Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

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Spiffs
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Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Spiffs » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:55 pm

Just as an experiment, I was using charts to compare the past performance of Vanguard's Total U.S. Stock Market ETF (VTI) to the stocks of Verizon (VZ), Fidelity Information Services (FIS), Cisco (CSCO), and Intel (INTC). I was really surprised to see Morningstar's chart differ so much from Yahoo's chart (and Google's chart), and I was wondering if someone could help show me what's going on here. :confused

Morningstar's chart: link to it

Image

Yahoo's chart: link to it

Image

Google's chart: link to it

Image

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Ice-9
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Ice-9 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:57 pm

I believe Morningstar includes dividends.

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Spiffs
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Spiffs » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:40 pm

Is there any way to verify that? (I couldn't find anything...) You really think that explains the differences? Also, what would explain the differences between Yahoo's chart and Google's chart, then? I'm so confused!

rotorhead
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by rotorhead » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:05 am

Someone else may have better notion; but I believe the Yahoo chart only shows daily closing price, while M* chart shows growth of $10,000 over the specified period; which includes reinvestment of dividends. Information being presented is quite different. Google chart would be similar to Yahoo's.

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Ketawa
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Ketawa » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:08 am

In my experience, you can only trick Morningstar into showing a "Growth of $10k" chart for ETFs if you start with a mutual fund on the chart, then add ETFs separately. Otherwise, you are stuck with a NAV chart. I can't speak to what is shown on Yahoo or Google.

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grayfox
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by grayfox » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:05 am

Too much information on one chart. Some of it looks like wrong data.

For instance FIS shows +199% on M* but only +30%.

Maybe there were FIS stock splits that were not being accounted for?
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HomerJ
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by HomerJ » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:07 am

Yahoo doesn't include dividends... It's mostly worthless when looking at long-term returns.

Use morningstar instead.

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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by FredPeterson » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:10 am

The FIS chart on Morningstar does not contain the $16.80 "dividend" that Yahoo shows on July 3rd 2008.

This was a spinoff event of Lender Processing Services

http://www.lpsvcs.com/LPSCorporateInfor ... 80702.aspx

Morningstars graph is "wrong" because it does not take this into account.

But I think what is also happening is it included the spinoff event as an immediate reinvestment rather then a divesture of funds.

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Doc
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Doc » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:40 am

A couple of points:

1) Morningstar defaults to price for ETFs and total return for funds. As motioned you have to "trick" M* into charting total return for ETFs.

2) In Yahoo's price history tables they "correct" the price for dividends thus effective turning their "price" changes into total return. I don't know if this "correction" carries over into their charts.
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barnaclebob
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by barnaclebob » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:42 am

Looks like something happened right at the line between 02 and 03 that google shows but not the other two.

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Electron
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Electron » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:29 pm

I often compare several charts to try and verify what is being shown. This can include two different Morningstar charts plus Yahoo Finance or Google Finance. I just looked at a Morningstar chart started with a Mutual Fund and adding Vz stock both of which show the growth of $10K. Then I brought up in another browser tab a Morningstar chart showing Vz price only. It appears that the growth of $10K for Vz is reinvesting dividends, and if so Morningstar must be picking some reinvestment price.

In fact, that is a problem for stocks and ETFs, since one could reinvest at various prices during the day. Mutual Funds make this much easier. ETF price also deviates from NAV.

With Yahoo Finance, check the Historical Data tab and you can see the distributions. They also allow you to display only dividends. Notice the column for dividend and split adjusted data. That is used for their charts. I've seen many errors and omissions in their dividends and they may also round them off. Morningstar appears to be the most accurate of all the charting sites.

You might also try Stockscharts as they do appear to show total return for most securities. In fact, I just discovered that you can display a chart two ways. Bring up a chart for T, and then try _T using the underscore. Using the underscore shows the unadjusted data.

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=T

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=_T

The difference is more noticeable with larger distributions such as a High Yield Bond fund.

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=VWEHX

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=_VWEHX

To compare securities on a percentage basis, try Stockcharts PerfCharts.

http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/perf.php?VTI,VZ,INTC

Now drag the Time Scale out using the little marks to the left of "200 days". That is a great feature. I have not checked the accuracy of those charts.
Electron

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Spiffs
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Spiffs » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:58 pm

Ketawa wrote:In my experience, you can only trick Morningstar into showing a "Growth of $10k" chart for ETFs if you start with a mutual fund on the chart, then add ETFs separately. Otherwise, you are stuck with a NAV chart. I can't speak to what is shown on Yahoo or Google.
Thanks for all the replies! I'm still pretty confused, but at least I'm understanding a little more about why I'm confused... :happy Anyways, though, so I did what Ketawa mentioned (thanks!) to get a "Growth of $10k" chart from Morningstar (link to chart) that should show total return (dividends and capital gains included, I understand), which yields (pun intended :D) this graph:

Image

So, is this an accurate chart for the purpose of looking at historical total return, or is it still incorrect? (FredPeterson -see below- wrote that Morningstar's NAV chart, which I posted in the first post on this thread, did not include a spinoff that FIS made--does this "Growth of $10k" chart also include this error? I'm not sure how to check for this/things like this...)
FredPeterson wrote:The FIS chart on Morningstar does not contain the $16.80 "dividend" that Yahoo shows on July 3rd 2008.

This was a spinoff event of Lender Processing Services

http://www.lpsvcs.com/LPSCorporateInfor ... 80702.aspx

Morningstars graph is "wrong" because it does not take this into account.

But I think what is also happening is it included the spinoff event as an immediate reinvestment rather then a divesture of funds.

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Electron
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Re: Why is Morningstar's chart so different from Yahoo's?

Post by Electron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:28 pm

Doc wrote:1) Morningstar defaults to price for ETFs and total return for funds. As motioned you have to "trick" M* into charting total return for ETFs.
I recently brought up a Morningstar chart for an open ended fund and then added several Closed End Funds and an ETF. The chart does appear to show the growth of $10K for all funds.

After getting additional data on the Closed End funds, it appears that they are showing NAV performance and not Price performance. That raises the question on how they compute the growth of $10K. Does anyone know if they reinvest each dividend at NAV rather than Price?
Electron

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