In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
MnD
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by MnD » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:35 pm

I'm sure they'll "scrape by" somehow......

https://www.shnugi.com/retirement-accou ... liq=700000
A retirement account value of 700000.00 for ages 60 to 65 ranks at: 91.44%
This means that for every 100 people there are about 91 who have less or the same.
For reference, here is how much you would have to have to rank at certain percentiles for ages 60 to 65
90% 619000.00
75% 188000.00
50% 11000.00
25% 0.00

enclee
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by enclee » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:38 pm

You worry too much, and it's not your position to decide someone's retirement age. Also, you're viewing them as failures for having saved 700k with a paid off house with only one income, but they know how to manage money. They had a successful working life.

Family is important and expect your spouse to provide assistance financially. It's great your family has built a financial foundation to pass down, do you know if your in-laws are planning the same? You seem to assume they'll spend all their money.
Last edited by enclee on Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

BuckyBadger
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by BuckyBadger » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:45 pm

Wow.

With every new post you *seem* like maybe you're learning a lesson, but then you throw out some phrasing that shows how completely out of touch you are with, well, EVERYTHING.

Can you really not see the shaming you're still doing in statements like the following?
It is good feedback for me. In a way I am impressed that so many of you would willingly support your in laws with no resentment if they were to run out of money. My father always HOUNDED me about being self sufficient and shamed those who did not pull their own weight.
They have a million dollars and want to retire at 62 and live a frugal life. Yet you continue to accuse them of not "pull[ing] their own weight."

You need to really read everything you're writing. If you can't see how you're STILL enjoying your SUBSTANTIAL privileged from years of monetary gifts and not having to worry about money in your family then stop and read again. And again. Until it sinks in.

veindoc
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by veindoc » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:54 pm

Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
Fourwaystreet - In terms of the health concerns, I meant that in the context of preventing them from getting a Long Term Care policy, not anything that would prevent them from working. I think the reason they denied him was because of a recent cortisone shot in his knee. No clue why that would prevent someone from getting an LTC policy, but I didn't push it.

Trustquestioner - The core value is not being born to wealthy parents. The core value I was referring to is that of hard work, saving, self sufficiency and not relying on children or the taxpayer to step in if you have not planned properly (that being said, I do think entitlement programs are absolutely needed for certain groups (veterans, the sick, etc.), but that is another conversation). From the responses on this thread, I seem to be overreacting quite a bit, and out of touch.

I do appreciate those who have provided constructive advice and those who have helped me understand that I'm coming across poorly, and that my perspective is offensive. It is good feedback for me. In a way I am impressed that so many of you would willingly support your in laws with no resentment if they were to run out of money. My father always HOUNDED me about being self sufficient and shamed those who did not pull their own weight. I realize now I have carried those (somewhat arrogant) values with me into adulthood, and would be wise to adopt a softer perspective.
Mine did too (probably more so because I am a woman) but I also saw him give generously to less fortunate relatives. It is highly unlikely that I will need to financially take care of my father in the future and for that I am grateful. We are looking after my in-laws now and do so willingly and gladly. And my father in law for sure did not manage his money as well as yours. He was forced to retire in his 70’s and they had less than 100,000 in savings. You should congratulate them on his retirement and pat him on the back for a job well done...and then take them on vacation with you gratis.

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greg24
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by greg24 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:01 pm

Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
The core value I was referring to is that of hard work, saving, self sufficiency and not relying on children or the taxpayer to step in if you have not planned properly
Your in-laws have displayed hard work, saving, and self-sufficiency. They're in the 90th percentile of wealth.

Many cultures have a core value of respecting their elders. You are expressing very little respect about your in-laws.

trustquestioner
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by trustquestioner » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:02 pm

I have a strong suspicion that such a trip would not be of interest to them. Holidays must be a blast...

bene1
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by bene1 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:12 pm

Bogle1981,

Kudos to you for taking the feedback and being willing to listen. It seems you are taking the responses to heart and trying to make an attitude adjustment. Regarding this mindset...
Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
The core value I was referring to is that of hard work, saving, self sufficiency and not relying on children or the taxpayer to step in if you have not planned properly

My father always HOUNDED me about being self sufficient and shamed those who did not pull their own weight.
While we don't know your in-laws, I wouldn't be surprised if they felt very much the same. That's why they (presumably) spent decades working hard, saving, being self-sufficient, not relying on children or taxpayers, planning, and pulling their own weight to accumulate about seven hundred thousand dollars in investments and three hundred thousand dollars in home equity. I would guess they are proud of achieving a net worth of about one million dollars. I'd say congratulations are in order for a hard-earned retirement, and I'm sure they can make it last a long time, especially considering social security.

Is it 100% guaranteed that their nest egg will cover every single possible outcome? No, and the unknown elements of the final phase of their lives may be the source of comments. Still, you might have more in common with them philosophically than you think. :beer

teamDE
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by teamDE » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:24 pm

In my experience the most ardent "pull yourself up by the bootstraps!" believers are those who've lived the most sheltered lives. Go volunteer to work in a soup kitchen for a shift. I bet you'll find the hungry don't look like what you think they do.

veindoc
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by veindoc » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:25 pm

The shocking part of this thread is not so much the gripe about having to help in laws financially it’s that 1) the in-laws efforts are essentially mocked and trivialized and 2) that the OP is actively getting a cash payout from mom and dad and then transferring the cash payout to the kids. It makes it hard to buy the self-sufficiency argument coupled with the presumed lack of empathy and generosity.

CoAndy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by CoAndy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:36 pm

I would help my in laws. Now, if they spend years making poor decision after poor decision and expect money from me, then absolutely resentment will kick in. Also, you in-laws have taken steps to prepare themselves for retirement.

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Kenkat
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Kenkat » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:50 pm

I think your in-laws are likely fine. For comparison purposes, my in-laws retired with $250k in assets and monthly income from pension and social security of around $3000/mo. The monthly income was enough that they were still able to save a little when they lived on their own. When they went to assisted living, they still only needed to draw $500 to $1000 a month from their savings and the facility they were in, once you qualified for entry, would accept medicaid plus your monthly pension/SS income if you exhausted your assets. They would not accept new medicaid patients however - so we learned it was important to select a place before assets were exhausted. They ended up passing away with most of their assets intact and lived to 89/85, spending only a short time in full skilled nursing care.

DonIce
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by DonIce » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:58 pm

I think people in this thread are being much too hard on the OP. Different cultures/families are different. In some, parents asking or needing money from their children is unheard of, as the whole focus of people's lives is to create a better life for their children. My gramma would rather starve than take any financial help from her kids or grandkids. She worked odd jobs in menial labor until ~80 and now subsists on OAS in Canada and still saves nearly a third of that meager amount just to gift to her grandkids yearly and refuses to take no for an answer when I tell her she should keep it and spend it on herself to make life a bit more enjoyable. In other cultures/families, parents relying on their children for help is taken as a matter of course. Marriages can intertwine families of very different cultural backgrounds and coming to this forum to ask for opinions and feedback is a great step for someone to take when unsure of what to do or how to think about a situation.

Lay off the criticisms and give the guy advice unencumbered with your judgements, folks.

skp
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by skp » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm

I agree with the poster on page 1 who said the main problem here is that the OP and his ILs come from different socioeconomic status. Also from the rest of us on this board. That's the only thing I can come up with that someone thinks that you can't safely retire with a paid off house, Social security payments, and $700k in the bank. FIL is 62- I wonder what type of job the FIL has. If he is doing manual labor and needs to get joint injections, maybe has arthritis or joint problems that make working difficult. That could be the reason he is retiring "early".
Last edited by skp on Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cheese_breath
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:02 pm

skp wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm
I agree with the poster above who said the main problem here is that the OP and his ILs come from different socioeconomic status. Also from the rest of us on this board. That's the only thing I can come up with that someone thinks that you can't safely retire with a paid off house, Social security payments, and $700k in the bank. FIL is 62- I wonder what type of job the FIL has. If he is doing manual labor and needs to get joint injections, maybe has arthritis or joint problems that make working difficult. That could be the reason he is retiring "early".
Maybe he's a boglehead and made his number.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

BuckyBadger
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by BuckyBadger » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:03 pm

DonIce wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:58 pm
I think people in this thread are being much too hard on the OP. Different cultures/families are different. In some, parents asking or needing money from their children is unheard of, as the whole focus of people's lives is to create a better life for their children. My gramma would rather starve than take any financial help from her kids or grandkids. She worked odd jobs in menial labor until ~80 and now subsists on OAS in Canada and still saves nearly a third of that meager amount just to gift to her grandkids yearly and refuses to take no for an answer when I tell her she should keep it and spend it on herself to make life a bit more enjoyable. In other cultures/families, parents relying on their children for help is taken as a matter of course. Marriages can intertwine families of very different cultural backgrounds and coming to this forum to ask for opinions and feedback is a great step for someone to take when unsure of what to do or how to think about a situation.

Lay off the criticisms and give the guy advice unencumbered with your judgements, folks.
This case does not track with your examples, though. The OPs in-laws have asked him for NOTHING and it is likely that they never will.

Yet he comes onto this board to trivialize their savings and future while crowing about how well he is doing and how his parents are doing so well they're giving them money they the OP doesn't even need.

Very different from your cultural differences argument in my opinion.

Ybsybs
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Ybsybs » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:07 pm

Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:55 am
Thanks very much to all for your feedback and insight. I did not realize that this situation is quite standard, and after reading several of your responses, I agree that I might be a bit out of touch. This has been a good lesson learned for me.

Regarding the money gifted to us from my family - this isn't money that we spend, other than annual donations to a foundation set up by a family member. We plan to filter this money directly to our kids, as our parents have done for us. I do not think it is appropriate to spend these funds on my in laws. That being said, I realize I am being quite judgemental about my in-laws. In my family of origin, parents would never expect, much less accept, financial assistance from their children. Quite the opposite, as they had goals to grow wealth and preserve through generations. I realize not everyone holds these values, which I understand. I by no means at all expect my in laws to give us anything, but it makes me uncomfortable that they are OK with relying on us if they do run out of money. It is a difference in core values, but I am working very hard to change my perspective.

The main thing concerning me while writing the post was not so much helping them out here and there with minor expenses, but more so the risk of having to pay for nursing home care / assisted living, which often runs $8-10k a month, as it did with both of my grandparents. They were well equipped to pay for it, but I do not think my in laws would be able to afford that. So what do we do then? What are our options? Do we need to factor this into our financial plan?
I have a contrarian opinion about this situation compared to what the other posters have said. My reason is that my inlaws retired early, claimed their financial situation was fine, and a lot of people told me I was 'borrowing trouble' and it was 'none of my business' when I expressed worry about their choices. Then after too much time had passed to be able to get paid work again, they told us they were choosing to not fill prescriptions because 'they cost too much.' We started sending them money.

My spouse and I have given them a lot of money over the last five years and it has not been appreciated by them.

I worried a lot about the nursing home / assisted living care as that would far exceed what I'd be comfortable paying and I was afraid my spouse would insist on depleting our retirement savings to pay it. The comments I got then was that I needed to accept that one day they'd be moving in with us and I'd become their primary caregiver. If that had happened, it would probably have ended my marriage.

Fortunately our state is one where Medicaid, in certain circumstances, will cover assisted living. The eldercare lawyer we've been working with has been answering our questions specific to Medicaid in our state.

This might be a good time for you and your spouse to update your wills and while you are there ask your lawyer about what the Medicaid laws are in your state and what the filial support laws are. In learning about Medicaid in your state, you'd want to know if your inlaws can get help if they run out of assets and also if one of the couple needs assistance but the other is still healthy what happens then.

Hopefully the inlaws will always be able to pay their own way and their financial choices aren't going to put you in a hard position.

TN_Boy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by TN_Boy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:15 pm

Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
Fourwaystreet - In terms of the health concerns, I meant that in the context of preventing them from getting a Long Term Care policy, not anything that would prevent them from working. I think the reason they denied him was because of a recent cortisone shot in his knee. No clue why that would prevent someone from getting an LTC policy, but I didn't push it.

Trustquestioner - The core value is not being born to wealthy parents. The core value I was referring to is that of hard work, saving, self sufficiency and not relying on children or the taxpayer to step in if you have not planned properly (that being said, I do think entitlement programs are absolutely needed for certain groups (veterans, the sick, etc.), but that is another conversation). From the responses on this thread, I seem to be overreacting quite a bit, and out of touch.

I do appreciate those who have provided constructive advice and those who have helped me understand that I'm coming across poorly, and that my perspective is offensive. It is good feedback for me. In a way I am impressed that so many of you would willingly support your in laws with no resentment if they were to run out of money. My father always HOUNDED me about being self sufficient and shamed those who did not pull their own weight. I realize now I have carried those (somewhat arrogant) values with me into adulthood, and would be wise to adopt a softer perspective.
I'm surprised but pleased you actually came back and responded to some fairly negative comments. Based on your responses, I'll make a couple of additional comments and suggestions.

For one thing, yes, you are out of touch. They have more resources than most who retire and your consistent belief they should keep working is based upon your notions of how much a couple should have. Even if FIL kept working, they would likely never have enough resources to make you comfortable .......

Why do you think they expect you and your wife to step in and support them if they run out of money? Have they said that? If they HAVE, that would change mine (and some other posters) answers, at least in part.

One thing I think I am hearing is you believing that *IF* they had large LTC expenses, they might not have enough money and you don't want to have to help. And you are right. If one or both needed 10 years in skilled nursing, they are not going to be able to afford that (without running down all assets and going on medicaid). But working longer wouldn't necessarily change that. You need a lot of money to handle that disaster scenario -- we are talking potentially 1 to 2 million. And LTC insurance would be pretty expensive for them (when/if LTC insurance is a good idea is a hotly debated topic on this forum -- search a bit and you'll find several relevant threads).

But they DO appear to have sufficient resources to handle the far more common case -- a couple of years in the far cheaper assisted living. So I'm kinda back to saying that you are not that up on several aspects of retirement, including costs and likelihood of long term care, how to manage retirement money, etc. This is actually a fine time for you to start learning more about these things, to provide useful input if asked, and to start thinking about your own situation.

I'll repeat again the one thing that would worry me, what is their plan for healthcare before medicare kicks in?

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munemaker
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by munemaker » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:18 pm

Unlike most responses, I can understand your concern.

He could keep working but decides to retire early. His assets may be enough if everything goes well, but with health problems, there is not much cushion. You are concerned because he could keep working and have a little cushion, or quit working early and you end up being the backstop.

So it is like watching a potential train wreck in slow motion.

I understand your perspective completely.

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cowdogman
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by cowdogman » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:20 pm

It's natural to worry about the financial condition of parents and in-laws--for selfish and non-selfish reasons.

But with in-laws the advice is simple--"stay out of it." You'll just anger everybody--and achieve nothing.

Put a reminder in your calendar for 10 years from now to check (discretely ) how things are going with them financially.

And buy them a retirement gift! This should be a happy time for them.

TN_Boy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by TN_Boy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 pm

Ybsybs wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:07 pm
Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:55 am
Thanks very much to all for your feedback and insight. I did not realize that this situation is quite standard, and after reading several of your responses, I agree that I might be a bit out of touch. This has been a good lesson learned for me.

Regarding the money gifted to us from my family - this isn't money that we spend, other than annual donations to a foundation set up by a family member. We plan to filter this money directly to our kids, as our parents have done for us. I do not think it is appropriate to spend these funds on my in laws. That being said, I realize I am being quite judgemental about my in-laws. In my family of origin, parents would never expect, much less accept, financial assistance from their children. Quite the opposite, as they had goals to grow wealth and preserve through generations. I realize not everyone holds these values, which I understand. I by no means at all expect my in laws to give us anything, but it makes me uncomfortable that they are OK with relying on us if they do run out of money. It is a difference in core values, but I am working very hard to change my perspective.

The main thing concerning me while writing the post was not so much helping them out here and there with minor expenses, but more so the risk of having to pay for nursing home care / assisted living, which often runs $8-10k a month, as it did with both of my grandparents. They were well equipped to pay for it, but I do not think my in laws would be able to afford that. So what do we do then? What are our options? Do we need to factor this into our financial plan?
I have a contrarian opinion about this situation compared to what the other posters have said. My reason is that my inlaws retired early, claimed their financial situation was fine, and a lot of people told me I was 'borrowing trouble' and it was 'none of my business' when I expressed worry about their choices. Then after too much time had passed to be able to get paid work again, they told us they were choosing to not fill prescriptions because 'they cost too much.' We started sending them money.

My spouse and I have given them a lot of money over the last five years and it has not been appreciated by them.

I worried a lot about the nursing home / assisted living care as that would far exceed what I'd be comfortable paying and I was afraid my spouse would insist on depleting our retirement savings to pay it. The comments I got then was that I needed to accept that one day they'd be moving in with us and I'd become their primary caregiver. If that had happened, it would probably have ended my marriage.

Fortunately our state is one where Medicaid, in certain circumstances, will cover assisted living. The eldercare lawyer we've been working with has been answering our questions specific to Medicaid in our state.

This might be a good time for you and your spouse to update your wills and while you are there ask your lawyer about what the Medicaid laws are in your state and what the filial support laws are. In learning about Medicaid in your state, you'd want to know if your inlaws can get help if they run out of assets and also if one of the couple needs assistance but the other is still healthy what happens then.

Hopefully the inlaws will always be able to pay their own way and their financial choices aren't going to put you in a hard position.
We are assuming that the OP gave accurate information -- 700k in assets, a paid off 300k home, frugal lifestyle.

Sure, if that information is wrong, then our answers might be wrong. And if I was really worried, I'd try and find a way to get answers to a couple of questions.

And we don't actually know their spending, or their plans for healthcare, etc. We do know if the information we have is correct, then the FIL and MIL have the ABILITY to be okay -- they are not "scraping by."

And note they they didn't retire very early -- 62 is an average retirement age. Some workaholics think you should work until you drop, but I don't, and apparently neither does the OP's FIL!

TN_Boy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by TN_Boy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:28 pm

munemaker wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:18 pm
Unlike most responses, I can understand your concern.

He could keep working but decides to retire early. His assets may be enough if everything goes well, but with health problems, there is not much cushion. You are concerned because he could keep working and have a little cushion, or quit working early and you end up being the backstop.

So it is like watching a potential train wreck in slow motion.

I understand your perspective completely.
62 is not that early. 700k is not broke. They do not have the funds to self-pay decades of skilled nursing. If FIL works for 5 more years, he still won't have enough money for that.

Yes, he decided to stop working. What a crazy idea.

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Sheepdog
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Sheepdog » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 pm

Don't suffer. Your in laws are not likely to either. I retired 20 years ago with $800k, slightly more than your inlaws with no pension. I had a heart attack 3 months before retiring. I could not get LTC either. Oh, my God, how am I going to live? So, I took a trip to Scotland, Ireland and England. and over the years to the Orient, Russia, other Eastern Europe countries, Asia, Great Britain again, South and Central America, the Orient again, multiple Caribbean countries and several cruises. We bought autos regularly including 3 sport cars for fun We attend the arts, professional football season ticket holders, etc. We donated to charities regularly and more as we aged. We have $l million now and we are still spending. I don't think my kids are worrying about us spending everything. Geez, man. Cool it.
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

Kennedy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Kennedy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:45 pm

OP, I think many people here are being hard on you not for what you are saying but for how you are saying it. It basically boils down to your in-laws retired while they could still physically work. That was their choice. If they should run out of money at some point, there are government safety nets that could take over. Why should you have to foot the bill for $8-10,000/month nursing care (and that's for one in-law, not two).

In a nursing home paid for by Medicaid, the resident gets food to eat, medication, therapy and a roof over their head. No luxuries, but why should you have to pay for a private pay nursing home if your in-laws made the choice to retire when they could still be working. Many people in this world would be incredibly grateful to live in a facility in what our society turns their collective noses up at.

I was just having this conversation with a friend. Her middle class parents retired in good health at age 59. Fast forward 15 years, and they have little money left over each month after paying bills. Instead of working, they spent the last 15 years lying around watching tv. Is that then their daughter's responsibility to pay for a private nursing home should they require care down the road? Just so they could live in a more luxurious setting with more individual care? Didn't they make that choice when they decided to retire early?

With that said, chances are your in-laws are going to be just fine. If one or both need care, they can spend down their savings and sell their house (if only one spouse is alive) and use the proceeds for their needs. And if their money is used up, that's what government safety nets are for.

printer86
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by printer86 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:46 pm

Sheepdog wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 pm
Don't suffer. Your in laws are not likely to either. I retired 20 years ago with $800k, slightly more than your inlaws with no pension. I had a heart attack 3 months before retiring. I could not get LTC either. Oh, my God, how am I going to live? So, I took a trip to Scotland, Ireland and England. and over the years to the Orient, Russia, other Eastern Europe countries, Asia, Great Britain again, South and Central America, the Orient again, multiple Caribbean countries and several cruises. We bought autos regularly including 3 sport cars for fun We attend the arts, professional football season ticket holders, etc. We donated to charities regularly and more as we aged. We have $l million now and we are still spending. I don't think my kids are worrying about us spending everything. Geez, man. Cool it.
I love when Sheepdog chimes in. Wish you the best.

TN_Boy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by TN_Boy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:48 pm

Sheepdog wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 pm
Don't suffer. Your in laws are not likely to either. I retired 20 years ago with $800k, slightly more than your inlaws with no pension. I had a heart attack 3 months before retiring. I could not get LTC either. Oh, my God, how am I going to live? So, I took a trip to Scotland, Ireland and England. and over the years to the Orient, Russia, other Eastern Europe countries, Asia, Great Britain again, South and Central America, the Orient again, multiple Caribbean countries and several cruises. We bought autos regularly including 3 sport cars for fun We attend the arts, professional football season ticket holders, etc. We donated to charities regularly and more as we aged. We have $l million now and we are still spending. I don't think my kids are worrying about us spending everything. Geez, man. Cool it.
Ah but sheepdog, I must point out the inflation problem ... 800k in 1999 is equivalent to 1.2M today. You started with a good bit more than the OP's inlaws. And your nest egg today is down in real dollars from when you retired.

You're still doing great :-) but I feel compelled to point out "real" versus "nominal" dollars.

cherijoh
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by cherijoh » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm

trustquestioner wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:20 pm
Imagine raising your family and saving 700k on a modest income, plus a paid off house, retiring to a modest lifestyle and promptly having your kid’s spouse raising a stink because of worries you might eventually ask for money.

Say congratulations and redirect the energy you’re spending thinking about this to gratitude your parents are giving you so much money.
If the OP wanted to actually be helpful (rather than simply judgmental), he could ask how they are situated for healthcare between now and medicare eligibility and offer to help navigate the healthcare jungle to find the best option for them. I know this would have intimidated my late mother. Fortunately, my dad retired with retiree healthcare which she was able to keep after she was widowed.

OP could also offer to look into whether his in-laws are eligible for any tax breaks for seniors in the city/county/state where they live. I think these benefits generally kick in at 65, but that could vary by state or locale. Some benefeits may be based strictly on income (not assets), so they might qualify for a senior dicount on their property taxes, for example. Smaller benefits could include free tuition at the local community college, discounts on public transportation, etc. My local grocery store offers a 10% discount on Thursdays, which I keep forgetting to ask about now that I've turned 60.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by GoldenFinch » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:25 pm

Sheepdog wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 pm
Don't suffer. Your in laws are not likely to either. I retired 20 years ago with $800k, slightly more than your inlaws with no pension. I had a heart attack 3 months before retiring. I could not get LTC either. Oh, my God, how am I going to live? So, I took a trip to Scotland, Ireland and England. and over the years to the Orient, Russia, other Eastern Europe countries, Asia, Great Britain again, South and Central America, the Orient again, multiple Caribbean countries and several cruises. We bought autos regularly including 3 sport cars for fun We attend the arts, professional football season ticket holders, etc. We donated to charities regularly and more as we aged. We have $l million now and we are still spending. I don't think my kids are worrying about us spending everything. Geez, man. Cool it.
Thank you Mr. Sheepdog! And even if the stock market hadn’t produced the gains it did (after some bad years) I think you would have done just fine. I have relatives who live on very little and have done so for decades and are doing well. I also have relatives who are mega multi millionaires and their quality of life is not any better than the ones who live on next to nothing based on daily contentment. Money is only one aspect of life, we just focus on it a lot here for obvious reasons.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:01 pm

I suppose he could keep working until he died on the job or he developed severe medical problems that forced him to retire. And maybe she could get a job and work until she dropped dead too. But they still might not have enough to cover possible long term care expenses of a major medical disaster. So maybe they should just retire at 62, relax, and hope for the best.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by JoeRetire » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:27 pm

munemaker wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:18 pm
So it is like watching a potential train wreck in slow motion.
It's like watching a potential train wreck in slow motion, and saying "That train wreck will make me late for work. My life sucks!"

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by CrazyCatLady » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:31 pm

DonIce wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:58 pm
I think people in this thread are being much too hard on the OP. Different cultures/families are different. In some, parents asking or needing money from their children is unheard of, as the whole focus of people's lives is to create a better life for their children. My gramma would rather starve than take any financial help from her kids or grandkids. She worked odd jobs in menial labor until ~80 and now subsists on OAS in Canada and still saves nearly a third of that meager amount just to gift to her grandkids yearly and refuses to take no for an answer when I tell her she should keep it and spend it on herself to make life a bit more enjoyable. In other cultures/families, parents relying on their children for help is taken as a matter of course. Marriages can intertwine families of very different cultural backgrounds and coming to this forum to ask for opinions and feedback is a great step for someone to take when unsure of what to do or how to think about a situation.

Lay off the criticisms and give the guy advice unencumbered with your judgements, folks.
I agree. The OP didn't necessarily phrase his concerns in the best possible way, but 2 pages of posts calling him arrogant and unfeeling seems a bit excessive to me. And for the record, it sounds like his in-laws have suggested, or at least joked, that he is their backup plan...
Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:38 pm
Thegame14 - That is a bit extreme. Of course we would help them if something happened. It would just me much easier to do so if 1. They were still working (they are still perfectly healthy), and 2. They didn't make comments here and there about relying on us if anything goes wrong. That doesn't necessarily mean they expect it, but I do sense a bit of seriousness in their comments. I'm just frustrated about it, but I sincerely appreciate everyone's perspectives and apologize to any I have offended.

[OT comment removed by moderator prudent]

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by AlohaJoe » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:45 pm

I'm not clear on what is "actionable" out of all of this?

Is the OP going to somehow force them to go back to work?

Is the OP going to sit down with the parents and...what, exactly? Tell them that he's not comfortable with their decision to retire without consulting him? Ask them to walk him through their complete retirement financial plan, complete with spending goals and contingency plans so he can okay it?

I...just don't see those as things that happen in the real world.

The only actionable thing I can really see is that the OP sits down with his wife and says, "Just FYI, I am telling you now that I refuse to ever financially help out your parents. It was their decision to stop working when they were physically able to. They made their bed and now have to lay in it."

But I just struggle to see how that conversation with the wife about her parents goes that is likely to be useful or constructive? It seems far more likely that she becomes defensive and angry, with a reply similar to what many posters have had.

The OP is worried, that is clear. The only course of action seem to be to figure out how to let go of that worry. If the OP can find a way to have a constructive conversation with his wife about the situation, that seems like the best course.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by cherijoh » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:44 pm

skp wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm
I agree with the poster on page 1 who said the main problem here is that the OP and his ILs come from different socioeconomic status. Also from the rest of us on this board. That's the only thing I can come up with that someone thinks that you can't safely retire with a paid off house, Social security payments, and $700k in the bank. FIL is 62- I wonder what type of job the FIL has. If he is doing manual labor and needs to get joint injections, maybe has arthritis or joint problems that make working difficult. That could be the reason he is retiring "early".
The other thought that came to my mind was that FIL was being forced out - either directly or more subtly with the offer of a package or a bridge of retiree healthcare until eligible for Medicare. Sometimes these offers come with a heavy undertone of "the next time we need tocut, we may not be so genererous". It would be tough to find another job at his age, so he may have decided to retire early. And if that were the case, he might not want it known that he was "let go".

My though is also that if his in-laws were as poor planners as OP's post suggests he thinks of them, then they wouldn't have a paid off house or any assets set aside for retirement. Most people simply do not have the financial resources to cover an extended stay at a private nursing home, but working a few more years wouldn't address that issue anyway.

I would have been far more concerned if the in-laws had shown signs of not being able to keep up with ordinary expenses in retirement - for example if they had bought their dream home at age 50 and still had 15+ years of $$ mortgage payments or they had borrowed the maximum against their HELOC to cover their current bills. If the in-laws were living high on the hog and retiring at 62 with the kids as a back-up plan, then the OP would have some cause for concern and IMO the right to feel some resentment.

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Sheepdog
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Sheepdog » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:25 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:48 pm

Ah but sheepdog, I must point out the inflation problem ... 800k in 1999 is equivalent to 1.2M today. You started with a good bit more than the OP's inlaws. And your nest egg today is down in real dollars from when you retired.

You're still doing great :-) but I feel compelled to point out "real" versus "nominal" dollars.
It has been awhile since I described my retirement investing plans and hopes here. My hope was to be able to maintain my standard of living over 30+ years, if I lived that long. It was not to maintain my nest egg "real" value. It was instead just to not run out and maintain life’s comforts up to age 100.
Many, if not most Bogleheads talk about the “4 percent rule”......at retirement take out 4% then increase annually by the CPI. That again, was to not run out. I took it different for my plan....take out an average 4.5% annually and don’t look at the CPI. If that worked.....taking out 4.5%, I would not run out.
I wanted to explain to you all that many, if not all, senior’s, inflation does not follow the CPI. (I’ll show my “personal” inflation later.) Some do, but I don’t personally know of any one and I am 86. I don’t buy a new house often (I have not changed at all). Some do rent, which may follow that section of the CPI, but I and others like me do not. I don’t buy the latest TV or electronic gadget. I buy cars, but because I don’t drive as much, I purchase a late model pre-owned auto about every 10 years, as does my spouse. Etc.
My plan was to invest in retirement “my age in bonds”, so what happens? I started that at age 66. By age 77, I reached 23% stock. (At retirement at age 65, I was at only 59%.) That is part of not reducing my savings too much in major market downturns and I didn’t in 2000-02 and the last big drop. That kept my plan intact....spend everything I want including travel, comforts and health. So, for most of us old folks the CPI inflation adjustment is not important.

Okay, my nestegg did not increase with the CPI. So what. That was not important as I have already written. I did keep up with “my” personal inflation. To show you, In my first 5 years in retirement, we spent an average of $57,580. My last 5 year average spending was $63,784....only 10%...a lot less than the CPI. And in the last 5 years, I have donated much more to charities, so if that was not included, you know what I mean. According to government figures, consumer inflation went up 50.7%% from 1999 to 2018. MY inflation, and many, if not most retirees personal inflation did not either. (I spent $68,648 in 1999 and $62,029 in 2018....a drop, but a freak record one.)
I will not run out and that should be the main goal of most retirees. I don't need to match the CPI either. My nest egg increased more than enough.
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

Jags4186
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Jags4186 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:31 pm

I would suggest it’s none of your business unless they ask for money.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Lafder » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:41 pm

Bogle1981,
My Father in law has never been responsible with his finances. He took social security at the first chance he got since he needed it to survive. He was proud of working cash jobs for years, but it effected his social security. He lives in a million dollar house in a highish cost of living city he bought 25 plus years ago for under 200k. It would cost closer to 300k in my town. He can not afford to move, for now. He won't consider a lower cost place. But he may agree to move to a lower cost of living city some day. He had a relative give him the down payment. The same relative lives with him and pays him rent which allows him to get by on his social security. The house is actually in both of their names and they have different opinions on who owns how much of the house. They will likely live together til one passes. My husband's chances of inheritance are low, as depending on which relative goes first there will be none or some of the value of the house. They own it joint tenant with rights of survival. So that determines who owns it more than their opinions.

We have always joked one or both of our sets of parents will move in with us some day.

As you are seeing, the vast majority of responses here are reassuring you that your in laws are better off than most Americans and likely will continue to do fine as the same people who accumulated this wealth on less than 6 figure incomes.

In my family, no one pays for long term care insurance. Another family joke is take me out to the woods or mountains and if I can't find my way back it was my time. The elders who have passed either lived independently til the end, were cared for by family at home, or got suddenly ill and passed in the hospital.

With my dad's family, his mom and her husband had excess money til they didn't. Another son proposed all kids kick in x dollars a month to support the full time housekeeper, country club membership, car payments. My dad said he would rather send money to the housekeeper they had since he was a kid than to his parents to continue the lavish lifestyle they couldn't afford. (I remember thinking this was funny when I was a kid overhearing the conversation) When not all grown kids agreed to send $ monthly, they had to cut back on expenses and end club memberships, downsize to one car. They were not completely out of money to live, just to live at that level. The son proposing they all kick in and support was actually the wealthiest and resented the others not helping. Turns out there were 6 figures in cash assets left when both passed so the "out of money" was not true. (I believe the request for $ came from the son who was concerned and did not come from the parents who actually still had reserves).

There is just no way to know what is needed til the last day.

Frugal people who budget tend to continue to do the same. Spendthrifts......spend beyond their means repeatedly.

I agree with the comments that your inlaws sound responsible and I think you can worry less about them and keep in mind they raised the spouse you chose so they must be doing many things right :)

My own parents splurge on many more things than I do. My mom says her someday is now, and bought a new better tv because she wanted it recently. I do not think they will run out of money...but only time will tell. House is paid for, there is social security and other income. But their assets could be depleted if needed for extra support for them. I would be willing to have either or both of my parents move in with me, or my father in law move in with me, if they needed it. We say we can't downsize so we have room for his and her parents to move in at the same time!! But other times we say we better downsize now before they move in. :)

I am glad to have my parents and father in law still in good health and hope they have many more quality independent years to go! I hope the same is true for yours!

lafder

spammagnet
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by spammagnet » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:57 pm

Bogle1981 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:48 pm
... My side of the family gifts us the max amout each year. I woud never expect that from my in laws, but I draw the line in a situation where they would have to take from us due to not being able to support themselves. ...
You're willing to accept gifts but unwilling to give gifts?

Nissanzx1
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Nissanzx1 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:05 am

They live frugally, they are fine. My grandparents lived off SS for 25 years with a paid for house and old paid for car. Their nest egg was $40K. No one starved, bills were paid...

I’d personally let it be. They have more money than probably 90% of retirees.

Of course it would have been nice for him to work to 65 or 66, but he chose another path.

student
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by student » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am

I think some are too hard on the OP.

1) Several commented that OP takes money from his/her parents but are not willing to give. OP gave additional info: "Regarding the money gifted to us from my family - this isn't money that we spend, other than annual donations to a foundation set up by a family member. We plan to filter this money directly to our kids, as our parents have done for us." So OP's plan is not to spend the money himself/herself.

2) Others have commented that the OP's in-laws did not ask for money. OP gave additional info:
"They didn't make comments here and there about relying on us if anything goes wrong. That doesn't necessarily mean they expect it, but I do sense a bit of seriousness in their comments." I assume that the word "didn't" should be "did," otherwise, the sentences do not make sense. Although they did not ask specifically, it does seem that they may be testing the water.

3) Others have commented that OP's in-laws have enough money already and that OP is out-of-touch. OP has admitted that he is out-of-touch and explained that "we would never let anything happen to them" but worry about "the risk of having to pay for nursing home care / assisted living." This seems a reasonable concern to me.

OP: I agree with those who said that at there is nothing you can do at this point as they have not explicitly asked for assistance other than dropping hints. I suppose you can avoid promising anything or change topics when they drop hints. The comments from sheepdog and Lafder are very good and may help ease your concerns.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:14 am

Sheepdog wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:25 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:48 pm

Ah but sheepdog, I must point out the inflation problem ... 800k in 1999 is equivalent to 1.2M today. You started with a good bit more than the OP's inlaws. And your nest egg today is down in real dollars from when you retired.

You're still doing great :-) but I feel compelled to point out "real" versus "nominal" dollars.
It has been awhile since I described my retirement investing plans and hopes here. My hope was to be able to maintain my standard of living over 30+ years, if I lived that long. It was not to maintain my nest egg "real" value. It was instead just to not run out and maintain life’s comforts up to age 100.
Many, if not most Bogleheads talk about the “4 percent rule”......at retirement take out 4% then increase annually by the CPI. That again, was to not run out. I took it different for my plan....take out an average 4.5% annually and don’t look at the CPI. If that worked.....taking out 4.5%, I would not run out.
I wanted to explain to you all that many, if not all, senior’s, inflation does not follow the CPI. (I’ll show my “personal” inflation later.) Some do, but I don’t personally know of any one and I am 86. I don’t buy a new house often (I have not changed at all). Some do rent, which may follow that section of the CPI, but I and others like me do not. I don’t buy the latest TV or electronic gadget. I buy cars, but because I don’t drive as much, I purchase a late model pre-owned auto about every 10 years, as does my spouse. Etc.
My plan was to invest in retirement “my age in bonds”, so what happens? I started that at age 66. By age 77, I reached 23% stock. (At retirement at age 65, I was at only 59%.) That is part of not reducing my savings too much in major market downturns and I didn’t in 2000-02 and the last big drop. That kept my plan intact....spend everything I want including travel, comforts and health. So, for most of us old folks the CPI inflation adjustment is not important.

Okay, my nestegg did not increase with the CPI. So what. That was not important as I have already written. I did keep up with “my” personal inflation. To show you, In my first 5 years in retirement, we spent an average of $57,580. My last 5 year average spending was $63,784....only 10%...a lot less than the CPI. And in the last 5 years, I have donated much more to charities, so if that was not included, you know what I mean. According to government figures, consumer inflation went up 50.7%% from 1999 to 2018. MY inflation, and many, if not most retirees personal inflation did not either. (I spent $68,648 in 1999 and $62,029 in 2018....a drop, but a freak record one.)
I will not run out and that should be the main goal of most retirees. I don't need to match the CPI either. My nest egg increased more than enough.
Sheepdog,

I think we've had this discussion before .....

The crux of the matter seems to be that you believe that CPI and reported inflation over the years has no meaning/has no value. I think you are wrong. A LOT of people worry about the impact of inflation on buying power. Although younger than you, I've had decades in the work force, believe inflation is real, and believe that understanding how it affects buying power is critical to the retiree.

I piped up because I believe your original post here contained two factual errors:

1) "retired 20 years ago with $800k, slightly more than your inlaws with no pension"

That's just wrong. 800k 20 years ago is equivalent to about 1.2 million today. Your portfolio was *50% larger* than the OPs FIL.

"2) We have $l million now and we are still spending"

The implication being that you have more money. No, your portfolio is worth less than when you retired. That is not a problem at all, but, well, its math. 2 + 2 is not 5.

Point 1) is particularly germane to this thread, since you had quite a bit more in investments than the OP's FIL (and retired later I think). The larger portfolio gave you more substantially more room to handle financial problems that might come up.

I'm fine if you want to say that a retiree's portfolio may not have to keep up with inflation. In fact, that's obviously true -- if inflation is muted, a portfolio could lose purchasing power over the years due to modest real returns and withdrawals, but still safely support a 30 year (or more retirement). In times like the late 60s to early 80s, inflation was a much scarier problem.

But I think it is important for people thinking about retirement to consider the impact of inflation. Otherwise they will make mistakes like putting all their money into "safe" investments, and not understand that their non-COLAed pension is going to buy a lot less food after 20 years.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:23 am

AlohaJoe wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:45 pm
I'm not clear on what is "actionable" out of all of this?

Is the OP going to somehow force them to go back to work?

Is the OP going to sit down with the parents and...what, exactly? Tell them that he's not comfortable with their decision to retire without consulting him? Ask them to walk him through their complete retirement financial plan, complete with spending goals and contingency plans so he can okay it?

I...just don't see those as things that happen in the real world.

The only actionable thing I can really see is that the OP sits down with his wife and says, "Just FYI, I am telling you now that I refuse to ever financially help out your parents. It was their decision to stop working when they were physically able to. They made their bed and now have to lay in it."

But I just struggle to see how that conversation with the wife about her parents goes that is likely to be useful or constructive? It seems far more likely that she becomes defensive and angry, with a reply similar to what many posters have had.

The OP is worried, that is clear. The only course of action seem to be to figure out how to let go of that worry. If the OP can find a way to have a constructive conversation with his wife about the situation, that seems like the best course.
You are probably right. However, the OP might have learned where he has gaps in his knowledge, both in retirement planning skills and information about the inlaw situation.

For example, a casual conversation about how they plan on handling healthcare. Heck, I'd be interested in that answer even if I wasn't worried about having to cover their LTC costs.

His wife could sit down (*without* the OP) and find out generally how the parents expenses are going, what kind of investments they have, etc. Certainly if there is any expectation from the parents that the OP and his wife will bail them out then I'd want to know that. And that discussion needs to come from the OP's wife I'd think.

There is also the POA talk and so forth. Some of which can naturally lead to a better understanding of what the full financial situation is. That sort of discussion needs to start happening anyway, in an ideal world ....

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Frisco Kid » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:21 am

Well OP, you asked so here goes. Fortunately for you , you were raised with a silver spoon in your mouth that appears to still be in place. Count your blessings, I suggest you spend the time you are now using worrying about your in-laws to perhaps become an avid seeker of wisdom which is something your in laws have done but you are unable to see. I hope you interpret many of the responses you receive here as a learning experience. Best of luck to you.

timemoveson
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by timemoveson » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 am

printer86 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:46 pm
Sheepdog wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 pm
Don't suffer. Your in laws are not likely to either. I retired 20 years ago with $800k, slightly more than your inlaws with no pension. I had a heart attack 3 months before retiring. I could not get LTC either. Oh, my God, how am I going to live? So, I took a trip to Scotland, Ireland and England. and over the years to the Orient, Russia, other Eastern Europe countries, Asia, Great Britain again, South and Central America, the Orient again, multiple Caribbean countries and several cruises. We bought autos regularly including 3 sport cars for fun We attend the arts, professional football season ticket holders, etc. We donated to charities regularly and more as we aged. We have $l million now and we are still spending. I don't think my kids are worrying about us spending everything. Geez, man. Cool it.
I love when Sheepdog chimes in. Wish you the best.
Agreed, fantastic post. Thank you.

TN_Boy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:39 am

timemoveson wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:07 am
printer86 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:46 pm
Sheepdog wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 pm
Don't suffer. Your in laws are not likely to either. I retired 20 years ago with $800k, slightly more than your inlaws with no pension. I had a heart attack 3 months before retiring. I could not get LTC either. Oh, my God, how am I going to live? So, I took a trip to Scotland, Ireland and England. and over the years to the Orient, Russia, other Eastern Europe countries, Asia, Great Britain again, South and Central America, the Orient again, multiple Caribbean countries and several cruises. We bought autos regularly including 3 sport cars for fun We attend the arts, professional football season ticket holders, etc. We donated to charities regularly and more as we aged. We have $l million now and we are still spending. I don't think my kids are worrying about us spending everything. Geez, man. Cool it.
I love when Sheepdog chimes in. Wish you the best.
Agreed, fantastic post. Thank you.
I like Sheepdog's posts also, except by ignoring the difference between nominal and real values, some of his conclusions are questionable. For example, he retired with about 1.5 times the money that the OP's inlaws have, not "slightly more." That is a big difference (and he was also medicare eligible then, incidentally).

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by deltaneutral83 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:44 am

Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
Fourwaystreet - In terms of the health concerns, I meant that in the context of preventing them from getting a Long Term Care policy, not anything that would prevent them from working. I think the reason they denied him was because of a recent cortisone shot in his knee. No clue why that would prevent someone from getting an LTC policy, but I didn't push it.

Trustquestioner - The core value is not being born to wealthy parents. The core value I was referring to is that of hard work, saving, self sufficiency and not relying on children or the taxpayer to step in if you have not planned properly (that being said, I do think entitlement programs are absolutely needed for certain groups (veterans, the sick, etc.), but that is another conversation). From the responses on this thread, I seem to be overreacting quite a bit, and out of touch.

I do appreciate those who have provided constructive advice and those who have helped me understand that I'm coming across poorly, and that my perspective is offensive. It is good feedback for me. In a way I am impressed that so many of you would willingly support your in laws with no resentment if they were to run out of money. My father always HOUNDED me about being self sufficient and shamed those who did not pull their own weight. I realize now I have carried those (somewhat arrogant) values with me into adulthood, and would be wise to adopt a softer perspective.
Everything you've mentioned is to be discussed with your wife and that's fine, NOT your in laws. You've ruffled some feathers of some older (more conservative folks with their money) BH's and they are utterly mortified that some whipper snapper would say what you've been thinking. You've also sparked some jealousy as this is the first thread where the gift exclusion has actually drawn criticism, as if you are supposed to not accept it from your parents? Anyway, just clean up the verbiage you use with your spouse, and keep your Personal Financial Statement private from everyone, including family members, until the time comes. This is one of those topics that pre marriage counselors go over (to many of the BHs mortification) which is a cross between finance and in laws, two pillars that determine a lot of success/failure in marriages. Your own situation with your in laws doesn't seem as dire as you have made it out to be (and the boys here have killed your for it in very entertaining fashion!) but nevertheless, your spouse and you are the only ones to decide if anything becomes actionable in the not so near future.

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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by cheese_breath » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:16 am

deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:44 am
Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
Fourwaystreet - In terms of the health concerns, I meant that in the context of preventing them from getting a Long Term Care policy, not anything that would prevent them from working. I think the reason they denied him was because of a recent cortisone shot in his knee. No clue why that would prevent someone from getting an LTC policy, but I didn't push it.

Trustquestioner - The core value is not being born to wealthy parents. The core value I was referring to is that of hard work, saving, self sufficiency and not relying on children or the taxpayer to step in if you have not planned properly (that being said, I do think entitlement programs are absolutely needed for certain groups (veterans, the sick, etc.), but that is another conversation). From the responses on this thread, I seem to be overreacting quite a bit, and out of touch.

I do appreciate those who have provided constructive advice and those who have helped me understand that I'm coming across poorly, and that my perspective is offensive. It is good feedback for me. In a way I am impressed that so many of you would willingly support your in laws with no resentment if they were to run out of money. My father always HOUNDED me about being self sufficient and shamed those who did not pull their own weight. I realize now I have carried those (somewhat arrogant) values with me into adulthood, and would be wise to adopt a softer perspective.
Everything you've mentioned is to be discussed with your wife and that's fine, NOT your in laws. You've ruffled some feathers of some older (more conservative folks with their money) BH's and they are utterly mortified that some whipper snapper would say what you've been thinking. You've also sparked some jealousy as this is the first thread where the gift exclusion has actually drawn criticism, as if you are supposed to not accept it from your parents? Anyway, just clean up the verbiage you use with your spouse, and keep your Personal Financial Statement private from everyone, including family members, until the time comes. This is one of those topics that pre marriage counselors go over (to many of the BHs mortification) which is a cross between finance and in laws, two pillars that determine a lot of success/failure in marriages. Your own situation with your in laws doesn't seem as dire as you have made it out to be (and the boys here have killed your for it in very entertaining fashion!) but nevertheless, your spouse and you are the only ones to decide if anything becomes actionable in the not so near future.
+1
Good post. I think we've beat up the poor guy enough.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Bogle1981
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by Bogle1981 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:23 am

Thanks all.

One thing I will mention... I am not a man, I am a woman, and these are my husbands parents I am talking about. I don't want to ruffle more feathers by suggesting that this makes a difference, but despite the strides our society has made for women and equality, there is still a slight stigma in my social circle when a woman is bringing much more to the table financially than her male spouse. I don't really see it this way, but many people do based on the side comments and back handed compliments I frequently hear (ones that used to not bother me, but clearly they are taking a toll, as much as I hate to admit it).

Anyway, those who say I am worrying too much are probably right, and I'm sure my in laws will be fine. They are a very sweet couple. To those who gave actual financial advice and options for what our options are - THANK YOU! When I wrote this original post, I wanted to get three things out of it:
1. Do they have enough? I know it is hard to tell based on limited info, but it seems the majority think YES.
2. What are our options if they run out? A few answered and thank you for your commentary, it was very helpful.
3. How much should I push this? I heard all of you loud and clear, and the consensus seems to be to not push it at all. I was never planning on bringing it up with my in-laws; this had more to do with how much I should push it with my spouse. He seems somewhat open to talking about it.

Moral of the story, I guess I need to choose my battles carefully, and now I understand that this might not be a battle worth choosing. Thank you to all for your thoughtful and reflective responses. Thankful to have an educated forum and community where I can go for advice! :beer

jharkin
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by jharkin » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:48 am

Bogle1981 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:48 pm

Here is my concern: I was surprised that they decided to retire at 62 with what I consider to be barely enough to scrape by.
You have a very different definition of "scrape by" than 90% of American households. The average retiree basically has social security and home equity to live on. Maybe some small IRA. Many dont even have that. And they get by just fine. They just dont live in McMansions and take Eurpoean cruises.

And Im not just talking statistics from a news article. My retired MIL lives right near me in the Boston subrurbs, has a nice condo in a golf community and basically lives on her 20k SS check. She doesn't starve. Even went though a bout of cancer and Medicare+supplement basically covered it all.

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willthrill81
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:01 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:07 pm
Bogle1981 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:55 am
The main thing concerning me while writing the post was not so much helping them out here and there with minor expenses, but more so the risk of having to pay for nursing home care / assisted living, which often runs $8-10k a month, as it did with both of my grandparents. They were well equipped to pay for it, but I do not think my in laws would be able to afford that. So what do we do then? What are our options? Do we need to factor this into our financial plan?
Read up about Medicaid. That's what people with no means do when they need nursing home care. In the case of your in-laws, they would first spen down all their assets, potentially sell their house, then when they run out of funds, go on Medicaid.

So instead of you supporting them, they and you would rely on other taxpayers to support them. And if that is your desire, then you don't need to factor any support into your financial plan. Your wife may have a different opinion.
Statistically, it's very unlikely that they will spend down all of their assets on LTC. There's only about a 1/6 chance that at least one of them will need any form of LTC for longer than three years.

Sufficit diei malitia sua.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

financiallycurious
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by financiallycurious » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:20 pm

I have anxiety about money and I understand your concerns. For now, maybe you could make sure that your savings are in the correct buckets so that you're not in a position to compromise your immediate family's financial security to help them if they do run out of money. For example, keep maxing out your 401k, fully fund 529 plans for your kids, pay down your mortgage, put gifted money from your family that is intended for your kids into a trust for them, and then lastly save in an after tax account that is liquid and available. Then, if your fears materialize in the future, you'll be able to help your in laws without sacrificing your immediate family's security because your needs will be met and you'll be spending discretionary money either from current income or an after tax account (which is funded last in the above suggestion), which probably won't feel as stressful as spending retirement money or college money.

SrGrumpy
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Re: In Laws Retirement Nest Egg

Post by SrGrumpy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:56 pm

^ +1. I always trust a woman's instincts, and understand your concerns (which hopefully will turn out to be unnecessary). The recommendation to put a little aside for them each year in an emergency fund (hopefully also unnecessary) is a good idea if it will make you sleep better at night.

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