Any car dealer salespersons out there ? Advice ?

[Nine5472]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

[lthenderson]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

I'm not a dealer or salesperson but am good friends with the sales manager of a local dealership and I have asked him this very question. He has always said those that get the best deals are those who negotiate face to face, have done some homework on dealer costs of the vehicle and are prepared to "dicker" on price. They make a lot of their money through options so if you are adding lots of options, they can negotiate even further.

He said they have set pricing that they give to everyone who emails them requesting their "best out the door price". It is never their best price because it doesn't take into account dealer sales incentives or excess inventory, etc. that might cause them to lower prices even further. He also said, they can't afford to hire someone to answer all the hundreds of emails they get a day asking for the best price and do the required legwork to truly figure out the lowest possible price for every vehicle and combination of options on their lot. So they have someone dedicated to email relations who just gives a predetermined price to remain competitive and calls it good.

YMMV

[Dufus]

There are a lot of variables, many unknown to the buyer and some unknown to the salesmen. (There could be a factory to dealer rebate that the dealer doesn't tell the salesmen, because he doesn't want to pay them commission on that money). End of the month, everyone is trying to make targets and often results in a better deal. Larger cities often charge more than dealers in smaller cities. Is it because cost of doing business is higher, or because they can?

[rockstar]

Not now.

This is when customers use their tax refunds to pay for vehicles. Dealers mark up their vehicles now especially used ones. I’d expect to reasonably pay $1-2k more for a vehicle now.

[WoostaGal]

Not now.

This is when customers use their tax refunds to pay for vehicles. Dealers mark up their vehicles now especially used ones. I’d expect to reasonably pay $1-2k more for a vehicle now.

Interesting ... What are the best times of year to buy a used car? I'm guessing the end of December is one of those times?

[BullMoose]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

I'm not a dealer or salesperson but am good friends with the sales manager of a local dealership...

YMMV

This is really interesting and useful feedback - thanks for providing! I'd expect this is, in particular, an area that will be influenced with AI (if not already).

[Katietsu]

. Larger cities often charge more than dealers in smaller cities. Is it because cost of doing business is higher, or because they can?

This is not universal. Large city can mean high volume with less profit per vehicle. Large city also means competition as there is going to be another dealer in town with the same model. I drove 3 hours to purchase my last SUV for this reason. Saved $2500.

[veggivet]

I'm not positive, but I think dealerships have monthly sales goals, so if a salesperson is a little short in the last few days of the month you may be able to squeeze out a little better deal.

[rogue_economist]

First, I'd avoid it if at all possible.

Second, if that isn't possible, negotiate a low price and then discuss financing and see what you can get. But make those independent discussions with the salesman and financing officer.

Third, look all over for someone who will deal, and if they try any funny business walk away and go elsewhere. Don't limit yourself to one town or state.

[Jack FFR1846]

Not a dealer but a huge car nut who actually has gone to negotiate for friends because I find it fun. I also have friends who are business managers and sales people at dealers. There's a ton of variables out there. Just some random facts.

Floor Plan. Dealers pay what's called floor plan which is a loan on the new car as it's awaiting getting sold. A big interest payment becomes due if it sits at the dealer too long. I just watched Car Edge (youtube) and they had a dealer network owner talking about this. He said he would love for someone to come in and specifically ask for an aged out floor plan car. These are the most expensive cars for them and they want them out of there.

Financing: Dealers get money from the lenders. Period. If you don't finance, they don't get money from any lender. How much? More than they make selling the car. So if you go in all Boglehead and tell them you want no loan, you're paying cash, they'll be fine with that and now your minimum price will be $1,000 or $2,000 more. Take the loan. Make 3 payments then pay it off. If you can't do that, then I guess it's worth thousands not to have a loan to you.

Tax Time Sales: Especially with used cars, tax time (right now) is when used car dealers make more sales than the rest of the year. It's because people get a tax refund and go buy a car with the money. They DO raise prices and at auction, prices are higher so used dealers have to pay more for the cars. End of the month is typical for incentives. And as someone else mentioned, yes, there ARE dealer incentives you will never hear of. A good friend of mine went to buy a new Explorer right before the end of the year. He only was later told that the dealer needed to sell 2 more Explorers and that if they did, Ford would give the dealer $3000 for every Explorer they sold the whole year. But the Explorer had a minimum price from Ford or it didn't count. He traded in an old Jeep Cherokee worth about $3000. They gave him $10,000 for it. The salesman told my friend that while he was buying this Explorer, another sales person was also selling one, giving an equally high trade in value. They met the goal. The salesman got a trip to Hawaii for his sales. The dealer will never tell you this up front. They have tons of incentives with ending points at the end of a month, quarter or year. The very end of the year is typically the best time to buy. Like the week between Christmas and New Year.

There are times you can get a very good deal online. I bought my 2013 Subaru Crosstrek Limited through an email. I specified the exact stock number and shot off the email at lunch. The sales guy was out at lunch and the sales manager sent me a response that was an amazing number. I drove there and the sales man didn't believe that he'd have given me that number and had to go talk with the sales manager. I got the price. I financed through them and after 3 months, paid off the car. So yes, you can get a good deal online sometimes. And yes, I had spent 6 months getting prices from other dealers between in person, email and calling.

Is Costco a good deal? If you don't want to negotiate or are bad a negotiating, sure. If you like negotiating, like me, no. I've seen Costco numbers on vehicles I've bought new and I always beat them by numbers of thousands. And I am no pro and no broker. But I have fun with it and don't mind playing hard ball with rocks.

How available is the vehicle? If you want a Nissan Rogue, there are a billion of them out there that nobody's buying. Have at it. You'll get a huge discount. Try to buy a Nissan GT-R that someone ordered and cancelled when it arrived? Be ready to pay way over MSRP for it. It depends. So sure, if that Toyota Rav-4 hybrid has 2 in your region and all dealers have waiting lists, no, you won't get anything off. But if you want a Tundra, take your pick out of the 80 on the lot or 7 on the truck in front of the dealer unloading. Go on dealer websites and look for new vehicles. Filter for the model and even the trim you want. It will tell you at the top how many they have. When they have 100 of them, there ya go. Easy to drop the price. If you have to check 5 dealer sites to find one, nope.

[bobn60014]

Not a dealer but a huge car nut who actually has gone to negotiate for friends because I find it fun. I also have friends who are business managers and sales people at dealers. There's a ton of variables out there. Just some random facts.

Floor Plan. Dealers pay what's called floor plan which is a loan on the new car as it's awaiting getting sold. A big interest payment becomes due if it sits at the dealer too long. I just watched Car Edge (youtube) and they had a dealer network owner talking about this. He said he would love for someone to come in and specifically ask for an aged out floor plan car. These are the most expensive cars for them and they want them out of there.

Financing: Dealers get money from the lenders. Period. If you don't finance, they don't get money from any lender. How much? More than they make selling the car. So if you go in all Boglehead and tell them you want no loan, you're paying cash, they'll be fine with that and now your minimum price will be $1,000 or $2,000 more. Take the loan. Make 3 payments then pay it off. If you can't do that, then I guess it's worth thousands not to have a loan to you.

Tax Time Sales: Especially with used cars, tax time (right now) is when used car dealers make more sales than the rest of the year. It's because people get a tax refund and go buy a car with the money. They DO raise prices and at auction, prices are higher so used dealers have to pay more for the cars. End of the month is typical for incentives. And as someone else mentioned, yes, there ARE dealer incentives you will never hear of. A good friend of mine went to buy a new Explorer right before the end of the year. He only was later told that the dealer needed to sell 2 more Explorers and that if they did, Ford would give the dealer $3000 for every Explorer they sold the whole year. But the Explorer had a minimum price from Ford or it didn't count. He traded in an old Jeep Cherokee worth about $3000. They gave him $10,000 for it. The salesman told my friend that while he was buying this Explorer, another sales person was also selling one, giving an equally high trade in value. They met the goal. The salesman got a trip to Hawaii for his sales. The dealer will never tell you this up front. They have tons of incentives with ending points at the end of a month, quarter or year. The very end of the year is typically the best time to buy. Like the week between Christmas and New Year.

There are times you can get a very good deal online. I bought my 2013 Subaru Crosstrek Limited through an email. I specified the exact stock number and shot off the email at lunch. The sales guy was out at lunch and the sales manager sent me a response that was an amazing number. I drove there and the sales man didn't believe that he'd have given me that number and had to go talk with the sales manager. I got the price. I financed through them and after 3 months, paid off the car. So yes, you can get a good deal online sometimes. And yes, I had spent 6 months getting prices from other dealers between in person, email and calling.

Is Costco a good deal? If you don't want to negotiate or are bad a negotiating, sure. If you like negotiating, like me, no. I've seen Costco numbers on vehicles I've bought new and I always beat them by numbers of thousands. And I am no pro and no broker. But I have fun with it and don't mind playing hard ball with rocks.

How available is the vehicle? If you want a Nissan Rogue, there are a billion of them out there that nobody's buying. Have at it. You'll get a huge discount. Try to buy a Nissan GT-R that someone ordered and cancelled when it arrived? Be ready to pay way over MSRP for it. It depends. So sure, if that Toyota Rav-4 hybrid has 2 in your region and all dealers have waiting lists, no, you won't get anything off. But if you want a Tundra, take your pick out of the 80 on the lot or 7 on the truck in front of the dealer unloading. Go on dealer websites and look for new vehicles. Filter for the model and even the trim you want. It will tell you at the top how many they have. When they have 100 of them, there ya go. Easy to drop the price. If you have to check 5 dealer sites to find one, nope.

+1....bingo and well said. This should be required reading for those posting questions asking about anything car buying.

[MrJayhawk]

There is a book I would suggest you attempt to check out from the library or buy off Amazon. It’s called Dont Get Taken Every Time by Remar Sutton. He is a former car dealer and lays out the tricks they can and will pull on you. You will save money after reading the book. It came out for first edition nearly 40 years ago and I have saved money and aggravation each time we have bought a car. Example: a large amount of salesman offices are bugged. They go off to ‘talk to the manager’ but in reality they are going to listen to what you discuss with partner while they are gone. Example 2: they have 2 similar cars. They show you the ‘invoice’ for the one you want and say we will sell it to you for X over the price? Only problem is they showed you the invoice for the newer one that had a price increase over the one that had been there longer. Buyer beware.

[Watty]

I am not a salesperson but some general things I would recommend are;

1) Be to be flexible and at least test drive the competitive car models. At the right price your third choice car could be a better choice.

2) Focus on the total cost of ownership. Often the cheapest car to buy will not be the cheapest over the long term.

3) Shop for your next car long before your current car dies. I have had to replace a car in a hurry and that is not a good way to get a great deal.

[valleyrock]

There's a great series of YouTube videos by a former car sales manager and his son. Their name is Shefska. Pretty entertaining if nothing else.

[SteelPenny]

Reddit r/askcarsales would be the place to go if you really want to hear from people in car sales. But I think you've gotten some good advice here.

[bd7]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

My observation is that a ruthless negotiator who happens to be buying the right car at the right time might get a cheaper deal and oddly enough, they're more likely to get that at a dealer that tries very hard to rip customers off while more civilized dealers might not be willing to sell a car that cheap. So you sort of have to decide whether you absolutely need to whip every last nickel out of the deal or not. I've seen people make mistakes when they are negotiating hard and end up with not quite the car or deal that they thought they were getting.

[Wanderingwheelz]

I do not personally buy a car with the idea I’ll get my best price by forcing myself to borrow money. I have bought more than 15 brand new cars and I can only think of onc instance where taking a loan made the most sense and that was because of a big manufacturer incentive that was only offered on a lease (there are often offered if you have a competing brand in your household). That’s the only vehicle I’ve ever bought without paying for it in full. Late ron I’m going g to tell you how even that almost cost me a couple thousand bucks due to shady dealer tactics.

As for how to get the best deal, which is best, walking in off the street or contacting the internet sales manager by email? I agree with others who’ve said that can be affected in a big way by how much you want to “play the game”, and yes.. how prepared you are and how good you are at it. Just know when youre on their turf they’re going to have you outnumbered and to get your best deal you’re going to have to get over the tactics they use to make you feel like you’re being unreasonable. (For this reason I don’t bring my wife until after a final deal has been agreed to.. she’s too easy to flip making my job of “being a jerk” a lot harder.) they’re going to make you feel like you’re being a jerk as soon as the terms begin to melt away their profit. Remember that a jerk to them is a person who makes them work harder than what they’re used to. *Stay in control.* Leave if they’re making you feel uncomfortable. You have to hang in there and keep your concentration since you’ll have been there for at least three hours being told all the reasons you’re not doing things the way they want them for you to. It’s not a pleasant experience if you have any sympathy for your opposition! They dna say no if your terms are unacceptable to the dealer.

Remember this one fact: car buying is all about control of the sale and if you can’t control it, you’re going to pay too much. My last new vehicle I bought, when I was leaving the salesman said he didn’t think there was a chance in hell I was going to buy a car that day. But.. I could tell the sales managers were especially motivated so I pressed them (yes it was 3 on 1, and that’s even before having to say “no” 47 times in the sales managers torture chamber. Plus I had some unusual requests that I was able to ge them to agree to, like removing premium parts off my trade-in that I wanted to replace the new parts on the brand new vehicle, the service dept swapping them over from my trade to my new vehicle for no charge. That took half a days worth of work that I didn’t pay for. The service dept bills the sales dept for that to prevent the front of the shop just saying “sure” to every customer request to have the back do free work, by the way.

As for the other new car I currently own (both 2023 models), I had great success negotiating over the internet. I paid cash and there’s no way in the world the price was going to be meaningfully lower if I had used the manufacturers financing. I guess it’s possible that on occasion you can save a couple hundred bucks, but you can’t pay with a cashiers check when you finance thus side-stepping the pure profit $299+++ dealer processing fee (states control how high this is permitted to go). They tell you everyone pays it, but not if you do your own papwrwoek at DMV- it’s illegal to charge you. Of course, it’s up to them to tell you no when you request the COO in exchange for a cashiers check. They can say no just as you can. Walk if you don’t get the terms you need. Remember: It’s always better to be shopping when you don’t need a car. Anyway, back to what I was saying… On a used car where local banks are providing the financing, not the manufacturer, you may get a better sale price by financing but a savvy buyer with an 800 credit score will be just fine paying cash for a brand new car. As for the “gotcha” I mentioned earlier: Just know that they’re going to try to tack points onto the base manufacturers loan percentage, and a lot of buyers who think they’re savvy don’t know they’re being jacked by the smiley faces that are telling you what a great benefit financing is to you. I’ve seen a peeps. Lay 3 points who up until that point thought they had the deal of the century. I had the dealer try to add one point onto my lease that I mentioned earlier and for the life of them they couldn’t figure out how I knew the base manufacturers interest rate. I waked and told them they’re jerks. The email I received later was suitable for framing. Lol I leased the car a day or two later on my terms.

So anyway, pay cash if you aren’t like the top 1% or even .5% of car buyers when it comes to skills to press back on all the tactics (yes, some dirty-borderline-unethical tactics) dealers are going to layer you on, since it’s their job to find your blind spot and exploit the crap out of it. They’re like a crafty 3 year old who really wants something.. they’ll work you and work you some more until you’re like whatever just get me out of here. You must know absolutely how the game is played so you have no blind spots.

Yes, I have sold cars in case you’re wondering. A lot of cars.

[ROIGuy]

As mentioned earlier, the best situation is to buy a car when you don't need a car. Real bargaining power is when you can say "no, I don't need your business" and walk away. Years ago I had a client who owned a car dealership, he told me that even if they sold the car at true cost they dealership always made a profit even through the manufacture; he called it "trunk money".

[just frank]

I always heard walk in to the dealership on a rainy weekday (slow time) near the end of the month (when the salesperson might be eager to pad their monthly number).

And always check the math on any sheet they put in front of you... there are often math errors in the dealers favor.

[bombcar]

My observation is that a ruthless negotiator who happens to be buying the right car at the right time might get a cheaper deal and oddly enough, they're more likely to get that at a dealer that tries very hard to rip customers off while more civilized dealers might not be willing to sell a car that cheap.

This is an important fact - and it doesn't have to be a rip-off dealer; just a dealer who sells to people who don't haggle much. They make money over all the cars - if most are sold at a healthy profit, selling one at a minor profit doesn't hurt them - and in the right time when it's costing them or annoying them, you can even get it below cost - which I've seen happen on a cancelled order for a color combo nobody really wanted.

It's like how walmart clearance prices are usually small drops, whereas kohls can afford to mark things down tremendously when they really want it off their hands.

[turtlebug]

Excellent thread with a lot of very good advice. I love negotiating and find it an enjoyable process, but many (most) people don't. I leave DH behind when I purchase a vehicle because it stresses him out. I also love to private sell my old vehicles, which DH abhors.

[Sandtrap]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

1
Car "stealer-ships"; showroom, sales, sales department, finance department, sales management, general managers, "closers", etc, ...are focused and structured to do one thing and one thing only...
*Get you to buy "a" car, "today"/now, at the highest price and profit (front end or back, including financing and add ons aka: "pack"), without exception.
2
Think of a highly professional megadollar Hollywood production and you're "on stage" from the moment you drive onto the dealership property until you drive off the driveway. Everything is done "on cue" and everyone is a "well trained and rehearsed" professional. Lines are delivered as they are supposed to be or a salesman will be fired. If a salesman tells his clients how much they can buy a car for, he will be fired. If a salesman coaches you to "work the system" for the best sale to your benefit, he will be fired. Etc. Etc.
3
So, knowing this, will you believe these lines from the sales department, the finance department, etc??
"trust me"
"would I lie to you"
"I want you to get the best deal today on the car you love and will "work for you" to do it. (me against them).
"This is the best price I can give you for your trade in. Believe me. You won't get it anywhere else"
"This dealership is different than all the others. We are a "one price" structure to give you the best deal"
"Let me introduce you to my manager, my boss. He can get you a great deal better than anyone here"
"We can do better for you than Edward Jones, Dean Witter, and E>F Hutton..you can trust us...."

In my younger years, while going to the University, I worked part time at various very large new car dealerships, Ford, Nissan (datsun), etc, for about 4 years. I was good at it. About 30 cars/mo. ave.
I also went through the Ford and Nissan training programs that were extensive (back then).
Before the internet, going to "stealerships" was the most common way to buy a new car.

Advice: do all your research and quotes online from various dealerships on the exact car you want. Have them compete for your money by doing better than the quotes from other dealerships that you share with them.
Have the attitude that you don't "need to buy a car", don't need to spend money, and can walk away anytime.
Go to the dealerships to shop for the cars, the one you want, regardless of price. Then, do your price shopping online. Typical to "bogleheads", other middleman price shoppers, Costco, etc, is not needed. DIY.
** Be completely rational and logical at the dealership. Leave "feelings" at home. Go at it like a lawyer or politician...(kidding).

Fairly Recently for us, DW and I.
4k below factory list on a new Honda Odessey Elite. Cash.
4k below factory list on a new Honda Passport Elite AWD. Cash
3k below factory list on a new Toyota 4Runner TRD Pro 4wd. Cash.
2k below factory list on a new Honda Pioneer UTV
The only thing we needed to do at the dealership was pay for the agreed price online and pick up the car.
When price shopping, we shopped the entire state.

I don't know what the "markup" is on cars nowadays.
But it only costs, on average, 10 dollars to make an iPhone 14 plus.

j

[Cash is King]

Not a dealer but a huge car nut who actually has gone to negotiate for friends because I find it fun. I also have friends who are business managers and sales people at dealers. There's a ton of variables out there. Just some random facts.

Floor Plan. Dealers pay what's called floor plan which is a loan on the new car as it's awaiting getting sold. A big interest payment becomes due if it sits at the dealer too long. I just watched Car Edge (youtube) and they had a dealer network owner talking about this. He said he would love for someone to come in and specifically ask for an aged out floor plan car. These are the most expensive cars for them and they want them out of there.

Financing: Dealers get money from the lenders. Period. If you don't finance, they don't get money from any lender. How much? More than they make selling the car. So if you go in all Boglehead and tell them you want no loan, you're paying cash, they'll be fine with that and now your minimum price will be $1,000 or $2,000 more. Take the loan. Make 3 payments then pay it off. If you can't do that, then I guess it's worth thousands not to have a loan to you.

Tax Time Sales: Especially with used cars, tax time (right now) is when used car dealers make more sales than the rest of the year. It's because people get a tax refund and go buy a car with the money. They DO raise prices and at auction, prices are higher so used dealers have to pay more for the cars. End of the month is typical for incentives. And as someone else mentioned, yes, there ARE dealer incentives you will never hear of. A good friend of mine went to buy a new Explorer right before the end of the year. He only was later told that the dealer needed to sell 2 more Explorers and that if they did, Ford would give the dealer $3000 for every Explorer they sold the whole year. But the Explorer had a minimum price from Ford or it didn't count. He traded in an old Jeep Cherokee worth about $3000. They gave him $10,000 for it. The salesman told my friend that while he was buying this Explorer, another sales person was also selling one, giving an equally high trade in value. They met the goal. The salesman got a trip to Hawaii for his sales. The dealer will never tell you this up front. They have tons of incentives with ending points at the end of a month, quarter or year. The very end of the year is typically the best time to buy. Like the week between Christmas and New Year.

There are times you can get a very good deal online. I bought my 2013 Subaru Crosstrek Limited through an email. I specified the exact stock number and shot off the email at lunch. The sales guy was out at lunch and the sales manager sent me a response that was an amazing number. I drove there and the sales man didn't believe that he'd have given me that number and had to go talk with the sales manager. I got the price. I financed through them and after 3 months, paid off the car. So yes, you can get a good deal online sometimes. And yes, I had spent 6 months getting prices from other dealers between in person, email and calling.

Is Costco a good deal? If you don't want to negotiate or are bad a negotiating, sure. If you like negotiating, like me, no. I've seen Costco numbers on vehicles I've bought new and I always beat them by numbers of thousands. And I am no pro and no broker. But I have fun with it and don't mind playing hard ball with rocks.

How available is the vehicle? If you want a Nissan Rogue, there are a billion of them out there that nobody's buying. Have at it. You'll get a huge discount. Try to buy a Nissan GT-R that someone ordered and cancelled when it arrived? Be ready to pay way over MSRP for it. It depends. So sure, if that Toyota Rav-4 hybrid has 2 in your region and all dealers have waiting lists, no, you won't get anything off. But if you want a Tundra, take your pick out of the 80 on the lot or 7 on the truck in front of the dealer unloading. Go on dealer websites and look for new vehicles. Filter for the model and even the trim you want. It will tell you at the top how many they have. When they have 100 of them, there ya go. Easy to drop the price. If you have to check 5 dealer sites to find one, nope.

+1....bingo and well said. This should be required reading for those posting questions asking about anything car buying.

Floor plan interest is paid monthly on each car that is floored with the bank. There is no big interest payment coming due. I guess it sounds better. LOL. The markup on non special APR's is has been capped for some time. (Typically 1-2%).

[othermike27]

There is a book I would suggest you attempt to check out from the library or buy off Amazon. It’s called Dont Get Taken Every Time by Remar Sutton. He is a former car dealer and lays out the tricks they can and will pull on you. ...

+1 !!

For more current advice see the lengthy thread started by denovo on car buying: viewtopic.php?t=124638

I have a copy of Remar Sutton's book that I review every time I gear up to go buy a car. Hilarious stories - hopefully dated, but you never know. Last November I went to a dealer to test drive a car, not really ready to buy that day. Young, well-informed and personable sales rep was eager to give me a price so I said OK, give me your bottom-line out-the-door price with a work-up of all the items: selling price, delivery charge, doc fee, tax, title & license. What she brought back from the sales manager was one number scrawled in big green marker across a blank four-square form. She also brought me the detailed workup I asked for, which was at MSRP but totaled to a number several hundred dollars less than the sales manager's number. If you don't know what a four-square is, at least search online, but better yet read Sutton's description of how it can be used against the customer, especially one who has a trade or needs dealer financing.

Ray Shefska's stories and comments on the CarEdge youtube channel are also very entertaining and informative. Also, if you want the sales manager's view of working a customer, see How to Work a Car Deal on Youtube by Jim "Alfa Dawg" Ziegler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6BdGhbqQuI

[Nine5472]

Very interesting and informative. Thanks !

[Mullins]

I did a stint at a car dealership as a salesperson for a long-cherished national brand for a while. To quote one of the salespeople there, who told me in disgust, "the honorable industry of car makers depends on an industry of deceptive tactics to make a sale."

Know what prices are in general for the vehicle you want before you go in to any dealership. They hate an informed buyer.
Know that if you call for a price first, what they tell you is to get you in. Then, somehow, you'll find what you came in for isn't what you want.
Likewise, if you leave and ask for a price, what they'll give you somehow won't be available when you come back.
Don't tell them you're paying cash. Let them believe you'll need financing, you'll get a better price.
Don't go on a Saturday, that's their busiest day. Do go the last day of the month as that's when they're desperate to make their numbers for units sold for the month. They might be getting bonuses based on that. You might be worth $500 to that salesperson even if you buy a vehicle at a price where they get no commission.
Their job is to get you to buy today.
The reason the salesperson has to keep taking your offers to the sales manager is because the sales manager's job is to get you to pay even more, and use the salesperson as the tool to accomplish that.
When they turn you over to the sales manager, it's because they need a higher pressure salesperson to make you buy today.
The entire sales process is designed to slow you down, take up your time and wear you out, so that you say yes.
They're trained with sales lines to overcome all the objections you have.

[stan1]

You also have to decide whether you want the last $500-1000 you possibly could get, or are happy with what the early round of negotiations get you at the dealership.

People have different preferences about that, some people love "winning" a negotiation others don't look forward to this part of a vehicle purchase and will take "good enough".

Agree the old advice of blasting out an email to dealers "hey I'm in the market give me your best price" has not generally worked in a long time (if it ever did). Sure, it may turn out that you did get a good price this way but you still have to follow up to see if there is a better price if that's what you want to do.

In my area there is a lot of inventory on the lots even with "popular" models like RAV PHEVs.

Summer /Fall 2025 will be five years after the 2020 stimulus payments so there probably aren't too many 2020 leasers coming off leases (most leases would be 48 months or less).

[EnjoyIt]

I am decent, but not the best negotiator. I try and get the best price I can, but I’m okay if it’s not the best deal I could have negotiated. My time is worth something to me so if I get to save a days worth of hassle, I’m okay paying a little more for the car to avoid it.

Some people find the game fun and want to squeeze out every dollar they could. I appreciate that, but that is not me. I’m happy squeezing just enough.

[30west]

I'm in the middle of this now so thanks for an informative thread. Can anyone shed light on where the late model cars (ie 2024 and 2025) with less than 5000 miles are coming from? I expect to see lease returns after 2-4 years, but these almost new cars baffle me. Can someone return a car they don't like? Are they lemons? When I ask what the story is i just get a shrug, which makes me suspicious .

[EnjoyIt]

I'm in the middle of this now so thanks for an informative thread. Can anyone shed light on where the late model cars (ie 2024 and 2025) with less than 5000 miles are coming from? I expect to see lease returns after 2-4 years, but these almost new cars baffle me. Can someone return a car they don't like? Are they lemons? When I ask what the story is i just get a shrug, which makes me suspicious .

Some people who bought a car and then realized they wanted something else so they sold it. Some people who had couldn’t afford the car and forced to sell. I’m sure some of those cars are dealer loaners.

[jumbo shrimp]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

I shared this before, but the post was removed because it wasn't related to me or seeking a solution. I believe it is acceptable now. Two great videos (audio recordings) of a real conversation of a guy haggling at a dealership. You can analyze all of it which works great for me when I'm trying to figure something out. This is for a Toyota Corolla.

First Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAKMD8o3iA
Second Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nz0z49b5iM

[chopinpa]

Financing: Dealers get money from the lenders. Period. If you don't finance, they don't get money from any lender. How much? More than they make selling the car. So if you go in all Boglehead and tell them you want no loan, you're paying cash, they'll be fine with that and now your minimum price will be $1,000 or $2,000 more. Take the loan. Make 3 payments then pay it off. If you can't do that, then I guess it's worth thousands not to have a loan to you.

Out of curiosity (since the "make 3 payments than pay the loan off" strategy is exactly what I used when I bought my last car in 2022), is there some rule/law that requires a minimum of 3 payments? As I waited out the 3 months, I wondered what would have happened if I just paid the whole thing off when I received the bill for the first month?

[Retired@58]

Out of curiosity (since the "make 3 payments than pay the loan off" strategy is exactly what I used when I bought my last car in 2022), is there some rule/law that requires a minimum of 3 payments? As I waited out the 3 months, I wondered what would have happened if I just paid the whole thing off when I received the bill for the first month?

Read the contract language. The few I looked at had no language about pre payments or pre payment penalties.

Sometimes the 3 payments seems to be related to the dealership commission, pay off early, no finance sale commission.

Best,

Retired@58

[hudson]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

The methods in denovo's discussion might not work now as I believe it's still mostly a seller's market. viewtopic.php?t=124638
The contact by phone or by email may not work well; those techniques work when supplies are plentiful and it's a buyer's market.

How would non-salesperson me proceed to buy a vehicle in the next few days.
I would decide exactly what I wanted.
I'd check 3-5 nearby dealers and see if they had the vehicle that I wanted.
If that vehicle was rare, I might change to another vehicle.

Then I'd go visit those dealers and see what's real and see what the out-the-door price is. I would not negotiate now. I wouldn't try to get the dealer extras removed. I'd focus on OTD...the out-the-door price. I'd save the preferred contact information for the folks that I talked to. I'd ask what days they were working and I'd ask who their backup person was. I wouldn't hesitate to share my information. I want to build trust and make sure that they understand that I'm a serious buyer will be buying in a few days.

After visiting several dealers, I'd likely have a good feel for the market. I might call around outside my market and feel out distant dealers.
Then I'd negotiate if possible. I'd start on a day when my salespersons were in and tell them that I'm planning on making a deal by 9 p.m. tonight.
Then I'd request their best out the door price. I wouldn't have much to say; I wouldn't want any long discussions about free oil changes, etc. I wouldn't play any games; I'd honestly respond to any questions. I wouldn't talk about selling my old vehicle until the deal on the new one was complete.

Once I had the best deal, I'd do whatever to lock in my purchase.

[illumination]

Not buying around tax refund season is good advice, have a relative that owns a car dealership and he says that's his biggest time of year.

Which is nuts as I've never approached a large purchase that way, but it's definitely a thing.

[EnjoyIt]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

I shared this before, but the post was removed because it wasn't related to me or seeking a solution. I believe it is acceptable now. Two great videos (audio recordings) of a real conversation of a guy haggling at a dealership. You can analyze all of it which works great for me when I'm trying to figure something out. This is for a Toyota Corolla.

First Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAKMD8o3iA
Second Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nz0z49b5iM

I enjoyed these. Thanks

[Yuba]

And always check the math on any sheet they put in front of you... there are often math errors in the dealers favor.

--This is the most important thing. There is never an math error in your favor, and they always separate items out differently on the final paperwork compared to the estimate write-up.

Saved me $1200.

Rick dba Yuba.

[PharmerBrown]

I'm in the middle of this now so thanks for an informative thread. Can anyone shed light on where the late model cars (ie 2024 and 2025) with less than 5000 miles are coming from? I expect to see lease returns after 2-4 years, but these almost new cars baffle me. Can someone return a car they don't like? Are they lemons? When I ask what the story is i just get a shrug, which makes me suspicious .

A lot of them may be service loaners. This is especially common at high end dealerships. Dealerships can "purchase" loaner vehicles from their inventory and sell them as pre-owned or certified. They typically do this between 3000-8000 miles.

[Tirebiter]

Out of curiosity (since the "make 3 payments than pay the loan off" strategy is exactly what I used when I bought my last car in 2022), is there some rule/law that requires a minimum of 3 payments? As I waited out the 3 months, I wondered what would have happened if I just paid the whole thing off when I received the bill for the first month?

Read the contract language. The few I looked at had no language about pre payments or pre payment penalties.

Sometimes the 3 payments seems to be related to the dealership commission, pay off early, no finance sale commission.

Best,

Retired@58

The last time I bought a car, the dealer said something about this 3 payment requirement. The finance guy told me that I would lose my $500 financing incentive if I paid off my loan before then. But my contract said nothing about this. So I paid off the whole loan immediately. I never heard from anybody about losing my financing incentive.

[Jack FFR1846]

Financing: Dealers get money from the lenders. Period. If you don't finance, they don't get money from any lender. How much? More than they make selling the car. So if you go in all Boglehead and tell them you want no loan, you're paying cash, they'll be fine with that and now your minimum price will be $1,000 or $2,000 more. Take the loan. Make 3 payments then pay it off. If you can't do that, then I guess it's worth thousands not to have a loan to you.

Out of curiosity (since the "make 3 payments than pay the loan off" strategy is exactly what I used when I bought my last car in 2022), is there some rule/law that requires a minimum of 3 payments? As I waited out the 3 months, I wondered what would have happened if I just paid the whole thing off when I received the bill for the first month?

This is to keep yourself from being black listed at a dealer which can potentially mean the dealer's network and other dealers friendly with them. If you pay off in less than 3 payments, the finance institution claws back the money from the dealer. While you might not care about this one particular dealer, what if someone crashes into your car, totaling it in a year. You go back to the dealer and can't figure out why you can't even get $1 off MSRP when everyone else is talking about getting $8,000 off MSRP. The interest you pay on 3 payments is really not much. Just pay it and then after the 3rd payment, what I do is pay most of the remaining balance, then on the 5th payment, call to find pay off, and pay it off.

[kinless]

Many thanks to the experienced negotiators for all the tips. I've been watching/reading a bunch of YT and forums on how to best approach without getting fleeced. My ride of 20+ years is finally starting to show issues that would cost much more to fix than it's worth. Looking at replacing it before the situation becomes dire.

Sights are set on a 2025 Hyundai Tucson PHEV. This is something I plan on keeping 15-20 years, so I prefer the top trim with specific exterior and interior colors. That of course narrows the pool down considerably and likely reduces room to negotiate. In fact there are only 5 vehicles within 80 miles as an exact match but they're all still in transit and won't be on the lot until May. This may work to my advantage if it coincides with Memorial Day promotions.

I've already test-driven it in other configurations (had to schlep through the sales associate/manager rigmarole). Of course they tried to sell me outgoing 2024s for a "deal" but there are specific features I prefer so remaining steadfast. Could I pay all cash? Yes. But I'm not going to tell them that. If I can score an outstanding interest rate then it may be more optimal to finance some of it and let the dealership have their "win" in that category.

[edge]

This is essentially the same as saying 'get a car that is in low demand'. Yes, you can negotiate deeper discounts on undesirable vehicles or when auto companies (e.g. Nissan) get themselves into real trouble.

It is really hit or miss and a local concern if a dealer has the car (or cars) you are interested in and is willing to deal. In some cases dealers are maximizing profit per car, in others they are going for volume bonuses, and in some cases the local market is deeply ignorant about car prices so dealer has no need to budge. I often times ask the GM or SM if they can match or beat a brokered deal. If not, I just throw it to the brokers.

Not a dealer but a huge car nut who actually has gone to negotiate for friends because I find it fun. I also have friends who are business managers and sales people at dealers. There's a ton of variables out there. Just some random facts.

Floor Plan. Dealers pay what's called floor plan which is a loan on the new car as it's awaiting getting sold. A big interest payment becomes due if it sits at the dealer too long. I just watched Car Edge (youtube) and they had a dealer network owner talking about this. He said he would love for someone to come in and specifically ask for an aged out floor plan car. These are the most expensive cars for them and they want them out of there.

Financing: Dealers get money from the lenders. Period. If you don't finance, they don't get money from any lender. How much? More than they make selling the car. So if you go in all Boglehead and tell them you want no loan, you're paying cash, they'll be fine with that and now your minimum price will be $1,000 or $2,000 more. Take the loan. Make 3 payments then pay it off. If you can't do that, then I guess it's worth thousands not to have a loan to you.

Tax Time Sales: Especially with used cars, tax time (right now) is when used car dealers make more sales than the rest of the year. It's because people get a tax refund and go buy a car with the money. They DO raise prices and at auction, prices are higher so used dealers have to pay more for the cars. End of the month is typical for incentives. And as someone else mentioned, yes, there ARE dealer incentives you will never hear of. A good friend of mine went to buy a new Explorer right before the end of the year. He only was later told that the dealer needed to sell 2 more Explorers and that if they did, Ford would give the dealer $3000 for every Explorer they sold the whole year. But the Explorer had a minimum price from Ford or it didn't count. He traded in an old Jeep Cherokee worth about $3000. They gave him $10,000 for it. The salesman told my friend that while he was buying this Explorer, another sales person was also selling one, giving an equally high trade in value. They met the goal. The salesman got a trip to Hawaii for his sales. The dealer will never tell you this up front. They have tons of incentives with ending points at the end of a month, quarter or year. The very end of the year is typically the best time to buy. Like the week between Christmas and New Year.

There are times you can get a very good deal online. I bought my 2013 Subaru Crosstrek Limited through an email. I specified the exact stock number and shot off the email at lunch. The sales guy was out at lunch and the sales manager sent me a response that was an amazing number. I drove there and the sales man didn't believe that he'd have given me that number and had to go talk with the sales manager. I got the price. I financed through them and after 3 months, paid off the car. So yes, you can get a good deal online sometimes. And yes, I had spent 6 months getting prices from other dealers between in person, email and calling.

Is Costco a good deal? If you don't want to negotiate or are bad a negotiating, sure. If you like negotiating, like me, no. I've seen Costco numbers on vehicles I've bought new and I always beat them by numbers of thousands. And I am no pro and no broker. But I have fun with it and don't mind playing hard ball with rocks.

How available is the vehicle? If you want a Nissan Rogue, there are a billion of them out there that nobody's buying. Have at it. You'll get a huge discount. Try to buy a Nissan GT-R that someone ordered and cancelled when it arrived? Be ready to pay way over MSRP for it. It depends. So sure, if that Toyota Rav-4 hybrid has 2 in your region and all dealers have waiting lists, no, you won't get anything off. But if you want a Tundra, take your pick out of the 80 on the lot or 7 on the truck in front of the dealer unloading. Go on dealer websites and look for new vehicles. Filter for the model and even the trim you want. It will tell you at the top how many they have. When they have 100 of them, there ya go. Easy to drop the price. If you have to check 5 dealer sites to find one, nope.

+1....bingo and well said. This should be required reading for those posting questions asking about anything car buying.

[Tirebiter]

Out of curiosity (since the "make 3 payments than pay the loan off" strategy is exactly what I used when I bought my last car in 2022), is there some rule/law that requires a minimum of 3 payments? As I waited out the 3 months, I wondered what would have happened if I just paid the whole thing off when I received the bill for the first month?

This is to keep yourself from being black listed at a dealer which can potentially mean the dealer's network and other dealers friendly with them. If you pay off in less than 3 payments, the finance institution claws back the money from the dealer. While you might not care about this one particular dealer, what if someone crashes into your car, totaling it in a year. You go back to the dealer and can't figure out why you can't even get $1 off MSRP when everyone else is talking about getting $8,000 off MSRP. The interest you pay on 3 payments is really not much. Just pay it and then after the 3rd payment, what I do is pay most of the remaining balance, then on the 5th payment, call to find pay off, and pay it off.

Interesting. I suppose this could be a compelling factor if you live in a small town with access to only a handful of dealers. In a huge city with access to tons of dealerships and every conceivable brand of car, the idea of a dealer network having my name on a blacklist is kind of amusing, almost flattering. I’ve never suffered from a lack of car salesmen trying to take my money.

In my most recent experience, I actually tried to pay in cash, but the dealer made it exceedingly difficult, refusing to take a check or credit card payment. And neither my purchase nor loan agreements said anything about making three loan payments. So, I have zero regrets for paying off the loan immediately.

[Padlin]

I'm in the middle of this now so thanks for an informative thread. Can anyone shed light on where the late model cars (ie 2024 and 2025) with less than 5000 miles are coming from? I expect to see lease returns after 2-4 years, but these almost new cars baffle me. Can someone return a car they don't like? Are they lemons? When I ask what the story is i just get a shrug, which makes me suspicious .

A lot of them may be service loaners. This is especially common at high end dealerships. Dealerships can "purchase" loaner vehicles from their inventory and sell them as pre-owned or certified. They typically do this between 3000-8000 miles.

Back when I worked autobody at a dealer all the managers got cars to drive, when needed these were used as loaners, but not all that often. When they got up to a certain mileage they would have to turn them in to be sold.

[carolinaman]

There’s a lot of talk about how to approach buying a car from a dealer, mostly from us consumers. What to do and what not to do. I’d be interested in hearing advice from your perspective. Thanks!

I'm not a dealer or salesperson but am good friends with the sales manager of a local dealership and I have asked him this very question. He has always said those that get the best deals are those who negotiate face to face, have done some homework on dealer costs of the vehicle and are prepared to "dicker" on price. They make a lot of their money through options so if you are adding lots of options, they can negotiate even further.

He said they have set pricing that they give to everyone who emails them requesting their "best out the door price". It is never their best price because it doesn't take into account dealer sales incentives or excess inventory, etc. that might cause them to lower prices even further. He also said, they can't afford to hire someone to answer all the hundreds of emails they get a day asking for the best price and do the required legwork to truly figure out the lowest possible price for every vehicle and combination of options on their lot. So they have someone dedicated to email relations who just gives a predetermined price to remain competitive and calls it good.

YMMV

I agree with this. As a buyer, do your research first. Know what car and trim package you want. You should test drive one in advance. Then go to the dealership and negotiate the price. Be realistic in your negotiation. The most powerful thing you can do is get up and walk out. That should get you your best price. If you are ready to buy that day, negotiating should get you your best price. Conversely, if you walk out and come back later, you have weakened your bargain position.

I used to take my wife with me when buying a car. But I learned the sales person would read her and we never got their best price. After that, we would look at cars and generally agree on what we wanted. Then I would go to another dealer and negotiate. I have learned over time, that some dealers are more aggressive about price than others, and those are the ones we buy from.

[atwnsw]

If you are buying a Porsche, Audi or BMW, I highly recommend spending time on https://leasehackr.com/ as this is a great free website where you can see what auto brokers are discounting specific models without any hassle. I hate the in-person car buying experience and buy online by searching national dealer inventory. In addition, I prefer to buy Certified Pre-Owned, 1-2 years old, in a perfect world although my wife's last car purchase was new using a leasehackr broker.

[hudson]

I have learned over time, that some dealers are more aggressive about price than others, and those are the ones we buy from.

In my experience, the smaller town dealers are more ready to negotiate.
The large, heavily advertised, and big town dealers will talk benefits of buying from them but won't drop their price a nickle.
That was the case during the buyer's market of 2018; I'm not sure about the seller's market of 2025.

[MCST]

I appreciate the dealers that have the "one price," no-negotiation model. You know what you're getting when you go in. Of course they will try to upsell you on ceramic coatings, extended warranties, and maintenance plans, but those are easy to say no to. I find those dealers a lot easier to deal with.

[carolinaman]

I have learned over time, that some dealers are more aggressive about price than others, and those are the ones we buy from.

In my experience, the smaller town dealers are more ready to negotiate.
The large, heavily advertised, and big town dealers will talk benefits of buying from them but won't drop their price a nickle.
That was the case during the buyer's market of 2018; I'm not sure about the seller's market of 2025.

True. Charlotte dealers are hard to deal with. But you can negotiate good deals with dealers in nearby small towns. We have gone as far out as 50 miles to get good deals.