How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

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ruchei
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How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by ruchei » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm

Hello, all.

I have all my retirement funds in Vanguard funds. Once I set up a desired allocation, I left them alone with an occasional rebalance. However, as I am becoming more aware of how my choices impact the world around me I decided to check the list of companies that I am investing in. As I was fearing, I am contributing to the well-being of industries I want nothing to do with, <deleted mention of specific industry/company -mighty72> So, now I need to make my choices.

Anyone else has grappled with this question? If so, what is your solution? Thank you.

mighty72
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by mighty72 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:25 pm

@ruchei, welcome to bogleheads!
All, please avoid discussion of specific companies & industries and focus on making investment choices.
Thanks!

lakpr
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by lakpr » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:30 pm


adamthesmythe
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by adamthesmythe » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:33 pm

I have chosen not to grapple with this.

You could invest in VFTSX.

By the way, if many people choose not to invest in particular industries, their stock should rise in yield, rewarding those without scruples.

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nisiprius
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by nisiprius » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:36 pm

You wish to do what used to be called socially responsible investing (SRI) and now is more often called environmental, social and governance investing (ESG).

The topic is controversial. I am somewhat in sympathy with it, used to devote a part of my portfolio to it, but don't any more.

You might begin by doing searches for "ESG funds." Vanguard offers one, the Vanguard FTSE Social Index Fund, VFTAX. It's a low-cost (ER 0.14%) index fund, and Morningstar puts it in the "large growth" category. It tracks the FTSE4GOOD index, and FTSE has a program of contacting corporations and urging them to make changes in their governance that would enable them to be included.

And you can quickly see how tricky things get, because since inception it (blue) has considerably underperformed the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (orange) and the Vanguard S&P 500 Index Fund (green).

[url=https://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fu ... A%5B%5D%7D[/url]

Image

On the other hand, if you only look at ten years, performance has been virtually identical.

In addition to the question of whether meeting their screens reduces performance, you also have to research the individual fund to see how closely their screen matches the dictates of your conscience.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

Trader Joe
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by Trader Joe » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:49 pm

ruchei wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm
Hello, all.

I have all my retirement funds in Vanguard funds. Once I set up a desired allocation, I left them alone with an occasional rebalance. However, as I am becoming more aware of how my choices impact the world around me I decided to check the list of companies that I am investing in. As I was fearing, I am contributing to the well-being of industries I want nothing to do with, <deleted mention of specific industry/company -mighty72> So, now I need to make my choices.

Anyone else has grappled with this question? If so, what is your solution? Thank you.
Welcome to the forum. No, I have never grappled with this question. I only invest in Vanguard 500 Index Fund Admiral Shares (VFIAX) and I do not care what specific companies I invest in or what specifically they do. Best of luck.

MotoTrojan
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:52 pm

adamthesmythe wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:33 pm
By the way, if many people choose not to invest in particular industries, their stock should rise in yield, rewarding those without scruples.
I don’t think price going down is a reward and I doubt the nominal dividend would persist long for new buyers.

H-Town
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by H-Town » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:57 pm

ruchei wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm
Hello, all.

I have all my retirement funds in Vanguard funds. Once I set up a desired allocation, I left them alone with an occasional rebalance. However, as I am becoming more aware of how my choices impact the world around me I decided to check the list of companies that I am investing in. As I was fearing, I am contributing to the well-being of industries I want nothing to do with, <deleted mention of specific industry/company -mighty72> So, now I need to make my choices.

Anyone else has grappled with this question? If so, what is your solution? Thank you.
Does it make a difference if you know that those companies won't receive a dime from you? You buy and sell stocks on an open market. It's different from investing your cash directly to a company or buy stock in an IPO event. If anyone could benefit from you buying an investing fund, it's the other buyer/seller you transact with (as well as your broker/funds).

Investing benefits only yourself. It's selfish by nature. If you want give money to organizations that align with your moral codes, you should consider making charitable contributions.

Ferdinand2014
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by Ferdinand2014 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:10 pm

Donate your profits to charities of your choice. That might be more direct and consequential to your desires. I personally remain agnostic to my investments. It would be nearly impossible to sift through and find companies I vs someone else would find that presents a compelling story of ESG benefit. As a physician for example, my patients benefit form plastic syringes, disposable gloves, plastic gowns and masks, enumerable drugs and chemicals that save millions of lives a year. Does that mean that Exxon Mobil which provides much of the raw material for these life saving tools should be on an ESG list? big Pharma? It's just to personal and easy to get to deep in the weeds of thought. I just buy the S&P 500 and tithe 10% of everything that I am blessed with to organizations and individuals anonymously in my community.
“You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out.“ — Warren Buffett

cashboy
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by cashboy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:20 pm

your post title itself answers your question:
How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?
by investing in those industries that you do want to invest in (i am not being a wise guy :happy ).
pick individual stocks or make your own index fund.


for example, check out an SP500 index fund.

identify the companies that you DO NOT want to invest in - remove them from the list.

concentrate on all other companies that you DO want to invest in.
check out those companies in the index fund, and the %s for each company.

then make your own index fund (of sorts) by buying the # of shares required to meet the %s. you can play with the %s and #s in any way you want. of course, all of this takes work and ongoing effort when some industry or company becomes something you do not want to invest in.

now, just to be clear, i know what you mean; we each have our own beliefs about certain things and that colors how we view the world. and as such, we each need to decide 'how far' we go with that, and consider the impact (or lack of impact) of those decisions.

sincerely, good luck trying to invest the way you would like.
FSPSX - FXAIX - FXNAX - CD - CASH - canned beans - rice

SoonerD
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by SoonerD » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:51 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:52 pm
adamthesmythe wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:33 pm
By the way, if many people choose not to invest in particular industries, their stock should rise in yield, rewarding those without scruples.
I don’t think price going down is a reward and I doubt the nominal dividend would persist long for new buyers.
If OP and her friends sell XYZ and I buy it at a lower price how are longer term dividends (or really earnings) impacted bc of my lower entry point?

I don’t see a connection. Unless I assume some cause snd effect that drives customers away? I think OP and her SRI friends are already sending their consumer dollars toward their SR companies.

tibbitts
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by tibbitts » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:51 pm

ruchei wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm
Hello, all.

I have all my retirement funds in Vanguard funds. Once I set up a desired allocation, I left them alone with an occasional rebalance. However, as I am becoming more aware of how my choices impact the world around me I decided to check the list of companies that I am investing in. As I was fearing, I am contributing to the well-being of industries I want nothing to do with, <deleted mention of specific industry/company -mighty72> So, now I need to make my choices.

Anyone else has grappled with this question? If so, what is your solution? Thank you.
I have not grappled with it and don't intend to. Like people, most corporations have positive and negative aspects to them, and have sometimes surprising and non-obvious influences on the world around them.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:54 pm

H-Town wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:57 pm
ruchei wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm
Hello, all.

I have all my retirement funds in Vanguard funds. Once I set up a desired allocation, I left them alone with an occasional rebalance. However, as I am becoming more aware of how my choices impact the world around me I decided to check the list of companies that I am investing in. As I was fearing, I am contributing to the well-being of industries I want nothing to do with, <deleted mention of specific industry/company -mighty72> So, now I need to make my choices.

Anyone else has grappled with this question? If so, what is your solution? Thank you.
Does it make a difference if you know that those companies won't receive a dime from you? You buy and sell stocks on an open market. It's different from investing your cash directly to a company or buy stock in an IPO event. If anyone could benefit from you buying an investing fund, it's the other buyer/seller you transact with (as well as your broker/funds).

Investing benefits only yourself. It's selfish by nature. If you want give money to organizations that align with your moral codes, you should consider making charitable contributions.
The companies don’t receive a dime from you but you receive dividends and capital gains from them.

If one is not willing to earn one’s salary from ethically challenged companies then it’s perfectly consistent to want to avoid investment income from them as well.

bhsince87
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by bhsince87 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:17 pm

The only way to avoid it is to invest in individual stocks of your own choosing.

But statistics say that's a losing game compared to buying the entire market.

That doesn't mean you can't play it if it helps you sleep at night.

In reality, where you spend your dollars has no impact on the success or failure of any listed company.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace." Samuel Adams

Nummerkins
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by Nummerkins » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:18 am

Just buy the whole market and then donate some of the proceeds or some of the principal to a cause that would balance out that company/industry. It's not possible to find a fund that exactly matches your preferences.

UpperNwGuy
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by UpperNwGuy » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:28 am

I invest in VTSAX and vote for candidates who would heavily regulate those industries that I consider harmful to society.

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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by cadreamer2015 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:30 am

In theory one could purchase the S&P500 or Total Stock Market and then sell short the companies one wanted to avoid. This would put you in a broad index with a net zero investment in companies to avoid. In practice this would be difficult and probably risky.

Few companies are selling equity now, so purchasing their stock through an index fund is generally not providing any resources to any given company. As a part of owner of the company, however, you are entitled to and benefit from any earnings the company achieves. So perhaps it does make sense to donate the income you earn from undesired companies. One could research the earnings per share of the companies one wants to avoid and calculate their weighting and thus contribution to the EPS of the index fund one buys. The number is likely to be quite small but of course not zero.
De gustibus non est disputandum

StandingRock
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by StandingRock » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am

Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am

StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.

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willthrill81
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:12 am

OP, the simpler and potentially more effective strategy is to not do business with firms you do not wish to.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by j0nnyg1984 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:36 am

mighty72 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:25 pm
@ruchei, welcome to bogleheads!
All, please avoid discussion of specific companies & industries and focus on making investment choices.
Thanks!
Why would you moderate the specific company and / or markets in this post? I’ve never seen this before. Seems very odd from a forum that uses “vanguard” or “fidelity” heavily rather than something mundane like low cost brokerage.

To the TS, this is a futile effort. It would be much more cost effective to own TSM or something similar and donate the appropriate amount of money to whatever causes you bleed for.

Andrew321
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by Andrew321 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:05 am

Fidelity offers ESG (environmental/social/governance) funds that address these concerns. You can read more: https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/i ... lsrc=aw.ds

Andrew

H-Town
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by H-Town » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:54 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:54 pm
H-Town wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:57 pm
ruchei wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 pm
Hello, all.

I have all my retirement funds in Vanguard funds. Once I set up a desired allocation, I left them alone with an occasional rebalance. However, as I am becoming more aware of how my choices impact the world around me I decided to check the list of companies that I am investing in. As I was fearing, I am contributing to the well-being of industries I want nothing to do with, <deleted mention of specific industry/company -mighty72> So, now I need to make my choices.

Anyone else has grappled with this question? If so, what is your solution? Thank you.
Does it make a difference if you know that those companies won't receive a dime from you? You buy and sell stocks on an open market. It's different from investing your cash directly to a company or buy stock in an IPO event. If anyone could benefit from you buying an investing fund, it's the other buyer/seller you transact with (as well as your broker/funds).

Investing benefits only yourself. It's selfish by nature. If you want give money to organizations that align with your moral codes, you should consider making charitable contributions.
The companies don’t receive a dime from you but you receive dividends and capital gains from them.

If one is not willing to earn one’s salary from ethically challenged companies then it’s perfectly consistent to want to avoid investment income from them as well.
Isn't that good? One should be able to use the dividends and do something good right? Take it to another level, if you become a majority shareholder of the company, you can enforce your moral codes on to the company. Would it be better than staying away from those companies and looking the other way? It sounds like you don't want to be part of the solutions... See how easy one can spin things around? The poster below said it best:
StandingRock wrote:Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
This is a fact.

One has to realize if his or her choices actually benefit the greater goods, rather than just making them feel good about themselves. A few examples: donating directly to National Parks so that they can use the funds to reserve our national treasures; donating to disaster recovery program so that they can help people who were being displaced by hurricane, earthquake, wildfire, etc. Unfortunately, choosing companies to invest or not to invest isn't one of them.

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asset_chaos
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by asset_chaos » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:12 pm

Even Vanguard's low cost ESG fund is noticeably more costly than their total market fund. I suggest every investor would be better off---and their favorite cause better off---by using part of the annual investment cost savings to directly donate to groups that work for whatever outcomes the investor favors. This would probably advance your favorite cause orders of magnitude more than trying to rejig your portfolio to avoid particular companies or industries, which the companies in question won't notice at all.
Regards, | | Guy

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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by CppCoder » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:35 pm

H-Town wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:57 pm
Does it make a difference if you know that those companies won't receive a dime from you? You buy and sell stocks on an open market. It's different from investing your cash directly to a company or buy stock in an IPO event. If anyone could benefit from you buying an investing fund, it's the other buyer/seller you transact with (as well as your broker/funds).
The company may not receive a dime, but you can bet that the senior management of the company will. You don't think all those C-level managers simply hold their stock grants forever, do you?

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DanMahowny
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by DanMahowny » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:43 pm

StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
Truth.
Funding secured

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willthrill81
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:04 pm

j0nnyg1984 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:36 am
It would be much more cost effective to own TSM or something similar and donate the appropriate amount of money to whatever causes you bleed for.
:thumbsup Bingo.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

jaxinvestor
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by jaxinvestor » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:07 pm

Hi,

You might check out the Sector and Specialty ETFs. investor.vanguard.com/etf/list#/etf/asset-class/month-end-returns

You may be able to construct a portfolio that aligns with your stated objective that way. This supposes that you are OK with the fact that by avoiding specific sectors/industries in your portfolio, you will not track the index (up or down)....

Demisaba
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by Demisaba » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:09 pm

You can avoid industries that you dislike by investing in sector ETFs.

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mrspock
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by mrspock » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:46 pm

StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
This. SRI strikes me as the “easy way out”, skip the hard stuff and just do SRI. Easy right? Except the world doesn’t work that way.

Change is *hard*...really hard. Become a Vegan, volunteer with a cause you believe in, bias your career in the direction of social good, the environment, freedom or justice or — wait for it — get into politics.

You know those people everyone likes to throw stones at? Ya that. They take abuse all day, are grossly underpaid and just want to make difference (there are far easier ways to make money, contrary to what most think).

Be the change you want to see, skip the SRI investing.

SoonerD
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by SoonerD » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:02 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
There is no such thing as “defining the kind of person you are”. There are 6 billion people and we can’t have “kinds of people”. Everyone is unique and ever evolving - not to be labeled bc one does like anothers choice of gasoline.

anoop
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by anoop » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:47 am

If we put that idea under a microscope, unless one is living on a mountain off the grid and growing ones own food, there is almost no way to avoid some inter-dependence with every entity that is part of the ecosystem. For example, let's say I'm vegan (for the record, I'm not) and don't want to support any animal-based industries. But what about the store where I buy groceries that benefits from selling meat? What about the check out clerk who eats meat? What about all the animals harmed by construction of factories that are making vegan products?

And so it is with investing. You can avoid, e.g. investing in company x, but can you cannot avoid every company that does business with company x, or you end up with nothing to invest in.

For the record again, I have grappled with this question a lot myself and I still have not made peace with it despite my argument above. One answer is to control what I can, i.e. avoid investing in company x, but then don't worry about the higher order effects. Kind of like a first step in the right direction. In that case it appears the only option would be to hold individual stocks of companies that meet your criteria. But be prepare to deal with FOMO.
Last edited by anoop on Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:37 am

SoonerD wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:02 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
There is no such thing as “defining the kind of person you are”. There are 6 billion people and we can’t have “kinds of people”. Everyone is unique and ever evolving - not to be labeled bc one does like anothers choice of gasoline.
We are the sum of our choices, large and small, and yes those choices are meaningful and add up. If 10% more new car buyers decided to buy electric vehicles tomorrow that would put the ICE auto industry into bankruptcy. Tell me again why individual choices don’t matter?

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mrspock
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by mrspock » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:48 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:37 am
SoonerD wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:02 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
There is no such thing as “defining the kind of person you are”. There are 6 billion people and we can’t have “kinds of people”. Everyone is unique and ever evolving - not to be labeled bc one does like anothers choice of gasoline.
We are the sum of our choices, large and small, and yes those choices are meaningful and add up. If 10% more new car buyers decided to buy electric vehicles tomorrow that would put the ICE auto industry into bankruptcy. Tell me again why individual choices don’t matter?
Because a guy named “Elon” had more to do with the electric car revolution than individual choices. He set the table, went the grocery store, cooked dinner... we came for the chow.

He exemplifies the idea of being the change you want to see.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:01 am

mrspock wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:48 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:37 am
SoonerD wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:02 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
There is no such thing as “defining the kind of person you are”. There are 6 billion people and we can’t have “kinds of people”. Everyone is unique and ever evolving - not to be labeled bc one does like anothers choice of gasoline.
We are the sum of our choices, large and small, and yes those choices are meaningful and add up. If 10% more new car buyers decided to buy electric vehicles tomorrow that would put the ICE auto industry into bankruptcy. Tell me again why individual choices don’t matter?
Because a guy named “Elon” had more to do with the electric car revolution than individual choices. He set the table, went the grocery store, cooked dinner... we came for the chow.

He exemplifies the idea of being the change you want to see.
And if no one bought Elon’s cars, then what?

Change requires leaders, sure, but also followers, lots and lots of followers.

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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by SoonerD » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:44 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:37 am
SoonerD wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:02 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
There is no such thing as “defining the kind of person you are”. There are 6 billion people and we can’t have “kinds of people”. Everyone is unique and ever evolving - not to be labeled bc one does like anothers choice of gasoline.
We are the sum of our choices, large and small, and yes those choices are meaningful and add up. If 10% more new car buyers decided to buy electric vehicles tomorrow that would put the ICE auto industry into bankruptcy. Tell me again why individual choices don’t matter?
My response was regarding your earlier comments.

...” if everyone thought this way.” “...your choices define the kind of person you are”

Everyone implies each and every person - which is a bogus argument condiition which will never be met - it’s a pointless and childlike way of thinking. The same logic my 2nd grade teacher used when she wouldn’t let me go to the bathroom outside of the pre determined bathroom break times.

And there is no such thing as “kind of person”. Know one gets to define you and me bc you chose an electric car and I think it’s disgraceful people use any cars so I chose a bicycle. Which of us is the environmentalist, amd what if I voted for al gore but he takes private jets to speak at environmental summits and enriches himself in the process. Do I earn the environment button and is it bigger or smaller than youy button

My point is I don’t accept being labeled as a x y or z KIND OF PERSON. and I reject the idea that anyone can label another person regardless of any and all choices they make.

As is the practice of humans you might come back and again misunderstand my comments while defending your position. Yet it’s indefensible to categorize people into KINDS as all 6 billion are unique and never the same tomorrow as each of us are today. We are unique and evolving so stop politicizing our choices.

StandingRock
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:54 pm

Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by StandingRock » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:43 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
You shudder at the thought of owning a few shares of Exxon and ignore the filth on the street a couple of blocks over.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:58 pm

StandingRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:43 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
You shudder at the thought of owning a few shares of Exxon and ignore the filth on the street a couple of blocks over.
Let's say Ashley Madison, a company's whose raison d'être is to break up marriages, or Juul, a company that actively markets nicotine products to teenagers, went public.

Would you be ok with your retirement being partially funded by their profits?

MotoTrojan
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by MotoTrojan » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:21 pm

I like the idea of estimating the foul dividend amount and donating to charities making these company’s lives hard.

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snackdog
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by snackdog » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:26 pm

Here are some socially responsible mutual funds.

iShares MSCI KLD 400 Social ETF (DSI)
SDRP S&P 500 Fossil Fuel Reserve (SPYX)
Vanguard FTSE Social Index (VFTSX)
SPDR SSGA Gender Diversity Index (SHE)
Eventide Gilead Fund (ETGLX)
TIAA-CREF Social Choice Bond Fund (TSBIX)

typical.investor
Posts: 1223
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by typical.investor » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:48 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:58 pm
StandingRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:43 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
You shudder at the thought of owning a few shares of Exxon and ignore the filth on the street a couple of blocks over.
Let's say Ashley Madison, a company's whose raison d'être is to break up marriages, or Juul, a company that actively markets nicotine products to teenagers, went public.

Would you be ok with your retirement being partially funded by their profits?
Sorry, I have no problem with my retirement being funded with "dirty" industries.

I presume they are all following the law and there are ways to influence what I think the laws should be (which address the environmental and moral concerns I have).

Most industries are actually offensive to me whether they pollute or take advantage of someone down the line. It never ends. They have an obligation to their shareholders you know to maximize returns.

I don't see excluding individual companies as an effective mechanism to foster a healthy society. Even if the majority of investors excluded the worst companies from our portfolios, the companies would still operate, still be profitable and probably generate better long term returns due to their low P/Es.

So yeah, I do personally prefer industries have requirements to not destroy the planet in the next generation or two, but not buying stocks isn't going to make that happen. Legislation can.

StandingRock
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:54 pm

Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by StandingRock » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:43 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:58 pm
StandingRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:43 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:03 am
StandingRock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:52 am
Your life will be less complicated when you come to terms with the fact that your choices have very little impact at all upon the world in general.
I shudder to think of the consequences for the world if everyone thought this way.

And it also misses the obvious point that your choices define the kind of person you are.
You shudder at the thought of owning a few shares of Exxon and ignore the filth on the street a couple of blocks over.
Let's say Ashley Madison, a company's whose raison d'être is to break up marriages, or Juul, a company that actively markets nicotine products to teenagers, went public.

Would you be ok with your retirement being partially funded by their profits?
If they were in a fund I held, I would be OK with it. I'm not a fund manager.

I would prefer if people stopped running around on their spouse and that kids didn't smoke or drink or mess with drugs of any kind, but I doubt any of that will ever happen.

cashboy
Posts: 139
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by cashboy » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:11 pm

ruchei (original poster)

you have received a wide range of options in this post.

what have you decided to do?
FSPSX - FXAIX - FXNAX - CD - CASH - canned beans - rice

barnaclebob
Posts: 3949
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by barnaclebob » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:39 pm

Until we transition to so Star Trek like society if you look close enough you'll find that its practically impossible to avoid evil and immorality in our current economic system. Focus on other ways to make yourself feel better.

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FelixTheCat
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by FelixTheCat » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:55 pm

How about focusing on the positive? Establish a Donor Advised Fund and make grants to charities you believe in.
Felix is a wonderful, wonderful cat.

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9-5 Suited
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by 9-5 Suited » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:59 pm

This is an expensive way to get a false sense of feeling good IMO. There are thousands of companies in TSM and you haven't heard of 95% of them. Who knows how many companies you'll be invested in with whom you disagree about something if you use any kind of broad-based, diversified mutual fund.

I used to own Philip Morris and Altria stock despite being generally anti-smoking in my personal life. I didn't contribute to a single person's choice to smoke. I bought and sold shares in a secondary market, gave no money to Philip Morris, and their products are sold because of legal customer demand for them.

barnaclebob
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by barnaclebob » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:15 pm

9-5 Suited wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:59 pm
I used to own Philip Morris and Altria stock despite being generally anti-smoking in my personal life. I didn't contribute to a single person's choice to smoke. I bought and sold shares in a secondary market, gave no money to Philip Morris, and their products are sold because of legal customer demand for them.
But by owning shares of a company you do move the supply/demand curve towards an increase in price. A higher share price benefits the company.

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9-5 Suited
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by 9-5 Suited » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:53 pm

barnaclebob wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:15 pm
9-5 Suited wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:59 pm
I used to own Philip Morris and Altria stock despite being generally anti-smoking in my personal life. I didn't contribute to a single person's choice to smoke. I bought and sold shares in a secondary market, gave no money to Philip Morris, and their products are sold because of legal customer demand for them.
But by owning shares of a company you do move the supply/demand curve towards an increase in price. A higher share price benefits the company.
I would think if a bunch of people protested the purchase of a company for social justice reasons, that wouldn't change the underlying expected profit the company will generate very much if at all. The result would be that the company would become an amazing buy for the people who don't care about one's pet cause, driving the market price back to what the underlying measures suggest it should be.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:59 pm

9-5 Suited wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:59 pm
This is an expensive way to get a false sense of feeling good IMO. There are thousands of companies in TSM and you haven't heard of 95% of them. Who knows how many companies you'll be invested in with whom you disagree about something if you use any kind of broad-based, diversified mutual fund.

I used to own Philip Morris and Altria stock despite being generally anti-smoking in my personal life. I didn't contribute to a single person's choice to smoke. I bought and sold shares in a secondary market, gave no money to Philip Morris, and their products are sold because of legal customer demand for them.
Again, this completely ignores your increase in wealth directly attributable to tobacco products.

H-Town
Posts: 2055
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Re: How to avoid industries I do not want to invest in?

Post by H-Town » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:16 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:59 pm
9-5 Suited wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:59 pm
This is an expensive way to get a false sense of feeling good IMO. There are thousands of companies in TSM and you haven't heard of 95% of them. Who knows how many companies you'll be invested in with whom you disagree about something if you use any kind of broad-based, diversified mutual fund.

I used to own Philip Morris and Altria stock despite being generally anti-smoking in my personal life. I didn't contribute to a single person's choice to smoke. I bought and sold shares in a secondary market, gave no money to Philip Morris, and their products are sold because of legal customer demand for them.
Again, this completely ignores your increase in wealth directly attributable to tobacco products.
... Where do I donate to those tobacco companies? ...

For every left side, there is a right side. If you don't like tobacco, someone else does. If you don't like oil companies, someone else does. You may feel good helping your cause and someone else would feel good doing the exact opposite. It's life. The sooner you realize that, the less complicated your life would be.

Those companies are supposed to do everything they can, within the existing law, to maximize the profit and wealth of the shareholders.

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