Replacing furnace

[CWRadio]

I have a 22 year old 90 plus Bryant gas furnace that needs to be replace (secondary heat exchange)
Replacement quotes from local HVAC dealers were in the $6,000 range for a single stage replacement Bryant furnace with 96% AFUE.
I did get one quote from a dealer that was 35 miles away for the same furnace for $4,300 (installed)
The low bid was from a small shop (3 people in the field) but got over 200 five star google reviews. Been is business for 5 years
My question: Go with low bid or stay with local dealer. One concern is 35 miles away may not able to do service as fast as the others.
Another is "low price too good to be true"
What do Bogleheads think?

[GoldStar]

You said local dealers where $6000 so presumably you have multiple bids in this range?
I once went with a low bid (independent person) and they didn't do the install correctly. Sometimes you get what you pay for. I would personally pay the extra $$$ and go local. And the $4300 quote may be an "estimate" that will end up inflated to something close to the others (although I suppose if they routinely do this - it would negatively impact the ratings).
Check BBB for complaints and other review sites - not just Google.
If you are tight on cash - maybe ask the small outfit for references and make a couple of calls - I did that once for a job.

[inverter]

A single stage Bryant furnace is lower tiers of HVAC. Confirming you're aware of that?

[CWRadio]

A single stage Bryant furnace is lower tiers of HVAC. Confirming you're aware of that?

Yes. I know it is the lowest tear, but have lower Bryant now and happy with the comfort and heating bills.

[billfromct]

Make sure you understand if the replacement gas furnace qualifies for the Federal energy tax credit.

I think it is 30% up to $600.

The HVAC dealer should tell you if their replacement furnace qualifies & should, I think, tell you the details & what you need to do to get the energy credit.

You may want to google “energy tax credit for gas furnace replacement” to familiarize yourself before you make a dealer choice.

I have not qualified for an energy tax credit personally, but my kids have done some home improvement projects last year & have discussed some of the tax benefits.

bill

[CAsage]

Consider at least looking into the IRA rebates on upgrading equipment. You might find you can get a better unit at the same out of pocket cost. We just installed a new heat pump water heater (joy! New toy!) and there was a $700 coupon from California, plus 30% off from federal government for the rest.....

[CWRadio]

Check BBB for complaints and other review sites - not just Google.

Check other sites and all good reviews (homeAdviser, thumtack, yelp). No listing BBB

[CWRadio]

You may want to google “energy tax credit for gas furnace replacement” to familiarize yourself before you make a dealer choice.

$650 rebate from local gas company for 97% AFUE gas furnace.

[JazzTime]

Not sure why this post is in Personal Finance, but as a homeowner for over 40 years, I am well aware of the frustration in trying to determine whether a contractor knows what he is doing and whether he is offering a fair price. There are just too many variables. Reading reviews and seeing how long they have been in business is certainly helpful, but no guarantee you will be happy. A higher price is certainly no guarantee that the work will be better. If a contractor is very busy, they often give a high estimate because they don't need the work, but will be happy to accept the job if you are fool enough to pay the high estimate. Also, once you give the go ahead, there is no guarantee when they will actually start the job. Perhaps checking references by actually talking to a few recent customers could shed more light and help with decision making. Good luck!

[LittleMaggieMae]

Some things to think about (so rhetorical questions):
Is there some chance your local "HVAC" quotes came from a general contractor rather than an actual small business? And that's why their quote was higher than the 35 mile away business? The quote includes payment to the GC as well as the business doing the work?

I live in a densely populated area. 35 miles away is a 1.5 hour to 2 hour plus drive any day of the week. Then again the more local to me places have a 35 to 40 minute drive. What does a 35 mile drive look like where you live?

I do have yearly "maintenance" done on my furnace but that is something that is scheduled ahead of time (so I suspect the furnace business schedules this appointment when their people are in my area.) It doesn't matter how far they are from me for this type of service. (I have yearly service on a check valve that was installed on my sewer line to prevent basement flooding. The company that services it is 2 hours away. I defer to the Scheduling Lady and let her give me service date options -as she knows when and where her people will be in my area servicing or installing other homes, so her crew doesn't have to make a special trip to get to me.)

In the case of "emergency" service (say I'm without heat in January) I suspect I'd have a few hour or more (maybe even over night) wait to get service from my local furnace business just like if the guys were driving from really far away (like my flood prevention people).

[LadyGeek]

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (furnace).

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and explained what's wrong.)

[crefwatch]

Does "90 plus" mean "slightly over 90,000 BTU/hr?" Or "slightly over 90% efficiency?" What size is the proposed new furnace?

What state and climate character? I am confident that my 2-stage Lennox gas hot air furnace saves me a lot.

My old HVAC contractor was bought by a plumbing entrepreneur expanding his business, and the quality and customer experience is not what it was. My new furnace install was done by 3 men working about 8 hours, and required two return visits to get things getting going correctly. Be careful with low prices. Did the low-bid visit to prepare his bid? Does it include new (needed) transition ductwork? Building permit?

[CWRadio]

Does "90 plus" mean "slightly over 90,000 BTU/hr?" Or "slightly over 90% efficiency?" What size is the proposed new furnace?

What state and climate character? I am confident that my 2-stage Lennox gas hot air furnace saves me a lot.

The 90 plus mean the efficiency of the furnace. The new and old furnace is 100,000 BTU and one stage.

Two of the HVAC sales reps came to house and two just over the phone. Low bid over the phone. Price include all permits and 10 year parts and labor.
Good advice on making sure the know about transitional ductwork due to different size of old unit. They all know a AC A coil is on top of furnace.

[Toadinlaw]

10 years ago i went with a two stage system 96% efficiency and vary happy. Its still the top tier today. What ever you buy don't expect to get another 22 years out of it. They don't build the new stuff like the old stuff. IMO.

[ClevrChico]

I'd go with the smaller company with the better bid. The large shops here have been bought up by private equity.

[z06ray]

Perhaps I am a little more risky but I see zero reason not to choose the cheaper option that isn't even that far away.

I suspect the odds of an install issue are fairly low especially given the 200 5 star reviews. So if there is an issue it seems it would be with Bryant anyway.

I look at the cheaper smaller shop as the customer not helping fund all the overhead (trucks, sales people, commercials, etc).

[tibbitts]

My experience has been that anybody will service a furnace no matter who you bought it from.

[CWRadio]

My experience has been that anybody will service a furnace no matter who you bought it from.

Need to check if the warranty for 10 years of labor is from Bryant or from the HVAC dealer. I know the parts warranty is from Bryant.

[tibbitts]

My experience has been that anybody will service a furnace no matter who you bought it from.

Need to check if the warranty for 10 years of labor is from Bryant or from the HVAC dealer. I know the parts warranty is from Bryant.

Yes, I had a furnace with a 10-year manufacturer warranty. The selling dealer went out of business (or at least out of that business) but it wasn't a problem to have another dealer handle warranty issues.

[CWRadio]

I did additional investigation of the low bid HVAC dealer.
He does have a state HVAC license, is a franchise dealer for Bryant and his business is out of his garage. No storefront.

[twh]

Get a two stage furnace...you'll not regret it. Lower bills and the house will be more comfortable.

[bluefish123]

Get a 2 stage furnace but ditch the 96% efficiency and go with 80%. Must simpler system, 2 stage is more comfortable, and your gas bill will go down.

[LikeNumbers]

From my perspective, 35 miles is nothing.
Service calls for a new furnace will be minimal or perhaps zero for several years.

Make sure the two suppliers are compared apples 2 apples, get it in writing.

[lthenderson]

I personally would stop into the local dealer, show them the cheaper quote and ask why it might be so much cheaper. Listen to what they say and then go with my gut instinct.

[student]

Will both pull the necessary permits for the job? This is to see whether they are cutting corners.

[GoldStar]

I did additional investigation of the low bid HVAC dealer.
He does have a state HVAC license, is a franchise dealer for Bryant and his business is out of his garage. No storefront.

I wouldn't let lack of storefront dissuade me.
On warranty - note even if warranty comes from the manufacturer they can void it if the install is done incorrectly.

[njdealguy]

You might be able to get the large established local hvac dealers to price match the low bid by showing their quote.

Back some years ago I replaced my 2 zone system with almost top of the line Carrier air conditioners and furnaces (2 + 2) and local reputable company was quoting me almost 21k in total while relatively shady small company with mostly outright bad reviews (and a F rating on better business bureau) quoted about 16k for the same

Was able to get the big company to price match where they went down nearly 5k to the 16k amount. This was just before pandemic started

[CWRadio]

Thank you all. I found a local Bryant dealer for $300 more than the lowest price ($4,300) that I had concerns with.
The high bid from a HVAC dealer that was private equity buyout company.

[CenTexan]

The high bid from a HVAC dealer that was private equity buyout company.

How did you find this out? Just asked them "who owns you?"

[CWRadio]

The high bid from a HVAC dealer that was private equity buyout company.

How did you find this out? Just asked them "who owns you?"

I asked a local HVAC dealer if he knew anything about company X and in our conversation he told me they were purchase by private equity.

[twh]

How did you find this out? Just asked them "who owns you?"

I asked a local HVAC dealer if he new anything about company X and in our conversation he told me they were purchase by private equity.

Wow...they just keep buying up different segments and jacking up the prices. Medical, Housing, now HVAC -- crazy.

[UALflyer]

A single stage Bryant furnace is lower tiers of HVAC. Confirming you're aware of that?

I can't tell whether you intended to say this, but the implication here is that there is something wrong with a single stage furnace or that a single speed furnace is somehow undesirable. Neither is true. Although in cold climates, a two-stage furnace can sometimes make sense, as it's a relatively inexpensive upgrade, they also come with a number of downsides. The downsides are particularly pronounced in situations where the salesmen just tell people that a two-stage furnace improves "comfort" and "saves them money" while failing to measure airflow in different areas, which is exactly the way that many of these furnaces are sold.

It is exceptionally common for furnances not to be placed in the middle of a house with equal sized duct runs everywhere. Instead, you typically have duct runs that are much longer than other ones, which is one of the ways that you end up with airflow differences in different areas, which then lead to temperature imbalances. Multi-stage units are notorious for exacerbating these imbalances, as during low stage operations airflow imbalances can become that much more noticeable.

Hence, even if you are in a colder climate (which is where a multi-stage furnace can be helpful), you really shouldn't be buying a multi-stage furnace without getting your airflow measured.

With that said, I would ask the OP why he/she is only replacing the furnace rather than the entire system. Sometimes, replacing a single component makes sense, such as in a situation where the other components are fairly new. Overall, however, replacing an entire system is cheaper than replacing their components one by one, and when you just replace individual components, you won't get the same efficient gains (although you should never replace systems just for efficiency gains).

[UALflyer]

I did additional investigation of the low bid HVAC dealer.
He does have a state HVAC license, is a franchise dealer for Bryant and his business is out of his garage. No storefront.

I wouldn't let lack of storefront dissuade me.

Neither would I. In fact, I would stay away from large contractors with fancy storefronts, as you'll be at the mercy of whomever they happened to send you that day to install the unit, who may or may not be compenent. There's nothing wrong with large contractors, but their reviews won't tell you anything about the competency of your particular installer.

With a mom and pop shop that has been around for a while, the reviews will be for your actual installer or a member of their very small crew, so the reviews are much more likely to be meaningful. With HVAC contractors and businesses like it, it is exceptionally common for excellent contractors not to have a storefront, as they come out to their customers rather than the other way around.

[CWRadio]

With that said, I would ask the OP why he/she is only replacing the furnace rather than the entire system. Sometimes, replacing a single component makes sense, such as in a situation where the other components are fairly new.

Replacing my 22 year old one sage 90% Bryant that has been know for secondary heat exchange problems. My house has a downstairs master and three room upstairs with a open floor plan with high ceiling which results in different air flow in some of the rooms. Also the one stage AC is less than 8 years old. Thanks for your explanation of 2 stage furnace related to air flow.

[THY4373]

Get a two stage furnace...you'll not regret it. Lower bills and the house will be more comfortable.

I have a two stage gas furnace as backup to my heat pump. I agree from a comfort perspective that a two-stage is more comfortable and I recommend getting one if you can but I don't believe it is any more efficient assuming single stage and two stage are the same efficiency. Unlike heat pumps, gas running low and slow does nothing for efficiency.

[funxional]

You got your choice already but as the others said I have no problem with someone working out of their garage. Less overhead and for HVAC the overhead really isn't warranted.

I didn't understand it concern with service time. How often do you expect to call for service after a new install? 5+ years from now it's a crapshoot whether the company you use will have any relation to who installed it.

Warranty on labor means a little bit but I wouldn't weigh that too heavily when thinking about the distance.

In addition, if the person works regularly in your area he is likely going to be just as available to answer your call as a local company.

[UALflyer]

Also the one stage AC is less than 8 years old.

Did the indoor coil get replaced at the same time as the outdoor condenser? If not, you've got a 22 year old indoor coil, so at this point I'd replace the entire system. If, however, your indoor coil is 8 years old, it becomes a closer call and I'd probably lean towards replacing just the furnace.

Thanks for your explanation of 2 stage furnace related to air flow.

[UALflyer]

My experience has been that anybody will service a furnace no matter who you bought it from.

Need to check if the warranty for 10 years of labor is from Bryant or from the HVAC dealer. I know the parts warranty is from Bryant.

The labor warranty is almost certainly from the HVAC dealer and is conditioned upon you paying them for annual or even semi-annual maintenance. If so, I'd find out how much they charge for this maintenance and how often they want you to do it to maintain the labor warranty.

If it's annual and is inexpensive (around $80), it's fine. A lot of HVAC dealers, however, now charge an arm and a leg for semi-annual "maintenance" (it's in quotation marks because there's nothing that needs to be done to maintain a furnace on a semi-annual basis; there isn't even anything really that needs to be done on an annual basis) as a condition of maintaining the labor warranty, which makes it worthless.

All HVAC manufacturers offer extended warranties as well, but they're fairly expensive, so HVAC dealers do not just throw them in.

[CWRadio]

Also the one stage AC is less than 8 years old.

Did the indoor coil get replaced at the same time as the outdoor condenser? If not, you've got a 22 year old indoor coil, so at this point I'd replace the entire system. If, however, your indoor coil is 8 years old, it becomes a closer call and I'd probably lean towards replacing just the furnace.

Thanks for your explanation of 2 stage furnace related to air flow.

The A coil on top of the furnace, all tubing and outside compressor were replaced.
Main concern for replacement is carbon monoxide reading 116 ppm after combustion test. Tech said problem related to secondary heat exchange which Bryant 90 Plus furnace have an issue with.

[lazydavid]

I did additional investigation of the low bid HVAC dealer.
He does have a state HVAC license, is a franchise dealer for Bryant and his business is out of his garage. No storefront.

This says to me "talented, experienced installer who got fed up with corporate BS and struck out on his own." I'd ask a couple of questions to make sure I don't have it wrong, but based on the information in this thread, I'd be strongly in favor of this installer unless and until I uncovered a major red flag.

[UALflyer]

Main concern for replacement is carbon monoxide reading 116 ppm after combustion test. Tech said problem related to secondary heat exchange which Bryant 90 Plus furnace have an issue with.

That's certainly possible, but how did the tech isolate the problem to the furnace? Do you have carbon monoxide detectors in the house?

Do you have a water heater in the area? Water heaters tend to be a much more common cause of carbon monoxide in the area than furnaces. There can be quite a few other causes as well. Here's a thread on hvac-talk.com where professionals discuss this exact issue: https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/threads/22670 ... -poisoning

Here's another thread (be sure to click on the link in the OP, which will take you to the original thread): https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/threads/22464 ... -exchanger

[CWRadio]

That's certainly possible, but how did the tech isolate the problem to the furnace? Do you have carbon monoxide detectors in the house?

Thanks for your concerns.
I have a carbon monoxide detector next to the furnace and gas hot water heater. Reading of zero. Also have in master bedroom a detector.
Carbon monoxide was detected in the return PVC pipe of the gas furnace (small hole drilled).

[lazydavid]

I have a carbon monoxide detector next to the furnace and gas hot water heater. Reading of zero. Also have in master bedroom a detector.
Carbon monoxide was detected in the return PVC pipe of the gas furnace (small hole drilled).

So if I'm understanding correctly, CO was found inside the pipe used to exhaust combustion gases from your home, and that is somehow a problem?

If you check your car's tailpipe while it's running, you'll find CO. That doesn't mean you need a new engine. It means you shouldn't suck on the tailpipe.

[CWRadio]

So if I'm understanding correctly, CO was found inside the pipe used to exhaust combustion gases from your home, and that is somehow a problem?

Yes in pipe for exhaust gases. Tech said it should be 100 or less. I am trying to find the Bryant service manual that would tell me the correct Co ppm for exhaust.
According to Google Germini (AI):
The ideal carbon monoxide (CO) reading in the exhaust of a properly functioning gas furnace vented through a PVC stack pipe should be very low, ideally below 50 ppm.

[UALflyer]

So if I'm understanding correctly, CO was found inside the pipe used to exhaust combustion gases from your home, and that is somehow a problem?

Yes in pipe for exhaust gases. Tech said it should be 100 or less. I am trying to find the Bryant service manual that would tell me the correct Co ppm for exhaust. I will Google...

I would post this on hvac-talk.com and see what its professionals think. BH isn't a great place for this discussion.