[Resolved] Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

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rogue_economist
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by rogue_economist »

HooCares wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:52 pm
rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:15 pm I wouldn't bother with a lawyer, 49 states are at will employment and they don't need a good reason to get rid of you. A lawyer will just use up your funds.
These types of cases are taken on contingency. He has a lot of money, it may be worth spending a few $100 getting an opinion. Sometimes you can get a go away settlement.
A good lawyer isn't taking this on contingency if they take it at all.
At will employment stacks the deck in favor of the employer. They can fire OP for any reason not explicitly protected by law and there is no recourse. Why would the company bother to settle when there is no case against them?
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Dufus
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Dufus »

Absolutely contact an employment lawyer. The HR Department absolutely will try to get you to sign things you do NOT have to sign. Don't sign ANYTHING unless it's in exchange for something of value. HR is there to protect the company from YOU.

It's not worth the headache to stay if you have to work with an axxhole in a stressful environment.

You probably don't have to give 2 weeks notice unless there are some rewards you won't get otherwise (accrued vacation). If you quit right now, they still have to offer COBRA.

Enjoy your life. You can afford it.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:59 pm
HooCares wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:52 pm

These types of cases are taken on contingency. He has a lot of money, it may be worth spending a few $100 getting an opinion. Sometimes you can get a go away settlement.
A good lawyer isn't taking this on contingency if they take it at all.
At will employment stacks the deck in favor of the employer. They can fire OP for any reason not explicitly protected by law and there is no recourse. Why would the company bother to settle when there is no case against them?
*not explicitly protected by law*

Cough - ADEA - Age Discrimination in Employment Act.

I am not an employment lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

When I was a young attorney, it was quite noticeable to me how often senior men of means succeeded with such claims. And how they didn’t hesitate to bring them, compared to other groups of lesser means on an individual basis in many cases. I also saw men in the workplace sue and win harassment cases involving large settlements when they were approached by other men. In all cases they didn’t hesitate!! I found that interesting.

Not saying OP has a good case, but perhaps a lawyer could negotiate an exit package in exchange for waiver of claims under the ADEA. In any event, it’s certainly worth speaking to a specialist in this area. Contact your local bar association for some referrals or the National Employment Lawyer’s Association. Free consultations never hurt.

It’s hard to enjoy your life if you’ve been wronged.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rogue_economist
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by rogue_economist »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:06 pm
rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:59 pm

A good lawyer isn't taking this on contingency if they take it at all.
At will employment stacks the deck in favor of the employer. They can fire OP for any reason not explicitly protected by law and there is no recourse. Why would the company bother to settle when there is no case against them?
*not explicitly protected by law*

Cough - ADEA - Age Discrimination in Employment Act.

I am not an employment lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

When I was a young attorney, it was quite noticeable to me how often senior men of means succeeded with such claims. And how they didn’t hesitate to bring them, compared to other groups of lesser means on an individual basis in many cases.

Not saying OP has a good case, but perhaps a lawyer could negotiate an exit package in exchange for waiver of claims under the ADEA. In any event, it’s certainly worth speaking to a specialist in this area. Contact your local bar association for some referrals or the National Employment Lawyer’s Association. Free consultations never hurt.

It’s hard to enjoy your life if you’ve been wronged.
OP has no evidence that age is the reason. People are fired all the time without any consequences. Firms know what not to say to avoid trouble.
I've seen people try to fight this, they end up spending a fortune on lawyers and get nothing. Companies have far more money than you do to spend on their legal defense.
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makingmistakes
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by makingmistakes »

walkabout wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:11 pm I looked back at your old posts and can see that you’ve been on quite a journey over the past few years. For the purposes of your initial query, you might consider adding a bit more detail about your land. Stating that you have $1 million vacant land worth $400,000 seems to undersell what you have going on, I think. The land situation, from some old posts, actually sounds much better than how I read it in your current post.

Don’t feel obligated to share more than you are comfortable sharing on my account.
She wrote that she has vacant land worth $1million and that her house is worth $400,000.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:14 pm
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:06 pm

*not explicitly protected by law*

Cough - ADEA - Age Discrimination in Employment Act.

I am not an employment lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

When I was a young attorney, it was quite noticeable to me how often senior men of means succeeded with such claims. And how they didn’t hesitate to bring them, compared to other groups of lesser means on an individual basis in many cases.

Not saying OP has a good case, but perhaps a lawyer could negotiate an exit package in exchange for waiver of claims under the ADEA. In any event, it’s certainly worth speaking to a specialist in this area. Contact your local bar association for some referrals or the National Employment Lawyer’s Association. Free consultations never hurt.

It’s hard to enjoy your life if you’ve been wronged.
OP has no evidence that age is the reason. People are fired all the time without any consequences. Firms know what not to say to avoid trouble.
I've seen people try to fight this, they end up spending a fortune on lawyers and get nothing. Companies have far more money than you do to spend on their legal defense.
Typically companies ask departing employees to sign a waiver of claims. It is often worth it to employers to compensate someone in exchange for waiving their rights to sue under the ADEA. Takes away that potential cost.

If OP is a female and or other protected class member there could be additional claims.

When you hire counsel, that doesn’t obligate you to sue. You can hire counsel to negotiate your departure package. Happens all the time.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Dufus »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:19 pm
rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:14 pm

OP has no evidence that age is the reason. People are fired all the time without any consequences. Firms know what not to say to avoid trouble.
I've seen people try to fight this, they end up spending a fortune on lawyers and get nothing. Companies have far more money than you do to spend on their legal defense.


When you hire counsel, that doesn’t obligate you to sue. You can hire counsel to negotiate your departure package. Happens all the time.
And if you aren't getting a package, no reason to stick around 2 weeks.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

The sad thing is, departing under such circumstances without even making a minimal effort to protect your interests can lead to a situation where you spend your empty hours in retirement stewing over this kind of thing. It’s better in my opinion to take action rather than wind up feeling like you acquiesced in being made powerless. Why should she resign? Maybe the jerk should resign? Her boss says the manager’s complaints are ridiculous. And if she hangs in there maybe her fortunes will improve over time. Jerks often lead to their own misfortunes. I think a long career deserves a lighthearted retirement. Not one where you have to think a jerk determined your lack of income, and mood in retirement. Maybe he isn’t aware of all the laws protecting her and needs to be trained in them.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by walkabout »

makingmistakes wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:17 pm
walkabout wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:11 pm I looked back at your old posts and can see that you’ve been on quite a journey over the past few years. For the purposes of your initial query, you might consider adding a bit more detail about your land. Stating that you have $1 million vacant land worth $400,000 seems to undersell what you have going on, I think. The land situation, from some old posts, actually sounds much better than how I read it in your current post.

Don’t feel obligated to share more than you are comfortable sharing on my account.
She wrote that she has vacant land worth $1million and that her house is worth $400,000.
I did miss that the $400,000 applies to the value of the home.

The vacant land actually generates some sort of income, which could influence the work/resign decision.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by tibbitts »

beachmom wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:34 pm I wanted to work another 8 to 15 months and then retire.
Sorry you have this situation. I may have missed this in your story but is there a specific benefit to working at this employer a specific additional length of time? While at some time before all this you might have thought "8 to 15 months", now that this has happened it would be more common to say you want to work another 148 days or something because of some specific vesting or other consideration. It would be something entirely different to me to contemplate 8 vs. 15 months. And exactly how much of that time would you have to actually work to reach whatever your objective is?
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beachmom
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by beachmom »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:26 pm The sad thing is, departing under such circumstances without even making a minimal effort to protect your interests can lead to a situation where you spend your empty hours in retirement stewing over this kind of thing. It’s better in my opinion to take action rather than wind up feeling like you acquiesced in being made powerless. Why should she resign?
Thanks everyone for your comments. I have been fighting this since right after Christmas. And yes, I wanted to retire feeling proud of the job I've done. It will be a lot to accept and forgive. Ultimately only the owner of the company could tell this lab manager no, and he is not going to do this. Lab manager gets a lot done, and the owner is not going to take my side. He is generally hostile to QA, and that won't change. In another year, the owner of the company might sell (he's 80), the jerk lab manager (other managers have nicknamed him "glory boy") might leave himself or his own issues may catch up to him. But all of those things will be too late for me. I feel like the quickest path to peace might be to walk away where I don't watch this every day.
Our HR department is small (2 people), and they basically do what the owner wants. I can try to negotiate severance, but owner expanded beyond his capacity, and he is bleeding money trying to get the company to a state he can sell. I have skated to the edge of what I can sign off on ethically for good quality in regulatory compliance. I don't want to feel pushed over that line. If reassigned, I would continue to report in the same structure, and receive the same pay, but the job would be less interesting, and It would be hard to avoid jerk lab manager in any position. I will ask my boss to put email a summary of our meetings. To train a replacement would involve a lot of interaction with the jerk manager. There is so much on my plate right now; it would take over a day to just describe the open pieces. I would love to resign by EOB tomorrow, or end of the week. I have a vacation on Feb. 12, already scheduled.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by chassis »

beachmom wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:34 pm Thanks in advance for letting me get this out. I have no one to advise me.

I am a Quality Assurance Manager with 4 direct reports in contract Pharma. The lab manager whose area I am responsible for has decided he no longer wants to work with me. QA is supposed to operate independently from lab management. My boss tells me his complaints are ridiculous and hypocritical. I think there are times I could have had better communication, but basically he is young, under stress, and doesn't like being told no. She tried to back me up and just offer steps for improvement. However the owner of the company does not want to support QA or deal with this and has sided with lab management. I can accept a reassignment to another group or resign. He expects me to train my replacement.

The reassignment is basically a demotion. I would report to someone I used to be on an equal basis with, and I would still have to interact with this manager that has forced my reassignment. And I would have to watch someone else do my former job that I put years into.

I am 59.5 years old. I have 2.1 million in investable assets and about 1 million in vacant land plus own my home, work about $400,000. I have no debt, no mortgage. My annual expenses are about $50,000-$60,000. Just over 1 million are in taxable accounts. I wanted to work another 8 to 15 months and then retire. At 60 I qualify for 71% of my deceased husbands social security, and I could still file for my own at 70. I could also file for my own at 62.5 early and then draw my husbands full amount at 65 or 67 (not sure?). I wanted to get close to another year under my own record of higher earnings. I have 35 years, but many are part time lower paid work. I also want my 25 year old daughter to turn 26 since she is currently on my health insurance. But I could just give her money to go on her employers for 8 months.

Reassigning at my age means retiring because I likely won't get another position. But I could try.
Do I hand in my resignation and figure out the next part of my life? Or eat a lot of humble pie and tough out another 8 months?
You are financially set. Do whatever you want. You can get another job "at your age" if you want to.
valleyrock
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by valleyrock »

No-one has honed in on the fact that you have been doing QA in Pharma and have had to say "no" to the lab manager on occasion.
Are there health implications here?

I'd consider what were the circumstances when you've had to say "no" and if anything might have health or legal implications there, write these things up (who did what, who said what, and when, and why was it of concern.) and at least put them in a file.

Then you could discuss concerns with the boss about what might be behind the lab manager's not wanting to work with you...maybe they cut corners, or something. Now you're letting them know that there have been certain shenanigans going on that you know about, and maybe they'll back off and leave you to do your job. It depends on how you want to approach it. I'd be diplomatic and say, hey, we could all get in trouble here if something goes wrong, right?

Of course, as others have said, maybe you don't need any grief and can just go quietly.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Beensabu »

beachmom wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:53 pm I would love to resign by EOB tomorrow, or end of the week. I have a vacation on Feb. 12, already scheduled.
Go for it. :D

Enjoy your vacation prep week!
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by HooCares »

rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:14 pm
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 6:06 pm

*not explicitly protected by law*

Cough - ADEA - Age Discrimination in Employment Act.

I am not an employment lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

When I was a young attorney, it was quite noticeable to me how often senior men of means succeeded with such claims. And how they didn’t hesitate to bring them, compared to other groups of lesser means on an individual basis in many cases.

Not saying OP has a good case, but perhaps a lawyer could negotiate an exit package in exchange for waiver of claims under the ADEA. In any event, it’s certainly worth speaking to a specialist in this area. Contact your local bar association for some referrals or the National Employment Lawyer’s Association. Free consultations never hurt.

It’s hard to enjoy your life if you’ve been wronged.
OP has no evidence that age is the reason. People are fired all the time without any consequences. Firms know what not to say to avoid trouble.
I've seen people try to fight this, they end up spending a fortune on lawyers and get nothing. Companies have far more money than you do to spend on their legal defense.
You don’t know that. Companies don’t typically write you a letter saying “at age 59 we believe you are too high on the pay scale, therefore we have decided to demote you and replace you with a younger person we can pay less.”

The OP, if she wants, should speak to an employment attorney to navigate the situation. It could be age discrimination, even unintentionally, leading to a negotiated settlement/separation. Or it could be the OP flushing a consult fee down the toilet. These types of cases are taken on a contingency so attorneys only take them if they feel they have a very good chance of succeeding. She won’t know that until she speaks to an attorney.

Alternatively she could just suck it up and work the new role for 8 months and be on her merry way.
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watchnerd
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by watchnerd »

angelescrest wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:46 pm
KESP wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:53 pm I don’t think this has been mentioned, but the lab manager doesn’t like to work with you, but you’re saying you still have to interact with them even given the reassigned position? If I was in your situation, I would definitely resign with like two weeks notice. If they panic because you know all the stuff there is to know, make them pay. They can’t have it both ways. Picking the other person over you essentially and then expecting you to do what they want. The heck with that.
Right, the OP thinks they have a lot of leverage here because of their experience and knowledge. It doesn’t sound like that has been taken advantage of yet, so it’s a good moment to negotiate. I wouldn’t resign without at least having a bit of a staring contest first.
When I retired, that's what I did.

There was some HR shenanigans about headcount and training new team members blah blah.

I wasn't going to play that game.

In response, I told them I was retiring. 2 weeks notice.

2 months later they came back desperate to hire me as contractor at twice the rate.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Nestegg_User »

beachmom wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:10 pm
beernutz wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 1:54 pm If you are reassigned to a new position and also have to train your replacement would you do both jobs simultaneously?

Yes, essentially. Because I would still be there, I would get asked if questions came up and have to answer them. And questions would arise, because no one knows close to what I know about this area. Unfortunately the area touches on all other labs.
So my ability to avoid the lab manager with the issue would be limited.



I appreciate your thoughts. I am not sure I could manage to work under this situation. There are about 250 employees so it would be a pretty open and widely discussed unexpected transfer.
**** WRONG ANSWER !! ****

Once you are out of that role your response is "You will have to ask (Dr./Mr./Ms.) XX that question".
If they ask again...REPEAT !

Similarly, as you wouldn't have the sign-off authority, don't accept shipments (especially DEA scheduled) or sign off any disbursements !!
You are not covered by D&O and are not covered for "tail risks". I would get copies of any audits and, if any deficiencies are noted, proof that corrective actions were implemented.

[Side Note: I knew of one midwest pharma company, also where the owner wanted to challenge/override QA. They had issues, FDA came in and shut them down for IIR one and a half to two years! (and, of course since they already had a prior action, they were subjected to "enhanced oversight".]

ETA: In your update you mentioned that you "skated to the edge of compliance".... just what I mentioned in the side note and why you need to keep documentation that all audits were satisfactory or that any issues were addressed "while on your watch", otherwise you could get dragged in to any legal issues of the company in the future and be made the scapegoat because of your QA position. That the owner is wanting to sell unfortunately makes it more likely that the ice will get thinner that you would be skating on, and again reiterates why I recommend leaving, but with full documentation that all procedures and audits were satisfactory while you had the authority.

RE: financial
You've already identified that you could recieve survivor SS benefits in roughly six months. I can't see any reason for you not to initiate then, and wait until 70 (or at least FRA) to start your own SS benefits. As noted by others, the extra time, since you have significant quarters already, will not materially affect YOUR SS, especially if waiting until 70.
Further, by taking survivor benefits you allow for reduced reliance on your nestegg, to the small extent you'd need it given the numbers you gave.

MY CHOICE:
Given what you described, your employer is the equivalent to junk bond... very high risk. You task is to extricate yourself from the situation with the best outcome-- in this case, negotiated severance with the help of an experienced labor attorney.
That you would not be relieved of the stressors, due to future required interaction with the other manager and with others in the 250 person office, further indicates that an exit with severance might be preferred.

[Another side note: I had a couple of cases where I had told the director that I --- could not -- train certain individuals, mostly due to their prior cases where they indicated they were trained one way, totally contrary to what was performed, and thus failed QC and ISO causing significant rework by others and retraining of individuals.

You didn't indicate that the individual even shadowed you at any point; HENCE MY FIRST STATEMENT. You want the individual to have to deal with ALL aspects of the job when they get that authority. In some respects, you need to have them understand what they DON'T know... if you did stay and train (which I again DON'T recommend) those issues are part and parcel of the regular task at hand, DON'T let them delegate them to you "to make it easier on the transition"
Owner/management set up the conditions and need to deal with the situation THEY set up. ]

<off my soapbox now>
Last edited by Nestegg_User on Tue Feb 04, 2025 6:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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watchnerd
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by watchnerd »

Beensabu wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 8:05 pm
beachmom wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:53 pm I would love to resign by EOB tomorrow, or end of the week. I have a vacation on Feb. 12, already scheduled.
Go for it. :D

Enjoy your vacation prep week!
Totally.

One of the benefits of financial independence, AKA FU money, is exercising the FU option.

At age 54 I'm already well past putting up with BS. At age 59, I can't even imagine.

Enjoy freedom!
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Scotttheking »

beachmom wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:10 pm
beernutz wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 1:54 pm If you are reassigned to a new position and also have to train your replacement would you do both jobs simultaneously?
Yes, essentially. Because I would still be there, I would get asked if questions came up and have to answer them. And questions would arise, because no one knows close to what I know about this area. Unfortunately the area touches on all other labs.
So my ability to avoid the lab manager with the issue would be limited.


I appreciate your thoughts. I am not sure I could manage to work under this situation. There are about 250 employees so it would be a pretty open and widely discussed unexpected transfer.
Offer to leave in exchange for 6 (or 8) months health benefits, some months salary, whatever you want. In exchange, you’ll train replacement under XYZ conditions.
Or if you’d rather, quit and call it done. Whatever gives you least stress that you won’t regret.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Amien »

I’d take demotion, act like team player, but take a relaxed approach to work hereon, and dare them to release you from employment with a nice severance package. Can’t fight this stuff, but you can spend 2025 leisurely planning your retirement on their dime.

FYI, lots of folks in their early 60s find themselves pushed-out or demoted. Happened to many friends in 2024. Some quickly found new employment, others still do paid consulting for their former employer. Seems we “seniors” are finally being recognized as cost-effective worker-bees even if no longer on manager escalator promotion wise.

Best wishes to you. Been there, done that.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Globalviewer58 »

If you had an interest in continuing to work you should review job postings for fully remote Pharma QA opportunities. A wide range of options to consider. This path avoids the disruption of relocation or long commute.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by HornedToad »

I’m not sure why you are working given your stats

View it as kick starting your retirement

Negotiate 6 mo severance to train your replacement and not bring a lawsuit and call it good.

Don’t go thru aggravation when you don’t need the money
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by j9j »

I would not resign and make it easy on the employer. You are in great financial position to have no worries.

Sounds like the reassignment is a no go, so would refuse that and continue your current job. Put burden on them. Hopefully it will be an eight month severance package. Good luck.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Dottie57 »

MathWizard wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:13 pm You have enough funds. What is another 8 months going to get you, besides aggravation?

Make sure that you have health care set up, and that you have cleaned out your office and separated out company and personal items.

You are in pharma. The president of the company is taking
sides against QA. Poor QA can mean patient deaths and lawsuits.
I'd just get out . Don't train your replacement, just resign and enjoy life.

I gave the company 5 months notice due to being at the
director level, and it was full of frustration. Life is much more stress free now.

I was a workaholic, with my identity tied up in my position at work. It took 18 months to get past that.
This is a great take.
Life is more than grinding it out in some drab office setting for an arbitrary number. This isn't a videogame where the higher score is better. -Nathan Drake
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Watty
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Watty »

You can go to the Social Security website to get estimates of your Social Security benefit with and without working the additional 8 months. Unless you worked for a lot of your career at near minimum wage jobs it will likely not make very much difference.

When I retired I had exactly the 35 years of post college work which are used to calculate your Social Security benefit as well as some very low income years when I had part time or summers jobs at basically minimum wage while I was in high school and college. When I was getting ready to retire I figured out that my last year of work increased my monthly Social Security benefit by all of $14 dollars a month.

The way that your Social Security benefit is calculated is complicated but there what they call "bend points" in the calculations where when your wage history gets above a bend point and higher wage history counts a lot less. I will not try to explain the bend points since you can google and read the details if you want but currently a factor in the calculation is 90%, 32%, and only 15% when you are above the second bend point.

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/piaformula.html

I am a retired software developer and among other things I have worked on hospital information system and food distribution where massive amounts of food needed to be property tracked correctly and recalled if necessary. While different then pharmaceuticals problems these computer systems could have caused injury or death to people if there were errors so I can empathize with you wanting to do pharmaceutical QA right.

A huge problem with taking the reassignment and training your replacement is that if there is a problem then the company will still likely to try to use you as a scapegoat and even claim that you were a problem employee and they demoted you. If you take the reassignment you will likely be in a no win situation since you will still be held responsible for the QA work but you will not have any authority to do anything about it.

As others have said you may want to talk to an employment lawyer to try to get a better severance package but other than that it does not sound like you have any future there. My impression is that you can afford to retire and I would likely do that with two weeks notice if I was in your situation.

One thing that you should likely not do though is to quit that job then come back as a contractor. The big risk with that is if you do if there is a problem and someone is hurt then you will likely be sued even if you had a very minor role in the situation and as a contractor you will have to pay huge legal bills in addition to possibly having a large judgement in a lawsuit. When you are working as an employee the company will pay to for lawyers to defend a lawsuit and it is very difficult for and employee to be held personally liable for a problem. If you did want to contract back with them you would likely want to work with a lawyer to set up a LLC and buy liability insurance.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by billfromct »

There were several mentions of SS benefits, but it would be a good idea to run your SS numbers through opensocialsecurity.com to see the optimal SS claiming options between applying for your own SS benefits or survivor SS benefits based on your husband’s work history.

I believe that the highest survivor benefits would be at your full retirement age, which is between age 66-67 years old. My understanding is that there is no additional SS survivor benefit advantage to taking survivor benefits after your full retirement age. You don’t want to take any SS benefits (your own or survivor benefits) while working if under your full retirement age because of the “claw back” of SS benefits if making over $23.4k for 2025.

I took SS survivor benefits at my full retirement age while still working, then my own larger SS benefits at age 70.

bill
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by JBTX »

I would not suffer through another 8-15 months of this when by all accounts you have no need to. Social security will cover a decent chunk of your existing expenses then you have 3.5 million in assets on top of that.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Dufus »

If you think you'd like to keep working, take a look at https://www.indeed.com/ and get an idea of what jobs are out there. There may be nothing you are interested in or you might find something that would be a welcome change.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by LongRoad »

JBTX wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 12:27 am I would not suffer through another 8-15 months of this when by all accounts you have no need to. Social security will cover a decent chunk of your existing expenses then you have 3.5 million in assets on top of that.
+1
It's clear from this thread that continuing in this job for the next 3-6-8-15 months will be miserable for you. There's no need for that. The company has made its decision, and you're more than entitled to make yours as well. You've worked a lifetime to give yourself choices in a situation like this.

Only you know all the circumstances. But if it were me, I wouldn't quiet quit, resign, or slink away. I'd wake up with a smile on my face, go to work, and turn in a letter announcing my retirement, effective Friday. Take your vacation on the 12th, without fretting about the job awaiting you when you return. Look ahead, not back.

Whatever you decide, best of luck to you!
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ResearchMed
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by ResearchMed »

Make sure that you unobtrusively remove ALL personal property or anything non-propietary that you would be allowed to take. (I'm not sure what would be in the second category that isn't in the first, but I put that in "just in case".)

Some companies, upon knowing an employee has been fired or has announced they are leaving, will send security (or similar) to stand watch as you clear out your own things. There's not much time to consider what is where, etc.
You don't want to leave anything behind.

I would suggest this even for what is expected to be a friendly departure, but that's not your situation anyway.

Now try to smile and think of all of those months of aggravation that are about to disappear.
"Poof!"
:happy

Note: I haven't changed my opinion from my above comments. However, I still don't remember seeing any reason why you actually do need to stay, other than a few months' income (but your finances aren't that tight!) or making those final few dollars or work days/weeks to qualify for that nice pension or similar.

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2pedals
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by 2pedals »

It seems like an easy decision, resign. Life is too short to fret over this. In retirement and old age, it's amazing how blazingly fast time goes by.
VgSince1982-2
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by VgSince1982-2 »

I was recently in a similar situation at a similar age, although my role wasn't as key as yours. Our big-tech team was shaken up and re-org'd several times and I was a bad fit where I landed. Maybe this 'bad fit' is similar to where you'd land in a reassignment. My DH was already retired, so it was also a sole income situation. Some thoughts -

--An advantage to the reassignment is that you get to plan your departure, emotionally, financially and tax-wise. While I wished to go 1-2 more years, I just couldn't. I gave 4.5 month's notice to my manager about my plan to "retire" (aka quit at 60). I had to go through one more performance review cycle, which was stress-free because of my plans.

--Plan your departure to be most advantageous to you: I timed my departure to get a final batch of RSUs. I maxed my 401k withholding % so I'd fully receive the 401k match for the year. This meant a March departure. I had earned income so I could self-fund Roth IRAs that year, yet little enough income to do a small Roth conversion in the same tax year.

--Consider/plan the next 5 years all at once (pre-medicare) from a tax and investment perspective. If next year (or the next) you have very little income of any type including SS, you could sell appreciated assets (perhaps the land?) with 0% long-term capital gain tax for a chunk of the gain. I'm taking advantage of the 0% LTCG bracket this year. I highly recommend this resource: https://engaging-data.com/tax-brackets/

--Consider healthcare and COBRA. If you are HSA eligible now and leave, you can self-fund the remaining HSA $s if you continue with COBRA. Note if you depart around July 1, you could have 18 months of COBRA coverage until Jan 2027. This means 2026 healthcare is your choice of COBRA or ACA, and options can be empowering.

As a final note, I sympathize with having negative feelings at the end of a long and accomplished career. It is unfortunate, but sadly, it is how careers often come to an end these days. And bad managers and poor decisions don't often get called out. From time to time, remind yourself of the contributions you made and give yourself a pat on the back.

L.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by AllMostThere »

climber2020 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:56 pm Is the pay the same?

If it were me and I had a net worth of 3.5 million with 60k expenses and only 8 months to go, I'd take the reassignment, do very little actual work, and dare them to fire me. Over many years of observing human nature I've realized that it takes a certain personality type to be able to do what I described, so this may not work for you. It goes without saying, but you should make absolutely sure you're ready to retire if you take this approach.
^^^^^^ This exactly!! Be the employee that quits, and the employer doesn't know. Just take the reassignment, don't tell them you plan to retire and let it ride while working on your post-retirement planning and lifestyle redesign. When dung hits the fan just smile and tell them it's not in your scope of work and let someone else deal with it. Perhaps a layoff with unemployment insurance payments or better yet a severance is in order for your last few months. Time to stop playing the politics game and enjoy the fruits of your labor. They call it FU money for a reason. :beer
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Valuethinker »

beachmom wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 12:34 pm Thanks in advance for letting me get this out. I have no one to advise me.

I am a Quality Assurance Manager with 4 direct reports in contract Pharma. The lab manager whose area I am responsible for has decided he no longer wants to work with me. QA is supposed to operate independently from lab management. My boss tells me his complaints are ridiculous and hypocritical. I think there are times I could have had better communication, but basically he is young, under stress, and doesn't like being told no. She tried to back me up and just offer steps for improvement. However the owner of the company does not want to support QA or deal with this and has sided with lab management. I can accept a reassignment to another group or resign. He expects me to train my replacement.

The reassignment is basically a demotion. I would report to someone I used to be on an equal basis with, and I would still have to interact with this manager that has forced my reassignment. And I would have to watch someone else do my former job that I put years into.

I am 59.5 years old. I have 2.1 million in investable assets and about 1 million in vacant land plus own my home, work about $400,000. I have no debt, no mortgage. My annual expenses are about $50,000-$60,000. Just over 1 million are in taxable accounts. I wanted to work another 8 to 15 months and then retire. At 60 I qualify for 71% of my deceased husbands social security, and I could still file for my own at 70. I could also file for my own at 62.5 early and then draw my husbands full amount at 65 or 67 (not sure?). I wanted to get close to another year under my own record of higher earnings. I have 35 years, but many are part time lower paid work. I also want my 25 year old daughter to turn 26 since she is currently on my health insurance. But I could just give her money to go on her employers for 8 months.

Reassigning at my age means retiring because I likely won't get another position. But I could try.
Do I hand in my resignation and figure out the next part of my life? Or eat a lot of humble pie and tough out another 8 months?
There does not appear to be a meaningful delta for staying another 8 months? And meaningful financial impact?

As per others here:

- carefully assess your financial position & how you will live, insurance etc without work

- [maybe] approach your company with a willingness to take redundancy - unless there are reasons to not do that - and expect either to be offered a buyout package, or just to be let go on the spot (be ready for that, being walked out of the building by security, it is a jarring experience)?

Otherwise take the 8 month period. You can eat "humble pie" for 8 months if there is a goal you are working towards. Quite possibly they will let you go within that period anyways?

- consider your options for contract or other work using your skills for another organisation - there are books about searching for work as an older employee - don't rule it out without looking

You should be fine financially even if you never work again. But just make sure you have a good handle on it. The vacant land slightly worries me because valuing such a thing is so imprecise - so is it really an asset you can count on?

Don't be surprised if you enter a period where the emotions are like grief. Employment relations are like spouses or partners, and one inevitably invests in them. But no employer will ever love you back. So going will be a feeling of grief & loss -- but also a feeling of freedom and of an intolerable burden jettisoned.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by TSR »

I am a criminal-defense lawyer, not an employment lawyer, and I don't have enough facts to give legal advice. Knowing nothing about the facts of this case beyond what you say here, I'd say you need to be out of that company and document the reasons. You are in compliance/QA in a company that makes products that can kill people. That means that you could potentially be held personally criminally liable for screw-ups, and it means that the owner would likely point the finger at you rather than walk away in handcuffs himself. If that company is not taking compliance seriously, I would not want my name anywhere near it. I would be tempted to submit a letter to the company making my reasons for leaving clear, and I might even consult with a lawyer about whistleblower protections. But I would leave noisily and leave a clear paper trail (keeping copies of all documents for yourself).

To be clear, I don't think the criminal liability I am describing above is a high-probability risk (especially in the current administration -- compliance officers were a target of previous administrations), but it would certainly be a high-consequence risk. Is another 8-15 months' salary when you're already financially set really worth that? In any event, you can certainly leave with a feeling of righteousness about a company that is walking a very risky line and trying to edge out the people who care about staying on the right side of that line.

Best of luck. I'm sorry that you're dealing with this.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by tfalk »

So if I read this correctly, they want to demote you and make you clean up the mess they created by forcing you to do 2 jobs including training your replacement and still dealing with the person who created the problem?

WALK AWAY NOW. Why spend how many months or years cleaning up THEIR problem that THEY created. If you can financially make ends meet, you really only need to find a way to get to early SS.

I got laid off at 57 and every company I looked at wanted to bring me in at an entry level, half my previous salary, long hours, etc. We scaled back on a lot of things and made it work, used an inherited IRA from my parents to pay for medical coverage until 62, then early SS covered our medical until we both turn 65 this year. Never looked back...
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Gubshu »

This comment is really important, in my opinion: “I have skated to the edge of what I can sign off on ethically for good quality in regulatory compliance. I don't want to feel pushed over that line.” I used to work in a compliance position, although not in a similar business. I would never have been put in a position to sign my name to something if I felt that I should not. I would absolutely walk away from this company, if I was in your shoes.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by humblecoder »

DISCLAIMER: This is a long thread and I only skimmed it. Therefore, apologies in advance if this is repetitious.

You can call me paranoid, but I wanted to bring up something to consider.

I would imagine that QA in Pharma is a very important role. If there are quality gaps, people's health could be at risk. It is a shame that the current owner doesn't appreciate this. It could put the company and those working for it at risk for potential liability.

Personally, I would have an ethical problem with working in such an environment. Therefore, I would have no issues with resigning on those grounds. It sounds like you are financially independent and would be just fine not working another day in your life, so that would make the choice a lot easier for me.

Second, I would do whatever I need to do in order to protect myself for when the you-know-what hits the fan. Print out emails. Document verbal discussions in writing and email these meeting notes to the person with whom you talked (and print those out as well). Print out any other supporting documents. The goal would be to show where you raised concerns about quality and/or QA's diminished role. That way, the finger doesn't get pointed in your direction. And certainly if you were to resign, the natural inclination is to point the finger at the person who is not there.

And if you really think lives are being put at risk, consider whether you should blow the whistle and report them to the relevant regulatory bodies (FDA?). I would talk to an attorney who is versed in "whistleblower law" first, to cross any t's and dot any I's.

Again, I might be paranoid, and I might be reading too much into the situation. So feel free to discard what I have written if it is not relevant.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by CC1E »

It seems like they’re doing you wrong. If it were me I’d do my best to stick it to them. So just don’t do anything. If they ask, just keep telling them you’re still considering your options. Definitely don’t sign anything.

If they transfer/demote you, slack off until they fire you. Do a bad job training your replacement and give incorrect answers or say “I don’t know” if they ask questions. Have fun with it!

Definitely don’t quit. Make them fire you and then collect severance and/or unemployment.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by quantAndHold »

rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:59 pm
HooCares wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:52 pm

These types of cases are taken on contingency. He has a lot of money, it may be worth spending a few $100 getting an opinion. Sometimes you can get a go away settlement.
A good lawyer isn't taking this on contingency if they take it at all.
At will employment stacks the deck in favor of the employer. They can fire OP for any reason not explicitly protected by law and there is no recourse. Why would the company bother to settle when there is no case against them?
Age *is* a federally protected class. State law doesn’t negate that.

I would suggest, given that this is pharma, that there might be an opportunity here to be a whistleblower. Which is also protected. I would consult with an attorney before I did that, however.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by 8foot7 »

“I won’t accept a reassignment and I won’t train my replacement. I’ll continue doing my job as I have been for X years until you notify me to stop.”

Make them fire you.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Ollie123 »

This is not a field where you want to burn your QA folks. You have FU money and are getting screwed. Say FU and screw them harder. Depending on exactly how far you feel you have been pushed to the edges of compliance, not only would I quit I would also consider blowing the whistle to "encourage" an outside investigation once I was out the door if you think things have crossed a line. Whether you are feeling that vindictive is your call to make. I'd do what you "need" on the financial front first. Foremost being getting some plan in place for your daughter's insurance, but there are plenty of options. I normally don't advocate for burning bridges and obviously if you have friends at this company you may not want to take that, but if I've got a foot out the door, have been pushed to cross ethical lines and then get a demotion....light the match.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by rogue_economist »

quantAndHold wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:18 am
rogue_economist wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 5:59 pm

A good lawyer isn't taking this on contingency if they take it at all.
At will employment stacks the deck in favor of the employer. They can fire OP for any reason not explicitly protected by law and there is no recourse. Why would the company bother to settle when there is no case against them?
Age *is* a federally protected class. State law doesn’t negate that.

I would suggest, given that this is pharma, that there might be an opportunity here to be a whistleblower. Which is also protected. I would consult with an attorney before I did that, however.
Doesn't matter, because the employer isn't going to give age as the reason. They can say you drive the wrong kind of car and fire you for that.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by humblecoder »

Wanted to add one last thought.

A lot of people are saying "stay at your job, don't do anything, make them fire you".

I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THIS ADVICE. If it were me, I would NOT do this.

Again, you are working in Pharma, a highly regulated area where lives are literally at stake, for a company that seems to be playing fast and loose with compliance.

If the company fires you and the you-know-what hits the fan, the spotlight of blame could shine very brightly on you, whether you were at fault or not. You would make for a very easy scapegoat.... person was in conflict with the lab manager, didn't do their job, was fired for cause. The narrative would literally write itself!

Now, you and I know that this isn't what really happened. However, given that you were fired for cause (and to be blunt, rightly so... if I had an employee just drawing a paycheck and not doing anything, I'd fire them too), this could impact your own credibility in any subsequent investigations.

Again, maybe I am paranoid, but even if you think it within the realm of possibility, it isn't worth the additional few months salary or whatever that you really don't need. Either you stay and do your job, not giving them any additional cause to scapegoat you, or you should quit.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by JayDee37 »

So an older, experienced, competent woman who perhaps has an assertive interpersonal style rubs a younger "glory-hog" male colleague the wrong way? Color me astonished.

Here's another vote for a) consulting an employment lawyer (both age and gender are protected classes--when I described the situation to my fiance who is a lawyer and has worked in compliance/QA in medical settings his eyebrows shot up and he said "she should get a lawyer") and b) using the fact that you have "screw you" money to actually say "screw you" and exit an extremely stressful situation.

It doesn't sound like working for another 8-15 months in this situation is financially necessary to ensure your hoped-for standard of living in retirement, and the job conditions will drive you nuts. Why put yourself in that situation?

Re: your daughter's health insurance--if she has access to employer-sponsored insurance through her own job she'll be fine. One more way she'll be a real adult. You shouldn't sacrifice your own mental and emotional health on that score.

Good luck!
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by ResearchMed »

rogue_economist wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:39 am Doesn't matter, because the employer isn't going to give age as the reason. They can say you drive the wrong kind of car and fire you for that.

Employer doesn't need to explicitly state that "We terminated A because of their age" (or "because of <race>", etc.).
And especially these days (vs in the past), they aren't likely to "say it out loud".

It's the actual age, the firing, and assorted other factors, usually including how other similarly situated employees are, or have been/etc., treated.
Any actual statements about "age", "older", "long time", etc., can obviously be included.

It's been a long time, but I did research to document just this type of thing, "discrimination" for the Dept of Labor, and it happened to be age. But the same procedures would likely be done for any similar claim for any protected class.

And even back then, NO ONE had ever said anything about terminating the employee due to age.

RM
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by rogue_economist »

ResearchMed wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:01 pm
rogue_economist wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:39 am Doesn't matter, because the employer isn't going to give age as the reason. They can say you drive the wrong kind of car and fire you for that.

Employer doesn't need to explicitly state that "We terminated A because of their age" (or "because of <race>", etc.).
And especially these days (vs in the past), they aren't likely to "say it out loud".

It's the actual age, the firing, and assorted other factors, usually including how other similarly situated employees are, or have been/etc., treated.
Any actual statements about "age", "older", "long time", etc., can obviously be included.

It's been a long time, but I did research to document just this type of thing, "discrimination" for the Dept of Labor, and it happened to be age. But the same procedures would likely be done for any similar claim for any protected class.

And even back then, NO ONE had ever said anything about terminating the employee due to age.

RM
And the company, with far better lawyers and deeper pockets, is going to say prove it. Which OP has zero evidence for.

Of course lawyers are going to say get a lawyer, for the same reason mechanics always find things to fix and hvac guys tell you that you need a new system. They get paid even if you loose the case.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by White Coat Investor »

How great that you have done so well saving that you have the option to retire if you choose or are forced to. Nice work.

Sorry about the tough decision. No useful advice on that.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by Coffeeinthemorning »

Ugh so sorry this is happening, I have seen it elsewhere and its not fair. How important is your position and specific your tasks / knowledge? If the training you will be doing is important you may want to approach management and say this is obviously not working out anymore, perhaps we can come to a mutually agreeable arrangement where I stay for a couple of months to train the new person and then leave in exchange for some severance. This is likely to only work if you have the leverage of doing work no one else can really do.

You can stay but it will be a taxing situation and I'm not sure the extra few months really makes a difference financially, unless there is some specific date like vesting in a plan that you are aiming for. You can stick around and make them fire you but that is tough although then you could get unemployment although also check your state employment office on rules for firing with cause.

You say at your age this will be retirement, but that is not necessarily so, for such a position perhaps but there are many employers happy to hire reliable older workers, you might find a different job, lower stress, probably less money but with benefits - which is worth a lot these days as that can be expense individually. It never hurts to look around so update your resume at least and look around at what is out there. Just deciding you will leave is a mental boost and makes it easier to get through the BS.
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Re: Urgent-Help with Serious Work Issue- Resign or accept reassignment

Post by quantAndHold »

rogue_economist wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:39 am
quantAndHold wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:18 am

Age *is* a federally protected class. State law doesn’t negate that.

I would suggest, given that this is pharma, that there might be an opportunity here to be a whistleblower. Which is also protected. I would consult with an attorney before I did that, however.
Doesn't matter, because the employer isn't going to give age as the reason. They can say you drive the wrong kind of car and fire you for that.
It does absolutely matter. At will doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. There are hoops that the company has to jump through to prove that age *wasn’t* the reason, and the reason for firing has to pass the smell test. Taking a 60 year old who’s been getting good performance reviews for their entire career, then letting them go for a single incident of incompetence or insubordination or whatever…isn’t going to pass the smell test.

Source…middle manager who did hiring and firing for multiple megacorps. I’ve seen this stuff play out in real life, on both sides. One of those sides is when I got a large settlement myself.
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