Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

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its4inthemorning
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Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by its4inthemorning » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:47 pm

I am relatively new to Bogleheads, it is a very useful site to pick people's brains a bit.

We did a major kitchen renovation about 15 years ago, and now need to replace both the dishwasher and under-counter oven. I know there will be research and legwork involved, but I thought I would just ask a few questions here to get us started.

First, do these appliances generally come in standard sizes? Obviously we would like them to fit nicely in the spaces left when the old appliances are removed, so it will be good to know from the outset if we need to always carefully check dimensions.

Second, the old dishwasher is a Bosch, we were generally happy with it and it was quiet; we called a repair man, and when we told him its age, he said 10-12 years is the normal life and that he would not advise trying to repair. What are you people buying these days?

Third, the under-counter oven was GE, and we were less than enamored with it, mostly because of unpredicatable cooking times (I believe the oven was not always at the temperature entered). One feature we would like but do not now have is the temperature probe that allows you see the internal temperature of a turkey, roast, etc. Any recommendations?

Finally, I will mention that we try to avoid a lot of bells and whistles on appliances, as we don't really use them and they are just more things to go wrong.

Thanks for any help.

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its4inthemorning
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by its4inthemorning » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:51 pm

Sorry, this was meant for consumer issues section & I do not know how to move it.

Lalamimi
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by Lalamimi » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:54 pm

Replaced built in oven - GE Profile - it was an open box floor model, got it for a steal. Dishwasher - Kitchen Aid. Liked it over the Bosch.
Best Buy had a ready good deal this summer. Yes, pretty much standard sizes. We were doing some minor remodeling, the built in Jenn air microwave had gone out ( Home Warranty covered new one - which we got for $20 at Home Depot, and hubby ordered a new surround), and the appliances had 2003 dates on them. Researched some, asked neighbors who had updated.

LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by LittleMaggieMae » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:52 pm

You will need to measure your current appliances and the space available for them and then pay attention to the sizes of the new appliances.
I have a 1940's era house with a 1940's era sized kitchen (its' never had a remodel). The fridge does have an "alcove" of sorts. The previous fridge was pretty much off the rack - no special concerns about size. I replaced that 18 yo refrigerator 2 years ago. And out of the hundreds of models of refrigerators available only 4 fridges would fit in the space I had available.

Measure your space and pay attention to appliance sizes. You can look at appliances online and see their specs. That might help you find the terminology to use in searches. For example: I discovered the words "counter width' generally meant the fridge would likely fit in my kitchen.

Edited to add: friends also recently replaced appliances in their updated kitchen (15 years ago) and they too had a limited choice of appliances that would fit into the spaces. The appliances they purchased are good quality and look fine in the kitchen. It's just weird that there's dozens of models and whatnot - but you might only have 2 or 3 to choose from because of size constraints.

LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by LittleMaggieMae » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:00 am

One feature we would like but do not now have is the temperature probe that allows you see the internal temperature of a turkey, roast, etc. Any recommendation.
Get a Thermo Pop thermometer from ThermoWorks. It uses a common inexpensive CR 2032 battery. Get one in a bright color and you'll always be able to find it in your kitchen drawer or when it's out on the counter.

OK, you can't use a Thermo Pop in the oven -- but it's still a darn handy best food thermometer I've ever had.

mighty72
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by mighty72 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:08 am

[moved to Personal Consumer Issue sub-forum -mighty72 (moderator)]

JOEVANDAL
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by JOEVANDAL » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:31 am

Whatever you do, don't buy fridgedare. We did a kitchen remodel years ago and the fridge, microwave, oven and dishwasher were all crap. They looked great but the quality was poor. We have since replaced the dishwasher with a kitchenaide, and the microwave with a GE. Both are better quality and much quieter

Griffeycom
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by Griffeycom » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:53 am

JOEVANDAL wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:31 am
Whatever you do, don't buy fridgedare. We did a kitchen remodel years ago and the fridge, microwave, oven and dishwasher were all crap. They looked great but the quality was poor. We have since replaced the dishwasher with a kitchenaide, and the microwave with a GE. Both are better quality and much quieter
I'm happy with our Frigidaire gas range...my GE fridge however is a different story. You look at the plastic drawers/shelves and they break.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by jabberwockOG » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:08 am

Sadly buying new appliances is a crap shoot at best. As an example we have been very happy with our brand new new LG frig and washing machine but there are a ton of horror stories about LG appliances on the internet. Almost every appliance brand has QA issues these days. Many brands have been consolidated and made by the same manufacturer. Few appliances today are made to last more than 5-8 years. A brand may have one model that does fantastic, and another model (virtually identical) that has numerous issues.
Last edited by jabberwockOG on Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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lthenderson
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by lthenderson » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:10 am

its4inthemorning wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:47 pm
First, do these appliances generally come in standard sizes? Obviously we would like them to fit nicely in the spaces left when the old appliances are removed, so it will be good to know from the outset if we need to always carefully check dimensions.
Yes appliances do come in standard sizes. Standard dishwasher widths are 24 inches though they do have compact models at 18 inches. Stoves also come in standard sizes but you will find more variations out there. Standard is 30 inches wide though they go a lot wider than that. I've seen some nearly 60 inches wide. There are also compact models that I've seen down to 24 inches wide. When shopping for new appliances, measure the space between the cabinets that the appliance must fit in, jot down that number and head off to the store. I sometimes take a tape measure with me so I don't have to wait for a salesperson to look up the information in the manual.

There are tons of "which appliance brand is the best" threads on here and other sites and advice is all over the map. Personally, I only buy appliances that I know I can get serviced locally if needed and parts are readily available. To find out this information, I call my local repairman and ask his advice before buying any appliance.

btenny
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by btenny » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:17 pm

Yes a standard dishwashers is 24 inches wide. Ovens come in 24, 27, 30 and 36 inch standard sizes. I replaced my appliances two years ago with Kitchen Aid units. I already had an older Kitchen Aid refrigerator that is 24 years old and still works great and looks great. Only fixed the ice maker in all those years. They are great appliances and very reliable. The new dishwasher is ultra quiet and uses little energy and water. The oven is convection and conventional all in one unit. You just select the method. Ours is a 27 inch model with a microwave installed above it. It bakes great.

As far as cooking temperature probes I recommend a small battery unit that sets on the counter with the probe going inside the turkey inside the oven. I use mine all the time. It works great. See below.

https://www.amazon.com/ThermoPro-TP-17- ... 1185&psc=1

Good Luck.

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Bogle7
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Temp Probe

Post by Bogle7 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:20 pm

its4inthemorning wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:47 pm
One feature we would like but do not now have is the temperature probe that allows you see the internal temperature of a turkey, roast, etc. Any recommendations?
You don't. They break. Replacements are expensive.
I have had them. I have them now for 2 fancy Miele ovens and never use them.
I use https://www.amazon.com/ThermoPro-Digita ... 01IHHLB3W/ which costs $13.

iamlucky13
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by iamlucky13 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:31 pm

its4inthemorning wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:47 pm
Second, the old dishwasher is a Bosch, we were generally happy with it and it was quiet; we called a repair man, and when we told him its age, he said 10-12 years is the normal life and that he would not advise trying to repair.
If you are a DIY type, then you might trying doing a web search for the symptoms, or your own inspection of it to try to locate the source of the problem. The qualify of information varies a lot, but often you can find a resolution for a specific problem this way. Replacement part prices usually aren't too bad, but the labor costs are what will make it a poor value.

If you are not the DIY type, expect to spend $100+ just to get a repairman to your house to diagnose the problem, plus pay hourly for the repair and a steep markup on parts they buy. The additional useful life gained may or may not be worth the cost - eg, suppose you spend $200 on a repair of a device with a 10 year life expectancy and get 2-1/2 years additional use on an appliance that costs $800 to replace with a comparable model - That's roughly break even.

Consumer Reports cites a study by the National Association of Home Builders that puts the life expectancy of a dishwasher at 9 years. For electric ranges they say 13 years, and gas ranges 15 years. They don't state their methodology - if it is based on sales volume versus number of existing housing units, then it captures a non-trivial number of appliances replaced still in reasonably serviceable condition because they're out of style or similar reasons.

Personally, since dishwashers are relatively simple machines that don't deal with high loads or need tight tolerance, I think 9 years is a poor life expectancy, except perhaps for the entry level models, which are surprisingly cheap to buy and mostly plastic. For a premium brand like Bosch, I think even 15 years is little disappointing.

jpelder
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by jpelder » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:35 pm

Bosch seems to top the Consumer Reports Dishwasher ratings (Ascenta Series, 300 Series, and 100 Series).

KitchenAid's KDT Series is also up there. I have one of these that I bought with my house two years ago. It cleans extremely well, and it's been reliable so far. Quiet and energy-efficient. I think they fixed the top rack roller issue. My top rack roller mount was plastic, and it got brittle after all the hot-cold cycles. The replacement has metal tabs, and looks much sturdier.

For ovens, I agree with the others about measuring the slot. Is your slot freestanding, drop-in or slide-in? Gas, electric, or both?

Thermador is the gold standard in awesome, but I've been very happy with my Samsung gas range so far. LG seems to have good ratings on Consumer Reports. If I were replacing, I would get a dual-fuel (gas stovetop, electric oven). Continuous grates, not individual (so you can slide pans off and re-position as desired)

And I also agree to just get a separate thermometer probe.

rich126
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by rich126 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:36 pm

I try to do some research on items but I avoid the high end products since I'm doubtful you get a longer life span from them. You seem to be mostly paying for features or prestige.

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fishandgolf
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by fishandgolf » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:00 pm

*****

NOTE: Pay attention to the depth of your counters.

We just moved into a new house....our counter depth is 24".....which is pretty standard. Most standard refrigerator are 33-35" inches in depth. When we started looking we found the best price of all refrigerators where the ones with the most depth.....because they're standard....and less expensive. We were concerned about the fridge sticking out from the counter 8-10"......it would look awful.....IMHO.. :D

We ended up special ordering a GE Profile - Counter Depth....I believe it was 28.5" in depth. We had to pay almost $500.00 more but we both agreed that we wanted to be happy with our appliances and not regret it later. Actually, we ordered all GE appliances for the house. We chose the Black Zinc color......and really like it!

Good Luck!

Incognito
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by Incognito » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:12 pm

Just got KitchenAid dishwasher (39dB) - perhaps the quietest model in the market. BestBuy had the lowest price (even lower than Costco) around New Year. There is no sales tax if you pay for the installation and BB was running a 'free installation' promo. Go figure! Just paid for new set of hoses. DW is extremely happy

Incognito
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by Incognito » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:14 pm

Looking to replace the over the range microwave. Can't decide between a slim OTR microwave or the combo of Range Hood + countertop microwave with convection oven.

Unladen_Swallow
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by Unladen_Swallow » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:24 pm

I am in the middle of replacing our oven/microwave built in unit. It is very old.

They do come in standard sizes. I suggest taking measure of your infrastructure and unit. Take pictures too.

Then find a reputable store that sells these,. I went to Nebraska furniture. The sales rep was very helpful. He suggested the size (an extra small one) that would fit. I picked the model I liked. I am paying their fees for installation and removal. Their installation team paid a home visit and did detailed measurements to make sure there would be no problems.

I am happy with how the process worked so far (I am not savvy about such matters).
"I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong." - Richard Feynman

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its4inthemorning
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by its4inthemorning » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:30 pm

I am very much appreciative of the many comments and suggestions. Will especially take to heart the idea of seeing what brands our repairman services (when you have a good and trustworthy tradesman--and we do--they are like gold, I would rather not search for someone new), also the advice to rely on separate temperature probes from Amazon.

With accurate measurements in hand, will head out to an appliance store that was recommended to us by a couple who just went through replacing some of their appliances this coming week. Better half wants to stay with Bosch, so that will facilitate choosing the dishwasher. Thank you all again!

north2016
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by north2016 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:45 pm

I would avoid Bosch dishwashers. They are appealing in many ways but do not clean very well.

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Bogle7
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Bosch Dishwashers

Post by Bogle7 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:55 pm

north2016 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:45 pm
I would avoid Bosch dishwashers...do not clean very well.
I disagree 100%.
Experience based upon 3 Bosch dishwashers.

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tarnation
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by tarnation » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:20 pm

I just bought a Bosch Benchmark that my wife wanted. It’s ok, wish I had got the Miele I wanted (it’s better :annoyed )
Image

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Bogle7
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Miele

Post by Bogle7 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:35 pm

tarnation wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:20 pm
I just bought a Bosch Benchmark that my wife wanted. It’s ok, wish I had got the Miele I wanted (it’s better)
We are very happy with our Miele.
Send me a PM in 5 years and ask me if I am still happy.

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BroIceCream
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by BroIceCream » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:56 pm

We've seen great reviews and comments on Bosch diswashers -- we just don't like the layout of the dish trays.

KitchenAid's are also good, and we've used them and Whirlpools for years. However, on the new kitchenAid's we've looked at in stores, we notice they have vents on the SIDE of the doors? Our initial impression is of steam venting directly into the wooden cabinetry of our kitchen.

Does anyone have KitchenAids with such side small vents in the doors, who can comment on what the vent is for? steam? just heat airflow for electronic controls?

virginiabirdie
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by virginiabirdie » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:15 pm

Miele makes the best dishwasher IMHO. Bosch is second best, but our Mieles are waaaayyy better. They dry and clean the dishes more quietly and more thoroughly. It's made in Germany and is slightly SMALLER than American dishwashers. Our contractor added some extra shims and it's fine. Make sure yours does the same. In our last house, the contractor did not do that, and it wiggled around.

BTW, I've always had terrible luck with GE everything.

Honestly, the most reliable oven I've ever had was a Hot Point cheapie. I think the *less* bells and whistles the better. We have a Wolf now, and it's fine too. But I'm not sure I like it any more than my Hot Point. One thing I do insist on: no electronics (no clock or timer, etc). Those always break eventually.

Mike83
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Re: Replacing Oven and Dishwasher

Post by Mike83 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:02 am

Many people I know buy the euro products because they have been the quietest. Some american dishwashers have macerators that grind up food particles to dispose of them, and this will will always add a few decibels. The euro models (and some american models) accumulate food debris in a cup 'that should be emptied every month' (yuck).

If you have owned a bosch you are using a top-third model, at least in terms of price. I noticed when I replaced my Kitchen Aid last year that some of the new models have switched to a flushing system that uses neither a macerator or a built in trash cup, and it is as quiet as the euro models since it doesn't grind anything. I have been using this now for a year and it is as quiet as any meile or bosch I have seen in action. And I like that it doesn't rinse my plates with 29 day old food particles.

And I still don't need to prewash my dishes before they got into the machine.

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