SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

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ctuser1
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SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

Background:
We have an autistic child (younger one), 8 and a typical one (older child), 10.
Me: 40. DW: 38.
I am currently in the research phase of "estate planning", especially how to fund the special needs for the younger child beyond whatever public assistance may be available.

Total NW right now - between $700k-$800k. Most of my assets are currently in various types of tax sheltered accounts. Only ~$100k of the total NW is in taxable accounts. Between me and DW's 401k/Roth/HSA, we sock away > $50k/year. Another $25k was going to taxable account (that is how we got the $100k in taxable after DW started working 3 years ago) - but will now be diverted to 529 plans for the older child starting this year.

If one of us live into our 90's - most of the tax advantaged money will be converted to taxable due to RMDs. If we both die, say, in our 70's, then a significant amount of money will likely be left in tax advantaged accounts?My thought was to simply fund an SSNT for the younger child with half of the leftover money, and leave the other half for the benefit of the older one.

I hope to work long enough, and live frugally enough, to make sure there is a significant amount of money left over.

My online research on this topic, however, turned up several trade-offs associated with funding an SNT with any form of IRA (http://www.margolis.com/our-blog/specia ... t-benefits). You incur large income tax bills due to huge RMD's, or lose out on medicaid clawback or both.

Question 1:
Are these issues insurmountable? Is there a way to fund SNT with IRA's in a tax efficient manner? And yet have any remaining funds be disbursed for the benefits of successors while avoiding medicaid clawback?

Is there any alternative structure to SNT/SSNT? Something where we fund for special needs while retaining the tax-free growth aspects of Roth/529 etc?

Question/Option 2.
How about bypassing SNT altogether and just set up a regular trust with IRA money that has the older child as the primary beneficiary. IRA has RMD based on the older child's age, and this trust just periodically funds an ABLE account for the younger chile?

Question/Option 3.
How about superfunding 529, and continue funding it as long as possible, as much as possible - for another family member, perhaps the older child. This would be to leave as much money as possible in the 529 after her education. The older child needs to roll over a certain amount every year to an ABLE account (let's assume she will cooperate even after we, the parents, are dead and gone).

Basically, my question boils down to a simple one - with the new ABLE accounts, why do you needs SSNT/SNT anyway?
gtg970g
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by gtg970g »

I'm interested in the replies of others as we have a 4 y/o with significant delays who will be in our care for the duration of his life. In a hypothetically perfect world where your other child would fulfill your wishes perfectly I suppose there would be no need for a SNT. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that a sibling (or other relative) will do what is best for the child with special needs. Even if your child is 100% reliable imagine him/her going through a divorce and loosing half of the funds you had intended to set aside for his/her sibling. There is also a possibility that the independent child/relative passes before the dependent child.

Per Question 2: I'm interested in learning more about the taxation of IRA/401k distributions within a trust. My interpretation is that they are subject to higher taxes than an individual (non dependent) would be but this is something I'm not sure about.

Per Question 3: We are also funding a 529 for both children although we do not expect our youngest to attend college. This enables us to get a state tax deduction and we will roll over into an ABLE account at a later date. We could fund an ABLE account from the start but the traditional 529 in our state has lower fees and more/better options.
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ctuser1
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

gtg970g wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:08 am I'm interested in learning more about the taxation of IRA/401k distributions within a trust. My interpretation is that they are subject to higher taxes than an individual (non dependent) would be but this is something I'm not sure about.
Usually, the IRA would be subject to an accelerated withdrawal requirements - within 5 years.
e.g. if you leave $1Million IRA and name a trust as beneficiary - there will be an RMD of $200k/year for 5 years.

Trusts also have a significantly more compressed income tax tiers - resulting in a much higher tax rate on this $200k RMD than an individual would have paid.

There are apparently ways to set up the trust as a disregarded entity and do the RMD based on the life expectancy of the primary beneficiary of the trust. However, what I read online (i.e. no professional advice FWIW) tells me that is not a great idea for an SNT. If you set up the trust that way for SNT - any assets left over after the death of the beneficiary would now be subject to medicaid clawback - i.e. the state will try to retrieve everything they spent on the beneficiary for medicaid from the trust assets.

Also, I hear you about the shortcomings of relying on the older sibling. At this point, I'm in the research phase and all these are just research into crazy ideas. The eventual setup is likely to be much more conventional.
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ctuser1
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

Reviving an old thread because I have dug up new information and strategies in my research that is related to the original topic.

It seems that the new ABLE accounts are fantastic when they are used in conjunction with SNT's.

ABLE Accounts:
1. In most states, are subject to medicaid clawback. There are a small number of exceptions.
2. Have a max contribution limit of $15k/year.
3. Will be subject to SSI asset limits if the balance exceeds $100k.
4. Unlike SNT, they *can* pay for housing expenses without being subject to SSI reduction. (***Huge positive***)
5. My state (CT) does not yet offer an ABLE account. However, there are other states that allow non-resident's to enroll. The MA/VA/NJ/IL plans look promising. I think we will pick one of these.

This seems to open up some strategies for us.

Our house will be just about paid off as my younger daughter (autistic, disabled) turns 18. It's currently worth about $350k (per Zillow) if that matters!

We will title this house over to a Special Needs Trust. The idea is to have the SNT fully own a house DD will live in till she is alive - so that "housing expense" can be minimized - while providing for a reasonably good accommodation. If there is a mortgage on the house, then that counts as "housing expense" - and you get into "ISM" (In-kind Support and Maintenance) issues related to that.

The housing expenses (maintenance, utilities, taxes etc) will be paid for by an ABLE account. We will fund the ABLE account ourselves ($15k/year) from our after-tax money.

Since the house is owned by the SNT, other people living with DD should pay rent into this SNT. The mortgage I am paying right now should go towards this - building up the after-tax cash balance in the SNT. We will also redirect some other part of our current after-tax saving (@$25k-$30k/year after-tax, outside of 401k/Roth etc) with an aim to build up a cash balance of approximately $1MM in the SNT, funded entirely from after-tax money and not IRA.

The reason I think $1MM is a good target is because $500k out of that should support a $15k yearly contribution to the ABLE account (@3% SWR), and the other $500k is the buffer in case we need to move and buy a bigger house.

The ABLE account itself will not retain a large balance. It will just hold any leftover money from the $15k/year contribution + any overflow from the SSI money. It seems we can commingle the "first party" money (SSI, owned by DD) and "third party" money (contribution from us/SNT) in an ABLE account.

Any big holes anyone can poke in these (amateurish?) ideas and strategies I am cooking up? Needless to say, I will run all of my "harebrained ideas" (as DW calls them :annoyed ) through a professional. At this point, I am just doing as much research as possible so that I can come up with many such "harebrained ideas" to throw at the estate planning professional(s) when we do engage them in future!!
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by terran »

As a sibling of a disabled person, I thank you on the part of your older child for putting such careful thought and planning into this. Through that same lens I would ask that you do as much as you can not put additional burdens on your older child by, for example, giving money that's "earmarked" for your disabled child.

One potential issue I've seen is leaving the house to the SNT. Don't quote me on this, but I think if your disabled child continues to live in a house owned by the trust that have the same effect on reduction of benefits as the trust paying for any other housing. You'd actually be better off leaving the house to your disabled child directly which would, I believe, result in a reduction of benefits in the month of inheritance, but not thereafter as benefit recipients can own their home without a reduction of benefits. Of course, this could subject the house to forfeiture to the state for medicaid repayment.

Even leaving your child the house could cause issues in that there are still property taxes, maintenance and utilities to be paid, which the ABLE account could pay, but the trust couldn't.

If you leave enough, all this might not matter as long as you're comfortable with the reduction of SSI as long as health insurance is provided. In that case the trust or anyone else can pay for housing.

Something I don't know enough about is disabled child social security. I think once you retire your child can switch from SSI/medicaid to SSDI/medicare on your record which I think would mean all the asset and income limits go away, and I'm not sure if any of this matters. I don't know if that's true, and I don't know what happens when you die. You'll need to look into that. If you find answers, please report back.
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ctuser1
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

terran wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:35 am Something I don't know enough about is disabled child social security. I think once you retire your child can switch from SSI/medicaid to SSDI/medicare on your record which I think would mean all the asset and income limits go away, and I'm not sure if any of this matters. I don't know if that's true, and I don't know what happens when you die. You'll need to look into that. If you find answers, please report back.
I don't know everything about it either - but have some knowledge/information from research I did before.

What you are referring to is called SSDI-DAC. DAC stands for "Disabled Adult Child".
SSA Link - https://www.ssa.gov/planners/disability ... ml#anchor7

The relevant info I found for our situation are as follows:
1. The "child", if eligible, will be entitled to 50% of the Social Security PIA of a living parent, or 75% of the PIA of a deceased parent.
2. The "child" can claim this benefit once one of the parents claim social security. This means one of us (most likely DW) will claim Social security early, at 62 - so that DD can claim.
3. This SSDI "income" will normally make DD ineligible for Medicaid. This is a problem for the first 2 years of SSDI-DAC, when she is not yet eligible for Medicare. This seems like a grey area that varies state by state. Some states have specific provisions to address this specific situation. I am not sure what happens in the state I live in (CT).
4. Once DD is eligible for SSDI-DAC and Medicare, I think the asset/income limits go away for Health insurance and SSDI. However, I have been told (by disability advocates) there are other local/community resources that may still be available based on SSI eligibility and hence there are still some location-dependent advantages to using SSNT etc. I don't know much more about this - will need to do much more research.
terran wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:35 am One potential issue I've seen is leaving the house to the SNT. Don't quote me on this, but I think if your disabled child continues to live in a house owned by the trust that have the same effect on reduction of benefits as the trust paying for any other housing. You'd actually be better off leaving the house to your disabled child directly which would, I believe, result in a reduction of benefits in the month of inheritance, but not thereafter as benefit recipients can own their home without a reduction of benefits. Of course, this could subject the house to forfeiture to the state for medicaid repayment.
It would be a bummer if an SNT owned housing causes any asset/income limits to be tripped up. I was hoping a fully paid for house would not have those issues - but obviously I need to do more research.

And you are right that we can use the SSI money and ABLE account money to pay for the rest of the housing expenses (taxes, maintenance etc).
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Michael Patrick
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by Michael Patrick »

Just when I thought I had it all figured out... but I guess it is better to know now.

My younger daughter has autism. We were planning on splitting our estate 50/50 between my two daughters, with younger daughter's share going into a special needs trust. But presumably at least some of the inheritance would be from whatever remains in our IRAs after the last surviving spouse dies. I was looking at the trusts offered by Wispact, but since Wispact would potentially retain some or all of the balance in the trust after my daughter passes, I'm guessing that complicates the look-through for the oldest beneficiary.
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ctuser1
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

Michael Patrick wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:16 pm Just when I thought I had it all figured out... but I guess it is better to know now.

My younger daughter has autism. We were planning on splitting our estate 50/50 between my two daughters, with younger daughter's share going into a special needs trust. But presumably at least some of the inheritance would be from whatever remains in our IRAs after the last surviving spouse dies. I was looking at the trusts offered by Wispact, but since Wispact would potentially retain some or all of the balance in the trust after my daughter passes, I'm guessing that complicates the look-through for the oldest beneficiary.
Perhaps you can direct the Roth IRAs to the SSNT, and send the non-Roth portion to the older daughter?

If you don't have enough in Roth, it may be a good idea to do a Roth rollover before putting it on to the SSNT. You probably don't want a normal IRA/401k to go to a trust. They will need to pay very high taxes as trusts have compressed tax schedule + IRAs will have a high RMD. You will pay less in taxes if you did the rollover instead!!

For the older daughter - perhaps you can just make her a contingent beneficiary of your (and your spouses's) IRAs. You probably don't need a trust if all money going to her are in IRA's.
terran
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by terran »

Thanks for the SSDI-DAC info.
ctuser1 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:03 pm
terran wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:35 am One potential issue I've seen is leaving the house to the SNT. Don't quote me on this, but I think if your disabled child continues to live in a house owned by the trust that have the same effect on reduction of benefits as the trust paying for any other housing. You'd actually be better off leaving the house to your disabled child directly which would, I believe, result in a reduction of benefits in the month of inheritance, but not thereafter as benefit recipients can own their home without a reduction of benefits. Of course, this could subject the house to forfeiture to the state for medicaid repayment.
It would be a bummer if an SNT owned housing causes any asset/income limits to be tripped up. I was hoping a fully paid for house would not have those issues - but obviously I need to do more research.

And you are right that we can use the SSI money and ABLE account money to pay for the rest of the housing expenses (taxes, maintenance etc).
It's not the asset/income limits as such, except in as much as income in the form of housing/food from any source (except official govt programs) is income which reduces SSI by an amount equal to the value of support or 1/3rd of the SSI (whichever is less). If the amount of support is high enough and sustainable this can still make sense since it only results in a $771/3 = $257/month reduction. If your state provides a supplemental payment (which I think CT does) then you might get a reduction from that too.
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Michael Patrick
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by Michael Patrick »

ctuser1 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:25 pm
Perhaps you can direct the Roth IRAs to the SSNT, and send the non-Roth portion to the older daughter?

If you don't have enough in Roth, it may be a good idea to do a Roth rollover before putting it on to the SSNT. You probably don't want a normal IRA/401k to go to a trust. They will need to pay very high taxes as trusts have compressed tax schedule + IRAs will have a high RMD. You will pay less in taxes if you did the rollover instead!!

For the older daughter - perhaps you can just make her a contingent beneficiary of your (and your spouses's) IRAs. You probably don't need a trust if all money going to her are in IRA's.
Yeah, the more I think about it one scenario could be that older daughter gets the trad IRAs and younger daughter gets the Roth stuff plus the proceeds of the sale of our house. Unless we (or one of us) wind up living longer than expected, that should mean older daughter's share is slightly bigger. I'm ok with that, since she will be responsible for coordinating care for younger daughter. We could include a proviso that ensured the split was at least 50/50 if the traditional IRAs wind up being less than the value of the Roth + house.
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by Youndo »

As a side note, you may also want to look at conservatorship for your younger child, if you haven’t already.
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Michael Patrick
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by Michael Patrick »

Youndo wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm As a side note, you may also want to look at conservatorship for your younger child, if you haven’t already.
Argh, yet one more thing to think about... Based on the info in this publication from the WI Dept. of Health Services, it looks like guardianship would be more appropriate in our case.
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ctuser1
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

Youndo wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm As a side note, you may also want to look at conservatorship for your younger child, if you haven’t already.
I did some looking around, and this seems a rather complicated topic.

In my state, you can be either a guardian (and that too either a "plenary guardian" or a "limited guardian"), or a conservator. Each of these have different levels of ability to supervise the autistic child's affairs once she turns 18. All of these also involve judicial processes - which sounds a little scary.

For CT, some useful links I dug up:
http://www.ctprobate.gov/Documents/User ... bility.pdf
http://www.ctprobate.gov/Pages/Conservators.aspx

Obviously, everything seems to be different if we ever move to another state - NYS/NJ/MA etc. Each state seem to have their own process!!

We will need to spend a lot more thought/effort on this.
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Michael Patrick
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by Michael Patrick »

ctuser1 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:55 am We will need to spend a lot more thought/effort on this.
Yes, as will we.
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by bsteiner »

The trust for the child with special needs is for the most part the same as the trust for the child without special needs. The principal difference is that, depending on the nature of the child's disability, he/she will likely have a lesser degree of control, or no control at all, over his/her trust.

A trust can stretch IRA distributions over the life expectancy of the oldest beneficiary of the trust. See my article on this in the March 2004 issue of BNA Tax Management's Estates, Gifts & Trusts Journal: https://www.kkwc.com/wp-content/uploads ... 132954.pdf.

Trusts reach the top (37%) bracket at $12,750 , whereas individuals don't until $510,300 (single) or $612,350 (joint). In the case of a traditional IRA, ignoring any basis, all of the distributions from the IRA are taxable. So the trustees usually have to choose between accumulating the IRA distributions in the trust to maintain the asset protection, at the cost of higher income taxes, or paying them out to save income taxes at the cost of giving up asset protection.

In this case the tradeoff isn't that great. Since the IRA isn't yet that large, and since the children are young (so that the distributions can be spread out over many years), the income tax cost of accumulating the distributions isn't that great.

One solution is Roth conversions. The trust will receive the distributions from the Roth IRA tax-free.

Another solution is to allocate more of the traditional IRA to the trust for the child with special needs, and more of the other assets to the trust for the other child. That requires either the effort to create a suitable formula or more frequent monitoring.
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ctuser1
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

Thank you bsteiner for the incredibly informative journal article (a lot for me to chew through) and your professional opinion on this matter.
bsteiner wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:34 pm The trust for the child with special needs is for the most part the same as the trust for the child without special needs. The principal difference is that, depending on the nature of the child's disability, he/she will likely have a lesser degree of control, or no control at all, over his/her trust.

A trust can stretch IRA distributions over the life expectancy of the oldest beneficiary of the trust. See my article on this in the March 2004 issue of BNA Tax Management's Estates, Gifts & Trusts Journal: https://www.kkwc.com/wp-content/uploads ... 132954.pdf.

Trusts reach the top (37%) bracket at $12,750 , whereas individuals don't until $510,300 (single) or $612,350 (joint). In the case of a traditional IRA, ignoring any basis, all of the distributions from the IRA are taxable. So the trustees usually have to choose between accumulating the IRA distributions in the trust to maintain the asset protection, at the cost of higher income taxes, or paying them out to save income taxes at the cost of giving up asset protection.

In this case the tradeoff isn't that great. Since the IRA isn't yet that large, and since the children are young (so that the distributions can be spread out over many years), the income tax cost of accumulating the distributions isn't that great.

One solution is Roth conversions. The trust will receive the distributions from the Roth IRA tax-free.

Another solution is to allocate more of the traditional IRA to the trust for the child with special needs, and more of the other assets to the trust for the other child. That requires either the effort to create a suitable formula or more frequent monitoring.
I have one more related question.

The SNT I am envisioning will likely have significant (likely hundreds of thousands of $$, not millions) assets left over even after the special needs child's death many years down, if everything goes according to plan. An example would likely be a fully paid for house in our case.

We would likely want this (and any other) asset to be used to set up something like an education fund, or something else for the benefit of the descendants.

A third party SNT can shelter any remaining funds from the medicaid "payback". Is this impacted in any way if the trust is primarily funded with retirement assets instead of unencumbered after-tax money?
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by bsteiner »

ctuser1 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:15 am Thank you bsteiner for the incredibly informative journal article (a lot for me to chew through) and your professional opinion on this matter.
bsteiner wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:34 pm The trust for the child with special needs is for the most part the same as the trust for the child without special needs. The principal difference is that, depending on the nature of the child's disability, he/she will likely have a lesser degree of control, or no control at all, over his/her trust.

A trust can stretch IRA distributions over the life expectancy of the oldest beneficiary of the trust. See my article on this in the March 2004 issue of BNA Tax Management's Estates, Gifts & Trusts Journal: https://www.kkwc.com/wp-content/uploads ... 132954.pdf.

Trusts reach the top (37%) bracket at $12,750 , whereas individuals don't until $510,300 (single) or $612,350 (joint). In the case of a traditional IRA, ignoring any basis, all of the distributions from the IRA are taxable. So the trustees usually have to choose between accumulating the IRA distributions in the trust to maintain the asset protection, at the cost of higher income taxes, or paying them out to save income taxes at the cost of giving up asset protection.

In this case the tradeoff isn't that great. Since the IRA isn't yet that large, and since the children are young (so that the distributions can be spread out over many years), the income tax cost of accumulating the distributions isn't that great.

One solution is Roth conversions. The trust will receive the distributions from the Roth IRA tax-free.

Another solution is to allocate more of the traditional IRA to the trust for the child with special needs, and more of the other assets to the trust for the other child. That requires either the effort to create a suitable formula or more frequent monitoring.
I have one more related question.

The SNT I am envisioning will likely have significant (likely hundreds of thousands of $$, not millions) assets left over even after the special needs child's death many years down, if everything goes according to plan. An example would likely be a fully paid for house in our case.

We would likely want this (and any other) asset to be used to set up something like an education fund, or something else for the benefit of the descendants.

A third party SNT can shelter any remaining funds from the medicaid "payback". Is this impacted in any way if the trust is primarily funded with retirement assets instead of unencumbered after-tax money?
Most likely upon the child's death, if he/she doesn't exercise his/her power of appointment (or if he/she doesn't have a power of appointment), the balance of the trust would go in further trust for his/her issue, or if none then it would be added to your other child's trust (or if the other child died first, then it would go in further trust for the other child's issue).

Since the other child is a possible beneficiary, and is older, the stretch would be limited to the other child's life expectancy. But since they're close in age it's not meaningful.
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ctuser1
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Re: SNT (special needs trust) vs. Periodically funding ABLE with another source (regular trust? 529?)

Post by ctuser1 »

Thank you!

I really appreciate your inputs bsteiner.
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