finesse, and have more parts. So, yeah, more costly. The stops that clamp onto standing seams should be cheaper. But perhaps that's not sufficient in your area. I think you need more research or at least a call around and discussion about this with other contractors.

Flagstaff can get some pretty incredible snows.