Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

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amitb00
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by amitb00 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:26 pm

With that kind of work hours, and if you are feeling that, one should quit.
Now looking at your NW and expense, you are already FI. If you still want to work, you can but that is really optional. Congratulations for your success.

GeoffD
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by GeoffD » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:40 pm

camillus wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:17 pm
If quitting is on the table then getting fired could (should?) be on the table too.

How about having a conversation with your manager saying that you need to reduce your hours to 50/wk or whatever number is doable for you.

If you get fired, you don't want to work there anyways. Plain and simple.

I would not trade 8 years of my life for a marginal gain in luxury.

Personally, I would be long retired.
With that kind of net worth, I wouldn't even have the talk. I'd just start working 40 to 45/wk and not work weekends. It's not the OP's problem that the manager is insisting on a 'work until you drop' culture when the rest of the company isn't doing that. Particularly when they spent many years previously working 40 to 50 hours at that company. Just give them an honest 40 hours and answer up to truly urgent work emails off hours. They're staring at a gigantic wrongful termination suit if they fire you for not working 100 hours per week. With that kind of work demand, I imagine that group has big turnover problems. Nobody can sustain that kind of work load for years at a time.

RW73
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by RW73 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm

Camillus:

To me, a methodical and graceful resignation will come across better to other employers than getting fired. Should I end up never working again, then I agree.

There is no way to reduce hours. The nature of the work is driven by requests from above.....senior management requests data, lost of it. Cutting back on our hours means cutting back on the material they want (need, from their perspective). They will not cut back on what they want. Whoever doesn't deliver, they just shove us out of the way and bring in someone else. As I hinted above, a fair number of people beg to get into these roles because of the very large upside.

Example: my team got a request Friday evening (9/14) to develop a very detailed analysis for review at 7 am Monday morning. As I sit at work now writing this reply (which is very therapeutic), the entire group is in our two offices all day Saturday, all day Sunday working on it (two different cities). By all day, my group (in my city) stopped working just before midnight last night. The expectation is a solid, polished product tomorrow. This repeats itself over and over, though it's usually not a fire-drill and we know in advance what is needed....it just takes a lot of work to deliver it.

Bottom line - cutting hours would be seen close to saying "i quit".
Last edited by RW73 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Devil's Advocate
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Devil's Advocate » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:55 pm

I cannot imagine those hours are very productive. Find a way to cut back or leave.

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Devil's Advocate
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Devil's Advocate » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:57 pm

RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm
Camillus:

To me, a methodical and graceful resignation will come across better to other employers than getting fired. Should I end up never working again, then I agree.

There is no way to reduce hours. The nature of the work is driven by requests from above.....senior management requests data, lost of it. Cutting back on our hours means cutting back on the material they want (need, from their perspective). They will not cut back on what they want. Whoever doesn't deliver, they just shove us out of the way and bring in someone else. As I hinted above, a fair number of people beg to get into these roles because of the very large upside.

Example: my team got a request Friday evening (9/14) to develop a very detailed analysis for review at 7 am Monday morning. As I sit at work now writing this reply (which is very therapeutic), the entire group is in our two offices all day Saturday, all day Sunday working on it (two different cities). By all day, my group (in my city) stopped working just before midnight last night. The expectation is a solid, polished product tomorrow. This repeats itself over and over, though it's usually not a fire-drill and we know in advance what is needed....it just takes a lot of work to deliver it.

Bottom line - cutting hours would be seen close to saying "i quit".
I guess you answered your question then. Good luck finding your new employment! Get out before you are carried out.

stereotaxis
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by stereotaxis » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:00 pm

Congratulations on reaching those impressive financial numbers.

I work in medicine and have had stretches where I worked similar hours that you currently do. I empathize with you and know that working hours like that can have negative effects on personality, family and health. With the specter of taking care of a child throughout adulthood, I can understand why you think you might not have enough saved and why you think it is worth the sacrifice of maintaining your current position.

But consider this: You are at the age when a small but significant number of people get serious illnesses from out of the blue. Would your retirement calculus change if you knew either you or your wife were to be diagnosed with cancer in the next 5 years?

I have had a colleague get cancer in their 30's. I have had a colleague on the verge of emptying nesting and finding out that their spouse had metastatic (stage iv) cancer. Both regret missing out on their lives and their families. I have had a friend retire early in his 50's, still on an upward executive trajectory and seemingly in good health. I asked him why and he said that his wife was diagnosed with cancer 10 years ago (now in remission) and that experience colored his decision to retire early.

I hope you and your family members stay in good health, but none of us are guarantee a long healthy life into our 80's.

RW73
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by RW73 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:20 pm

These numerous posts have been helpful and probing. Thanks for taking the time to provide your thoughts and suggestions.

kjvmartin
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by kjvmartin » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:30 pm

"When you coming' home dad I don't know when, but we'll get together then.... We'll have a good time then!!"

I don't know how you do it. I really start to miss my kids if I'm out of town even a little bit without them. The hours you're working it sounds like you're gone before they are up and home after they're in bed.

RW73
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by RW73 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:42 pm

kjvmartin - yes you are correct. I don't see them much.

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nedsaid
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by nedsaid » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:45 pm

RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm
Camillus:

To me, a methodical and graceful resignation will come across better to other employers than getting fired. Should I end up never working again, then I agree.

There is no way to reduce hours. The nature of the work is driven by requests from above.....senior management requests data, lost of it. Cutting back on our hours means cutting back on the material they want (need, from their perspective). They will not cut back on what they want. Whoever doesn't deliver, they just shove us out of the way and bring in someone else. As I hinted above, a fair number of people beg to get into these roles because of the very large upside.

Example: my team got a request Friday evening (9/14) to develop a very detailed analysis for review at 7 am Monday morning. As I sit at work now writing this reply (which is very therapeutic), the entire group is in our two offices all day Saturday, all day Sunday working on it (two different cities). By all day, my group (in my city) stopped working just before midnight last night. The expectation is a solid, polished product tomorrow. This repeats itself over and over, though it's usually not a fire-drill and we know in advance what is needed....it just takes a lot of work to deliver it.

Bottom line - cutting hours would be seen close to saying "i quit".
I think you have answered your own question. I would quit, take some time off, and then find another job with less stress and less hours. Your employer is taking advantage of you, pure and simple. If it turned out that you developed a health problem, you have to ask yourself if your company would stick with you. My guess is not. My guess is that you would be tossed overboard the moment they felt you were not useful to them anymore. Sad but true. No reason to be loyal anymore, sad but true. You have to look after your family's interests first.
A fool and his money are good for business.

fanmail
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by fanmail » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:00 pm

student wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:09 pm
Now that you have posted the numbers, please retire and enjoy life.
yep done

fanmail
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by fanmail » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:16 pm

Put another way, you’re a decamillionaire who is slaving away for less than $100/hour. You’ve got serious FU money so utilize it.

moghopper
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by moghopper » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:30 pm

BogleWogle wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:18 pm
The only question is how sizable of a legacy you want to leave for your 2 kids.
And will that legacy be in memories, or money.

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StevieG72
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by StevieG72 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:46 pm

Those are some ridiculous hours!

I would be looking for another job. Problem is you have no time to look!

With your net worth you can call it quits, retire early, focus on your wife and kids. Spend time with your boys before they launch, you will regret not doing so otherwise.

You may find yourself single if you continue to neglect your wife, ask me how I know!

Congratulations on working hard and saving. You should enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.

Lexi
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Lexi » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:47 pm

I once had a job with similar demands but not that many hours. I had two rules based on my sense of my own diminishing (approaching negative) productivity:
1. I will not work past midnight
2. I will not work both days of a weekend
I don’t advocate these rules but rather suggest that you can set some kind of limits.

In a later job the most important work often took place over weekends. Rule 2 then changed to:
2. If i work both days of a weekend i will take a close other day off

I suggest that you immediately start to set some limits even if they are very slight. Then i think you should get a complete physical. If you have any health problems that require a slowdown period, take that time so that you have time to breathe and think. Right now you work so much that you don’t have time to find your bearings. After that, i would probably look for another, more reasonable job.

Katietsu
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Katietsu » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:11 pm

Option 1: Stay with the company and move back to a 50 hour work week in another position. Accept potentially never being promoted again. Assess the likelihood of being able to stay around to retirement age in a role that does not make you dread going to work.

Option 2: Get a new job now. Half as much money for half as much time.

Continuing to work 90+ hours for eight years is frankly unlikely to happen even if you want to do so. Do you know anyone at your company who is 55 with a family (even without the special needs aspect) who has kept up a 90+ hour schedule for 13 years? I am not going to say that this person does not exist anywhere but I would guess “exceedingly rare” would be likely. My sister, who is your age, was working 75 hours a week plus helping with the kids. Her family doctor sent her to a cardiologist. Fortunately everything came out all right. But the doctor basically said that almost 50 year olds surviving on little sleep, diet sodas and stress could not get away with it the way a thirty or forty year old could.

Also, would it be possible to cut your expenses with a new job? Maybe a LCOL area? Maybe the need for less outside paid services?

RW73
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by RW73 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Thanks Katietsu,

Spouse and I have thought deeply about expenses. We have clear prioritized list of what to cut/trim in a lower paying job, or no job. For sure, we could cut back if we needed to. Another post referenced that my wife is bearing the burden of the load for raising (special needs) kids, and that is true. We have a person that helps and we wouldn't need as much (if any) of their time, although I wouldn't characterize that helpers cost as very high. I come back to, though, I don't have a good go-by for what costs we might encounter years/decades into the future with our kids.....To be conservative I am assuming that it could be a lot, and that money is untouchable (uncuttable). That's the unique unknown in my situation, separate from the risks we all face with market, inflation, and so on. There's a irony here - I am working so hard to ensure I can cover their medical/other special needs, but in so doing, I miss the "now" time.

chipperd
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by chipperd » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:51 pm

OP: I certainly appreciate your concerns regarding unknown future needs of teens with special needs. In my line of work I work with adolescents and young adults with special needs. Perhaps contacting your state agency to find out projected costs? Or maybe there is some kind of health care insurance that could be purchased to free you up from that concern and allow you to make a decision that's best for the now?

tim1999
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by tim1999 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:55 pm

RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:51 pm
My commute is very short, not an issue.
You might as well just sleep under your desk with those hours.

amitb00
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by amitb00 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:01 pm

OP, you don’t need additional money and can survive well on current nest egg without any need to reduce expenses. Quit here. Take another gig, if you are bored. But it should be on your terms.

RW73
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by RW73 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:35 pm

chipperd - I had not considered contacting state agencies for cost go-bys, I appreciate that suggestion. I have looked at what type of health care insurance there is available, in tandem with potential special needs trusts. Working with an attorney, but early in the analyses on that.

Dottie57
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:40 pm

Leave your job. It will kill you.
You have more than enough.

Good luck.

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camillus
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by camillus » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:46 pm

RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm
To me, a methodical and graceful resignation will come across better to other employers than getting fired. Should I end up never working again, then I agree.
It seems to me that you have some difficulty setting boundaries, proudly saying "I have never quit anything" when hardly anyone here on this board - including a disproportionate number of high performers - would tolerate your conditions.

To me, you should be able to "methodically and gracefully" insist on boundaries at work. Why?
1) You have 25 years with this company
2) You have two special needs children
3) You have 8 years left until full pension, and would like to stay with the company in some capacity
4) You have reasonable concerns about literally surviving another 8 years at this pace
RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:39 pm
I come back to, though, I don't have a good go-by for what costs we might encounter years/decades into the future with our kids.....To be conservative I am assuming that it could be a lot, and that money is untouchable (uncuttable)
This is a linchpin. You need to talk to a lawyer or CPA(?). Here is a list of google search results of bogleheads for "special needs." I'm guessing you will need to read this at work: https://www.google.com/search?sitesearc ... cial+needs
:wink:

There might be some advantages, like putting appreciated assets into special needs trusts. Just imagining here.

Anyways, with 10 million +, using the safe withdrawal rate of 4% = $400k per year, without dipping into principal too much.
That means you can sustain your $200k lifestyle indefinitely, immediately start paying each child $100k/yr, and when you and your wife die, each child gets more than 5 million.

You should be able to squeak by :beer

So, perhaps you need to talk to a CPA/Lawyer/expert who specializes in special needs trusts and can also handle spitballing early retirement.

I want to return here at the end of this post to the idea that you insisting on professional boundaries is the definition of integrity, method, and grace. I wish you were treated better at work here nearing the end of your career. You are a very hard and valuable worker.
Last edited by camillus on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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greg24
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by greg24 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:59 pm

Dude. Quit.

Traveler
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Traveler » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:11 pm

I'm always fascinated when people say they work 15-20 hour days 6-7 days a week. And frankly, it's hard for me to even believe.
Here is a hypothetical schedule:
Up at 5:30
Logged in at work at 6:00
Work straight through, no lunch break, until 18:00
Home and dinner eaten by 19:00
Logged back in at 19:00 and work until 23:59

And on Saturday, logged in at 6:00, logging out at 21:00, no breaks
Sunday is free, yippee!

This is an absurd schedule and then you say you have a $10M net worth at age 47.

My only question is why?!

stoptothink
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by stoptothink » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:20 pm

Traveler wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:11 pm
I'm always fascinated when people say they work 15-20 hour days 6-7 days a week. And frankly, it's hard for me to even believe.
Here is a hypothetical schedule:
Up at 5:30
Logged in at work at 6:00
Work straight through, no lunch break, until 18:00
Home and dinner eaten by 19:00
Logged back in at 19:00 and work until 23:59

And on Saturday, logged in at 6:00, logging out at 21:00, no breaks
Sunday is free, yippee!

This is an absurd schedule and then you say you have a $10M net worth at age 47.

My only question is why?!
Exactly. OP has spent most of the thread trying to justify why they need such a high level of financial resources...IMO, they haven't done a good job. I have had this exact same discussion with my boss, who is worth 9-figures, but at the expense of his family and his health. He's 55 (but looks 70 and has failing health), travels ~300 days/yr and has for close to a decade now, and doesn't even know his two teenage sons. He says the entire extended family is financially dependent on him so he has to continue building the business and his nest egg. It's hard for me not to look at him sideways; that can easily be remedied and in all honesty, IMO, it is more about ego than anything. OP, you are clearly miserable, so stop; your family will be fine financially and they would all be happier with a happier and healthier you.

david99
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by david99 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:33 pm

Find another job with reasonable hours or retire. Your 10 million won't do you any good if get sick or die. You're not doing your family any favors by working all the time and not being around for them. You're also not doing yourself any favors by working so many hours and not having any fun or downtime.

Congrats on saving so much money.

Doohop65
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Doohop65 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:34 pm

I don’t know that you are ready to walk away but I am going to tell you a little story that may give you some perspective.

About Christmas time last year my DW’S grandmother passed away. She was an interesting woman with a tremendous amount of witty things to say.

I remember seeing her in the casket and thinking to myself, “self, what are you doing with your life”. I worked a job that paid me well by my lcol standards. It also required more travel away from my young children than I liked and didn’t really fulfill me.

That very day I made up my mind to find a way to do something I would be passionate about and be there more for my family.

This summer I left my job to start my own consulting business. I make less money but I can tell you I am much happier. Even my DW commented the other day that my disposition has changed.

I help coach my sons flag football team now that I have more time and make the time to play in the yard with the kids after school. Money can’t replace that priceless time.

You have more than you will ever need. You can’t buy time with your family. I urge you to make a change.

student
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by student » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:08 pm

Doohop65 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:34 pm
I don’t know that you are ready to walk away but I am going to tell you a little story that may give you some perspective.

About Christmas time last year my DW’S grandmother passed away. She was an interesting woman with a tremendous amount of witty things to say.

I remember seeing her in the casket and thinking to myself, “self, what are you doing with your life”. I worked a job that paid me well by my lcol standards. It also required more travel away from my young children than I liked and didn’t really fulfill me.

That very day I made up my mind to find a way to do something I would be passionate about and be there more for my family.

This summer I left my job to start my own consulting business. I make less money but I can tell you I am much happier. Even my DW commented the other day that my disposition has changed.

I help coach my sons flag football team now that I have more time and make the time to play in the yard with the kids after school. Money can’t replace that priceless time.

You have more than you will ever need. You can’t buy time with your family. I urge you to make a change.
Very insightful.

SoAnyway
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by SoAnyway » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:15 pm

SoAnyway wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:32 am
RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:40 am
I have been purposefully vague about what I do - I don’t want to divulge the name of the company, or the group within. ....
I have run LOTS of numbers. I’ve done a lot of analysis myself…..and I’ve worked with my advisors (stress tests, monte carlo, etc)....
[T]he sacrifice is huge and, according to my analysis, unnecessary in most cases.
OP, there's no need to divulge the company or group or whatever successful strategy it's pursuing. As you say, you've already run lots of numbers, done various analyses, consulted advisors, etc. If you shared the info all y'all are analyzing, maybe we could weigh in and/or pressure-test it. If that's not what you're looking for, I respect that. If that's the case, though, how can we help?
Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it sounds like you're seeking validation for your conclusion in red above that the sacrifice is "unnecessary". Without more info, though, anything we can offer are just uninformed opinions based on limited facts/data, no? :confused
OP, thank you for providing the additional info in your subsequent posts re. your employer culture and financial/family picture; the context helps greatly in providing (hopefully) more useful guidance to you. I recognize that there are some unique factors in your case that make this a particularly challenging decision for you and your wife. You’ve already received some great advice; the posts from Katietsu and Soul.in.Progress seemed particularly germane. I apologize in advance for the length of this post. My only intent is to try to help you and your family – and by extension, anyone reading in a similar situation and of similar mind.

In your initial post, you said you were considering quitting your job and going to one in a smaller company that is about half the (current 90+ weekly) hours and about half the (~$525k incl. RSUs annual) pay. You asked for the forum’s thoughts if we “have advice, or might have faced a similar situation”. I have both.

First, I gather from your subsequent post that you don’t have the offer in hand but would instead seek such a position. I’m pretty conservative and would encourage most not to quit without having a job offer in hand, but your situation is unique. I would encourage you to write up your letter of resignation and submit it. Do it as soon as you and your wife have laid out your mental/emotional/financial/physical plans for what you will do for your first 3 months of freedom. I don’t know you, but from your posts you strike me as a man who likes having a plan – and a Plan B, and a Plan C, and a Plan D….and oh btw what’s Plan R? - and I mean that as a compliment, hahaha. :happy As for a “smaller” company, many small start-ups are even more intense so be cautious. That said, it’s pretty clear you’ll do your due diligence. SoAnyway….

Based on your current financial situation, I concur that your conclusion in red above is indeed correct for someone at your net worth, with your personal/life values as best I can tell, and lifestyle/spending habits, even with the unique specifics of your kids and your own health (which I’m concerned about – see below). It’s obvious from your posts that you have planned/plotted/analyzed/simulated probably just about every possible scenario. (I’m guessing that this is what you do in some sense for your company, which is what makes you and your team so valuable, but I digress.) I also realize that you’ve wisely included in your analyses a worst-case scenario of quitting and not being able to secure another job ever again. Frankly, even though job-hunting has changed radically from 25 years ago, I think that’s highly unlikely. Even if it were to happen, it’s clear from your posts that you and your wife have a VERY strong, 2+ decade-long track record of being very disciplined in your financial habits (kudos to you both), and you’ve already thought through the changes you’d need to make if the “perfect storm” were to occur - and I’ve no doubt that if needed, you’d do them. For the moment, please focus on all those other (99%ish?) analyses/simulations that show you’ll be just fine.

Second, you said in your OP that “If I were to walk away from current job, I would lose: Pension, Restricted Stock, Medical Plan.” Let’s set aside Medical Plan for the moment; I’ll get to that in a minute. It sounds like the pension/RSU dollars might be significant. However, given your values - never set out to be extremely wealthy, just comfortable; managed “lifestyle creep”/not a “keep up with the Joneses” type, etc. – it’s only money and as others have pointed out you have plenty for your needs/wants (even including the planning for your kids’ futures based on what you’ve shared), esp. if you secure a job w/healthcare benefits at ½ or even way less than your current earned income. I’d ask you to set up another analysis: It’s harder to get concrete numbers for these but work with me here - Just because they can’t be reduced to concrete numbers does NOT mean they’re less important; indeed the opposite is often true. Make the best assumptions you can as to the $ cost to YOU of each component in the following statement: “If I were NOT to walk away from current job, I would lose: ________.” Think about things like: Your sanity; your relationships with your wife, your kids, your extended family; your memories of time spent with them; your health deterioration and possibly shortened life expectancy (see below). Just because something can’t be reduced to a concrete number doesn’t mean we should just ignore it and assume zero value, right?

Third, it is true that if you quit now, you will no longer have access to your employer’s healthcare plan at the (presumably subsidized) current rates. However, unless they’re exempt – which I doubt based on what you’ve shared – you will have COBRA access for at least 18 months. It ain’t cheap, but you’ll have it. There might also be ACA options, depending on what the current administration does (against forum rules to speculate). I’m not familiar with the Texas exchange, but it would be something to look into, even if ineligible for subsidies. That would allow you to compare the exchange costs vs. COBRA costs for healthcare coverage for your family for at least the next 18 months, and give you breathing room while you seek out your next job with healthcare benefits. (You can put that on your 3-month plan “to do” list, lol.) Bottom line: As you know, you NEED healthcare coverage, OP, esp. with two teens with special needs, and the stress that you’ve been enduring. This is probably the #1 wild card for those of us who've reached financial independence and are considering retiring before Medicare-eligibility. (Again, against forum rules to discuss why this great country we live in is the only industrialized nation on the planet that puts its citizens in this position w/r/t healthcare.) I don’t know your kids’ or wife’s anticipated healthcare needs other than “the usual”, and it’s none of my business. However, you said you’re in average to below-average health – That doesn't surprise me given your work schedule (not judging!) - When on earth would you have time for a workout? I’m guessing it’s been “a while” since you had a full physical/healthcare work-up as you’ve been admirably – but perhaps to your and your family’s long-term detriment – “muscling through”. That alone is cause for concern: The clinical data is unmistakable on the negative long-term health effects of chronic stress, sleep deprivation, presumably “less than ideal” diet under your work/life conditions, etc. (Run a few google searches and you’ll see.) If you quit your job now, hopefully you’ll have headed off any permanent long-term damage to your health and life expectancy; if not, at your age you’re taking a HUGE risk. Factor that into the calculation I suggested above, btw. Katietsu and others are correct: Even after years of “muscling through” with no really noticeable effects, there (sometimes quite suddenly) comes a time when we have to face that we can’t keep up as well as we always have. As K. put it:
Katietsu wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:49 am
As someone about 5 years older than you, I will say that DH and I both feel we peaked around your age as far as the ability to pull off those heavy workloads for more than a few days at a time. I remember a parent saying the same thing and not really understanding at the time.

So my warning to you is that even though you probably feel now that you can keep up as well as you ever have for the last couple decades, there is a good chance that you just plain will not be able to do it for another eight years. Best to rearrange your life now for a career situation that will be possible to maintain in your fifties.
How do I know? I’m also about 5 years older than you, I similarly never cared about building vast wealth/always LBMM, and I worked for years in a similar environment as yours – actually worse (100+ hour weeks, taking a quick catnap under my desk at 3am, less comp. than yours, etc.). It’s hard for someone who’s never done it to understand, but at the time (I was 28 when I started the insanity, and did it for the next 20 years), I loved it. Everyone on my teams took tremendous pride in always being able to deliver, no matter how impossible the demands from the C-suite; NO ONE else in the company could “out-stamina” our team; we were all “adrenaline/stress junkies” to some extent; we spent so much time together/knew each other so well that they became in some weird way like "family", etc. etc. My company's culture was similar to what you've described as far as seeking less-demanding roles within it, very black/white on that front, etc. ('nuff said). Bottom line: Finally, I hit the wall. Physically and emotionally. Suddenly, I didn't love it anymore and I realized what I'd lose if I kept it up. Fortunately, I took the right corrective actions. Based on my doctors' guidance, I hope I stopped in time. I encourage you to do the same, for yourself and your family. Best wishes to all y'all.

RW73
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by RW73 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:21 pm

Doohop65

That’s a gripping story. I am right there at the same point…“what am I doing with my life”. I am blessed not only financially, but with many loving family and friends to support me - and I extend that thanks to users on this site with their feedback.

MathIsMyWayr
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by MathIsMyWayr » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:48 pm

RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:50 pm
Re: question of whether I can move to a less demanding role…..

I think the culture and methods at my company are pretty unique, so I’m a bit concerned if I say much more, it will reveal too much.

I can put it this way, there really is no successfully way to move to another job. Moves are carefully planned and executed, so an unexpected move is disruptive and highly frowned upon. There are a few exceptions that management will allow (example a few years ago: a spouse of an employee was offered a high level government position, so company found employee a job in same city)…..those rare exceptions would not apply to me. From my experience watching this happen, most moves would not be approved or even considered, and the few moves that are granted would taint the employee permanently….they would for sure never get restricted stock again, likely never get a raise again, and….the way our system works…..potentially put current restricted stock at risk and possibly be “worked out of the system”……summary: requesting a move very well might yield the same outcome as resigning.
In your mind, the door to the option of an internal move is closed - does not matter how. Obviously, there are only two options remaining. You have to choose between staying put and getting out. You cannot have both and have to decide to which one to give up. In the end, it will be your decision.

RW73
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by RW73 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:58 pm

SoAnyway
Thanks for your thoughtful input and advice. Your experience is the closest I come across in similarity to mine. I would think you were my colleague, but I know you are not because I can see everyone’s computer right now. I am always speechless when a friend/relative who isn’t around me that much says “No - you don’t work 90+ hours a week…..”.

I’m thinking deeply about your post, and all these posts. Of the many points that capture my attention in your post, the “focus on the other 99%” really speaks to me…I am guilty of worrying too much about the downside…..it’s a round-about way of being protective of my kids, I guess.

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Watty
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Watty » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:23 pm

RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:58 pm
I am guilty of worrying too much about the downside…..it’s a round-about way of being protective of my kids, I guess.
Providing for them financially is important but being around to help them out for a few more decades is probably more important.

Right now you could put 2 million each into a trusts for them and have plenty of money left over for you and your wife to live on.

The financial part of parenting is pretty well taken care of.
Last edited by Watty on Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

keepingitsimple
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by keepingitsimple » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:44 pm

I doubt I can provide a more insightful and well thought out response than SoAnyway has already provided. In the spirit of contributing, I'll add a few minor points though:

1. If you leave your current job, emotionally you'll feel 50 lbs lighter. We often don't fully realize to what we have acclimated until that element is removed. Imagine what it will feel like to truly give your family the time and attention you desire.

2. I purposefully chose the word "leave" above, as apposed to "quit", because I don't view leaving your job as an act of quitting. Rather it is a reallocation of finite resources: your time, energy, attention and life. Exercising the option to reallocate these resources is not quitting.

3. You are in a fortunate financial situation. I would encourage you to take advantage of the freedom-of-choice such a financial situation can provide.

4. If you stay in this position for an additional eight years, which will you place a highest value upon: the pension and benefits you have secured or the unknown moments of life you missed out on because work monopolized your time.

In summary, I feel you already know the choice you need to make and perhaps simply need someone to say it's okay to move on and re-prioritize your life to be more centered and balanced. I'm a stranger and my opinion is only as valuable as the weight you choose to give it, but for what it's worth I'm telling you it's okay to move on and re-balance your life.

cantos
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by cantos » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:56 pm

This is one of the best threads I've read on Bogleheads. :beer

SoAnyway
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by SoAnyway » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:28 pm

RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:58 pm
SoAnyway
Thanks for your thoughtful input and advice. Your experience is the closest I come across in similarity to mine. I would think you were my colleague, but I know you are not because I can see everyone’s computer right now.
My pleasure, OP! And btw, your original post resonated with me. That's why my first response to your OP asked for the additional info; I suspected we'd been in similar boats. BTW, for all we know, I left the group you're currently in, in the very same company, years before you joined, hahaha. THAT would be why I'm not showing up as a current colleague of yours, hahaha.
RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:58 pm
I am always speechless when a friend/relative who isn’t around me that much says “No - you don’t work 90+ hours a week…..”.
I understand, OP. It's impossible to explain to those who've never been there.
My $.02: Don't even try. It's just more minutes you're stealing from your wife and your kids and your health.

Example: Back in the day, one of my teammates related the following story when we were all sitting around a conference table, getting a bit punchy at oh-dark-thirty in the am, having pulled 2 all-nighters in a row: "'So I had to cancel plans to see my Dad this weekend. Backstory: He joined [Fortune top 20-company] back in the 50s right out of college, left every morning after breakfast and was home for dinner with the family at 6pm, was head of my Boy Scout Troop, and retired with the gold watch and pension, sometime last century. So when I told him I've been working 100+ hour weeks and will have to be doing so for the next several weeks to support my family, he answered, 'WHAT? Son, are you SO inefficient and incompetent in your job that you can't get your work done during the normal M-F/9-5 work week??? What kind of son have I raised???''" We all understood his Dad's pov. And we were all rolling on the floor laughing, understanding the challenge of explaining to those who've been "out of the game" for a while that things have changed, um, "a bit."
RW73 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:58 pm
I’m thinking deeply about your post, and all these posts. Of the many points that capture my attention in your post, the “focus on the other 99%” really speaks to me…I am guilty of worrying too much about the downside…..it’s a round-about way of being protective of my kids, I guess.
Yes. THIS. OP. (I'm guilty of the same, btw.) You've got your priorities in order. Don't let "PERFECT" be the enemy of "GOOD". From everything I've seen, you and your wife will NEVER let your kids down. I'm quite certain that if you pull the trigger, you'll all be fine.

EDIT: As I've told many mentees over the years, "Perfection" is a great goal. It's also highly overrated. I gave up on being "Perfect" sometime in the 80s. Best thing I ever did. In addition to saving my sanity, I'm sure it made me a boatload more fun to be around. Perfectionists are SUCH a bore.... :sharebeer "Perfect" is the enemy of "good". Godspeed to you and your family, OP.

gotester2000
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by gotester2000 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:03 am

OP,

You should take another job with normal working hours. You have enough to leave this job today. Keeping more money for the kids is not going to help them(if that is the real reason - I suspect it is also greed to make more money) - the best way you could help them is to assist in developing the qualities that help them stand in life.
By the way, I find it difficult to believe that someone can work 16-17 hours a day for so many years.

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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:26 am

Find a new job (if you want).
$10.5 million net worth, after taxes $6 million.
What is your end goal? Money or getting your life back.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

phisher4
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by phisher4 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:23 am

What makes these posts so compelling is the schadenfreude.

Either: "I make so much less than him but he's miserable."

Or: "I make the same or more than him and don't work so hard."

The bottom line is that the OP has lost perspective. The key to his golden handcuffs are in his pocket but he refuses to use them.

simas
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by simas » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:06 am

stop the madness, set boundaries , evaluate who you are.

two major themes here
1) you are just oozing with Kool-Aid ( we must deliver, we are not quitters, and other BS). very sad (to me) example of abuse where you take a person out of college and indoctrinate them to SUCH a degree that they completely forget of who they are and turn into one of the parts of the machine. are you acting like you are in a cult. STOP!

by being there you have quit on whose most important to you, your family.
if you die tomorrow, 3 weeks from now no one would know (or give a … ) who are or who you were
if you allow yourself to be treated as disposable tool (no boundaries) you will create such destiny.

I fully understand the adrenaline and stress addiction, I was in your shoes as well - working on urgent 4 pm Saturday calls to prep numbers evaluating billion dollar risks as part of negotiations, navigating bunch of NDAs, etc. Guess what ? it was engaging, interesting, well paid, but ultimately a job. Companies come and go, your desires change as well. no one cares right now what I did in year X other than me.


2) take a serious look in the mirror and ask yourself honestly who are you. if the answer is I am a corporate drone and want to be used as such (love it), by all means continue. if the answer is more towards husband, father, son, friend, and many other things, then 16-17 hour day and 40 weekends a year must go. In environments I worked I have seen so many families failing (marriages destroyed) that it could be depressing. Tell C-suite that 'the boss' (your partner) insists on your being home at 7 that is how it is . they can find someone else if they care to, the sky may fall and earth become flat but your rules are not negotiable.


walk away , do not let this kill you.

simas
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by simas » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:14 am

phisher4 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:23 am
The bottom line is that the OP has lost perspective. The key to his golden handcuffs are in his pocket but he refuses to use them.
most major corporations insist and work very hard on such indoctrination. you wear their free polo shirts, learn their acronyms, learn their rule sets, learn to think like an ant in a colony, etc. it is absolute worst in cases where this is the persons first and only job, they simply lack any perspective as they did not see anything other than this megahive. very sad to see. reality is that corporations would dump people like this whenever they wish (internal politics, team loses/wins, restructures) and then you see these beached whales who are in utter shock. later comes regret of WFT I did with my life?!

not my story , but I did spend almost 5 years (10 including acquisition) in one of such very successful megacorps. I still talk to people who either
a) hate it but believe they must stay. (count year to retirement)
b) were kicked out and have major adjustment issues

grkmec
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by grkmec » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:08 am

My two cents, go to management and offer them two options:

1) Look for reduction in work hours to 40-50 hours, either in same group or transfer to different role. Perhaps do what you did before you joined this new group. In exchange, your salary is frozen at $425k, no promotions, you waive all annual bonuses, but you keep your pension, and you work 8 more years.

2) I quit

2pedals
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by 2pedals » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:45 am

Johnny Paycheck has a good classic song for you to sing along to while your write up your resignation.

jminv
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by jminv » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:34 am

simas wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:14 am
phisher4 wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:23 am
The bottom line is that the OP has lost perspective. The key to his golden handcuffs are in his pocket but he refuses to use them.
most major corporations insist and work very hard on such indoctrination. you wear their free polo shirts, learn their acronyms, learn their rule sets, learn to think like an ant in a colony, etc. it is absolute worst in cases where this is the persons first and only job, they simply lack any perspective as they did not see anything other than this megahive. very sad to see. reality is that corporations would dump people like this whenever they wish (internal politics, team loses/wins, restructures) and then you see these beached whales who are in utter shock. later comes regret of WFT I did with my life?!

not my story , but I did spend almost 5 years (10 including acquisition) in one of such very successful megacorps. I still talk to people who either
a) hate it but believe they must stay. (count year to retirement)
b) were kicked out and have major adjustment issues
I've seen these situations more than a few times as both the one letting people go and seeing colleagues in managerial and executive positions being let go as well. The bottom line is that you can be loyal and a great asset to the company, but the company doesn't care and when it's over, what you did for 15 hours a day, 6 days a week or whatever will not have mattered in the bigger scheme of things. Most people are also replaceable, even when they view themselves as indispensible. This sort of realization can be especially shocking for workaholics whose life was the company and whose family life was impacted as a result.

I've also been in the 'golden handcuffs' situation. Leaving was the best thing that happened to me, although it took me some time to view it entirely that way. I chose family life over a very lucrative career with a lot of responsibilities which required being away from home most of the year. My life was 100% work. It's easy to fall into, particularly if you have internalized that you're 'not a quitter' like the OP has. I was the same way. There are very good reasons to quit and by internalizing that mentality, the OP has stayed with something that he might have otherwise had the sensibility to leave.

The other side of the OP's situation, though, is that he's letting himself be used like this. I question whether all the other teammates actually put in 16 hour days and if so, why they do so. Long-term 15-16 hour days are not normal, even in the USA. The closest to this would be Japan and the expat world. When I worked these kinds of hours, it had to do at least in part to the company's expectations that one stay at work or be available to respond to queries at any time in the day or night, even though I could complete my work in a shorter time frame. The expectations issue is an issue in Japan as well where a lot of the extended work hours are more or less unproductive. Since the OP doesn't want to share exactly what they do it's hard to know whether it is a too much work issue or something else. If the OP stays, and it seems that they might, the team needs to collectively come to a realization that they're being exploited to an unreasonable degree and request more resources.

In any case, the OP has enough in assets to do what they want, even with the special needs chidren situation.

Amy2017
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Amy2017 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:32 am

I think it is not always easy to leave a high paying job whether you are FI or not. However, I think your situation is a little different from most people. Although the current estate tax exemption is around 11 million per person, it will expire and could revert back to around 5 million after 2025. For a couple, it will be around 10 million. I am sure you will certainly live past 2025. With your current saving and spending habits, your net worth will definitely grow. So if you stay at your current job, most of the extra money you earn will go to IRS after you die. Some states also have state estate tax. Basically, you sacrifice your life, your health, and your family for other people’s welfare. Maybe I am a selfish person, I don’t quite understand why you want to continue working on this job unless you genuinely enjoy it and don’t mind working voluntarily. It is very likely that the additional money now showing up in your banking accounts will not even get passed to your children. How sad this sound, almost tragic?

Point
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Point » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:39 am

You are there, you can retire or cut back. I’ve been there, it takes a toll on the body, mind and family. Eventually I couldn’t sustain it and my health.

Find a way to move to another unit and cut your hours to <50. Let the RSUs and pension mature. Introduce yourself to your family and get acquainted with life outside work.

If you can move to another unit, retire. Enjoy. It’s not that bad on the other side :-)

Afty
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Afty » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:57 am

When my team's work gets difficult, one of my colleagues reassures us by saying, "Relax. We're not saving lives here." I'm guessing your work isn't saving lives either.* Is what you're getting out of it really worth the cost to your health and family?

*My wife's work is literally saving lives (oncologist), and she doesn't work those hours either.

Jags4186
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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by Jags4186 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:03 pm

OP I think instead of just outright quitting you should go to your manager, tell him the schedule you are willing to work. If he says that isn’t possible, I would then tell him this is the schedule you’re going to work and if that’s unacceptable you will seek a transfer to a different department or they can let you go—but as of that day you’re leaving at 5 and no longer working weekends.

I don’t care how much they pay you any company that expects this is not a good place to work for so I see no reason for you to try to be diplomatic at all.

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Re: Considering Quitting Job - Seeking Advice. Would you do it?

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:09 pm

m@ver1ck wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:26 am
Just stop working those crazy hours. See what happens. Maybe it's just you that has the need to work those crazy hours - and business would still run well enough if you didn't..
+1

Start working 50 hours a week. No weekends. Turn your phone off. Do not put work email on your phone.

Work on the most important work. Leave the rest or delegate.

Two things will happen. 1) There will be an utter collapse. 2) Things will continue and others and yourself will adapt to the new normal.

If 1) happens, you were already prepared to leave. Ask to hire someone else to do the other work you were doing or quit.

You can't work 15-17 hours per day and that much on the weekend. It will kill you. Nothing is that important.
"We are not here to please, but to provoke thoughtfulness." --Unknown Boglehead

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