Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Live in Cincy. Have a 2.5 ton heat pump for a bit over 1800 sq ft. Full brick ranch built in early 2000's. The heat pump works great at anything down to around 33/34*. Used to depend on the heat strips but the $5-600 month electric bills got old quick. We put in a Harmon Accentra Pellet Stove Insert and use it as our primary heat source when it dips below freezing.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Bit of an outlier on this thread. Zone 8b, California. Replaced our HVAC and gas furnace in November with a 5-ton Bosch HP, 2-zones, for a 2,950 sq ft 2003 home. Ambient temps rarely drop below 30F here. Set for 65F while sleeping and 68F when awakening. Raise to 70F when guests are anticipated. Got to keep them happy! Looking forward to seeing how it does during our hot summers.
To answer OP’s question, our electricity usage this month went to 1,173 kWh compared to 526 kWh the same period the year before. However, our natural gas bill went down to $52 compared to $300 using a gas furnace.
Edit: realized I was talking horticultural zone 8b while OP posted a climate zone. Ours is zone 3.
To answer OP’s question, our electricity usage this month went to 1,173 kWh compared to 526 kWh the same period the year before. However, our natural gas bill went down to $52 compared to $300 using a gas furnace.
Edit: realized I was talking horticultural zone 8b while OP posted a climate zone. Ours is zone 3.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
I am not sure that they are right. It will depend on the insulation and airtightness of the home, of course. As I say, the electric bar kicks in - that's the backup.ETK517 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:29 pm65 degrees is not sufficient for me - that was what I've seen others say would be tough to maintain in very cold temps.Valuethinker wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:08 pm 65 F indoors at what outdoor temperature?
Heat Pumps come (normally?) with backup strip heating. Essentially a Coefficient of Performance of 1.0. That should cope with pretty much anything a gas furnace can cope with. It's just an expensive way to heat your house if you have high electricity rates. You'd only not have that option fitted if you did have another backup source of heat.
People here are posting that they are perfectly comfortable. There is psychology in this, because you can't (efficiently) rapidly boost the household temperature with a heat pump -- they run "low and slow" rather than "hot and fast".
If you have rads, you will need bigger rads, most likely (at least compared to the flat panel steel ones that predominate in the UK, I know my parent's had cast iron rads which were a lot thicker, but I don't know if that was also true in New York City (I presume so, but I don't know)).
Actually the primary justification is decarbonisation. But efficiency is part of that.I want my house to readily hit 70 in the winter. In the NYC metro climate, it needs to be able to do that at 0F outside (two weeks ago, the nighttime lows were single digits for 5+ consecutive nights). Since the primary justification for heat pumps is efficiency/cost savings, running an inefficient, expensive heat strip constantly defeats the purpose. In my particular use case, it was also not possible to install heat strips.
NYC doesn't hover around 0 F for much of the winter, does it?
https://www.climatestotravel.com/climat ... s/new-york is telling me that
So that suggests in the average of the coldest month, you are at a temperature where even an American heat pump should run at least COP = 2.0. And you can get ones which run close to 4.0.At the Central Park Weather Station, the daily average temperature ranges from 0.8 °C (33.4 °F) in January to 25.3 °C (77.5 °F) in July.
Note what it says about aesthetic and cultural preferences.Your sources report that in Scandinavia, heat pumps are heavily supplemented not just by communal heat but also by wood and other electric heat sources:Many homes continue to use wood stoves after having installed a heat pump as a study from the Oslo Centre for Research on Environmentally Friendly Energy (CREE) on heat pumps shows, albeit less frequently. This resulted in about a quarter less wood being used for heating in 2021 compared to 2010. The continued use of wood is at least in part a result of aesthetic and cultural preferences.
In Finland, heat pumps are often installed as an additional heating system complementing mainly electric heating.
I don't imagine Scandinavia will get onto the problem of urban air pollution from wood smoke & particles in a hurry - due to cultural traditions. But, it's the new frontier in air pollution: PM 2.5 and PM 1.0 particles. The health results are.. really concerning. And an estimated 30-40% of particulates in gentrified neighbourhoods of London in January can be from wood fires (nobody in urban England is going to heat with wood for economic reasons, it's too expensive relative to gas, it will all be aesthetic and largely to do with gentrification).
In any case, heat pumps are taking off in Scandinavia.
You've assumed that they are not comfortable. But people do enjoy perfectly comfortable winters with them.There is a lot of talk of efficiency, but I didn't see much on the main measure of performance I care about as a consumer, which is reliable, comfortable indoor air temperatures without supplementation.
Some hypotheses:If there are much better heat pumps out there then I'm not sure why they're not coming stateside.
1. Because HVAC is a very conservative market. Nobody wants to take a risk that they will be sued by an unhappy client. And the US is ... technologically advanced in some areas, but surprisingly backward in others (banking comes to mind, or high speed rail).
2. And we haven't said these HPs are not available, but rather that they are available from Japanese manufacturers in the USA, but not American ones (generally). Indeed in Europe the boiler makers like Viessman and Valliant and Worcester-Bosch have only just clicked onto them.
3. Note that the commercial market is quite different. The Japanese dominate in many countries, and plenty of offices use HPs but don't have gas heat.
4. Another reason is that the demand hasn't been there because of low natural gas prices in North America relative to any place (except Russia). They are much higher in Europe and Japan. (I presume South Korea but I don't know anything about heating systems in South Korea, which again has a pretty extreme climate, much like Japan). (Natural gas boilers at least are quite a bit cheaper than Heat Pumps - talking UK numbers here, and I assume North American furnaces it is similar, although one usually does a whole HVAC solution so harder to compare like with like. At UK electricity prices (which are high relative to gas) there's not much operating cost saving).
5. A last reason is perhaps Air-to-Water v Air-to-Air. I am not sure what the Japanese market is (Air to Air?) but the European market is Air to Water - and there's not much demand for that in North America (mostly in the NE & Cda in older buildings).
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
I am located in the US (mid-Atlantic region) and I have had heat pumps in several houses (they all came with them) since 2003 so I am quite familiar with them as I said they are common in my area. If you get a bog standard single speed US made heat pump it will struggle once you start getting below 25-32F. But there are plenty of heat pumps today rated to put their full output down to -5F or lower (these are mostly Asian brands though many are now rebadged by US makes).ETK517 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:10 amThis is contrary to the advice of licensed HVAC folks, my GC, and posters here, who have said their heat pump alone would struggle to maintain 65 degree indoor air temps. If you are not in the US then you may be unfamiliar with the typical systems that are installed here as well as expectations for US consumers as to indoor air temperatures.THY4373 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:31 am You don't need a backup heat source in your climate as a cold climate heat pump could easily cover NYC.
I did a lot of research when I installed my two systems (one upstairs and one downstairs). I went with Mitsubishi P series heat pumps which are their light commercial range. The have exceeded my expectations for comfort, noise and efficiency. My upstairs Mitsubishi P series install does have resistance backup strips but they have never been used (I have them switched off). On the coldest day this winter 10F in my neck of the woods it was maintaining 72 F no problem and it is not even a cold climate model. 10F is about as cold as it ever gets where I am.
As I said I am not saying heat pumps are for everybody (they aren't and I think they are over sold in places with high electric costs) but it is total BS they cannot heat a house above 65F. Installing heat pumps is also more complicated because sizing them correctly is much more important than with an old school furnace.
And to be clear I have extremely high expectations of my HVAC. Mitsubishi P series are regarded by many as one of the best, if not the best, AC/heat pumps currently available for sale in North America. I maintain 72-74 temps in the winter and the same in summer. I want a system that is silent both indoors and out, highly efficient, reliable and able to maintain the temps I set. They do all that. There is a reason I didn't go with a cheap single speed Trane/Carrier/Lenox/whatever 14 SEER cube shape AC/heat pump and it wasn't because I have lower expectations than the average US consumer for HVAC.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
The Japanese HVAC market is air-to-air.Valuethinker wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:44 pm 5. A last reason is perhaps Air-to-Water v Air-to-Air. I am not sure what the Japanese market is (Air to Air?) but the European market is Air to Water - and there's not much demand for that in North America (mostly in the NE & Cda in older buildings).
There are tens of millions of air-to-water heat pumps in Japan, but they're used for domestic hot water. It's rare to use it for space heating.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Quoting from https://rapidtransition.org/stories/hea ... w-problem/
"In Finland, where temperatures can reach -50°C in the long winter months, the heat pump market increased by 50 percent in 2022, with 200,000 pumps sold in a single year. Around 41 percent of Finnish households have a heat pump installed. In Norway, where the average winter temperatures sit at -6.8°C, the heat pump market grew by 25 percent in 2022. Almost two thirds of Norwegian households now have a heat pump installed, which makes chilly Norway the country with the highest heat pump penetration in the world. In Sweden, there are 427 installed heat pumps per every 1,000 households. Despite all these markets being relatively mature, they are still delivering double-digit growth rates each year. "
This article is another example "You can walk around in a T-shirt’: how Norway brought heat pumps in from the cold":
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ld-heating
"In Finland, where temperatures can reach -50°C in the long winter months, the heat pump market increased by 50 percent in 2022, with 200,000 pumps sold in a single year. Around 41 percent of Finnish households have a heat pump installed. In Norway, where the average winter temperatures sit at -6.8°C, the heat pump market grew by 25 percent in 2022. Almost two thirds of Norwegian households now have a heat pump installed, which makes chilly Norway the country with the highest heat pump penetration in the world. In Sweden, there are 427 installed heat pumps per every 1,000 households. Despite all these markets being relatively mature, they are still delivering double-digit growth rates each year. "
This article is another example "You can walk around in a T-shirt’: how Norway brought heat pumps in from the cold":
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ld-heating
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Mind me asking what that cost?mgensler wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 6:14 am We have 4 cold climate Fujitsu one to one heat pumps in zone 4th a total of 4 tons installed. We sized them based on our gas usage of the old furnaces and then subtracted the estimated improvements in air seal and insulation. We don't have comparative numbers to yours but overall our electric usage dropped 2-3% and our gas dropped to zero after we installed them. The house is much more comfortable, the humidity in the winter is 10% higher, and we were able to remove the two humidifiers.
Heat pumps or mini splits were advertised to me some years ago, but I believe the quoted costs were high, if I can remember correctly. And right now I'm exploring either
A) Running a 3rd zone of heat to basement before finishing said basement or
B) Exploring a heat pump/mini split setup.
I have 2 zones of natural gas, baseboard heat, approx 1700 sq ft, with an open and ready 3rd zone on the boiler which was quoted as costing me $4,400 to run baseboard heat, which will fully heat about 400 square feet of living space. But then I may need a window AC in the summer. Thanks.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
FUD.ETK517 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:10 amThis is contrary to the advice of licensed HVAC folks, my GC, and posters here, who have said their heat pump alone would struggle to maintain 65 degree indoor air temps.THY4373 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:31 am You don't need a backup heat source in your climate as a cold climate heat pump could easily cover NYC.
Our cold climate heat pump puts out approximately the same amount of BTUs at -15 F and with a COP of 1.8. And below -15 F it continues to pump out subtantial heat down to -30 F. Some chinese cold climate heatpumps put out equivalent BTUs down to -20 F.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
I'm not an HVAC person, so the references to BTUs and COPs aren't particularly helpful. I'd like a system that (alone and without use of backup heat sources) can keep my home at 70F inside, for an extended period, when it's 0F outside. I do not really care how that happens or the theories underlying how it might be possible.prioritarian wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:45 pmFUD.ETK517 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:10 am
This is contrary to the advice of licensed HVAC folks, my GC, and posters here, who have said their heat pump alone would struggle to maintain 65 degree indoor air temps.
Our cold climate heat pump puts out approximately the same amount of BTUs at -15 F and with a COP of 1.8. And below -15 F it continues to pump out subtantial heat down to -30 F. Some chinese cold climate heatpumps put out equivalent BTUs down to -20 F.
Not sure how other people reporting that their heat pumps don't perform well = FUD.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
So a British Thermal Unit (BTU) is a measure of how much heat an appliance puts out (it can also be used to measure how much "cold" it puts out). Always has to be at a given input temperature (ie the outside air temperature).ETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:04 pmI'm not an HVAC person, so the references to BTUs and COPs aren't particularly helpful. I'd like a system that (alone and without use of backup heat sources) can keep my home at 70F inside, for an extended period, when it's 0F outside. I do not really care how that happens or the theories underlying how it might be possible.prioritarian wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:45 pm
FUD.
Our cold climate heat pump puts out approximately the same amount of BTUs at -15 F and with a COP of 1.8. And below -15 F it continues to pump out subtantial heat down to -30 F. Some chinese cold climate heatpumps put out equivalent BTUs down to -20 F.
Not sure how other people reporting that their heat pumps don't perform well = FUD.
Coefficient of Performance is how much heat or cold is moved for burning 1 kwhr of electricity. An air conditioner is just a 1 way heat pump. If it has a COP of 3.0 then for every kwhr it uses to power the pump, it moves 3 kwhr of heat out of your home into the outside atmosphere. A heat pump can do that, but it also has a heating mode and basically 3.0 or above is good performance, but there are now HPs that can do over 4.0.
1 kwhr = 3412 BTU
It does always depend on outside air temperature (v desired inside temperature). The greater the gap, the lower the COP.
When COP = 1.0, then that's the efficiency of electric bar heating. Note that a gas furnace (a really modern High Efficiency one) has a COP of about 0.9-0.95.
Complicating things, the metric is now "Seasonal COP". But over to the experts on that.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Because the do not have cold climate heaptumps and/or a deficient HVAC/ducting install (very common, unfortunately).ETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:04 pmI'm not an HVAC person, so the references to BTUs and COPs aren't particularly helpful. I'd like a system that (alone and without use of backup heat sources) can keep my home at 70F inside, for an extended period, when it's 0F outside. I do not really care how that happens or the theories underlying how it might be possible.prioritarian wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:45 pm
FUD.
Our cold climate heat pump puts out approximately the same amount of BTUs at -15 F and with a COP of 1.8. And below -15 F it continues to pump out subtantial heat down to -30 F. Some chinese cold climate heatpumps put out equivalent BTUs down to -20 F.
Not sure how other people reporting that their heat pumps don't perform well = FUD.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
While I appreciate the explanation, it still doesn't answer the basic question of whether a heat pump can maintain 70F indoor temps consistently when it's 0F outside without relying on backup heat. That's what ordinary consumers, not HVAC enthusiasts, care about.Valuethinker wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:12 pmSo a British Thermal Unit (BTU) is a measure of how much heat an appliance puts out (it can also be used to measure how much "cold" it puts out). Always has to be at a given input temperature (ie the outside air temperature).ETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:04 pm
I'm not an HVAC person, so the references to BTUs and COPs aren't particularly helpful. I'd like a system that (alone and without use of backup heat sources) can keep my home at 70F inside, for an extended period, when it's 0F outside. I do not really care how that happens or the theories underlying how it might be possible.
Not sure how other people reporting that their heat pumps don't perform well = FUD.
Coefficient of Performance is how much heat or cold is moved for burning 1 kwhr of electricity. An air conditioner is just a 1 way heat pump. If it has a COP of 3.0 then for every kwhr it uses to power the pump, it moves 3 kwhr of heat out of your home into the outside atmosphere. A heat pump can do that, but it also has a heating mode and basically 3.0 or above is good performance, but there are now HPs that can do over 4.0.
1 kwhr = 3412 BTU
It does always depend on outside air temperature (v desired inside temperature). The greater the gap, the lower the COP.
When COP = 1.0, then that's the efficiency of electric bar heating. Note that a gas furnace (a really modern High Efficiency one) has a COP of about 0.9-0.95.
Complicating things, the metric is now "Seasonal COP". But over to the experts on that.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Yes, my fujitsu mini split has zero issues doing what you describe.ETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:32 pmWhile I appreciate the explanation, it still doesn't answer the basic question of whether a heat pump can maintain 70F indoor temps consistently when it's 0F outside without relying on backup heat. That's what ordinary consumers, not HVAC enthusiasts, care about.Valuethinker wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:12 pm
So a British Thermal Unit (BTU) is a measure of how much heat an appliance puts out (it can also be used to measure how much "cold" it puts out). Always has to be at a given input temperature (ie the outside air temperature).
Coefficient of Performance is how much heat or cold is moved for burning 1 kwhr of electricity. An air conditioner is just a 1 way heat pump. If it has a COP of 3.0 then for every kwhr it uses to power the pump, it moves 3 kwhr of heat out of your home into the outside atmosphere. A heat pump can do that, but it also has a heating mode and basically 3.0 or above is good performance, but there are now HPs that can do over 4.0.
1 kwhr = 3412 BTU
It does always depend on outside air temperature (v desired inside temperature). The greater the gap, the lower the COP.
When COP = 1.0, then that's the efficiency of electric bar heating. Note that a gas furnace (a really modern High Efficiency one) has a COP of about 0.9-0.95.
Complicating things, the metric is now "Seasonal COP". But over to the experts on that.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
My house is zoned, with the master bedroom on its own zone. What I do in this situation is just run a AC for a few minutes around bedtime. When it’s cool outside it takes no time at all to cool off the roomETK517 wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:09 am Fascinating discussion given other heat pump threads here express incredulity at any mention of performance issues. 65 degrees is not warm enough for me during the evening (more like 68-70), yet I also prefer to sleep cold (I usually turn the heat down to 58, though it rarely gets that cold). I also tend to heat my house to 70 or 72 in periods of extreme low temperatures because it just feels colder inside due to drafts and the like. Sounds like a heat pump is not a good solution in that case.
In any case, if you want to vary the temp in your room a lot throughout the day, that’s gonna be a challenge with any heat only solution. It’s not specific to heat pumps
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
I’m certain my Bosch could, but to be fair I’ve only witnessed down to 8-9 degrees. But I’ve kept one zone at 75, so a similar splitETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:32 pm While I appreciate the explanation, it still doesn't answer the basic question of whether a heat pump can maintain 70F indoor temps consistently when it's 0F outside without relying on backup heat. That's what ordinary consumers, not HVAC enthusiasts, care about.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
A properly sized cold climate heat pump would have no issues with that.ETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:32 pm
While I appreciate the explanation, it still doesn't answer the basic question of whether a heat pump can maintain 70F indoor temps consistently when it's 0F outside without relying on backup heat. That's what ordinary consumers, not HVAC enthusiasts, care about.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
It was $28k in the summer of 2021. This included installing new ductwork for three of the units and demo of the old furnaces/HVAC/ductwork. It was part of a major remodel that included new kitchen down to the studs.YeahBuddy wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:10 amMind me asking what that cost?mgensler wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 6:14 am We have 4 cold climate Fujitsu one to one heat pumps in zone 4th a total of 4 tons installed. We sized them based on our gas usage of the old furnaces and then subtracted the estimated improvements in air seal and insulation. We don't have comparative numbers to yours but overall our electric usage dropped 2-3% and our gas dropped to zero after we installed them. The house is much more comfortable, the humidity in the winter is 10% higher, and we were able to remove the two humidifiers.
Heat pumps or mini splits were advertised to me some years ago, but I believe the quoted costs were high, if I can remember correctly. And right now I'm exploring either
A) Running a 3rd zone of heat to basement before finishing said basement or
B) Exploring a heat pump/mini split setup.
I have 2 zones of natural gas, baseboard heat, approx 1700 sq ft, with an open and ready 3rd zone on the boiler which was quoted as costing me $4,400 to run baseboard heat, which will fully heat about 400 square feet of living space. But then I may need a window AC in the summer. Thanks.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
This question has been answered several times in this thread, plus the dozens that have preceeded it on the same subject.ETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:32 pmWhile I appreciate the explanation, it still doesn't answer the basic question of whether a heat pump can maintain 70F indoor temps consistently when it's 0F outside without relying on backup heat. That's what ordinary consumers, not HVAC enthusiasts, care about.Valuethinker wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:12 pm
So a British Thermal Unit (BTU) is a measure of how much heat an appliance puts out (it can also be used to measure how much "cold" it puts out). Always has to be at a given input temperature (ie the outside air temperature).
Coefficient of Performance is how much heat or cold is moved for burning 1 kwhr of electricity. An air conditioner is just a 1 way heat pump. If it has a COP of 3.0 then for every kwhr it uses to power the pump, it moves 3 kwhr of heat out of your home into the outside atmosphere. A heat pump can do that, but it also has a heating mode and basically 3.0 or above is good performance, but there are now HPs that can do over 4.0.
1 kwhr = 3412 BTU
It does always depend on outside air temperature (v desired inside temperature). The greater the gap, the lower the COP.
When COP = 1.0, then that's the efficiency of electric bar heating. Note that a gas furnace (a really modern High Efficiency one) has a COP of about 0.9-0.95.
Complicating things, the metric is now "Seasonal COP". But over to the experts on that.
My system can heat my house to 70F easily at 0F outside. I have have no backup heat strips. And I have high ceilings and big windows. I installed my mini splits myself several years ago.
Old school equipment that most HVAC contractors want to install is rather inefficient and won't heat very good below 32F or so. The current technology is far more efficient, but contractors are having a tough time adapting to the new technology.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
It can be difficult to get a good bid from most contractors, any new efficient technology is frequently discouraged and they want to install an old school system that a relatively untrained crew can slap in place.YeahBuddy wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:10 amMind me asking what that cost?mgensler wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 6:14 am We have 4 cold climate Fujitsu one to one heat pumps in zone 4th a total of 4 tons installed. We sized them based on our gas usage of the old furnaces and then subtracted the estimated improvements in air seal and insulation. We don't have comparative numbers to yours but overall our electric usage dropped 2-3% and our gas dropped to zero after we installed them. The house is much more comfortable, the humidity in the winter is 10% higher, and we were able to remove the two humidifiers.
Heat pumps or mini splits were advertised to me some years ago, but I believe the quoted costs were high, if I can remember correctly. And right now I'm exploring either
A) Running a 3rd zone of heat to basement before finishing said basement or
B) Exploring a heat pump/mini split setup.
I have 2 zones of natural gas, baseboard heat, approx 1700 sq ft, with an open and ready 3rd zone on the boiler which was quoted as costing me $4,400 to run baseboard heat, which will fully heat about 400 square feet of living space. But then I may need a window AC in the summer. Thanks.
I got bids that were $20,000 for a simple mini split installation, I did the job myself. After buying all the equipment and tools at retail, I spent less than $4,200.
A two man experienced crew could have completed the the job on a lazy afternoon.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Which location or US climate zone are you in?ondarvr wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:25 pmThis question has been answered several times in this thread, plus the dozens that have preceeded it on the same subject.ETK517 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:32 pm
While I appreciate the explanation, it still doesn't answer the basic question of whether a heat pump can maintain 70F indoor temps consistently when it's 0F outside without relying on backup heat. That's what ordinary consumers, not HVAC enthusiasts, care about.
My system can heat my house to 70F easily at 0F outside. I have have no backup heat strips. And I have high ceilings and big windows. I installed my mini splits myself several years ago.
Old school equipment that most HVAC contractors want to install is rather inefficient and won't heat very good below 32F or so. The current technology is far more efficient, but contractors are having a tough time adapting to the new technology.
That's always key to these discussions:
- insulation of house
- what climate zone one is in
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
If the reason why people have bad experiences with heat pumps is that HVAC pros and contractors don't understand the technology, then it's not mature enough for me to adopt it.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Buy/install what you want. I am not sure why you are going in circles here. If you want to believe the tech isn't mature fine go with something else.ETK517 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:41 am If the reason why people have bad experiences with heat pumps is that HVAC pros and contractors don't understand the technology, then it's not mature enough for me to adopt it.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
I think by definition it is not mature if professionals in the field largely don't understand how to install it correctly.THY4373 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:51 amBuy/install what you want. I am not sure why you are going in circles here. If you want to believe the tech isn't mature fine go with something else.ETK517 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:41 am If the reason why people have bad experiences with heat pumps is that HVAC pros and contractors don't understand the technology, then it's not mature enough for me to adopt it.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
I'm in zone 6 with higher than normal summer temperatures -10 to +113. Insulation is nothing special and the windows and high ceilings make heating and cooling a bit more difficult.Valuethinker wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 3:39 amWhich location or US climate zone are you in?ondarvr wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:25 pm
This question has been answered several times in this thread, plus the dozens that have preceeded it on the same subject.
My system can heat my house to 70F easily at 0F outside. I have have no backup heat strips. And I have high ceilings and big windows. I installed my mini splits myself several years ago.
Old school equipment that most HVAC contractors want to install is rather inefficient and won't heat very good below 32F or so. The current technology is far more efficient, but contractors are having a tough time adapting to the new technology.
That's always key to these discussions:
- insulation of house
- what climate zone one is in
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
This aspect has been changing. Technicians are becoming more familiar with it because customers are demanding better performance. The actual technology isn't new globally, just in the US where energy costs tend to be much lower than the rest of the world. This resulted in low performance old technology equipment being installed for decades after better equipment was available.ETK517 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:17 amTHY4373 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:51 am
Buy/install what you want. I am not sure why you are going in circles here. If you want to believe the tech isn't mature fine go with something else.
I think by definition it is not mature if professionals in the field largely don't understand how to install it correctly.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Heatpumps outsell all other heating technology in the USA by a large degree.
Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
Well a heat pump is exactly the same technology as an air conditioner so it is either as mature or immature as air conditioning technology because an air conditioner is a heat pump. So by your definition the same installers shouldn't be trusted to install an air conditioner and you know what I agree with that. I didn't educate myself on HVAC technology because I wanted to be an HVAC hobbyist, it was because finding a decent installer is very difficult. The number of installers who wanted to replace my existing downstairs gas furnace with another 80k BTU beast for 1200 square feet was amazing it was hilariously oversized and caused comfort issues. I had to teach myself to do a Manual J (needed for proper sizing of any HVAC system) because the only person I could find to do it locally had a four month waiting list. As I said install whatever you want there are plenty of great options out there these days.ETK517 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:17 amI think by definition it is not mature if professionals in the field largely don't understand how to install it correctly.THY4373 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:51 am
Buy/install what you want. I am not sure why you are going in circles here. If you want to believe the tech isn't mature fine go with something else.
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Re: Heat pump kwh usage as sole source of home heat
My installer was incredible to work with. I think as long as you stay away from installers that are politically and/or technically opposed (e.g. I don't want to learn how to install them) to heatpumps and use an installer that has good reviews for heatpump installs there should not be any problems.THY4373 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:44 pmWell a heat pump is exactly the same technology as an air conditioner so it is either as mature or immature as air conditioning technology because an air conditioner is a heat pump. So by your definition the same installers shouldn't be trusted to install an air conditioner and you know what I agree with that. I didn't educate myself on HVAC technology because I wanted to be an HVAC hobbyist, it was because finding a decent installer is very difficult. The number of installers who wanted to replace my existing downstairs gas furnace with another 80k BTU beast for 1200 square feet was amazing it was hilariously oversized and caused comfort issues. I had to teach myself to do a Manual J (needed for proper sizing of any HVAC system) because the only person I could find to do it locally had a four month waiting list. As I said install whatever you want there are plenty of great options out there these days.ETK517 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:17 am
I think by definition it is not mature if professionals in the field largely don't understand how to install it correctly.
And as you point out, heatpumps are a mature technology:

https://the-energy-age.com/2025/01/31/h ... -furnaces/