3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:50 pm
3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Hi- I consider the people on this forum to be very educated and level headed so I wanted your opinion. I made an offer on a home and when the inspector came he informed me the home had 3 layers of roofing shingles. What do you guys think I should do? Pull the offer? Ask for them to put a new roof on? I was running numbers and say the roof cost $10,000 and I reduce my offer by $10k all that gives me is a few dollars less payment each month. It doesn’t fix the fact that the roof has 3 layers. That being said the inspector said the 3rd layer has about a 5-10 year life span. In person, he was very concerned about the 3 layers but in his report he didn’t make a big deal about it which drives me crazy. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
-
- Posts: 6056
- Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:47 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
> That being said the inspector said the 3rd layer has about a 5-10 year life span
Then the house has a functional roof and will be valued at about the same as any comparable house.
Depending on your market, you may not get 10K reduction. The owner has to decide whether someone else will buy at your present offer- or above.
If you bail you have to believe you will find another acceptable house without this issue AND without any others.
Personally- if this was the house I wanted after a long search- I would figure (1) I will probably have 5-10 years before replacement (2) even then maybe spot repairs will keep me going and (3) if that is the only big ticket item in 5-10 years I will be doing well.
Then the house has a functional roof and will be valued at about the same as any comparable house.
Depending on your market, you may not get 10K reduction. The owner has to decide whether someone else will buy at your present offer- or above.
If you bail you have to believe you will find another acceptable house without this issue AND without any others.
Personally- if this was the house I wanted after a long search- I would figure (1) I will probably have 5-10 years before replacement (2) even then maybe spot repairs will keep me going and (3) if that is the only big ticket item in 5-10 years I will be doing well.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I never understood why people put multiple layers of shingles on a roof to save a few bucks - yeah you can put two layers on, but the flashing and the underlayment are more important in my opinion.
Does the roof leak? If not, I wouldn't worry about it at the moment if you really like the house. Try and negotiate a lower price if it makes you feel better. Then you can pull all three layers off and do it right when the time comes for a new roof. Or just wait till a big storm blows a bunch of shingles off because they didnt use long enough nails to penetrate all three layers of shingles and decking and then let the insurance company pay for a new roof.
Does the roof leak? If not, I wouldn't worry about it at the moment if you really like the house. Try and negotiate a lower price if it makes you feel better. Then you can pull all three layers off and do it right when the time comes for a new roof. Or just wait till a big storm blows a bunch of shingles off because they didnt use long enough nails to penetrate all three layers of shingles and decking and then let the insurance company pay for a new roof.
-
- Posts: 3543
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:27 am
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I thought 2 layers were the maximum allowed under building codes in many jurisdictions.
Too many layers of roof can be dangerous if the weight bearing capacity of structural beams is exceeded
Too many layers of roof can be dangerous if the weight bearing capacity of structural beams is exceeded
Last edited by SlowMovingInvestor on Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:50 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I was thinking the same thing about nails not making it into the roof/storm pulling shingles off. Is anyone aware of insurance companies not insuring roofs with 3 layers of shingles?
-
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 11:22 am
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
3 layers is pretty bad. That's a lot of weight and might make the trusses sag. I take it your inspector looked at the trusses and verified they're in good shape?
3 layers might be an issue with your insurance company. From previous posts it seems an insurance company can do an inspection after you're moved in and demand you put a new roof on to qualify for coverage. Or they might cover your house but not the roof. You should be proactive and call your insurance company.
Rather than asking the seller to knock $10k off the price, you might try to re-write the offer asking them to replace the roof. Make sure you have a say on the roofing company. Whether or not this is feasible depends a lot on your market and the seller's finances.
3 layers might be an issue with your insurance company. From previous posts it seems an insurance company can do an inspection after you're moved in and demand you put a new roof on to qualify for coverage. Or they might cover your house but not the roof. You should be proactive and call your insurance company.
Rather than asking the seller to knock $10k off the price, you might try to re-write the offer asking them to replace the roof. Make sure you have a say on the roofing company. Whether or not this is feasible depends a lot on your market and the seller's finances.
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:50 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
He said he saw a very slight sag from up top but that everything looked very good inside and he couldn’t capture sag inside.
I wasn’t happy at all about the inspector. He said the roof was number one issue but then didn’t make a big deal about it in his report ( which I was planning on using to leverage the seller).
I wasn’t happy at all about the inspector. He said the roof was number one issue but then didn’t make a big deal about it in his report ( which I was planning on using to leverage the seller).
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
That would be a deal breaker for me
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Just to offer a contrasting perspective. I bought my house almost 20 years ago. It had 3 layers of asphalt shingles. Still have the same roof. Never had a leak. It's not necessarily attractive, but I haven't had any functional issues with it.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Ask the inspector to write a supplement to his initial report "after having reflected on the condition of the roof, etc". Then you'd have some additional leverage to negotiate with the sellers if you wish.
Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it. - Will Rogers
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
$10K is not reasonable, the house was priced with a roof that was maybe two thirds through its useful life.crockpotinvesting wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:14 pm I was running numbers and say the roof cost $10,000 and I reduce my offer by $10k all that gives me is a few dollars less payment each month.
I would ask for a new roof and gutters to be put on the house with the seller paying for a third of it and the rest rolled into the mortgage. That is how I handled a roof that failed the inspection when I was buying it. The seller was fine with that, but they were under pressure to sell in a slow market.
I ended up with a new roof and my mortgage payment was only a little bit higher. A 20% down payment will also need to be smidge higher because of the higher loan amount.
Part of this should be that you agree with the selected roofing company and details, and that the house be inspected by a structural engineer to make sure that the building was not damaged by all the extra weight.
Of course what the seller will agree to depends on your local housing market and what your local building code says about three layers.
If your local building code does not allow three lawyers then you have a lot of leverage since they will have to disclose it to future buyers.
I would not buy the house with the existing roof since you really don't know what will turn up when the roof is finally replaced. It could be a lot more than $10K.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
What does your local housing market look like? How much do you like the house otherwise? What's the asking price?
You might be able to negotiate a discount or maybe they'll just move on to the next buyer...
You might be able to negotiate a discount or maybe they'll just move on to the next buyer...
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I would just show what it takes to redo the roof and ask a reduced offer. Then you control the redoing of the roof.
“While money can’t buy happiness, it certainly lets you choose your own form of misery.” Groucho Marx
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
You don't have enough information to make an informed decision.
Inspector liability is almost certainty limited to cost of inspection (check the fine print!)
This may not be a big deal at all or may represent a structural issue (very low likelihood).
Get a roofing expert and perhaps a structural engineer to inspect and you will have the required information.
Alternately, get a quote to replace the roof, and negotiate the split of cost responsibility with the seller.
Doesn't seem like a deal breaker issue to me - simply a cost issue to be understood and negotiated.
Inspector liability is almost certainty limited to cost of inspection (check the fine print!)
This may not be a big deal at all or may represent a structural issue (very low likelihood).
Get a roofing expert and perhaps a structural engineer to inspect and you will have the required information.
Alternately, get a quote to replace the roof, and negotiate the split of cost responsibility with the seller.
Doesn't seem like a deal breaker issue to me - simply a cost issue to be understood and negotiated.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
to put the 10k in perspective...how much was your offer?crockpotinvesting wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:14 pm Hi- I consider the people on this forum to be very educated and level headed so I wanted your opinion. I made an offer on a home and when the inspector came he informed me the home had 3 layers of roofing shingles. What do you guys think I should do? Pull the offer? Ask for them to put a new roof on? I was running numbers and say the roof cost $10,000 and I reduce my offer by $10k all that gives me is a few dollars less payment each month. It doesn’t fix the fact that the roof has 3 layers. That being said the inspector said the 3rd layer has about a 5-10 year life span. In person, he was very concerned about the 3 layers but in his report he didn’t make a big deal about it which drives me crazy. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
- Epsilon Delta
- Posts: 8090
- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:00 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I think it's cleaner to just negotiate for a cash discount and choose your own roofer and materials. It's not only the roofing company, there's a lot of other choices. Materials, flashing, color, style, replacing decking, gutters, protecting plants etc. There's a built in conflict of interest, the seller wants cheap, you want good or cost effective, and may want upgrades. It's easier if you're in control.FeesR-BullNotBullish wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:36 pm Rather than asking the seller to knock $10k off the price, you might try to re-write the offer asking them to replace the roof. Make sure you have a say on the roofing company. Whether or not this is feasible depends a lot on your market and the seller's finances.
- Sandtrap
- Posts: 21493
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:32 pm
- Location: Hawaii No Ka Oi - white sandy beaches, N. Arizona 1 mile high.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Depends on how badly you want the house. The next "reroof" is definitely a full tear-out and redo. You could go another 10 years and not have a problem, or hit a high wind storm in 2 years and have a problem. It's unknown. But, if at present there are no issues, then there's not much to complain about.
Perhaps you might bring it to the sellers attention and ask for a price reduction, or a reroof, or split the cost of a reroof and reduct the price accordingly.
j
Perhaps you might bring it to the sellers attention and ask for a price reduction, or a reroof, or split the cost of a reroof and reduct the price accordingly.
j
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:50 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Ask was $550k...I offered $515k...we agreed on $525k
-
- Posts: 5970
- Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:54 am
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Did you actually see 3 different layers or pictures? I had one roofing contractor say that I had two layers of shingles when I clearly didn't. Functionally 3 layers might not be a big deal but it will add to your cost of replacement by a few thousand over just two layers because of the extra weight of material that has to be disposed of and the labor involved. I would expect 3 layers to cost at least 50% extra or more to replace than a single layer.
If you have unique requirements for a house and you really like this one then see if you can negotiate some money off but don't make it a deal breaker. If this house is fairly common for the area, there are more like it, and extending your housing search won't cost you much extra, then move on to the next house.
If you have unique requirements for a house and you really like this one then see if you can negotiate some money off but don't make it a deal breaker. If this house is fairly common for the area, there are more like it, and extending your housing search won't cost you much extra, then move on to the next house.
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:50 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Yes, it’s fairly visible in a photo the inspector took.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Just out of curiosity, are you in an area that has significant snow or ice? That could add an additional weight stress on the roof or even with heavy snow, increase possibility of structural failure.
Bogleheads Wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
If there are three layers this is an ancient house and putting $10k into it is a drop in the bucket compared to what you'll probably spend every year for one kind of maintenance or another. But I'm guessing the roof will be $20k. Still a drop in the bucket, just a slightly bigger drop.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
My initial reaction is that perhaps the third layer of shingles was put on in anticipation of marketing the house. In a similar vein, it could have been done several years ago on the cheap . . . either scenario makes me wonder what other things were handled cheaply that you (and the inspector) didn’t discover. Poor pride in ownership from the current owners or cheap/quick fixes to get it sold, neither make me comfortable.
For a half-million dollar house (at least in my area) I’d expect things to have been maintained properly.
Overall, the roof would make me question other aspects of the house and would likely make me back away.
Curious, have you ever bought a house before or is this the first? Experience with my first house informs my future buying process and what to look out for and avoid.
For a half-million dollar house (at least in my area) I’d expect things to have been maintained properly.
Overall, the roof would make me question other aspects of the house and would likely make me back away.
Curious, have you ever bought a house before or is this the first? Experience with my first house informs my future buying process and what to look out for and avoid.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Three layers of shingles on the roof probably means that they took other shortcuts with maintenance and repairs, as well.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Maybe you can close around $520k with some delicate negotiating if you like the house otherwise. Have you seen many others?crockpotinvesting wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:31 pm Ask was $550k...I offered $515k...we agreed on $525k
Roofs, kitchens, baths, flooring, appliances, and so on all add up fast. Having to put $10k into a roof on a $500k house isn't unusual in many markets. We just had a thread on here with someone buying a $12k fridge FWIW.
It wouldn't stop me if you like it. But it's also an opportunity to get out of the deal if you're having serious second thoughts.
- ClevrChico
- Posts: 3372
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:24 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
The house I grew up in had three layers. The third layer that the previous owner installed lasted twenty years. The only downside was that tear down cost more money when layer three wore out.
- baconavocado
- Posts: 877
- Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:03 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Building codes in some cities only allow for 2 layers of roofing. You might check to see whether a permit is required for a re-roof and if so, whether the seller got one for the most recent roof work. If they skipped the permit for the roof, they may have also done other work w/o a permit.
Also, get an estimate for a new roof and make sure the roofer checks to see whether the sheathing will need to be replaced. For example, if the existing sheathing is rotten or damaged (looking at if from the attic or crawlspace between roof and ceiling), or if the roof only has skip-sheathing, new plywood or OSB boards may need to be laid under the new shingles and that can significantly increase the cost of a re-roof.
Don't forget that most inspectors are ultimately working for the seller/RE agent. They walk a fine line between their legal obligation to find defects and not saying anything that might kill the deal. Super honest inspectors quickly find out that RE agents will not hire or recommend them because agents are all about closing deals.
Roofs are super important to the structural integrity of a house.
Also, get an estimate for a new roof and make sure the roofer checks to see whether the sheathing will need to be replaced. For example, if the existing sheathing is rotten or damaged (looking at if from the attic or crawlspace between roof and ceiling), or if the roof only has skip-sheathing, new plywood or OSB boards may need to be laid under the new shingles and that can significantly increase the cost of a re-roof.
Don't forget that most inspectors are ultimately working for the seller/RE agent. They walk a fine line between their legal obligation to find defects and not saying anything that might kill the deal. Super honest inspectors quickly find out that RE agents will not hire or recommend them because agents are all about closing deals.
Roofs are super important to the structural integrity of a house.
-
- Posts: 25863
- Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
- Location: New York
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Agreed. A third layer of shingle on a roof reminds me of those who paint old kitchen cabinets, throw on a slab of granite, new low end oven with a stainless look and then have realtor point out the "new kitchen". My b-i-l calls it the "lipstick on pig" approach, you can put the lipstick on it, but end of day, it's still a pig. There are plenty of homes out there that showcase like that.
OP - if you don't feel comfortable, walk. There are plenty of homes for sale, plenty of them. A third layer of shingle? I'm no structural engineer, but was the original builder thinking of having three layers of shingle up on roof when the structure was being built? I don't think so. My garage which is detached from my home, it had three layers, it held up but was unsightly. I don't know how your prospective home has curb appeal with a 3 layer roof. Look at the surrounding homes, notice any difference? Or do they all have 3 layers of shingles?
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
- Wealth_Builder
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:14 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I would suggest having your real estate agent ask the inspector to update or augment his inspection regarding the roof. Your realtor should make this request because often this person will have built a relationship with the inspector (and has the promise of future work).
In my home purchase, the roof was suspect. We did the above and then negotiated with the seller. They were in a tight timeframe to sell and didn't want to re-list, so they actually wrote a $20k check that they gave to me at closing. This way we didn't have to rewrite the purchase amount - it worked out great for me because I had to put down less on the home (the amount of the check given to me).
In my home purchase, the roof was suspect. We did the above and then negotiated with the seller. They were in a tight timeframe to sell and didn't want to re-list, so they actually wrote a $20k check that they gave to me at closing. This way we didn't have to rewrite the purchase amount - it worked out great for me because I had to put down less on the home (the amount of the check given to me).
-
- Posts: 1142
- Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:11 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I bought my current house with 3 layers of shingles. The bank refused to finance it until the roof was replaced, as 3 layers wasn't up to local code. We split the cost with the previous owners, since any buyer would likely have the same issue.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I just had a 3-layer garage reroofed, I let it go 11 years vs. my original intention of 1-2, and then just because of appearance. It's not an issue. You might do it in 5 years vs. 10, or next year if it bothers you. A competent roofer will recognize and charge a bit more for the extra work. But I'd agree it reflects poorly on whatever previous owner did it, and the house warrants slightly more caution. I can't speak to financing, other than to note that if banks/insurance companies demanded current code, probably every house in the country more than 10 years old would fail. If you're buying a house old enough for 3 layers, you've got plenty more that isn't current.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I bought a house knowing it had a roof in need of replacement and plenty of other work needed too. I did not find out until we were replacing it two years later that there were 3 layers of old shingles on.
The biggest effect is that when you take the extra layers off, the structure is going to move around with the removal of the extra weight. In the week after the replacement, the roof structure "lifted" a quarter inch. It has continued to lift slowly since over the years, with up to an inch in movement where the joists cross the weight-bearing walls.
Any molding at the ceiling may pop loose, and you may experience cracking at the join between ceiling and wall. This will cost you some time, money and annoyance to fix, but not much compared with the cost of the new roof. I'd just think of it as buying a house not with 5 years left on the roof, but one that needs replacing sooner. No one is going to replace a roof for you to sell you the house, but they might well accept some reduction in price. Only you can decide if the risk is one you want to assume.
The biggest effect is that when you take the extra layers off, the structure is going to move around with the removal of the extra weight. In the week after the replacement, the roof structure "lifted" a quarter inch. It has continued to lift slowly since over the years, with up to an inch in movement where the joists cross the weight-bearing walls.
Any molding at the ceiling may pop loose, and you may experience cracking at the join between ceiling and wall. This will cost you some time, money and annoyance to fix, but not much compared with the cost of the new roof. I'd just think of it as buying a house not with 5 years left on the roof, but one that needs replacing sooner. No one is going to replace a roof for you to sell you the house, but they might well accept some reduction in price. Only you can decide if the risk is one you want to assume.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
This. There is no way I would want the seller picking out the color or quality. I think some of these responses are regional. If you live in an area where the majority of houses are new, or built in the last 15 years, an old roof is bad. If you live in an area where most of the houses are somewhere between 150-40 years old, (Northeast) an old roof is just the thing that needs replacing, as every house has something. If it were me, and there were no sign of structural issues, I'd definitely buy it and just try to get some money off to replace it. (which may or may not happen in New England).
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Get an experienced roofer (ideally a 'big name' in the area) to do a specific roof inspection. Use whatever comes from that specific roof inspection to modify your offer. If the roofer more or less agrees with the original inspector (should last 5-10 years, not ideal but doable) you should ask for a slight discount ($2-5K) and be done with it. If the roofer says it's more immediate than you can negotiate for the entire roof replacement.
If I am the seller, I likely meet you somewhere in the $3-5K range if you approach it reasonably
If I am the seller, I likely meet you somewhere in the $3-5K range if you approach it reasonably
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I have a bit of experience related to house buying, renovating and selling. We had this issue with our last foreclosure purchase.
Get a quote, produce it with the inspector's report, and request that they provide a cash allowance at closing. With the overall price of the house, I would probably see if they would be willing to bankroll the whole thing at the closing. I would NEVER allow them to do the work; why would they have any reason to care about the quality? Like you said, reducing the price only reduces your overall payment and payoff result, it does not reduce the initial brunt of the cost (if you care about that).
If this were a 100k house, I would probably offer to split it with them with 5k at closing allowed. You may end up having to meet in the middle anyways.
Not a professional in any capacity, just finally getting a grasp a bit on this stuff.
Get a quote, produce it with the inspector's report, and request that they provide a cash allowance at closing. With the overall price of the house, I would probably see if they would be willing to bankroll the whole thing at the closing. I would NEVER allow them to do the work; why would they have any reason to care about the quality? Like you said, reducing the price only reduces your overall payment and payoff result, it does not reduce the initial brunt of the cost (if you care about that).
If this were a 100k house, I would probably offer to split it with them with 5k at closing allowed. You may end up having to meet in the middle anyways.
Not a professional in any capacity, just finally getting a grasp a bit on this stuff.
- lthenderson
- Posts: 9188
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:43 am
- Location: Iowa
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Most codes allow two layers of shingles on roofs shallower than a 4/12 pitch and up to three layers on steeper pitches. Most inspectors will point out multiple layers because it makes it harder to detect leaks in the future and also voids most shingle warranties. If it has already been on for a number of years, I wouldn't worry about it causing structural problems. They would have already occurred. My worries would strictly be if it is currently functional and to some extent aesthetics. If it meets both those criteria, I certainly wouldn't pull my offer or even adjust the offer if the house met all my other criteria. Putting on a new roof sometime in the future is an easy and fairly economical task, even if they have to tear off multiple layers. Tearing off three layers of shingles versus one might only add a few hundred dollars to the total cost of a project.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
It depends on how hot the market it. If it is a hot market and this is a purely money negotiation. If they don't like your offer maybe someone is right behind you willing to pay the offered price without the cost of the roof. So you need to decide if you really want the house and if the price that was negotiated is reasonable for the roof in it's current condition.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
ditto. I know my insurance company would not cover the insurance.
Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered you will never grow. (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
The first house I ever owned had 3 layers of shingles, bought as-is and I knew the roof was crap. That was fun pulling them off when I re-roofed but apparently it was up to code at the time done. Multiple roofs in earthquake zones are not a good idea because the excess weight is at the worst possible point. Each additional roof is like having a pickup truck up there even on a smaller house.
-
- Posts: 2478
- Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:20 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I agree that you should ask a contractor what it would cost to remove the layers of shingles and put all new shingles on it. Then, I would provide that information to the seller and either reduce your offer by "splitting" the cost of the new roof, or reduce your offer by the full amount. I would also ask a more specialized inspector (preferably structural engineer) if the added weight of the 3 layers has caused any damage to the trusses. A general home inspector could easily have missed something.
Analogy: I'm a civil engineer who specializes in stormwater, but if you asked me to inspect a home for structural damage, I'd take a look at it but could easily miss something, because it's not my specialty and its not stuff that I'm looking at every day.
Analogy: I'm a civil engineer who specializes in stormwater, but if you asked me to inspect a home for structural damage, I'd take a look at it but could easily miss something, because it's not my specialty and its not stuff that I'm looking at every day.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
+1 to all this except the last part. You never know what is going to turn up under an old roof so this is not a reason to walk away. Very worst case maybe a few trusses will need sistering, not a big deal much less a deal breaker now because of that unlikely eventuality.Watty wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:11 pm$10K is not reasonable, the house was priced with a roof that was maybe two thirds through its useful life.crockpotinvesting wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:14 pm I was running numbers and say the roof cost $10,000 and I reduce my offer by $10k all that gives me is a few dollars less payment each month.
I would ask for a new roof and gutters to be put on the house with the seller paying for a third of it and the rest rolled into the mortgage. That is how I handled a roof that failed the inspection when I was buying it. The seller was fine with that, but they were under pressure to sell in a slow market.
I ended up with a new roof and my mortgage payment was only a little bit higher. A 20% down payment will also need to be smidge higher because of the higher loan amount.
Part of this should be that you agree with the selected roofing company and details, and that the house be inspected by a structural engineer to make sure that the building was not damaged by all the extra weight.
Of course what the seller will agree to depends on your local housing market and what your local building code says about three layers.
If your local building code does not allow three lawyers then you have a lot of leverage since they will have to disclose it to future buyers.
I would not buy the house with the existing roof since you really don't know what will turn up when the roof is finally replaced. It could be a lot more than $10K.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
My understanding over the years is that only 2 layers of shingles are advised or allowed. I would check to see if local codes have been violated and a credible opinion or finding on whether this makes the roof unsafe or risky to any degree.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
When we bought our house it had 3 layers. Our insurance company wouldn't insure the house without replacing it. They don't hold up well and are prone to failure. If I recall correctly, the insurance company agreed to give us 6 months to replace the roof and have their inspector confirm it, or they'd pull our insurance. We got a few quotes and and agreed with the sellers to have them put a certain amount in an escrow account to cover the roof replacement. We had it done by a contractor of our choosing a month or two after the purchase.
I would have it replaced immediately and have the cost covered by the sellers. Especially if you don't have the funds to do a roof replacement out of pocket in the next few years. If you don't mind paying out of pocket, then it would also be fine to have the price knocked down by the cost of a new roof. There is no reason to pay the agreed upon price.
I would definitely *not* have the sellers do the replacement. They will have every incentive to go as cheap as possible and you'll just end up having to redo the roof in a few years.
I would have it replaced immediately and have the cost covered by the sellers. Especially if you don't have the funds to do a roof replacement out of pocket in the next few years. If you don't mind paying out of pocket, then it would also be fine to have the price knocked down by the cost of a new roof. There is no reason to pay the agreed upon price.
I would definitely *not* have the sellers do the replacement. They will have every incentive to go as cheap as possible and you'll just end up having to redo the roof in a few years.
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir
-
- Posts: 11141
- Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
This.adamthesmythe wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:26 pm > That being said the inspector said the 3rd layer has about a 5-10 year life span
Then the house has a functional roof and will be valued at about the same as any comparable house.
Depending on your market, you may not get 10K reduction. The owner has to decide whether someone else will buy at your present offer- or above.
If you bail you have to believe you will find another acceptable house without this issue AND without any others.
Personally- if this was the house I wanted after a long search- I would figure (1) I will probably have 5-10 years before replacement (2) even then maybe spot repairs will keep me going and (3) if that is the only big ticket item in 5-10 years I will be doing well.
If you are backing out because of this, you probably didn't want the house that bad in my opinion. Of course, I'd try and get some money off...
- Epsilon Delta
- Posts: 8090
- Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:00 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I am curious about the suggestion to negotiate a cash allowance at closing. Naively I would think this would be considered a kick back and a lender would look askance at this if it material changes the down payment or the defacto value of the house. Isn't this the type of thing that happened just before the 2008 crash?
It's not that I think the home buyer and seller are doing anything wrong as long as it's disclosed to all interested parties, it's just that I would expect the lender to take a view.
It's not that I think the home buyer and seller are doing anything wrong as long as it's disclosed to all interested parties, it's just that I would expect the lender to take a view.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Yes, this is a real thing. Banks are edgy about roof problems. The lender at a minimum is going to see your post inspection negotiations. If it mentions the roof their ears may perk up. We specifically removed some quibbling about a minor roof issue when we purchased our home since our mortgage broker reviewed the offer before sending it along and advised against mentioning the roof unless it was a critical issue for us. They had seen a few closings fall through once the lender got in the mix about a roof.downshiftme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:49 pm I bought my current house with 3 layers of shingles. The bank refused to finance it until the roof was replaced, as 3 layers wasn't up to local code. We split the cost with the previous owners, since any buyer would likely have the same issue.
As others mentioned naturally your insurance might not want to cover either.
So pay close attention to this. Even if you decide you are OK with the roof there are other parties in the deal who might not be.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
I would see if you can split the difference to $520k.crockpotinvesting wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:31 pm Ask was $550k...I offered $515k...we agreed on $525k
Get a quote from a contractor for new shingles and a second quote for impact resistant shingles as well. Check with insurance to see if you can get a discount. The difference in price for impact resistant shingles will usually pay for themselves in a handful of years.
.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
You should have your attorney negotiate on your behalf based on the inspector's report. You can't expect a perfectly new roof (i.e. 100% reduction in price based on the price of a new roof), but should expect some partial concessions. I wouldn't walk away if you like the house and location just because of three layers of shingles. I purchased a home in the same ballpark price-wise and my inspector told me I needed a new roof, new copper pipes in the basement, and new electrical throughout some of the house. My attorney told me to ask the seller for double back what we actually thought we'd want (we wanted $15k off, so asked for $30k), and the seller came back with $12k ($2k off the price, and $10k off of closing costs). Seemed reasonable to me. The new roof (house + garage) was about $10k incidentally. Plumbing about $5k and electrical about $5k. So, certainly ended up putting in more money to fix those things than got off, but wanted the house and can't expect everything to be perfect (especially if the home is old).
In my experience, the lender and insurer don't pour over the inspector's report at all. I don't think my insurance company even got a copy of it to be honest. I probably could have gotten a new roof through my insurer when a storm did hit and blew off a ton of shingles, but I felt that was abusing the system as I knew it needed a new roof before that anyways, but apparently a lot of people do go that route (have insurer pay for it after a storm hits and causes more damage -- having a claim could increase your premiums though).
In my experience, the lender and insurer don't pour over the inspector's report at all. I don't think my insurance company even got a copy of it to be honest. I probably could have gotten a new roof through my insurer when a storm did hit and blew off a ton of shingles, but I felt that was abusing the system as I knew it needed a new roof before that anyways, but apparently a lot of people do go that route (have insurer pay for it after a storm hits and causes more damage -- having a claim could increase your premiums though).
-
- Posts: 11141
- Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
Interesting comments. I've never had an insurer ask how many layers of shingles are on my roof.
Re: 3 layers of roof. Pull my offer??
We had an insurer refuse to cover our newly purchased house because of the age of the roof, even though the shingles were fine. We found another insurer, quite easily in fact.DoTheMath wrote: ↑Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:01 am When we bought our house it had 3 layers. Our insurance company wouldn't insure the house without replacing it. They don't hold up well and are prone to failure. If I recall correctly, the insurance company agreed to give us 6 months to replace the roof and have their inspector confirm it, or they'd pull our insurance. We got a few quotes and and agreed with the sellers to have them put a certain amount in an escrow account to cover the roof replacement. We had it done by a contractor of our choosing a month or two after the purchase.
I would have it replaced immediately and have the cost covered by the sellers. Especially if you don't have the funds to do a roof replacement out of pocket in the next few years. If you don't mind paying out of pocket, then it would also be fine to have the price knocked down by the cost of a new roof. There is no reason to pay the agreed upon price.
I would definitely *not* have the sellers do the replacement. They will have every incentive to go as cheap as possible and you'll just end up having to redo the roof in a few years.