FBND vs BND for IRAs

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Rajsx
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FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

Have not been thrilled with BND Vanguard Total Bond Market Index ETF, a three star rating on Morningstar
I am thinking about FBND Fidelity Total Bond Market ETF, a four star rating on Morningstar,

FBND has NOT done anywhere near great, but a tad better than BND during extended time periods, in tax deferred accounts

Thoughts please ??
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by UpperNwGuy »

BND is an index fund. FBND is actively managed.

BND only holds investment-grade bonds. FBND holds some junk bonds.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by retired@50 »

Rajsx wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:24 pm
Thoughts please ??
FBND is riskier. Compare FBND to VPLS for an apples to apples comparison.

Regards,
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by sycamore »

Sticking with index/passively-managed funds, consider IUSB. iShares Core Total USD Bond Market ETF. Expense Ratio of 0.06%

It tracks an index Bloomberg U.S. Universal Index. It's like BND's index except that additional lower-rated (high yield) bonds are included. So a little bit of extra risk with an opportunity for a little extra return.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by mhc »

Rajsx wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:24 pm I am thinking about FBND Fidelity Total Bond Market ETF, a four star rating on Morningstar,
Fidelity has some really slick TV commercials promoting FBND, which makes it look like you will be awesome if you invest in it. This is enough to make me take a pass on FBND, especially since the commercial really promotes that it is an active fund.

I would ignore Morningstar ratings.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by abner kravitz »

For what its worth, FBND returns have been better than BND over the last 1/3/5/10 year periods.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

I understand FBND is not a risk free Treasury ETF, it also did not do well in 2022 due to interest rate hikes although they say it did better than 2/3rd of Bond Funds, may have been better than BND(not sure)

It is much smaller in volume than BND, I do not know if it may effect the ask/ sell ratio for an etf.
I am unable to find a year or a time period if FBND did worse than BND.
Yes, FBND does have some risky Junk Bonds.

I am just trying to get past the Ho hum of BND, otherwise the choice is more CDs, even Money Markets are doing better because of present higher interest rates.

Fixed Income is just 20% of AA, have heard active management is better for Bond Funds, otherwise I have been a long time indexer with VTI, VGT, VXUS & BND & some Money markets & CDs
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Rajsx wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 6:11 pm I am just trying to get past the Ho hum of BND, otherwise the choice is more CDs, even Money Markets are doing better because of present higher interest rates.

Fixed Income is just 20% of AA, have heard active management is better for Bond Funds, otherwise I have been a long time indexer with VTI, VGT, VXUS & BND & some Money markets & CDs
To succeed at investing, you have to hold some ho-hum funds.

Money markets and CDs are fine for short term investments. But I assume you are investing for the long-term; otherwise you wouldn't have purchased BND in the first place.

Can you tell us where you heard that active management of bond funds is better?
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by grabiner »

abner kravitz wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2025 10:14 am For what its worth, FBND returns have been better than BND over the last 1/3/5/10 year periods.
And the higher returns are to be expected, since the fund takes more risk; it holds 10% junk bonds, and only 30% government bonds versus 51% for the bond index (data from Morningstar).

If you want to take more risks with your bonds, you should get the full compensation for that risk, as you would with something like VCIT (Vanguard Intermediate-Term Corporate ETF). VCIT has no junk, but is more than half BBB.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Cocoa Beach Bum »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 6:25 pm...
Can you tell us where you heard that active management of bond funds is better?
An example from JPMorgan: Why active fixed income consistently outperforms the Agg.
Their active JCPB (JPMorgan Core Plus Bond ETF) has performed well.

Another example, from Vanguard: Vanguard active bond funds: Serving as a stabilizer. Their active VPLS (Vanguard Core-Plus Bond ETF) is only a year old but has performed well, too.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

Thanks Cocoa Beach, I was not sure where I read/heard it.
Thanks Grabiner, I have learnt a lot from your posts.

It has been years back, but I continued with BND so not to rock the boat so to speak. What with all Bogleheads old timers advocating for BND, I just went along and am going along.
This Ballast theory of BND, I do not know if it holds water any more, you get beaten up when VTI is up and also when it is down, looking back at 2022 is a fresh reminder of that.

I am not sure which way to go, I have been just avoiding to think about these Bonds, I do not understand them, have been bruised by them time & again. There are plenty of posts I read on the forum who do not invest in bonds period, they have a pure equity portfolio. At times I wish I had a similar portfolio.

I got started with Bonds- VBTLX more than 30+ yrs with Diehards, more a follower of the 3 Fund Portfolio than any thought out investment strategy & am still following the same mantra, although as our AA is growing more aggressive in retirement due to fairly aggressive roth conversions from BND in IRAs into VTI + VGT in our Roths, from 60/40 to 80/20 now.

Initially I was uncomfortable but have now gotten used to our 80/20, luckily was in time for the last 2 yrs of market gains, & so now even if the market has a downturn, it may not not effect us much as we are so far ahead now. I hope I am not getting effected by the recency bias, (probable am)

We have introduced/exchanged into CDs into our IRAs, so now whenever I see LESS of BND in our portfolio I am happy. I do not want any Bonds in our Taxable or Roths, we have a couple of year expenses in the money markets FDRXX. When the CDs in our IRAs mature, I will reinvest back in CDs.

Sorry for a drawn out post, thank you for your opinions.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by RyeBourbon »

abner kravitz wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2025 10:14 am For what its worth, FBND returns have been better than BND over the last 1/3/5/10 year periods.
That's great if you WERE invested in FBND for those time periods. But it doesn't say anything about the risk-adjusted return moving forward.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

I would think Morningstar Ratings which are followed widely amount to something with FBND a 4 star & BND 3 star,

About Morningstar Star ratings -
A 1–5 star rating that measures a fund's past performance
The highest rating of five stars is given to the top 10% of funds
Ratings are calculated at the end of each month
Ratings are based on a fund's risk-adjusted return over three, five, and ten years
Last edited by Rajsx on Mon Jan 27, 2025 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by retired@50 »

Rajsx wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:38 pm I would think Morningstar Ratings which are followed widely amount to something with FBND a 4 star & BND 3 star,
Comparing two bond funds that aren't comparable doesn't teach us much. I'm puzzled as to why you want to compare these two funds?

Comparing FBND, which Morningstar categorizes as an intermediate term "core plus" bond fund to another intermediate term core plus bond fund like VCPAX will show you that when two funds take comparable risks they have comparable returns. Incidentally, VCPAX has 4 stars too, not that it will be indicative of future performance.

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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by mhc »

Rajsx wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:38 pm I would think Morningstar Ratings which are followed widely amount to something with FBND a 4 star & BND 3 star,

About Morningstar Star ratings -
A 1–5 star rating that measures a fund's past performance
The highest rating of five stars is given to the top 10% of funds
Ratings are calculated at the end of each month
Ratings are based on a fund's risk-adjusted return over three, five, and ten years
Here is an interesting article about Morningstar ratings.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... t-morn.asp
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by HawaiiFiveO »

I'm in a similar boat, not sure which to choose.

FBND - Fidelity Total Bond ETF
FTBFX - Fidelity Total Bond Index
FXNAX - Fidelity US Bond Index

I will watch this thread with great interest.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Eric »

HawaiiFiveO wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 6:26 pm FTBFX - Fidelity Total Bond Index
FXNAX - Fidelity US Bond Index
Sorry, had to fix this: As stated up-thread, FTBFX is not an index fund. So I'd refer to it as Fidelity Total Bond, not Fidelity Total Bond Index.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

retired@50 wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 6:11 pm
Rajsx wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:38 pm I would think Morningstar Ratings which are followed widely amount to something with FBND a 4 star & BND 3 star,
Comparing two bond funds that aren't comparable doesn't teach us much. I'm puzzled as to why you want to compare these two funds?

Comparing FBND, which Morningstar categorizes as an intermediate term "core plus" bond fund to another intermediate term core plus bond fund like VCPAX will show you that when two funds take comparable risks they have comparable returns. Incidentally, VCPAX has 4 stars too, not that it will be indicative of future performance.

Regards,
Fair enough, accepted , thanks I got the point finally,
IF I move on from BND to FBND I go in knowing I am increasing the risk of the BOND section of our Portfolio.

Now, discussing only FBND, a Core Plus ETF, talking of which Vanguard has recently introduced a Core Plus VPLS.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by grabiner »

Cocoa Beach Bum wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 10:47 am
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 6:25 pm...
Can you tell us where you heard that active management of bond funds is better?
An example from JPMorgan: Why active fixed income consistently outperforms the Agg.
Their active JCPB (JPMorgan Core Plus Bond ETF) has performed well.
However, it hasn't performed well because it is active; it has performed well because it chooses different categories of bonds. The Treasuries held by an active bond fund should match a Treasury index before expenses, the investment-grade corporate bonds should match a corporate index, and so on. You don't have to follow the Barclays Aggregate Index if you want a different trade-off between return and risk, or between different types of risk (for example, holding short-term junk bonds for more credit risk but less interest-rate risk).

The report also has one hidden incorrect claim. JPMorgan chooses to hold A and BB bonds in preference to BBB bonds, believing that bond indexing causes BBBs to be overvalued. It is true that an even mix of A and BB bonds outperforms BBB bonds. However, grades do not average in the bond market they way they do in school; a mix of 80% A and 20% BB has the same default rate as BBB. (Source: S&P 10-year corporate default rate statistics by grade). JPMorgan's article makes very little discussion of risk.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Cocoa Beach Bum »

grabiner wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:48 pm
Cocoa Beach Bum wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 10:47 am
An example from JPMorgan: Why active fixed income consistently outperforms the Agg.
Their active JCPB (JPMorgan Core Plus Bond ETF) has performed well.
...
The report also has one hidden incorrect claim. JPMorgan chooses to hold A and BB bonds in preference to BBB bonds, believing that bond indexing causes BBBs to be overvalued. It is true that an even mix of A and BB bonds outperforms BBB bonds. However, grades do not average in the bond market they way they do in school; a mix of 80% A and 20% BB has the same default rate as BBB. (Source: S&P 10-year corporate default rate statistics by grade). JPMorgan's article makes very little discussion of risk.
It's disappointing to discover JPMorgan Asset Management doesn't understand what bond ratings mean. 🙄

For those interested in an active inexpensive (ER=0.25) ETF whose objective is to beat the Agg/BND while holding a broadly diversified portfolio of investment grade USD fixed income securities, consider JBND - JPMorgan Active Bond ETF.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by retired@50 »

Rajsx wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 7:32 pm Now, discussing only FBND, a Core Plus ETF, talking of which Vanguard has recently introduced a Core Plus VPLS.
Now we're comparing apples to apples.

In the choice between FBND and VPLS, I'd choose VPLS due to the lower expense ratio.
FBND is 36 basis points, VPLS is 20 basis points. (0.36% v. 0.20%).

VPLS hasn't been around very long, but I don't think Vanguard lacks experience in the active bond space, so that's what I'd do if I were choosing between these two funds.

Regards,
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by sycamore »

Rajsx wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:38 pm I would think Morningstar Ratings which are followed widely amount to something with FBND a 4 star & BND 3 star,

About Morningstar Star ratings -
A 1–5 star rating that measures a fund's past performance
The highest rating of five stars is given to the top 10% of funds
Ratings are calculated at the end of each month
Ratings are based on a fund's risk-adjusted return over three, five, and ten years
The Morningstar Analyst ratings may be more relevant than Star ratings. Check your local library for more info.

BND - Gold, as are comparables AGG, BIV, and SCHZ - all intermediate-term investment grade bond index funds)
FBND - Gold, as is comparable IUSB

JBND - Silver
JCPB - Silver

VPLS - Bronze
VCRB - Bronze (as with VPLS, they rated average on the "people" measurement, in particular because the fund managers do not personally own any of their own fund's shares)
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

I am leaning towards VPLS the Core Plus Bond Fund, a active new etf from Vanguard -

Average duration is 5.2 yrs - (vs 5.9yrs for BND)
Average Coupon is 4.2% - ( vs 3.6% for BND)
Expense ratio of 0.20% - (vs 0,03% for BND)

I am hoping it turns out better than BND for me, increasing risk to reach for a better yield.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by mhc »

The general recommendation around here is to take the risk on the equity side. I don't know what the proof of that is, but one can increase risk by adjusting asset allocation (AA) and/or holding riskier funds. I adjust my risk with the AA knob.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

Thanks everyone for your feedback & thoughts......
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Ozonewanderer »

I believe that an active managed fund is better for bonds. Bond funds are not nearly as volatile as stocks. Bogleheads want passive, wide-market index funds for stocks to temper that volatility.

But consider that bonds enjoy priority repayment over other corporate obligations. Furthermore, the rates of bonds are contractually guaranteed.

Bonds may not pay off as predicted if the company goes bankrupt or if federal interest rates change. To manage the impact of interest rate change I lean toward intermediate term bonds. To manage the risk of bankruptcy I want a very high quality bond portfolio. BND, for example, meets these criteria.

However, considering that so many of the factors for bonds are known and can be mathematically analyzed, I want a bond expert to select and manage my bonds. I believe that a bond portfolio that contains some high quality, higher rate corporates can improve performance over a simple index bond fund. BND is 50% government bonds.

Fidelity's Total Bond Fund FTBFX and FBND ETF meet my criteria..
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by grabiner »

Ozonewanderer wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 10:05 pm I believe that an active managed fund is better for bonds. Bond funds are not nearly as volatile as stocks. Bogleheads want However, considering that so many of the factors for bonds are known and can be mathematically analyzed, I want a bond expert to select and manage my bonds. I believe that a bond portfolio that contains some high quality, higher rate corporates can improve performance over a simple index bond fund. BND is 50% government bonds.
You don't need to use an active fund to get this; you can get the higher return of corporate bonds at lower cost with an index. This is why I suggested VCIT (Vanguard Intermediate-Term Corporate ETF) earlier in this thread if you are willing to take the extra risk; you could also mix corporate and Treasury index funds in your desired ratio.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by OldSport »

grabiner wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 10:33 pm
Ozonewanderer wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 10:05 pm I believe that an active managed fund is better for bonds. Bond funds are not nearly as volatile as stocks. Bogleheads want However, considering that so many of the factors for bonds are known and can be mathematically analyzed, I want a bond expert to select and manage my bonds. I believe that a bond portfolio that contains some high quality, higher rate corporates can improve performance over a simple index bond fund. BND is 50% government bonds.
You don't need to use an active fund to get this; you can get the higher return of corporate bonds at lower cost with an index. This is why I suggested VCIT (Vanguard Intermediate-Term Corporate ETF) earlier in this thread if you are willing to take the extra risk; you could also mix corporate and Treasury index funds in your desired ratio.
Indeed, VCIT has actually performed better than FBND. The FBND has a very high ER relative to the lower expected bond returns. Both FBND and VCIT have performed better than BND and BIV. VGIT has not.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by OldSport »

I've spent some time today looking into bonds.

If you want to slicely juice the bond returns, such that they should at least beat inflation with slightly higher risk, VCIT looks like that's where it's at.

Over the past 10 years FBND has outperformed BND and BIV but not VCIT.

Finally getting access to longer term backtesting where bonds had more "normal" behavior show a clear advantage over cash long term, with BIV having a notable performance premium over BND, with little to no extra risk, and VCIT having a notable performance premium over BIV, with some more risk.

FBND did not have the older historical data, but VCIT beat them all on Sharpe and Sortino ratios, even accounting for its slightly higher max drawdown.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Ozonewanderer »

Yes, I see I see that VCIT has superior returns to Fidelity's FTBFX and FBND ETF. However, I use bonds in my asset allocation for wealth preservation, not returns. Therefore I want bonds of very high quality and intermediate term. The highest quality bonds in the world are US Treasuries. They do not default.

BND has is 50% government bonds and 24% corporate. FTBFX has 36% government bonds and 32% corporate VCIT is 100% corporate.

I use FTBFX as an alternative to BND
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

I understand when Equities go down, usually so will the Corporate Bonds, I do not know with all this Tariff talk, Bill Bernstein does not like Corporates although when I reach for yield that is exactly what I am doing.

If I stick with CDs, I am familiar with CDs, have bought many, that will be a reasonable way to go, I will know the rate it matures at, not like Fed Rate dependent BND, ugh yr 2022.

Already my AA at 80/20 has got lot of equity risk, why that high in retirement is a different question. In short the Portfolio being reasonably large(for us) that a good part of the portfolio is projected to go to Charities & to our two Children.
We are 68 & 63 both retired & are investing a part of our savings for the next generation so to speak. As we do Roth Conversions the AA continues to be aggressive

Our Asset breakdown is -
Taxable -67% - VTI + VXUS + 2 yr expenses in a Money Market
Roth -17% -VTI + VGT
IRA 16% - BND + CDs

Bond Markets are inefficient when compared to Stock, & I would like some one (Active) managing the cattle herd so to speak,
I have been with BND for 30+ yrs mostly grumbling, not understanding the Bonds, so that is the reason I am seeking active Bond Fund in our IRAs.

I just read in another post on this forum that Cash did better than BND in last 10 yrs, go figure that.

So, either it is continuing with CDs or an active Bond Fund,

I thank everyone to discuss fixed income with me to get my brain cells working
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

Thank you all to discuss/teach me regarding holdings in our IRAs -

I have sold 1/4th of BND & am getting into CDs, which I understand better & hopefully be better for our portfolio. I plan to sell all of BND in stages & our IRAs eventually be all CDs, no BND or no FBND.

We will see how this goes.........
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Ozonewanderer »

Some financial professionals recommend that CDs be used in retirement portfolios instead of bonds.
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Re: FBND vs BND for IRAs

Post by Rajsx »

I am buying a MYGA, a deferred Annuity from Fidelity at 5% for 3 yrs
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