Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri May 17, 2019 1:31 pm

jrbdmb wrote:But if you look at real data (US News Salary information for graduates) Computer Engineering majors average $80,600 at UM and $78,500 at Brown. (No info available for CIS at Brown, so I couldn't compare that.)
Since it’s quite possible that the CS grad at Brown earns more than the average grad at Brown, it’s hard to compare.

I’m reminded of a private high school English teacher, a recent Harvard grad. This teacher made less than a grad from Fairleigh Dickinson who taught at a public school. Why? Because he could, and appreciated the student engagement more than the income. Should we rank Fairleigh Dickinson above Harvard? Average salaries are silly if one extrapolates too much meaning, ignoring factors such as “how many financially advantaged graduates pursue careers without regard to income?”
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by beyou » Fri May 17, 2019 1:34 pm

psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:09 pm
beyou wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Also note that as you make college friends, many will stay in the region after college at a state school, but friends at Brown would scatter everywhere. Given you may not stay in Michigan nor Rhode Island, this may not matter much in terms of a decision, but your friends will stick together post college more at a state school than at a nationally known college like Brown.
Rhode Island is a small state, physically and population-wise, so it's no surprise that Brown grads would heavily settle out of state. Michigan is a bigger state in both senses.

My guess is that Brown grads end up heavily in New England and the upper Mid-Atlantic (NYC area down through Philly). My guess is that, of the Michigan grads who end up outside of Michigan, there's perhaps a broader dispersal, both throughout the Midwest and to the coasts.
Being a bit literal. I would guess almost NONE of Brown grads settle down in RI.
Yes I meant in the AREA, mostly Boston/NY corridor.
Also since Brown attracts students from far away, many are not attached to the area, and consider going back to their home,
or are already of the personality to move wherever the best opportunities await them (college selection, then later job selection).
I know in my state, MANY state school grads stay in our state, the state gov even gives you a scholarship that would be taken back if you leave the state.

ModifiedDuration
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by ModifiedDuration » Fri May 17, 2019 1:42 pm

beyou wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:34 pm
psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:09 pm
beyou wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Also note that as you make college friends, many will stay in the region after college at a state school, but friends at Brown would scatter everywhere. Given you may not stay in Michigan nor Rhode Island, this may not matter much in terms of a decision, but your friends will stick together post college more at a state school than at a nationally known college like Brown.
Rhode Island is a small state, physically and population-wise, so it's no surprise that Brown grads would heavily settle out of state. Michigan is a bigger state in both senses.

My guess is that Brown grads end up heavily in New England and the upper Mid-Atlantic (NYC area down through Philly). My guess is that, of the Michigan grads who end up outside of Michigan, there's perhaps a broader dispersal, both throughout the Midwest and to the coasts.
Being a bit literal. I would guess almost NONE of Brown grads settle down in RI.
Yes I meant in the AREA, mostly Boston/NY corridor.
Also since Brown attracts students from far away, many are not attached to the area, and consider going back to their home,
or are already of the personality to move wherever the best opportunities await them (college selection, then later job selection).
I know in my state, MANY state school grads stay in our state, the state gov even gives you a scholarship that would be taken back if you leave the state.
Actually, it looks like the most common cities for employed Brown graduates to end up are, in order, New York, Boston, and Providence:

https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/suppo ... y-location

Yukon
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Yukon » Fri May 17, 2019 1:42 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:38 pm
WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:33 pm
You have to search within yourself to see if you are open to humiliation at the hands of The Ohio State University every November.
Good point but at least at both Brown and UM one won't be distracted by following football.
You both are going to have to use shorter sentences if you want the banter to be understood by Xichigan grads. Go Bucks.
Last edited by Yukon on Fri May 17, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by anothermom » Fri May 17, 2019 1:43 pm

Following :happy

investingdad
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by investingdad » Fri May 17, 2019 1:54 pm

Yukon wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:42 pm
bengal22 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:38 pm
WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:33 pm
You have to search within yourself to see if you are open to humiliation at the hands of The Ohio State University every November.
Good point but at least at both Brown and UM one won't be distracted by following football.
You both are going to have to use shorter sentences if you want the banter to be understand by Xichigan grads. Go Bucks.
Somebody get the popcorn and I'll bring the :sharebeer

Ok...please proceed with the UM OSU banter, I'm sure the other B10 grads will enjoy it.

Bacchus01
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Bacchus01 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:03 pm

Pick Michigan

Better yet, pick Wisconsin.

Hug401k
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Hug401k » Fri May 17, 2019 3:23 pm

psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:11 pm
School prestige is very much a regional thing, and, IMO, falls away much faster outside of the home region for smaller schools.

Michigan's center of "high prestige" is the Midwest, but it's big enough that it's well known across the country. The prestige of its sports programs perhaps shouldn't matter for academic prestige, but perhaps does, in a small way (at least among those only casually following matters of academic prestige).

Brown is, of course, Ivy League, and while "Ivy League" has broad national (and international) recognition, I'm not so sure that Brown itself does. I'm a midwesterner and have had little (actually, none that I can clearly remember) contact with Brown graduates. To me, the "Brown" label says lower tier Ivy, spoiled rich kid/scion of the famous (JFK Junior, assorted Hollywood-types, etc.), and maybe a crunchy granola flavor of Ivy-lite.

Anecdote, anecdata, etc. Take it with a grain of salt...
Funny, being a New Englander for 46 years, I was thinking "Oh, is Michigan a good school? Is that Michigan State or U Michigan? Which one did Tom Brady go to again?" So there you have it. Very regional. Any guess where he would prefer to settle? Of course, my immediate reaction was Brown (though if he enjoyed the whole big school/big athletics/fraternity scene, it might be different) Brown is an easy commuter rail train ride from Boston, which is a hub for many financial (including Fidelity) and tech companies. I don't run across to many U Michigan grads on the east coast (which is ironic since my parents both graduated from other Michigan schools but I was raised in New England thanks to the Navy).
Last edited by Hug401k on Fri May 17, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by kenoryan » Fri May 17, 2019 3:26 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:38 pm
WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:33 pm
You have to search within yourself to see if you are open to humiliation at the hands of The Ohio State University every November.
Good point but at least at both Brown and UM one won't be distracted by following football.
https://apnews.com/8100ceaf06c44dc2a85bea4c5daff04f

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LiveSimple
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by LiveSimple » Fri May 17, 2019 3:38 pm

psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm
Could someone educate me on what the “lower Ivy League” schools are?
Brown, Cornell, Penn (outside of Business) and Dartmouth.
Interesting to know where Columbia is in this list.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by randomguy » Fri May 17, 2019 3:44 pm

LiveSimple wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:38 pm
psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm
Could someone educate me on what the “lower Ivy League” schools are?
Brown, Cornell, Penn (outside of Business) and Dartmouth.
Interesting to know where Columbia is in this list.
It is would be part of the bottom but everyone forgets about it. HYP and the rest😀.

Or you could look at individual programs where some schools do better than others.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by GT99 » Fri May 17, 2019 3:51 pm

jrbdmb wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm

But if you look at real data (US News Salary information for graduates) Computer Engineering majors average $80,600 at UM and $78,500 at Brown. (No info available for CIS at Brown, so I couldn't compare that.)
Computer Engineering and Computer Science are not the same thing.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by psteinx » Fri May 17, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: College Prestige

Those of us with appropriately aged kids who will or have targeted highly selective colleges likely have a pretty good handle on the top 20, and perhaps the top 50 or so, of USNWR and/or similar rankings.

And probably many recruiters have a similarly good handle on things.

But moving outside of that sphere, I think folks' knowledge of the relative rankings (subjective, of course) is likely much shakier, and especially for schools that are:

* Small
* Far away
* Outside of the top 5-10 or so

Almost everyone in the US with a 4 year degree knows that Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and MIT are prestige schools - hard to get into and most graduates from those places are whip-smart. And "Ivy League" has a great brand, even if many may be fuzzy on which schools are in/not in it (especially at the lower tiers). But beyond that, the brand recognition of a school (academic prestige, assumed intelligence and competence of its graduates) likely falls off pretty quickly.

In particular, I think this hurts small, somewhat obscure liberal arts colleges, especially the cluster of them on the East Coast. They may be very hard to get into and deliver a great education, but how many folks outside of the Northeast easily recognize, and differentiate, among Williams, Wellseley (sp?), and Wesleyan?

How important this brand recognition is is hard to say. I presume that there are plenty of recruiters of good companies that visit these schools, and there's probably minimal handicap, compared to a better known but similarly rigorous school in the same region for a fresh graduate. But 5-10 years out, or if you end up across the country for some reason, and you're bumping into someone less on top of this stuff?

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by GT99 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:00 pm

For context, I have no connection to either of these schools - I've lived my adult life in the southeastern US. I did go to a top tier engineering school, and most of my career has been in software and data analytics.

Seems like a lot of folks are underrating Michigan here. It's a great school - top 30 overall nationally by most rankings. And it's CS degree seems to be ranked higher than Brown by most rankings.
I've been in the technical world for 20 years. If I saw one resume with Michigan and another with Brown, I wouldn't consider it a differentiator. But there are not many folks in the Technology world from Brown (I've never met one, and I don't think I've ever even seen Brown on a resume). I've known lots of Michigan folks. The idea that Michigan doesn't have a good national reputation is odd to me. In the Tech world, I think it's got a better national reputation than Brown.

All that said, there's not a wrong choice here. Both are great schools. Heck, in thinking of which I personally would choose, I'm torn. If the OP's son's gut is saying one over the other (sounds like he's saying Brown), I'd go with that one.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by TLo » Fri May 17, 2019 4:28 pm

Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I couldn't agree more with those who have said that it depend son your son's "fit" with the school, the students, the cities. I'm a Brown grad, undergrad major in Mathematical Economics, which I didn't even really know existed as a major when I applied there. I knew I wanted to pursue a career in "business" with an analytical focus, and I kind of tumbled into that. My choice in schools came down to Brown, Harvard, and UMass (which has a well-respected undergrad business school). While there are some vague similarities between schools, they really couldn't be more different in "actual look and feel" when you walk around, talk to students, audit some classes, spend a long weekend. I picked the one that "fit" me best, and I was happy with the choice. Michigan and Brown present two high-quality educational choices that will present two completely different life experiences. Your son should choose the one that fits him best, and the contrast should make it particularly easy to know which one that is.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri May 17, 2019 4:34 pm

TLo, welcome to the forum. You are evidence that fit outweighs ranking.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Starfish » Fri May 17, 2019 5:38 pm

sidartvader wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:58 pm
Please see note from my son regarding his college choices and share your thoughts (once more). This is pursuant to the previous post (link below), which was pivotal in helping him make his choice at that time. He was waitlisted at Brown at the time.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=278725

"A while back I was deciding between UC Berkeley and UMich and this forum provided solid advice as to the job prospects, atmosphere, and merits of both schools. I ended up deciding on going to UMich for CS and a potential minor in Business (there is a selective application process). However, I was recently offered admission to Brown University for a joint Computer Science and Economics major, which is more interesting to me than a CS major and business minor. Additionally, Brown as a school is more prestigious than UMich and sends its students to top tech/finance companies at a higher frequency (according to their respective career services websites) than does Michigan. The cost differential between the two schools is around $20,000 over four years which I’d be taking as loans. Seeing as my future career goals would be something in either finance or tech, does anyone have an opinion as to how my options stack up? Note that I will not actually be able to visit Brown while school is in session until the fall due to how late waitlist decisions roll out. Thank you!"
If he goes towards engineering, UMich.
If he goes towards finance, probably Brown.

I think in both cases the difference is too small to matter from the professional point of view.

jrbdmb
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by jrbdmb » Fri May 17, 2019 5:58 pm

staythecourse wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:18 pm
beyou wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Once you have a CS degree from a top tier school, and both of these are, then the rest is all you.
Interesting to know if there is ANY field that this does not apply. Like any other job interview I remember for applying for residencies that once you hit some arbitrary cut off metrics the rest if up to you to get the actual job.

As long as you are swimming in the same pool as your goals the rest of getting picked from that pool is based on your individual performance.

Good luck.
Absolutely. Back in the old days when my son was considering a Business degree (he has changed his mind twice since then) I read articles, blog posts, and discussion forums. My son wasn't particularly interested in Finance, but it became clear that for high profile jobs on Wall Street a HYPSC degree was all but required. I looked into one eastern state school in particular that touted their success placing grads on Wall Street, but reddit discussions said that these grads definitely got the "back room" jobs compared to the HYPSC grads.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by TheNightsToCome » Fri May 17, 2019 6:51 pm

WhyNotUs wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:33 pm
You have to search within yourself to see if you are open to humiliation at the hands of The Ohio State University every November.
:sharebeer

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Rick Ferri » Fri May 17, 2019 6:55 pm

RI has better beaches, and it's all about the beach.

:sharebeer
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by steadyhand » Fri May 17, 2019 7:08 pm

If interested in graduate school later, UM will likely be the better choice for CS as you may get better research experience while a UG student there.

If you want a more generalized degree and will likely never go to graduate school Brown is likely better.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by TheNightsToCome » Fri May 17, 2019 8:30 pm

LiveSimple wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:38 pm
psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm
Could someone educate me on what the “lower Ivy League” schools are?
Brown, Cornell, Penn (outside of Business) and Dartmouth.
Interesting to know where Columbia is in this list.
Apparently tied with Yale for #3.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-c ... ue-schools

stochastic
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by stochastic » Fri May 17, 2019 10:00 pm

Both are great options. Overall as people have said Brown probably has more prestige although within computer science I think Michigan is a strong enough brand.

I've taught at Berkeley and Princeton. From what I've observed the students get more opportunities at Princeton. Smaller classes that you can almost always get into, many more opportunities to do research with faculty (it's essentially compulsory- not all the students want it though), more programs and internships over the summer. There's also more support for students if things aren't going well. One thing I've noticed at Princeton is that each summer every student I talk to will have an internship, or be working in a lab or going on a study abroad trip or something like that. Not that it isn't possible to do all those things at a top public school like Michigan but I think it takes a much more proactive student as the resources are spread over a much bigger student body. If Brown is similar then I think that environment could be worth the extra 20k.

At a research level I think Michigan if stronger in a lot of STEM fields and it were for a PhD I'd most likely suggest Michigan.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by quantAndHold » Fri May 17, 2019 10:04 pm

I did hiring at a FAANG. I remember hiring people from Michigan. I don’t remember hiring anyone from Brown, but it may have been because it’s a smaller school. From a career perspective, if he wants tech, I don’t think it matters which he chooses.

I would still pick Brown though, unless he wants to stay in the Midwest after graduation. There’s a lot of advantages to going to a smaller school, regardless of reputation. Smaller classes, better access to actual professors, etc. The only disadvantage to the small school is that the football team isn’t as good.

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2pedals
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by 2pedals » Fri May 17, 2019 10:45 pm

In my opinion the big difference is the big state school versus the smaller ivy school atmosphere. Ivy league schools tend to the needs of the student better IMHO. If you are the type that can excel by yourself with less one-on-one with the professors and you do not mind bigger classes then the extra 20k is probably not worth it.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by fourwaystreet » Fri May 17, 2019 11:04 pm

psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm
Could someone educate me on what the “lower Ivy League” schools are?
Brown, Cornell, Penn (outside of Business) and Dartmouth.
Yeah, I would hate to be suffering and one of the low end Ivy schools. The shame of it all.
When someone you love becomes a memory, the memory becomes a treasure.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by beyou » Sat May 18, 2019 6:07 am

ModifiedDuration wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:42 pm
beyou wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:34 pm
psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:09 pm
beyou wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Also note that as you make college friends, many will stay in the region after college at a state school, but friends at Brown would scatter everywhere. Given you may not stay in Michigan nor Rhode Island, this may not matter much in terms of a decision, but your friends will stick together post college more at a state school than at a nationally known college like Brown.
Rhode Island is a small state, physically and population-wise, so it's no surprise that Brown grads would heavily settle out of state. Michigan is a bigger state in both senses.

My guess is that Brown grads end up heavily in New England and the upper Mid-Atlantic (NYC area down through Philly). My guess is that, of the Michigan grads who end up outside of Michigan, there's perhaps a broader dispersal, both throughout the Midwest and to the coasts.
Being a bit literal. I would guess almost NONE of Brown grads settle down in RI.
Yes I meant in the AREA, mostly Boston/NY corridor.
Also since Brown attracts students from far away, many are not attached to the area, and consider going back to their home,
or are already of the personality to move wherever the best opportunities await them (college selection, then later job selection).
I know in my state, MANY state school grads stay in our state, the state gov even gives you a scholarship that would be taken back if you leave the state.
Actually, it looks like the most common cities for employed Brown graduates to end up are, in order, New York, Boston, and Providence:

https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/suppo ... y-location
Yes proves my point about Brown. Among new grads, most move to Boston, NYC, SFO, LA and globally. Few stay in Providence/RI. If you could find a similar chart of grads from most state unis, those full of mostly instate hs grads the map would be much more concentrated in the same state. Michigan attract more out of state students tham most state schools, but still not a huge % compared to top private colleges. U of Michigan has a higher pct oos students than many “state schools” maybe 30%, but no Ivy would have 70% local kids. This impacts socially as I had mentioned. Otoh, it would be enriching to meet people from all over the world, not have 7/10 people you meet who grew up in the same state. These are very personal intangibles, but probably more impactful to your life that those more easily weighed.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by beyou » Sat May 18, 2019 6:15 am

2pedals wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:45 pm
In my opinion the big difference is the big state school versus the smaller ivy school atmosphere. Ivy league schools tend to the needs of the student better IMHO. If you are the type that can excel by yourself with less one-on-one with the professors and you do not mind bigger classes then the extra 20k is probably not worth it.
Having a kid who went to a good private about the size of Brown, and another to the giant Ivy (Cornell), I agree. There is no “Ivy” experience. Cornell was huge and had some parallels to a state school experience. People do love their sports teams (mainly ice hockey). Classes can be impersonal. But otoh, the diverse set of incredibly gifted people you meet from around the globe is unparalled compared to the very best state unis. My other kid at a selective mid size private had a much more personal experience with professors, clubs, career fairs etc. Never felt lost. Was able to be a big fish in a medium size pond. My Cornell grad may have an Ivy on hos resume, but my other son got a superior education IMO, partially due to going to a mid size college. Big enough to offer what you need, small enough to get personal attention and give you chances to make an impact on campus. Seems Brown is a win-win, Ivy on resume but mid size schools, by this measure. For those who would love Cornell, I hear U of Mich is comparable other than the concentration of 70% Michigan HS grads.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by fasteddie911 » Sat May 18, 2019 7:18 am

I went to a large State U similar to UM then transferred to small, expensive liberal arts U similar to Brown. I can't comment on academic prestige as well as others but imo it's a coin toss. I think both are well-regarded and probably other parts of their resume will determine the outcome more than just school name. I can say though that the college experience can be vastly different. The State school was large campus, plenty students, large classes, lots of resources and opportunities, great facilities and extra-curriculars. The smaller school felt more limited. Differences in class size, connecting to professors, etc. seemed negligible. I still had large lectures at the small school and no more individualized attention at one vs the other. Living further from home, in a different region of the country can be an experience as well, either positive or negative, I've seen both sides play out. The large school size can be jarring and make some uncomfortable, but that's not necessarily a bad thing and it can help one grow. It sure did for me.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Sconie » Sat May 18, 2019 7:40 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:03 pm
Pick Michigan

Better yet, pick Wisconsin.

Haha! Well said Bacchus01! [See my screen name ;-) ]
I know that you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what I said is necessarily what I meant......

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Dottie57 » Sat May 18, 2019 7:50 am

freelancer wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:19 am
UMich is way better for CS from an employment standpoint. West coast big tech (Google/Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon) hires more people from Stanford and UMich than other schools. This is both because of the perceived rigor of the CS program at UMich as well as the large class size.
+1. I had never heard of Brown as outstanding in computer science.

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LiveSimple
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by LiveSimple » Sat May 18, 2019 7:53 am

OP, what is the students thought on where he wants to go ?

This discussions parallels the US / International asset allocation, many good thoughts but only the individuals have to make their choice.🎉

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Valuethinker » Sat May 18, 2019 12:35 pm

sidartvader wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:58 pm
Please see note from my son regarding his college choices and share your thoughts (once more). This is pursuant to the previous post (link below), which was pivotal in helping him make his choice at that time. He was waitlisted at Brown at the time.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=278725

"A while back I was deciding between UC Berkeley and UMich and this forum provided solid advice as to the job prospects, atmosphere, and merits of both schools. I ended up deciding on going to UMich for CS and a potential minor in Business (there is a selective application process). However, I was recently offered admission to Brown University for a joint Computer Science and Economics major, which is more interesting to me than a CS major and business minor. Additionally, Brown as a school is more prestigious than UMich and sends its students to top tech/finance companies at a higher frequency (according to their respective career services websites) than does Michigan. The cost differential between the two schools is around $20,000 over four years which I’d be taking as loans. Seeing as my future career goals would be something in either finance or tech, does anyone have an opinion as to how my options stack up? Note that I will not actually be able to visit Brown while school is in session until the fall due to how late waitlist decisions roll out. Thank you!"
Michigan is a very good school.

Brown will open more doors. Elite consulting firms and investment banks will interview him for analyst jobs out of undergrad. Later on his classmates will be in elite jobs all over American business and government.

I have seen first hand the effects of elite education. They are very real.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by drk » Sat May 18, 2019 1:01 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 12:35 pm
Michigan is a very good school.

Brown will open more doors. Elite consulting firms and investment banks will interview him for analyst jobs out of undergrad. Later on his classmates will be in elite jobs all over American business and government.

I have seen first hand the effects of elite education. They are very real.
If he's admitted, I suspect that Michigan Ross's undergraduate program will open at least as many doors in MBB or IB as will Brown. Both schools will get him in front of all the major tech companies if he decides to go in that direction, while Michigan CS will offer a wider array of companies during OCI.

That said, if he values attending an Ivy, Brown's the only answer. Even that can be rectified by an elite MBA, though.

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Socrates
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Socrates » Sat May 18, 2019 4:39 pm

IMHO, I would pick your undergraduate college based on where you want to be. Look at the size of the school, location, weather, college town vs commuter school. It seems like both are top notch school. I would put more effort on prestige on your graduate work. Also, I would go to the school that was cheaper.

I graduated from UC Davis: 31st top ranked college US (I know...big whoop.... it was only one of 3 I applied for). It is the 13th public ranked college. I chose it as my dad was paying the cost and it was significantly cheaper than the other too private schools I was accepted at.

Nobody in my 53 years has ever asked where I got my BA from. At some point it is about your accomplishments and to a lesser degree your graduate work, rather than where you received your bachelors degree from. Pick a place where you want to be and have fun. A big part of college is learning to grow up, manage your time and have fun.
“Don't waste your time looking back. You're not going that way.” ― Ragnar Lothbrok.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by 3504PIR » Sat May 18, 2019 5:09 pm

These multiple part college decision / thinly disguised brag posts are entertaining. When I read them I always come to a point where I see in my mind a parent/child argument in a cluttered basement that always has a part where the kid screams at the parents, “the thread said I should go to Harvard, but you told me to stay in state!” Or something like that.

I would think that a student smart enough to get into either of these schools can figure this out pretty well on their own. But it’s still entertaining to me.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Howie » Sat May 18, 2019 10:30 pm

psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm
Could someone educate me on what the “lower Ivy League” schools are?
Brown, Cornell, Penn (outside of Business) and Dartmouth.
In the most recent WSJ college rankings, the Ivies placed seven of their eight institutions in the Top 11. Dartmouth was #17.

fwellimort
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by fwellimort » Sat May 18, 2019 10:35 pm

Ivy League degree for only a $20k difference?

Brown it is.
It's not even a fair comparison in undergrad.

The only ones that won't admit such are UMich grads.
Take Brown and run.
+1. I had never heard of Brown as outstanding in computer science.
Brown is looked highly in the industry for computer science. Far higher than UMich in the corporate world.
Remember, most computer science careers are NOT engineering careers.

Just look at Brown's CS placement: https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/suppo ... ation/COMP
It does better than (or at least just as well as) Stanford CS for undergrad. In fact, that kind of post-graduate data is abnormal even at top schools in CS.
Brown CS is legit. It hangs around there career placement wise with the tippy top.
UMich CS placement cannot compare in comparison to Brown CS http://career.engin.umich.edu/wp-conten ... rt1516.pdf

It's just different. $20k is noise. Take it.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by randomguy » Sat May 18, 2019 10:46 pm

3504PIR wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:09 pm
These multiple part college decision / thinly disguised brag posts are entertaining. When I read them I always come to a point where I see in my mind a parent/child argument in a cluttered basement that always has a part where the kid screams at the parents, “the thread said I should go to Harvard, but you told me to stay in state!” Or something like that.

I would think that a student smart enough to get into either of these schools can figure this out pretty well on their own. But it’s still entertaining to me.

To be fair to the students, you are making a pretty important decision and there is no way of telling how it will work out. Things like roommates, classmates, and professors will matter as much as any of these rankings. You make a guess and hope things work out

fwellimort
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by fwellimort » Sat May 18, 2019 11:04 pm

jrbdmb wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm
But if you look at real data (US News Salary information for graduates) Computer Engineering majors average $80,600 at UM and $78,500 at Brown. (No info available for CIS at Brown, so I couldn't compare that.)
As someone who majored in Computer Science and is working as a software developer. Here's something to note.
Computer Engineering != Computer Science
Again, I will state loud and clear.
Computer Engineering != Computer Science

From the company recruiting, it is just different.
Computer Engineering would mean you will most likely (probably not because there really isn't much hardware openings from what I noticed) be wanting to work at HP, Dell, Apple, etc.
Computer Science would mean you will most likely be wanting to work at Slack, Stripe, Square, Google, Facebook, Jane Street, DE Shaw, etc.
It's almost a completely distinct set.

Let's look at the Applied Math - Computer Science at Brown: https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/suppo ... ation/APMC
All I can see are Google, Bloomberg, Facebook, Pininterest, Amazon, Palantir
Let's look at Computer Science - Economics at Brown: https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/suppo ... ation/CSEC
All I can see again are Google, Amazon, Goldman Sachs, Palantir
Let's look at Computer Science at Brown: https://www.brown.edu/campus-life/suppo ... ation/COMP
All I can see are Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, etc.

The opportunities are just different. Your average peers will be working at top firms or hot startups in Silicon Valley.
Unlike in UMich, in which these would be the top of top peers.

I will re-iterate once more. CS is NOT Computer Engineering.
The companies students want to work upon graduating with a CS major is distinct from companies students generally want to work upon graduating with a CE major.

And ignore the salary of CE.
The average starting total compensation for an entry level Googler is around $170k. And you are expected to earn around $280k TC after 4 years in the company.
The total compensation for entry level Facebooker who had more than one internship at Facebook during college and did well in internships get an additional bonus of $100k signing.
It's just different. I don't care how prestigious working for Intel is. Intel's starting CS grads start at like $90~105k and pretty much get stuck there forever.
$20k is just noise. Think of the potential connections you can make at Brown. Plus, you get the privilege to bash on the Ivy League and have fun enjoying the Ivy League Meme pages in Facebook.

This is coming from a Columbia graduate (CS major, Applied Math minor).
Starting salaries in CS at top tech firms can be ridiculous. And getting interviews from those firms are pretty random. I know ridiculously bright peers who just never got the opportunity to be interviewed by these top firms.
$20k is truly noise. If you are fortunate and get to work in say Citadel or Jane Street or Two Sigma, you can easily earn 300~500k annually 4.5 years upon graduation. Try getting interviews with these firms from UMich. You most likely won't. And from what I hear from the one peer at Jane Street, the problems Jane Street solves are highly intriguing (and fun). Considering he also did internship at Google Brain, Jane Street must be really legit in terms of the opportunities out there.
And then there's also firms like DE Shaw, HRT. Similar idea.

Also, CS is not really merit based. It's mostly connection based like every other field. The only real argument for CS being a bit more merit based is the Leetcode portion. Other than that, it's pretty much all connections (you probably want referrals to get interviews at top firms. It's very difficult otherwise). I guess Amazon is a bit different though. Amazon kind of hires.. anyone. But it's still looked upon as prestigious due to the pay. Pay is what matters I guess at end of day.
If you want to work for Amazon upon graduation, UMich would be fine. If you want for top startups in Silicon Valley like Lyft/AirBnb or a large tech firm like Facebook or fintech like Two Sigma, you pretty much need a degree from top school.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by srj » Sat May 18, 2019 11:36 pm

I'm from Rhode Island and Brown is certainly highly regarded there. I don't quite know what to make of this, but I saw that they're considered a top school for having the happiest students:
https://www.princetonreview.com/college ... t-students

In terms of CS careers it's very much about coding ability in the interview and less about the university name. It does likely help with getting the interview in the first place.

fwellimort
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by fwellimort » Sun May 19, 2019 12:12 am

srj wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:36 pm
In terms of CS careers it's very much about coding ability in the interview and less about the university name. It does likely help with getting the interview in the first place.
I have a bit of gripe with this (unnecessary but I feel the need to correct it).

Getting a job after majoring in CS is quite... un-merit based.
Companies that generally have six figure salary at entry level interview through problems found in a site called "L E E T C O D E".
I guess in some ways, thank you Leetcode for my job. (I have a love and hate relationship with Leetcode <and I'm not the only one. Go browse through teamblind or reddit. Most people hate this current broken interview process>)

Companies don't care about the courses you took.
Companies don't care about the rigour. Nor your GPA (outside fintech). Nor your projects.
Companies only care about one thing. Your performance in interviews.
An interview process in which those who did nothing at school and solved interview problems would get the job over those who actually studied in college.
Most of my peers who got into Microsoft/Amazon were more of bottom of the pile. And most of my Google friends were more of the top 35th percentile than anything.

It's better employment wise to practice a simple 100 problems in Leetcode (say a two week excercise) over struggling for four years taking courses like Algorithms, Networking, Neural Networks, etc.
Doing well on the interview isn't that difficult even at the "most selective" firms. A "leetcode grind" of say a month should help you be prepared for interviews at even "Google".
The problem then is getting the interview. And hoping the interviewer does not ask some off-the-usual questions (fenwick trees or system design or language/framework specific) and that you happen to remember all the various implementations to the question being asked.

And the interview problems... everyone knows them so it's now a contest of who memorised it beforehand. It's a memorising contest and the one with the best memorisation skill gets the job.
I know 5 friends that got interviews to Google. 3 got the job. All 5 went onsite. The 2 that didn't get it had higher GPA/took harder courses than the 3. The process felt almost entirely random but having the skill to go onsite isn't that difficult. It's from onsite that you just "hope" that you get questions you already solved on Leetcode. Because if you memorised the solution, you are getting in. If not, someone else probably would have and you most likely won't.
Some questions in interviews such as LRU Cache, Cherry Pickup, Maximal Rectangles are just instances of pure memorisation. It's either you seen it and remember it or you don't. Solving them (knowing all optimal solutions and having test cases ready) within 15 minutes otherwise on some problems that took researchers sometimes years to figure out is.. you get the idea. Just memorisation.

What I seen at end of day though was, if given the opportunity to interview, almost anyone at top schools has the skills to go onsite.
The problem is then "getting the interview".
There's just too many applicants and it's really hard to stand out right out of college unless you somehow get an internship at a top firm during college (which most I see got it through referrals or from knowing the process in this field four years beforehand).
Last edited by fwellimort on Sun May 19, 2019 12:38 am, edited 6 times in total.

Starfish
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Starfish » Sun May 19, 2019 12:20 am

fwellimort wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:04 pm
jrbdmb wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm
But if you look at real data (US News Salary information for graduates) Computer Engineering majors average $80,600 at UM and $78,500 at Brown. (No info available for CIS at Brown, so I couldn't compare that.)
As someone who majored in Computer Science and is working as a software developer. Here's something to note.
Computer Engineering != Computer Science
Again, I will state loud and clear.
Computer Engineering != Computer Science

From the company recruiting, it is just different.
Computer Engineering would mean you will most likely (probably not because there really isn't much hardware openings from what I noticed) be wanting to work at HP, Dell, Apple, etc.
Computer Science would mean you will most likely be wanting to work at Slack, Stripe, Square, Google, Facebook, Jane Street, DE Shaw, etc.
It's almost a completely distinct set.
I think this is old school view.
I am not a computers science guy or even a computer engineer but an EE. From my friends who graduated in computer something or engineering something I see all combinations.
I know people who have a degree in EE and worked and Google and FB. I know people with a degree in EE working on Wall Street.

I think if want to migrate between CE and CS and you are intelligent, passionate and determined, it is pretty easy, at least up to Masters level. It turns out companies appreciate a diversity of backgrounds and views.

PS: BTW, apple, amazon, google, microsoft and facebook, all kind of AI companies, Tesla etc are all involved in both hardware and software. So you can get there even on the pure hardware path.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by inbox788 » Sun May 19, 2019 5:00 am

Howie wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:30 pm
psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm
Could someone educate me on what the “lower Ivy League” schools are?
Brown, Cornell, Penn (outside of Business) and Dartmouth.
In the most recent WSJ college rankings, the Ivies placed seven of their eight institutions in the Top 11. Dartmouth was #17.
That was (2018), the 2019 list puts them all in the top 12:

1 Harvard University (1){2}
3 Yale University (6){6}
4 Columbia University (2){5}
=7 Brown University (11){19}
9 Princeton University (9){9}
10 University of Pennsylvania (8) {4}
11 Cornell University (10){8}
12 Dartmouth College (17){15}

28 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor(27){22}
{2017}
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/ra ... cols/stats

Does this suggest Princeton should now be categorized "lower"? And is Brown still on the same?

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun May 19, 2019 5:15 am

BH leans to an Engineering view of CS. I’d suggest that those so inclined read fwellimort’s posts a few times. He/she gets it. I disagree about the memorization part, because that might get the Nth interview but probably not the offer. But otherwise, yes.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by Iorek » Sun May 19, 2019 7:08 am

beyou wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm

I would also look at non-major requirements (thinks like foreign language or other requirements that make your choices less flexible.

Brown doesn’t actually have non-major requirements (although each major has its own requirements)— they trust the students to take responsibility for their own education. Some students would prefer to be given more direction so that’s another difference to consider.

ks289
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by ks289 » Sun May 19, 2019 7:54 am

sidartvader wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:58 pm
Please see note from my son regarding his college choices and share your thoughts (once more). This is pursuant to the previous post (link below), which was pivotal in helping him make his choice at that time. He was waitlisted at Brown at the time.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=278725

"A while back I was deciding between UC Berkeley and UMich and this forum provided solid advice as to the job prospects, atmosphere, and merits of both schools. I ended up deciding on going to UMich for CS and a potential minor in Business (there is a selective application process). However, I was recently offered admission to Brown University for a joint Computer Science and Economics major, which is more interesting to me than a CS major and business minor. Additionally, Brown as a school is more prestigious than UMich and sends its students to top tech/finance companies at a higher frequency (according to their respective career services websites) than does Michigan. The cost differential between the two schools is around $20,000 over four years which I’d be taking as loans. Seeing as my future career goals would be something in either finance or tech, does anyone have an opinion as to how my options stack up? Note that I will not actually be able to visit Brown while school is in session until the fall due to how late waitlist decisions roll out. Thank you!"
Great choices and congratulations!

I’ve read the many interesting and useful posts which contain loads of specifics for CS. To me, the cost differential for out of state UMich vs Brown is relatively small (<10%) which does allow for a more direct comparison between institutions.

Reputation wise for a career in finance (which you mentioned in your prior thread), Brown is clearly more likely to open doors on Wall Street because of the Ivy connection and east coast bias. It is also superior in the CS realm for undergraduate studies (rankings for graduate programs and research/publications just don’t mean as much). If he decides to go in a different direction, Brown will be able to offer an opportunity for a solid foundation.

Specifically about the joint CS - economics concentration, it sounds somewhat rigorous for B.S. (or ScB as Brown calls it) with 20 required courses vs 16 for the B.A. (or AB at Brown). This is made more palatable by the Open Curriculum (complete absence of non-major requirements) and lenient grading policies (ABC/No credit or Satisfactory/No credit). Grading without pluses and minuses (just aim for a 90), Ds, and Fs, and being able to drop classes at any time can greatly reduce stress about outcomes. I’ve mentioned before that the average GPA for Brown graduates is 3.63 which just looks great when compared to similar schools.

Good luck.

infotrader
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by infotrader » Sun May 19, 2019 8:01 am

randomguy wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:44 pm
LiveSimple wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:38 pm
psteinx wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Jags4186 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:48 pm
Could someone educate me on what the “lower Ivy League” schools are?
Brown, Cornell, Penn (outside of Business) and Dartmouth.
Interesting to know where Columbia is in this list.
It is would be part of the bottom but everyone forgets about it. HYP and the rest😀.

Or you could look at individual programs where some schools do better than others.
HYPSC, that is the order at college confidential.

quantAndHold
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by quantAndHold » Sun May 19, 2019 8:47 am

fwellimort wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:12 am
srj wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:36 pm
In terms of CS careers it's very much about coding ability in the interview and less about the university name. It does likely help with getting the interview in the first place.
I have a bit of gripe with this (unnecessary but I feel the need to correct it).

Getting a job after majoring in CS is quite... un-merit based.
Companies that generally have six figure salary at entry level interview through problems found in a site called "L E E T C O D E".
I guess in some ways, thank you Leetcode for my job. (I have a love and hate relationship with Leetcode <and I'm not the only one. Go browse through teamblind or reddit. Most people hate this current broken interview process>)

Companies don't care about the courses you took.
Companies don't care about the rigour. Nor your GPA (outside fintech). Nor your projects.
Companies only care about one thing. Your performance in interviews.
An interview process in which those who did nothing at school and solved interview problems would get the job over those who actually studied in college.
Most of my peers who got into Microsoft/Amazon were more of bottom of the pile. And most of my Google friends were more of the top 35th percentile than anything.

It's better employment wise to practice a simple 100 problems in Leetcode (say a two week excercise) over struggling for four years taking courses like Algorithms, Networking, Neural Networks, etc.
Doing well on the interview isn't that difficult even at the "most selective" firms. A "leetcode grind" of say a month should help you be prepared for interviews at even "Google".
The problem then is getting the interview. And hoping the interviewer does not ask some off-the-usual questions (fenwick trees or system design or language/framework specific) and that you happen to remember all the various implementations to the question being asked.

And the interview problems... everyone knows them so it's now a contest of who memorised it beforehand. It's a memorising contest and the one with the best memorisation skill gets the job.
I know 5 friends that got interviews to Google. 3 got the job. All 5 went onsite. The 2 that didn't get it had higher GPA/took harder courses than the 3. The process felt almost entirely random but having the skill to go onsite isn't that difficult. It's from onsite that you just "hope" that you get questions you already solved on Leetcode. Because if you memorised the solution, you are getting in. If not, someone else probably would have and you most likely won't.
Some questions in interviews such as LRU Cache, Cherry Pickup, Maximal Rectangles are just instances of pure memorisation. It's either you seen it and remember it or you don't. Solving them (knowing all optimal solutions and having test cases ready) within 15 minutes otherwise on some problems that took researchers sometimes years to figure out is.. you get the idea. Just memorisation.

What I seen at end of day though was, if given the opportunity to interview, almost anyone at top schools has the skills to go onsite.
The problem is then "getting the interview".
There's just too many applicants and it's really hard to stand out right out of college unless you somehow get an internship at a top firm during college (which most I see got it through referrals or from knowing the process in this field four years beforehand).
Yes and no. It is true that how the candidate does on the coding problems is a major factor in getting hired, and practice solving coding problems is important. But, memorization is less important than having a thorough understanding of CS fundamentals (algorithms and data structures, primarily), and how to apply those fundamentals to a problem. My experience as someone who conducted about 300 of those interviews was that the people who could pass the interview had, shall we say...paid attention in class. They had a solid grounding in the fundamentals. The main difference between them and the ones who might have had better grades and gone to better schools, but couldn’t pass the interview, was the ability to understand the problem, break it down into its component parts, and build a working solution, on a whiteboard, within about 25 minutes. When students with good grades from good schools failed, it was usually in their inability to organize their thoughts. Students who went to lesser schools or had lower grades often failed because they didn’t have enough understanding of the fundamentals.

Whether coding interviews are a useful way of evaluating candidates is an interesting discussion, that isn’t relevant in this thread.

The point of this is that the top companies will interview pretty much anyone with decent grades from either of these two schools, and the coursework at either of these schools is sufficient to be successful at those interviews. So employability at a FAANG isn’t really a useful criteria for choosing between these two schools.

squaredroot
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Re: Guidance on choosing between UMich and Brown

Post by squaredroot » Sun May 19, 2019 8:48 am

Brown graduate over here (class of 09).

My roommate was a CS major. He told me that Brown has one of the top CS programs in the country at the time and was really one of his factors in finally choosing Brown over others. It is definitely work hard play hard over there with the CS majors and he loved it. :happy

Beautiful campus, very good professors and small college feel (7 k undergrads) where you get some sort of familiarity. Loved my experience.

Just my two cents and best of luck!

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