Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

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RudyS
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by RudyS » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:11 pm

averagelonghorn wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 am
....

I'm a Realtor, and in general don't tend to have potential buyers sign a buyer's rep agreement until they're ready to actually make an offer, but many buyer's agents do.

In future, feel free to go to Open Houses, but always tell them you are working with an agent already. (For the most part, at least in my market area, Open Houses mostly have the purpose of the agent getting leads on buyers generally, not necessarily just that one house.... Actually selling the house to a prospect that attends the open house is a rare bonus.)

And in the future, any other showings should be through your buyer's agent; that's their job, make 'em work for it.
That's what we did the last time we went house-hunting. Always told the agent at the open houses that we were already working with "Mary". Small town, all the agents know each other. Also, did not sign the buyers rep agreement till we wrote an offer. Turned out we did not buy anything there, moved out of the state. Then when we sold our house, our "buyers agent" became our sellers agent because we had come to like her.

nguy44
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by nguy44 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:14 pm

About 30 years ago we bought our current house in a similar situation. To make a long story short, even though our agent took us to see 30+ houses, we found our house via an open house ad and went ourselves (we saw the ad on a Sunday morning and went the same day). The sellers agent kept telling us we could make an offer through them, but my wife and I discussed it, we felt we could not in good conscience cut our buyer agent out, as the houses he did show us helped us better determine the type of house and features that were important to us. So we made the offer through our agent. We could tell he really appreciated us doing this, and it worked to our benefit.

pyld76
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by pyld76 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:31 pm

Have your agent make the offer. The seller’s agent has to relay it to the seller. If the seller wants to sell the house and your offer is right, the selling agent will get over it, work it out with your agent on fees, or decide that 0 dollars is better than 3. Ultimately, on a 100 day listing, I’ll bet your offer moves if it’s at all reasonable to the seller.

I’ve regularly answered the question of “do you have an agent” with “Should I decide effect an offer, my goal is to reduce the total compensation to the middlemen. How and if I’m currently represented won’t change that.” The smart ones get it.

Realtors are financial croupiers, generally. A few are with some fee—nothing like the typical “standards” in the US. Treat them as such.

mpnret
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by mpnret » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:02 pm

In reading back through all the posts it looks like your agent did most of the work, discussing your wants and needs to determine what type of house you desire, showing you houses, even looking at the subject house to evaluate it, and at some point I assume qualifying you. Then you created this problem by visiting an open house and then calling the sellers agent to show the house again. He has very little time in this showing the house once but once you mentioned you have an agent he tried to squeeze you so he could get a double commission on this sale. Go back to your agent and have her submit the offer.

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:17 pm

What most people call a buyer's agent is really a subcontractor of the seller's agent. They have a fiduciary duty, but it is not to you. The person is an agent, but is not your agent.

There exist buyer's agents who are your agent. You can tell somebody is one because you have to pay them yourself.

I found it adequate to have an attorney, who was my attorney. He wasn't representing anybody else in the transaction. I went and looked at properties on my own, using real estate listings which were freely available online, made an offer through the seller's agent, under the asking price, in the middle of winter when there's very little going on in the real estate market. The owner accepted and the transaction closed. I ended up paying my attorney less than 1% of the agreed price. Add in a licensed, bonded property inspector, who worked for me and not anybody else, and it was just about one percent total.

PJW

invest4
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by invest4 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:34 pm

A few comments:


[*]Agents: while I begrudge no one from making a living. In my experience, the perceived value does not justify the cost and I find practices such as the seller pays the buyers agent to be laughable with the main result being the seller and buyer out additional monies. Industry is getting squeezed for a reason...this will continue. Sold my last house via flat fee mls - saved a ton on the front and was able to set the commission for the buyer's agent as well for additional savings.

[*]Real estate attorney: vital - ensures all is as it should be and in our case, generous with their knowledge /experience.

In your specific instance:

[*]Involving buyers agent seems pointless, unless you've already signed up and / or feel an obligation due to work previously provided. If anything, I would not utilize the buyers agent and negotiate a lower sale price as a result...even if you split the difference of the est. cost...both seller and buyer win.

[*]If you are really set on the house, definitely push...your offer must be presented and based upon what you have provided, the approach employed by the seller's agent appears to be very unprofessional and not in the interest of the seller or the company employing her / him.

Best of luck!

Godot
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Godot » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:15 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:36 pm
jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:28 pm
MP123 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:24 pm
Did your buyers agent ever show you the house? Not clear that they've done anything in this deal.
My buyer's agent is a Redfin agent. He never showed us the house personally, but I had him check out the house on our behalf to check out the quality of construction, etc.
Is he a home inspector? How is he qualified to check the quality of construction.
Great point!
Estragon: I can't go on like this. | Vladimir: That's what you think. | ― Samuel Beckett, Waiting for Godot

Big Dog
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Big Dog » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:18 pm

jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The sellers agent did all the work and you didn’t tell them that you had an agent. They deserve the whole sale.

You don’t have to miss out on the house. You just need to get over being miffed.

Sorry.

Cheers
He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
Well here is your (ahem) subtefuge. You should have just been up-front with the selling agent. 'Hey, we just happened to drive by and say the open house so we thought we'd stop in to take a quick tour without our agent if that's ok?'

so to answer your question, 'no, you were not wrong to have the sellers agent show you the house'. But you were wrong in not telling the selling agent that you had your own agent who would be writing up any offers.

student
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by student » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:23 pm

HoosierJim wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:48 am
It's best to operate under the assumption that the agent's fiduciary duty is to themselves and to close the deal.
Exactly right.

rich126
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by rich126 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:47 pm

He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
Legally I have no idea what is allowed or not allowed. I just know that the above is considered a mistake. Once you said you didn't have an agent, you gave up (whether that is in a legal sense or not I don't know) the right to bring in another agent later.

If you are worried about someone caring about your position you can hire an attorney to represent you at settlement or anywhere along the process but obviously that won't come free.

I've often looked at homes w/o an agent being present but I would give that agent's name, card, etc. to the seller's agent.

And really since both agents almost always get paid from the seller, I'm not sure I would consider any of them to be unbiased and representing you.

Mr.BB
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Mr.BB » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:03 pm

jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The sellers agent did all the work and you didn’t tell them that you had an agent. They deserve the whole sale.

You don’t have to miss out on the house. You just need to get over being miffed.

Sorry.

Cheers
He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
Using the seller agent as your own is just as bad as using a sellers agent home inspection person that they recommend.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

trueblueky
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by trueblueky » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:06 pm

HoosierJim wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:48 am
trueblueky wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The agent has a fiduciary responsibility to represent the seller.
I hear this a lot but it's almost never borne out in practice. It's best to operate under the assumption that the agent's fiduciary duty is to themselves and to close the deal. If the agent was truly acting as a fiduciary they would present the deal you want to make.

Image
Maybe I should be clearer. In states where I have lived and bought/sold property, an agent who represents the seller has a fiduciary duty to the seller, not to the buyer. This is true even if one agent takes on both the seller agent and buyer agent roles.

When I have had a buyer's agent, they have been careful to let me know when we looked at a house where they were listing agent.

State laws may vary.

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jfn111
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by jfn111 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:14 pm

averagelonghorn wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 am
Did you sign a Buyer's Representation agreement with the Redfin agent? If so, it might spell out the commission your buyer's agent is entitled to, and probably says they will try first to collect from the Seller (or Seller's agent.) But you could be obligated to pay it if they can't collect from the seller/listing agent.

I do agree that you should discuss the situation with your buyer's agent, but read any agreements you have with them to understand what you have committed to. Of course it's better for you to be represented.

I'm a Realtor, and in general don't tend to have potential buyers sign a buyer's rep agreement until they're ready to actually make an offer, but many buyer's agents do.

In future, feel free to go to Open Houses, but always tell them you are working with an agent already. (For the most part, at least in my market area, Open Houses mostly have the purpose of the agent getting leads on buyers generally, not necessarily just that one house.... Actually selling the house to a prospect that attends the open house is a rare bonus.)

And in the future, any other showings should be through your buyer's agent; that's their job, make 'em work for it.
+1

TallBoy29er
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by TallBoy29er » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:48 pm

Lots of off topic nonsense on this thread.

Write up an offer, and have your Redfin agent present it to the selling agent. I would file a complaint if the selling agent did not present it to the sellers. I would also expect the sellers would be more than upset.

Simple path forward.

deltaneutral83
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by deltaneutral83 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:22 pm

jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The sellers agent did all the work and you didn’t tell them that you had an agent. They deserve the whole sale.

You don’t have to miss out on the house. You just need to get over being miffed.

Sorry.

Cheers
He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
I'm lost, you lied directly to the seller's agent verbally and were surprised to get less than ideal repercussions?

michaeljc70
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by michaeljc70 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:36 pm

jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The sellers agent did all the work and you didn’t tell them that you had an agent. They deserve the whole sale.

You don’t have to miss out on the house. You just need to get over being miffed.

Sorry.

Cheers
He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
I think that is it. When you said you had no agent you did agree that this agent was going to get all the commission whether you knew it or not. You weren't agents and there was no one else in the picture other than the seller's agent. You can have your agent present the offer but that is no guarantee they will get a commission. There are specific rules on that. It is called procuring cause of the transaction.

Paladin23
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Paladin23 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:33 pm

As someone noted earlier in this thread, unless you have agreed with a buyer agent to pay the buyer agent a commission yourself, the only way any agents are getting paid is by splitting the commission paid by the Seller to the listing agent. Even in a dual agency, which indeed in a complicated and sometimes controversial issue (though very common), in most cases all of the commission comes out of the pocket of the seller. That means ultimately it will come down to what offer you make that the seller agrees to, and that contract will specify who gets paid what.

Although the contract can specify who gets paid what, that does not necessarily resolve which agent is entitled to the commission, which will depend on the listing agreement, the buyer agent agreement if any, the state law, and the rules of the local real estate agent association.

For those who are not familiar with Redfin, they do require as a corporate policy that anyone using them on the buy side execute an agency agreement, though as I recall the ones I have seen explain how the commission is paid by the seller. One reason many buyers like Redfin is that they rebate part of the commission back to the buyer. Some Buyers also prefer their general business model, where most of their senior agents are on salary and not paid directly by the commission, and many of their less experienced agents who show the properties are gig employees paid per showing. We have bought and sold using Redfin, and liked the model and the service, but many traditional agent in our area did not like the model and in some cases said they did not want to work with Redfin, so I am sure the opinions will vary.

Hope that sheds a little more light on it.

GreenGrowTheDollars
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by GreenGrowTheDollars » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:31 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:58 am
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:27 am
corysold wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:57 am
The issue is the Seller's agent doesn't want to pay your agent a commission when they did all of the work. Why would they?

Your agent should have been "dragged" along to all of the showings, that's what they are there for. Redfin agents muddy these waters are they aren't full commission agents and don't offer the same services, but they shouldn't expect to get as such either.

The selling agent showed you the house twice, they deserve to get paid for that. You can still submit an offer through them, you should know what you want to pay for the house. The sellers and can take it or not, there isn't much negotiation at that point. Then hire your own attorney and inspector to get an independent review of the house.

Your agent did nothing, they don't deserve a big check for writing an offer after all of the hard work was done.
Showing a house is two hours of work all in at the high end. Hardly worth 3% of the selling price.
That's two hours more than the buyer's agent put in....
Every time we've bought or sold a home, the RE agent did the vast majority of the work AFTER the offer was accepted. (And it was way more than a couple of hours of work.)

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ResearchMed
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:34 am

GreenGrowTheDollars wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:31 pm
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:58 am
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:27 am
corysold wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:57 am
The issue is the Seller's agent doesn't want to pay your agent a commission when they did all of the work. Why would they?

Your agent should have been "dragged" along to all of the showings, that's what they are there for. Redfin agents muddy these waters are they aren't full commission agents and don't offer the same services, but they shouldn't expect to get as such either.

The selling agent showed you the house twice, they deserve to get paid for that. You can still submit an offer through them, you should know what you want to pay for the house. The sellers and can take it or not, there isn't much negotiation at that point. Then hire your own attorney and inspector to get an independent review of the house.

Your agent did nothing, they don't deserve a big check for writing an offer after all of the hard work was done.
Showing a house is two hours of work all in at the high end. Hardly worth 3% of the selling price.
That's two hours more than the buyer's agent put in....
Every time we've bought or sold a home, the RE agent did the vast majority of the work AFTER the offer was accepted. (And it was way more than a couple of hours of work.)
This ^^ - not to mention the work *our* agent has always put in BEFORE any offer is accepted, whether we were the seller or buyer.
Our agent has helped considerably in terms of *us* getting the house in a multiple offer situation, or getting a lower price otherwise, and also helped us get a higher price when we were sellers.
We obviously don't know just how much time went into those negotiations, but in all cases, there was considerable back-and-forth with us, and each of those times, there would also have been some time spent between our agent and the other agent.

In some cases, we went to several open houses with them, but in others, we went to open houses without them, but we ALWAYS signed in with THEIR name... something like our first names only and then agent's name. Meaning... the seller's agent could not reach us other tha through our agent, b/c they didn't know how to contact us. (If we were pressed for a phone number at a sign in, we usually just refused, but other times, we just put in our agent's phone number. "No problem".)

And then after the offer was (finally) accepted, our agent also met us when the house inspection was being done.
In some cases, an agent can help a new buyer through the mortgage process, but we were always pre-approved before we found a house.

RM
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corysold
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by corysold » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:40 am

Be sure you haven't signed anything with the Redfin agent before proceeding. If you have, you will be on the hook for the commission whether the seller agent pays it out or not.

The seller agent's broker might fight the payment, since they think they are the procuring cause (which they are). Your agent won't care since you signed an agreement that usually will say you agree to pay them X% in the event the seller agent doesn't, whether through a disagreement, only offering Y%, buying a FSBO who wasn't offering buyer's agent commission etc.

jaydub71
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by jaydub71 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:20 am

I think everyone is missing the point here. This whole situation stinks and is more common than you think. However, if I am the homeowner and I find out about this, I am ticked off in a major way. The goal of the seller's agent is to produce offers for the seller to consider. It is not trying to get both sides of the transaction, even if that means getting screwed by a buyer's agent coming in after the fact. That is something for the two agents brokers to work out among themselves, not the buyer and the seller.

Have your agent submit the offer. If the seller's agent refuses to present it to the seller, your agent's broker should call the seller's agent broker and complain. If that doesn't work, the next call should be to the state real estate board.

In all of this, the buyer's agent (and broker) should be gracious and understanding of the situation that they are coming in on the backside of the deal and potentially getting a commission they don't really deserve.

michaeljc70
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by michaeljc70 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:32 am

jaydub71 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:20 am
I think everyone is missing the point here. This whole situation stinks and is more common than you think. However, if I am the homeowner and I find out about this, I am ticked off in a major way. The goal of the seller's agent is to produce offers for the seller to consider. It is not trying to get both sides of the transaction, even if that means getting screwed by a buyer's agent coming in after the fact. That is something for the two agents brokers to work out among themselves, not the buyer and the seller.

Have your agent submit the offer. If the seller's agent refuses to present it to the seller, your agent's broker should call the seller's agent broker and complain. If that doesn't work, the next call should be to the state real estate board.

In all of this, the buyer's agent (and broker) should be gracious and understanding of the situation that they are coming in on the backside of the deal and potentially getting a commission they don't really deserve.
I think many are missing the point. The point is licensed realtors agree to certain rules and regulations whether a seller's agent or buyer's agent. Those rules and regulations are what is relevant. Not what people think is fair, what people want to happen or what people think should happen. You can argue a regulation or law isn't fair but that doesn't change it. The seller's agent may let it go and not question giving the buyer's agent their commission. They may also not let it go and then the OP is getting a buyer's agent to do work they may never be paid for.

Lee_WSP
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Lee_WSP » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:19 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:36 pm
jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The sellers agent did all the work and you didn’t tell them that you had an agent. They deserve the whole sale.

You don’t have to miss out on the house. You just need to get over being miffed.

Sorry.

Cheers
He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
I think that is it. When you said you had no agent you did agree that this agent was going to get all the commission whether you knew it or not. You weren't agents and there was no one else in the picture other than the seller's agent. You can have your agent present the offer but that is no guarantee they will get a commission. There are specific rules on that. It is called procuring cause of the transaction.
Those rules do not apply to buyers. Only to Realtors. The only repercussion is buyers agent is now no longer entitled to the commission because sellers agent has procuring cause and knows about it and can choose to enforce it. But by doing so, he may give up a sale. The smarter thing to do would be for sellers agent to reduce the buyers fee and get the deal done.

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snackdog
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by snackdog » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:22 am

I would retain a local real estate attorney (for any transaction), listen to her advice, and potentially use her in lieu of the buyers agent since the remainder of the deal at this point is negotiations and legal.

michaeljc70
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by michaeljc70 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:33 am

Lee_WSP wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:19 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:36 pm
jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The sellers agent did all the work and you didn’t tell them that you had an agent. They deserve the whole sale.

You don’t have to miss out on the house. You just need to get over being miffed.

Sorry.

Cheers
He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
I think that is it. When you said you had no agent you did agree that this agent was going to get all the commission whether you knew it or not. You weren't agents and there was no one else in the picture other than the seller's agent. You can have your agent present the offer but that is no guarantee they will get a commission. There are specific rules on that. It is called procuring cause of the transaction.
Those rules do not apply to buyers. Only to Realtors. The only repercussion is buyers agent is now no longer entitled to the commission because sellers agent has procuring cause and knows about it and can choose to enforce it. But by doing so, he may give up a sale. The smarter thing to do would be for sellers agent to reduce the buyers fee and get the deal done.
I agree that the seller's agent, given the house has been on the market 100+ days, should try and get the deal done. However, this could blow up later (for the buyer's agent) in arbitration over the commission even after the sale closes.

If I was the OP, I would just do the deal with the seller's agent and use a real estate attorney to make sure everything is good on their side. I think putting too much trust into an agent (buyer or seller) who is getting paid by commission is foolish. You and your attorney need to look out for yourself.

EddyB
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by EddyB » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:05 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:32 am
jaydub71 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:20 am
I think everyone is missing the point here. This whole situation stinks and is more common than you think. However, if I am the homeowner and I find out about this, I am ticked off in a major way. The goal of the seller's agent is to produce offers for the seller to consider. It is not trying to get both sides of the transaction, even if that means getting screwed by a buyer's agent coming in after the fact. That is something for the two agents brokers to work out among themselves, not the buyer and the seller.

Have your agent submit the offer. If the seller's agent refuses to present it to the seller, your agent's broker should call the seller's agent broker and complain. If that doesn't work, the next call should be to the state real estate board.

In all of this, the buyer's agent (and broker) should be gracious and understanding of the situation that they are coming in on the backside of the deal and potentially getting a commission they don't really deserve.
I think many are missing the point. The point is licensed realtors agree to certain rules and regulations whether a seller's agent or buyer's agent. Those rules and regulations are what is relevant. Not what people think is fair, what people want to happen or what people think should happen. You can argue a regulation or law isn't fair but that doesn't change it. The seller's agent may let it go and not question giving the buyer's agent their commission. They may also not let it go and then the OP is getting a buyer's agent to do work they may never be paid for.
The seller’s agent has refused a requested additional showing. Is there still a continuous series of events?

michaeljc70
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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by michaeljc70 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

EddyB wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:05 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:32 am
jaydub71 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:20 am
I think everyone is missing the point here. This whole situation stinks and is more common than you think. However, if I am the homeowner and I find out about this, I am ticked off in a major way. The goal of the seller's agent is to produce offers for the seller to consider. It is not trying to get both sides of the transaction, even if that means getting screwed by a buyer's agent coming in after the fact. That is something for the two agents brokers to work out among themselves, not the buyer and the seller.

Have your agent submit the offer. If the seller's agent refuses to present it to the seller, your agent's broker should call the seller's agent broker and complain. If that doesn't work, the next call should be to the state real estate board.

In all of this, the buyer's agent (and broker) should be gracious and understanding of the situation that they are coming in on the backside of the deal and potentially getting a commission they don't really deserve.
I think many are missing the point. The point is licensed realtors agree to certain rules and regulations whether a seller's agent or buyer's agent. Those rules and regulations are what is relevant. Not what people think is fair, what people want to happen or what people think should happen. You can argue a regulation or law isn't fair but that doesn't change it. The seller's agent may let it go and not question giving the buyer's agent their commission. They may also not let it go and then the OP is getting a buyer's agent to do work they may never be paid for.
The seller’s agent has refused a requested additional showing. Is there still a continuous series of events?
jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:10 pm

So I told the seller's agent that our buyer's agent would be present at the final showing, and he refused. He said if we wanted the house, we had to do dual agency and use him as our agent.

They refused to let the buyer's agent in, not show the property.

Basically, buyer said no, we don't have an agent and then when they decide they want the house they suddenly have an agent. Probably to get the Redfin kickback.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by nydoc » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:27 am

What if I go see a property on behalf of my brother and later on I decide to buy that property with my own buyer’s agent for myself, do these rules and conventions still apply? Just sayin

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:28 am

If I were determined to to purchase, I would send a request to seller’s home -asking to view home again along with info on how much you like the home. I assume the seller would be mad as hell at the agent.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by donall » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:52 am

An attorney should be able to provide guidance with this situation.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Lee_WSP » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:23 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:33 am
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:19 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:36 pm
jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:21 pm
The sellers agent did all the work and you didn’t tell them that you had an agent. They deserve the whole sale.

You don’t have to miss out on the house. You just need to get over being miffed.

Sorry.

Cheers
He showed us the house once. He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not. He suggested using him and we said we'll think about it. We never agreed or signed anything.
I think that is it. When you said you had no agent you did agree that this agent was going to get all the commission whether you knew it or not. You weren't agents and there was no one else in the picture other than the seller's agent. You can have your agent present the offer but that is no guarantee they will get a commission. There are specific rules on that. It is called procuring cause of the transaction.
Those rules do not apply to buyers. Only to Realtors. The only repercussion is buyers agent is now no longer entitled to the commission because sellers agent has procuring cause and knows about it and can choose to enforce it. But by doing so, he may give up a sale. The smarter thing to do would be for sellers agent to reduce the buyers fee and get the deal done.
I agree that the seller's agent, given the house has been on the market 100+ days, should try and get the deal done. However, this could blow up later (for the buyer's agent) in arbitration over the commission even after the sale closes.

If I was the OP, I would just do the deal with the seller's agent and use a real estate attorney to make sure everything is good on their side. I think putting too much trust into an agent (buyer or seller) who is getting paid by commission is foolish. You and your attorney need to look out for yourself.
The two realtors should hash it out between themselves. If the seller agent refuses to split the commission, buyer can make a decision based off those facts at that point in time.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Miakis » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:35 pm

I would tell the seller's agent that you feel uncomfortable with dual representation and that you feel that there's a conflict of interest, since he's friends with the seller. Therefore, you'd like to use a different agent and have one who has been showing you homes. Tell him that you're unlikely to feel comfortable or truly satisfied at the end of the transaction if you use him, because you'll always feel that he was representing the seller and not you.

If the realtor is worth anything, they'll realize that protecting their reputation is far more important than an extra commission on this one sale. If he doesn't though, and you end up being forced to use him, then you should write an honest review about him. You can include the pertinent details and make it clear that you felt bullied and tricked and that he appeared to prioritize his commission over the interests of the buyer or the seller. These days Zillow reviews are important for most agents, but your review can also go on Google, Facebook, and other real estate sites.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by ras4250 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:01 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:17 pm
I ended up paying my attorney less than 1% of the agreed price. Add in a licensed, bonded property inspector, who worked for me and not anybody else, and it was just about one percent total.

PJW
Wait you paid your attorney a % based on sale price? Why? Did he do anything agent related? I’ve never seen an attorney charge % unless they were acting as agent too and in that case they should be paid from the seller agent commission!!

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by stoptothink » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:03 pm

ras4250 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:01 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:17 pm
I ended up paying my attorney less than 1% of the agreed price. Add in a licensed, bonded property inspector, who worked for me and not anybody else, and it was just about one percent total.

PJW
Wait you paid your attorney a % based on sale price? Why? Did he do anything agent related? I’ve never seen an attorney charge % unless they were acting as agent too and in that case they should be paid from the seller agent commission!!
Looks to me like the flat fee they paid an attorney was less than 1%.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Nate79 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:21 pm

I don't understand why you blatantly lied to the sellers agent. Perhaps if you want the house bad enough with your agent you should pay your own agent a commission yourself.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Lee_WSP » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:38 pm

Nate79 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:21 pm
I don't understand why you blatantly lied to the sellers agent. Perhaps if you want the house bad enough with your agent you should pay your own agent a commission yourself.
Buyers should pay their agents an hourly fee and get to take three percent off the purchase price. But alas, the system is rigged against us.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by illumination » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:59 pm

There's all sorts of weird laws in each state on how this goes down. I remember a family member had some sort of experience where an agent not representing the house was just there and demanded a commission later on the sale and it was basically a scam (in my opinion) they had been running and had quite a bit of success doing it as the laws were in their favor. The agent had to cut them in as there was a decent chance they would lose. I never really understood the "angle" but I found that story to be infuriating.

I say this as someone who used to be a real estate broker (but for commercial), I will be glad when technology cuts a lot of these middlemen out. It's almost like the era of having to pay a few hundred in brokerage fees if you wanted to buy a few shares of stock. That changed to just a few dollars, and now it's basically free.

I would go to the owner of the house if the broker is interfering with the sale and see what they think about it. I would be pretty upset if something like this meant a buyer may walk.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by ptyalism » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:47 pm

michaeljc70 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:58 am
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:27 am
corysold wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:57 am
The issue is the Seller's agent doesn't want to pay your agent a commission when they did all of the work. Why would they?

Your agent should have been "dragged" along to all of the showings, that's what they are there for. Redfin agents muddy these waters are they aren't full commission agents and don't offer the same services, but they shouldn't expect to get as such either.

The selling agent showed you the house twice, they deserve to get paid for that. You can still submit an offer through them, you should know what you want to pay for the house. The sellers and can take it or not, there isn't much negotiation at that point. Then hire your own attorney and inspector to get an independent review of the house.

Your agent did nothing, they don't deserve a big check for writing an offer after all of the hard work was done.
Showing a house is two hours of work all in at the high end. Hardly worth 3% of the selling price.
That's two hours more than the buyer's agent put in....
There is much more than two hours of work left. Showing the property is easy (unlock the door and look). Making sure everything from the offer thru the closing is in good order and accurate is financially important and IMO is much more important and why I want a realtor.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Jebediah » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:58 pm

mmmodem wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:52 am
The seller's agent showed you the house and ought to be paid for the work.
Work? What work? Such a ridiculous system, should've been 'disrupted' long ago.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by uberdoc » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:01 pm

I just got Redfin as buyer's agent. No locked in etc..They will also refund around .75% of their commission. This scam is exactly like AUM model of FAs. I hope this ends soon.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Jebediah » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:15 pm

corysold wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:57 am
The selling agent showed you the house twice, they deserve to get paid for that.
I disagree. Whether or not OP had an agent, and whether or not they showed up, doesn't change the "work" of showing the house. OP should have stated that a buyer's agent existed at the visit but it's fine for OP to just say oops, sorry I didn't make that clear at the time. Seller's agent is making a greedy move and shouldn't get away with it.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by midareff » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:21 pm

strafe wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:27 pm
I would submit an offer through your agent. The seller’s agent would presumably have an obligation to present your offer to the seller.
That seems to be correct in Florida.. other states may vary but it seems an honest agent representing the seller has an obligation to report all offers and may not reject by themselves.
.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by danielc » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:46 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 am
Look, you shouldn't have asked for the private showing, that's what buyers agents are for. It's how the system works. And yes they're all realtors so they're basically all in it.
I trust you, but I'm bewildered that it works that way. Asking someone to show you the product they're selling shouldn't be a big deal.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:51 pm

danielc wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:46 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 am
Look, you shouldn't have asked for the private showing, that's what buyers agents are for. It's how the system works. And yes they're all realtors so they're basically all in it.
I trust you, but I'm bewildered that it works that way. Asking someone to show you the product they're selling shouldn't be a big deal.
And it's not, unless you *already* have been in touch with someone who is a party to the transaction.
And it wasn't as if there had never been any mention.

Here is the problem in a nutshell, as has been pointed out:

From OP: ""...He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not...."
[emphasis added]

OP did not tell the truth to the seller agent. There was no necessary reason to do this [mislead/lie/evade/etc.], but this is the result.
No surprise if misleading someone in a business transaction leads to problems.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Lee_WSP » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:16 pm

danielc wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:46 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 am
Look, you shouldn't have asked for the private showing, that's what buyers agents are for. It's how the system works. And yes they're all realtors so they're basically all in it.
I trust you, but I'm bewildered that it works that way. Asking someone to show you the product they're selling shouldn't be a big deal.
It's because of the dumb procuring cause rule all realtors probably have to agree to. I'm sure the wording varies by state, but probably not by much. They're also motivated to avoid being accused of double dealing, so what they *typically* do is offload you to a member of their team so there's a paper wall between them but they keep it 'in house'.

This situation is unusual because the seller's agent is attempting to force dual agency upon the buyer. Probably not kosher in most states, but I'm not an expert on that. Not the dual agency part, but the forcing the buyer to accept dual agency part. If I were annoyed enough, I'd submit a complaint to the realty board if the seller's agent doesn't back down.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by michaeljc70 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:06 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:51 pm
danielc wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:46 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 am
Look, you shouldn't have asked for the private showing, that's what buyers agents are for. It's how the system works. And yes they're all realtors so they're basically all in it.
I trust you, but I'm bewildered that it works that way. Asking someone to show you the product they're selling shouldn't be a big deal.
And it's not, unless you *already* have been in touch with someone who is a party to the transaction.
And it wasn't as if there had never been any mention.

Here is the problem in a nutshell, as has been pointed out:

From OP: ""...He asked if we had an agent during the tour. We said we did not...."
[emphasis added]

OP did not tell the truth to the seller agent. There was no necessary reason to do this [mislead/lie/evade/etc.], but this is the result.
No surprise if misleading someone in a business transaction leads to problems.

RM
It is not clear to me if the OP didn't tell the truth. Maybe they didn't have a buyer's agent initially and then when they got serious about this property they wanted to get the Redfin kickback or decided they wanted one for other reasons. As you pointed out, this was a mistake but it isn't surprising the OP didn't know the rules around this as many people don't.

To clarify some information in other posts, the OP went to an open house and had the seller's agent show it to them one more time. Then, for the 3rd showing, wanted to bring in their buyer's agent.

One other thing I'll throw out there.....with 100 days on the market the owner may eventually decide to change agents making all this go away.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by Shallowpockets » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:19 am

Sounds like OP, the buyer, has cold feet. He has been looking for a house for a year. He has seen this house once before 2.5 months ago and then viewed it again. During that time I assume he has looked at other houses. Over this past year probably many houses. Maybe he doesn’t even want to buy a house. Maybe this agent mess is just another way to procrastinate.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by hand » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:32 am

corysold wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:13 am

No one has to accept dual agency. But the buyer needs to understand that their agent isn't going to get paid if they buy this house. They can decide if they want to still make the purchase or not. The buyer's agent should have informed them how the process works. That's Realtor 101. They didn't, so now they lose a commission. Every one learns a lesson.
It is unlikely that the buyer's agent "isn't going to get paid."
It is not unusual for realtor contracts to explicitly require the buyer to make up the shortfall should the buyer's agent not be paid at closing.

If it were me, I'd have my agent submit an offer to the selling agent AND be sure that I directly contacted the seller to let them know that an offer had been submitted. I might also share that the only way I'm willing to close a deal on this house that has been on the market for 3+ months is if my own realtor is involved and paid.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by redrocker » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:40 pm

jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:10 pm
How can he truly represent both parties? (Not to mention that this seller's agent, by his own admission, is long-term friends with the owner.)
That clinches it for me. You can not (and should not) expect your interests to be fairly represented by the seller's agent here.

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Re: Seller's agent not letting us use a buyer's agent

Post by michaeljc70 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:40 pm

redrocker wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:40 pm
jks1985 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:10 pm
How can he truly represent both parties? (Not to mention that this seller's agent, by his own admission, is long-term friends with the owner.)
That clinches it for me. You can not (and should not) expect your interests to be fairly represented by the seller's agent here.
I don't get it. Every agent wants to earn a commission. Which they do by concluding a deal. You need to look out for yourself. I would take any agents advice with a grain of salt. Do you go to a car dealer and ask the salesman "is this a good car?" It is like when people ask the waiter what they recommend. It is often the most expensive items on the menu. Caveat emptor. I know it varies by state, but here an attorney makes sure the contract terms are fair. The appraisal and buyer due diligence are needed to ensure other stuff is right.

Locked