Preserving wealth in case of cryonic preservation after death

[986racer]

Johns Hopkins disagrees with you : https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... ng-embryos

Well, that's news to me and not what we did when we did IVF.

Anyway, I don't think we should delve into 'when does life begin' scenarios as it gets too political.

Agreed that I don't want to delve into the political part of it. I'm just pointing out that because of the politics of it, thorny questions like this are no longer hypothetical and will start working their way through the court system.

[samsoes]

Eh...old technology. Kahn Noonian Singh figured it out in 1996, and the Robinson family in 1997.

[clip651]

Identity theft would also be a concern. If you wake up from being frozen and are expecting an account with a couple of million dollars in it you could find that 100 years ago someone had taking the account by claiming to be you.

Aside from that, It only takes a few years for accounts to be escheated to the state(s) due to account inactivity. I think that would be more likely than identity theft. Account escheatment has happened to friends and relatives of mine while they were alive, even! Who is going to keep a cryopreserved person's accounts active every few years for who knows how long? What sort of activity would they do? Paying the cryopreservation bills, I suppose ... and trying to find a new cryo company when that one goes bust.

[yankees60]

Buy gold bars and have them preserved with your body.

That was an old twilight zone episode where some people robbed an armour car of gold then used suspended animation to get wake up in the future. When they got there people were perplexed about why they though the gold was valuable.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Definitely did not see that one!

[flyingcows]

Pharaohs seemed to have the right idea, maybe include some precious metal bars in the cyropod? Hard to say what things today would be of any value in the future though

Memorizing a cryptocurrency private key might be an interesting idea, but the problem there is if your expecting to be frozen for 10s or hundreds of years it seems pretty unlikely any of the current ones would still be around

[Scubadude]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

Oddly, we have an elderly family member who wants this; but who is going to pay the monthly power bill ?

[femur]

I have been signed up with Alcor for about 18 years for whole body cryonic preservation.

I've thought about the wealth preservation thing found it not worth giving serious effort. I have too many other things going on in my life.

Its rare to come across another cryonics supporter.

Are you signed up with Alcor or another organization? How did you fund your membership? I am using a term life policy.

Cheers!

[watchnerd]

I have been signed up with Alcor for about 18 years for whole body cryonic preservation.

I've thought about the wealth preservation thing found it not worth giving serious effort. I have too many other things going on in my life.

Its rare to come across another cryonics supporter.

Are you signed up with Alcor or another organization? How did you fund your membership? I am using a term life policy.

Cheers!

So if you get revived in the future, how will you provide for yourself?

[femur]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

Oddly, we have an elderly family member who wants this; but who is going to pay the monthly power bill ?

At least at Alcor (the organization I am familiar with) part of the "fee" for preservation goes into a trust that handles monthly costs such as topping up with liquid nitrogen. The dewars where bodies/brains are kept dont use electricity; they are just giant thermoses!

[femur]

I have been signed up with Alcor for about 18 years for whole body cryonic preservation.

I've thought about the wealth preservation thing found it not worth giving serious effort. I have too many other things going on in my life.

Its rare to come across another cryonics supporter.

Are you signed up with Alcor or another organization? How did you fund your membership? I am using a term life policy.

Cheers!

So if you get revived in the future, how will you provide for yourself?

Hell if I know. Ill just be happy to be not dead. Maybe I can give lectures on how fun the 2009 financial crisis was.

[hicabob]

Just stay frozen for 1000 years or so ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16P3I0doEg

[Lookingforanswers]

Since my kids use my Netflix account, they would do everything in their power to keep my identity intact (and my estate's ability to make payments) so that Netflix thinks I'm still alive. This would get passed down to my grandkids, great-grandkids, and so on. All I have to do when I wake up is sign onto Netflix and then use that to establish the rest of my legal identity.

So as long as I have my Netflix password tattooed on my arm before I go into the deep freeze, I think I'm going to be OK.

[watchnerd]

So if you get revived in the future, how will you provide for yourself?

Hell if I know. Ill just be happy to be not dead. Maybe I can give lectures on how fun the 2009 financial crisis was.

I read a sci fi story where all the unfrozen people end up homeless and mentally unstable because they don't fit into society anymore nor have useful skills, depriving them of purpose

[like2read]

If it were Rodney Dangerfield who was frozen and brought back, he would have stories of stopping by his dry cleaner with a claim check, and being told that his suit would be ready next Tuesday.

[Softballer]

I would leave instructions to invest in brawndo as soon as it is invented. It will likely have what plants crave.

[Nicolas]

The Twilight Zone Season 2 Episode 24

“The Rip Van Winkle Caper” is an episode of The Twilight Zone where four thieves enter suspended animation chambers to hide for 100 years after stealing $1 million worth of gold bullion. The mastermind, Farwell, leads a group of criminals who plan to avoid detection by sleeping through a century in a secret cave in Death Valley. When they awaken, they discover that their plan is complicated by interpersonal conflicts and the changing world.

I won’t reveal the surprise ending. It may be pertinent to this thread.

[cowdogman]

Give all your money to Cher. She'll probably still be around.

[yankees60]

Give all your money to Cher. She'll probably still be around.

!!!!!!!!!!!

And, looking even better than she does today!

The ageless Cher!

[nisiprius]

...In the far north there are wood frogs that freeze completely solid and then come back to life every spring. It’s pretty amazing. I don’t know how long they can be kept frozen and be brought back.

Yes, I'd forgotten that. But the problem here is that not only are frogs physiologically different from humans, the ones that can survive freezing are physiologically different from other frogs. So how do you apply this to humans? Inject wood frog DNA to turn us into human/frog chimeras?

And another detail is that while they are a heck of a lot bigger than tardigrades, they still weigh only about a quarter of an ounce. All of the problems of non-injurious freezing and thawing get more and more difficult as the size of the body increases.

This vaguely reminds me of Pascal's Wager which is beyond the scope of this forum but here is link to get you started if you are not familiar with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

I think it is within the scope of the article because it's an important objection to what Bishop69 wrote:

If you don't arrange for this before death, you just die and have zero chance for revival in the future. If you do, the chances may be still zero but may be more than zero. If it doesn't work out, who cares. You are already dead.

This argument is equally valid for anyone promising to offer some kind of afterlife. That's the big problem with Pascal's Wager. How do you choose which afterlife proposition to gamble on?

[valleyrock]

If cryonic preservation was a real thing, Elon Musk would be there. For one thing, it could be used for travel to Mars. Seriously.

Think about what happens when water freezes...it expands as the temperature goes from 4 deg C to O, the freezing point. That's why pipes burst in homes when the heat is off in winter. No matter how fast they freeze you, your brain cells will take that ride from 4 deg C to 0 deg C and the water within will expand and render the cells unusable, except maybe for pudding.

I'll wager no-one is making money offering this service. But if they did, would private equity buy in?

[valleyrock]

In a hundred/thousand years is the answer still Camry, Miata, Sienna, or Rav4?

No. We will be teleporting by then.

[LifeAquaticTenenbaum]

I'll ask Life Extension if they offer a package with a wealth management add-on

And worst case, I can always call Tech Support

[watchnerd]

If cryonic preservation was a real thing, Elon Musk would be there. For one thing, it could be used for travel to Mars. Seriously.

Think about what happens when water freezes...it expands as the temperature goes from 4 deg C to O, the freezing point. That's why pipes burst in homes when the heat is off in winter. No matter how fast they freeze you, your brain cells will take that ride from 4 deg C to 0 deg C and the water within will expand and render the cells unusable, except maybe for pudding.

I'll wager no-one is making money offering this service. But if they did, would private equity buy in?

To be fair, "cryo sleep" in sci fi isn't supposed to be actually freezing you, but inducing a state of torpor. Your heart is still breathing, you still breathe, etc, just very slowly.

Raccoons, bats, and other mammals can do this.

SpaceWorks Engineering is actually working on this for humans:

https://techport.nasa.gov/projects/88911

[nisiprius]

If cryonic preservation was a real thing, Elon Musk would be there. For one thing, it could be used for travel to Mars. Seriously.

Think about what happens when water freezes...it expands as the temperature goes from 4 deg C to O, the freezing point. That's why pipes burst in homes when the heat is off in winter. No matter how fast they freeze you, your brain cells will take that ride from 4 deg C to 0 deg C and the water within will expand and render the cells unusable, except maybe for pudding.

I'll wager no-one is making money offering this service. But if they did, would private equity buy in?

The cryonics people do have handwaving answers, involving "advanced nanotechnology." Cryopreservation and fracturing has a lot of stuff about "vitrification" and "cryoprotectants." It also acknowledges

Fracturing is a special concern for vitrification protocols that Alcor began using at the turn of the century. Ideally, vitrification avoids ice formation completely so that the entire tissue mass becomes an undisturbed block of glass.

In other words, they are hoping to minimize fracturing with adjustments in methodology--but they have fractured bodies in storage dating from the time when they were willing to take money for processes that did result in fracturing.

It should be mentioned that if advanced nanotechnology is available for patient recovery, then fracturing per se probably causes little information loss....

Probably?

... the number of fracture lines in a single solution mass can be very large... Fracturing therefore commits cryopatients to the need for molecular repair at cryogenic temperatures (a highly specialized and advanced form of nanotechnology) whereas unfractured patients may be able to benefit sooner from simpler forms of nanotechnology developed for more mainstream medical applications.

I'm not clear on whether that "advanced nanotechnology" exists.

The advent of vitrifying cryoprotectants which block ice crystal formation when properly applied has led to a shift in focus to another well-recognized problem; cracking of the perfused organs on a macroscopic scale.

Ick. Ick. Ick.

[Thesaints]

Cryonic preservation without rejuvenation is an abomination

[watchnerd]

Cryonic preservation without rejuvenation is an abomination

What about Lenin's tomb?

[iamlucky13]

If I have to give a serious answer, it starts with making sure you have adequate funds in the bank at the time of preservation to pay the ongoing maintenance costs and grow. Then, I think rather than assuming the investment can be left fully passive to just sit and wait for you, it would be necessary to consult an attorney about creating a trust to ensure someone is ensuring the funds don't get either orphaned in case the original brokerage fails or the funds are closed, end up going through the unclaimed property process and ultimately surrendered to the state, or possibly even have to deal with major enough changes in laws or the markets that the custodian has to have enough authority to update the terms of the trust appropriately, yet still protect against exploitation by the trustee.

But more imporantly, the proper way to research this topic is to read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, focusing especially on The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, and then to watch the entirety of Futurama. The first explains the principles of investing over extremely long time frames, and the second provides abundant material to understand the challenges of adapting to life after an abrupt shift to the distant future, including finding work, making new friends, learning how to appropriately (and legally) interact with robots, etc.

Someone else also referenced the Star Trek original series episode Space Seed, but I don't think it provides as much insight into the financial or other practical aspects extending significantly longer than the normal human lifetime.

[ddbtoth]

Right, this is why immortals should plan on just getting jobs and not retiring--one of the hidden downsides of immortality.

Or, you could serially marry pretty rich ladies. Outliving them may be a perk.

[hoofaman]

Hell if I know. Ill just be happy to be not dead. Maybe I can give lectures on how fun the 2009 financial crisis was.

I read a sci fi story where all the unfrozen people end up homeless and mentally unstable because they don't fit into society anymore nor have useful skills, depriving them of purpose

That reminds me, I need to watch this movie as it's on my list: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

Corporal Joe Bauers, a decidedly average American, is selected for a top-secret hibernation program but is forgotten and left to awaken to a future so incredibly moronic that he's easily the most intelligent person alive.

[Dottie57]

Since my kids use my Netflix account, they would do everything in their power to keep my identity intact (and my estate's ability to make payments) so that Netflix thinks I'm still alive. This would get passed down to my grandkids, great-grandkids, and so on. All I have to do when I wake up is sign onto Netflix and then use that to establish the rest of my legal identity.

So as long as I have my Netflix password tattooed on my arm before I go into the deep freeze, I think I'm going to be OK.

So Netflix will survive? I might rethink that.

[valleyrock]

Cryonic preservation without rejuvenation is an abomination

What about Lenin's tomb?

Hey, Mao is preserved in a mauselurum on Tianamin Square in Beijing. I've been there.

[Ralph Furley]

This gives a whole new meaning to "VTSAX and chill"

(I didn't read all of the responses, in case there is another comedian here)

[watchnerd]

What about Lenin's tomb?

Hey, Mao is preserved in a mauselurum on Tianamin Square in Beijing. I've been there.

Me, too.

I'm sure at some point they'll be able to revive him as a cyborg or something.

[d270]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death.

Sequence of return risk may be less of an issue as you could cryonically preserve yourself through periods of low return. Your asset allocation could be more aggressive to maximize your expected return, as you are now able to exist an infinite number of years to try and maximize expected wealth.

While you're at it, why not also try to figure out how to use retirement income if an alien spaceship lands on earth, and you have an opportunity to go live on another planet? It's always good to be prepared for the unexpected.

We will need to evaluate home planet bias, allocation to offworld equities and bonds, in addition to US/exUS equities and bonds.

...more difficult as the size of the body increases.

Perhaps the human body must be first dehydrated and shrunk to overcome this challenge. The wait time in preservation can be extended until even more advanced technology allows for reconstitution.

[SnowBog]

I read a sci fi story where all the unfrozen people end up homeless and mentally unstable because they don't fit into society anymore nor have useful skills, depriving them of purpose

That reminds me, I need to watch this movie as it's on my list: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

Corporal Joe Bauers, a decidedly average American, is selected for a top-secret hibernation program but is forgotten and left to awaken to a future so incredibly moronic that he's easily the most intelligent person alive.

You are the second poster to reference this movie... The other referred to "what plants crave" - which is from the movie...

Even if you don't watch the whole movie, watch the opening scene. I still can't decide if I find it hilarious or sad (or a bit of both)... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HD ... p=2AEBkAIB

[Dregob]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

I assume all my accounts will be frozen.

[typical.investor]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

I would assume that the first version of any technology is flawed. And for something this complicated perhaps the second.

As such, you may be revived with some chronic (and perhaps new) ailment. Thus, the amount you thought would suffice may fall short.

In that line of thought, you may also budget for a long and expensive court battle to perhaps get compensation for your poor health. That will surely be prohibited in the terms though, so you may need an investigative team to monitor their internal communication to find what they are hiding so you can use it in court.

In any case, you would want investments that can keep up with inflation.

So, I'd say definitely go with a corporate trustee and leave assets to charity if the technology isn't working in say 1,000 years.

But honestly, by your description I don't think it would work. Wouldn't you likely go into preservation in a bad (at least old) state, and revived in the same condition? If health care to turn back aging is common, I would think inflation would start to run rampant as the population increased.

So perhaps the only way to afford it would be if you invested in the company that created the technology. As developing tech is hit and miss, perhaps you should find an index fund that covers the industry. That may not work though if the successful company is privately held.

Not to be negative on the idea, but I would imagine that those actually developing the technology would understand the implications it would have for population levels and might choose to auction off treatment to the ultra wealthy and then also use it for their close friends and family. As such, it may not really be available.

Then, if you are setting aside so much for your possible return to good health, I wonder if your heirs might contest whatever trust you set up under the idea that you are just looney. Not suggesting you are, but I would think heirs who want the pie will say any and everything to get it after you are gone and upon the first report of setback, side effect or rising cost of the technology when doubt creeps in.

So see your lawyer and be sure also to discuss someone having Medical Power of Attorney. As the tech matures, some decision will have to be made if it is ready enough yet. Also, if it goes horrible wrong, you may want someone to have the power to put you out of your misery (if in a jurisdiction where that is possible) or at least to decline further treatment and prolong your misery. And I think fraud would be a risk here with those responsible cutting a deal with heirs to conclude the tech is not and never will be sufficient for what you had envisioned. Again, run that by your lawyer though I am not sure you can find someone with much experience in the area.

And obviously, once you are back, keep your spending to a perpetual withdrawal rate. We could assume 2.5% or so, but really have no idea on what kind of ongoing treatment you might need or its cost in order to maintain your youth. Big unknown that and difficult to plan for.

I do find that researchers are overstating progress. For example, calling a worm's conditioned reaction to benzaldehyde proof that memories can survive cryogenic preservation seems an extreme stretch. Yeah yeah yeah 'conditioned reactions' are a type of memory sure. But it is not the type we generally associate with consciousness. So maybe we can bring back worm zombies but it is not yet know if human personalities will ever be possible.

How does a different consciousness in your body sound? I am not sure I would want to pay much, if anything for that.

[986racer]

There is some story that used to be on one of the usenet groups about a dollar that was left at a bank account for many millennia and the intergalactic economy was built around the interest that came due every year. I can't find it with a google search but was wondering if anybody has a link. It was an entertaining short story

Found it : John Jones's Dollar

It's a quick read (just a few pages) and quite entertaining

[Thesaints]

In 1927 the writer thought that "a special board of directors" had to be created to manage a <50M capital
But he got the cellphone and zoom quite right, which is amazing !

[Bishop69]

If anybody is interested, I've spoken to a couple of cryonic companies and they gave contact info of the attorneys/estate planners their clients work with. Based on the conversations I've had with these legal professionals, they do seem to have developed a cryonic asset preservation trust structure that actually works. Will be reviewing it further. It seems like solutions do exist.

[Bishop69]

I want to discuss the financial aspects of cryonic preservation of the body after death. Has anyone considering this procedure developed a plan for preservation of assets so that they may be continued to be used upon revival and potential achievement of immortality? Have you identified any other financial issues?

I would assume that the first version of any technology is flawed. And for something this complicated perhaps the second.

As such, you may be revived with some chronic (and perhaps new) ailment. Thus, the amount you thought would suffice may fall short.

In that line of thought, you may also budget for a long and expensive court battle to perhaps get compensation for your poor health. That will surely be prohibited in the terms though, so you may need an investigative team to monitor their internal communication to find what they are hiding so you can use it in court.

In any case, you would want investments that can keep up with inflation.

So, I'd say definitely go with a corporate trustee and leave assets to charity if the technology isn't working in say 1,000 years.

But honestly, by your description I don't think it would work. Wouldn't you likely go into preservation in a bad (at least old) state, and revived in the same condition? If health care to turn back aging is common, I would think inflation would start to run rampant as the population increased.

So perhaps the only way to afford it would be if you invested in the company that created the technology. As developing tech is hit and miss, perhaps you should find an index fund that covers the industry. That may not work though if the successful company is privately held.

Not to be negative on the idea, but I would imagine that those actually developing the technology would understand the implications it would have for population levels and might choose to auction off treatment to the ultra wealthy and then also use it for their close friends and family. As such, it may not really be available.

Then, if you are setting aside so much for your possible return to good health, I wonder if your heirs might contest whatever trust you set up under the idea that you are just looney. Not suggesting you are, but I would think heirs who want the pie will say any and everything to get it after you are gone and upon the first report of setback, side effect or rising cost of the technology when doubt creeps in.

So see your lawyer and be sure also to discuss someone having Medical Power of Attorney. As the tech matures, some decision will have to be made if it is ready enough yet. Also, if it goes horrible wrong, you may want someone to have the power to put you out of your misery (if in a jurisdiction where that is possible) or at least to decline further treatment and prolong your misery. And I think fraud would be a risk here with those responsible cutting a deal with heirs to conclude the tech is not and never will be sufficient for what you had envisioned. Again, run that by your lawyer though I am not sure you can find someone with much experience in the area.

And obviously, once you are back, keep your spending to a perpetual withdrawal rate. We could assume 2.5% or so, but really have no idea on what kind of ongoing treatment you might need or its cost in order to maintain your youth. Big unknown that and difficult to plan for.

I do find that researchers are overstating progress. For example, calling a worm's conditioned reaction to benzaldehyde proof that memories can survive cryogenic preservation seems an extreme stretch. Yeah yeah yeah 'conditioned reactions' are a type of memory sure. But it is not the type we generally associate with consciousness. So maybe we can bring back worm zombies but it is not yet know if human personalities will ever be possible.

How does a different consciousness in your body sound? I am not sure I would want to pay much, if anything for that.

Thanks for the detailed post. With regards to the tech that can reverse the aging process, it will cost quite a bit of money for sure, but I'd be leaving substantial assets in my cryonic trust which I'd say will be enough to pay for it even before the Moore's law kicks in for real. Currently in talks with estate planners who have been working closely with cryonic companies and claim to have developed trust structures that could actually work for long-term preservation of assets. And then again, I could instruct the cryonic company to revive me once the money in my trust is enough to pay for the whole process anyway.

As for your last point, the transhumanism aspect of this is really fuzzy. I'll give you that. I'm not really sure what I'll become once revived but I'm still eager to give it a try. No one will ever be able to tell how it'll turn out until someone successfully makes it to the other side. I just don't see the point of decomposing to dust 6 feet deep. The only potential negative scenario that I can envision is that I die, God exists and God is not happy that I cryopreserved myself and sentences me to eternal agony for this (though I'm not sure if this could actually be considered a sin), the tech meanwhile never works and I'm left forever in perpetual torment. I really doubt such a scenario TBH

[nisiprius]

If you really believe the cryonics companies can keep their promise to keep the body safe and under proper cryonic conditions for a hundred years or more... they all have financial partners that promise to keep your money safe and earning enough to pay the annual fees and pay for revival. If you trust them with your body, why not trust them with your money?

[MJS]

Stupid question time.... there was a post earlier that said that only very simple organisms (and not mammals) can be frozen under current technology. How does frozen embryos work for IVF patients though?

Technically, tardigrades are very complex compared to embryos: limbs, vision, a digestive system, nerves - about 1000 cells. Frozen embryos have 1-150 cells, without much differentiation. And frozen embryo implantation has a ~40-60% chance of pregnancy.

Freezing is hard on cells.

[986racer]

If anybody is interested, I've spoken to a couple of cryonic companies and they gave contact info of the attorneys/estate planners their clients work with. Based on the conversations I've had with these legal professionals, they do seem to have developed a cryonic asset preservation trust structure that actually works. Will be reviewing it further. It seems like solutions do exist.

I'd be leery. This is an amazing documentary about someone who thought he had an iron-clad trust document and it slowly got chipped away over time as the assets became worth billions : Art of the Steal

[cubs1999]

I haven't had the chance to read all the replies yet. My initial thoughts is that years ago I thought about this. Then I read about Ted William's body at that cryo place.which made me decide I didn't care for the process. Look up the story of how his frozen body was handled and see if it doesn't change your mind.

[cosmos]

If it were Rodney Dangerfield who was frozen and brought back, he would have stories of stopping by his dry cleaner with a claim check, and being told that his suit would be ready next Tuesday.

No respect...