Sibling's house burned down in fires - anything I should tell them about insurance?

[Czilla9000]

Hi,

My sister's house and car were casualties of the fires in California. Her homeowners insurance is with Mercury and her car insurance is with Geico. She has already made claims, but is there anything else I should advise her to do?

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

check her policy or with her agent about coverage for temporary housing (hotel, etc) and rental car (though maybe that would be through auto insurance?) if covered.

[RickBoglehead]

Start making list of all contents she can remember.

[PerpetualPadawan]

Sorry to hear about your sibling's loss. One thing to note is that the exact description of lost items can greatly affect the reimbursement that an insurance company will provide. There's an amazingly detailed Reddit post where an insurance adjuster describes how the description of an item can affect the reimbursement. One brief excerpt:

* If you said "toaster - $25" , we would have to be within -20% of that... so, we would find something that's pretty much dead-on $20.01.
* If you said "toaster- $200" , we'd kick it back and say NEED MORE INFO, because that's a ridiculous price for a toaster (with no other information given.)
* If you said "toaster, from Walmart" , you're getting that $4.88 one.
...
* If you said "High-end Toaster, Stainless Steel, Blue glowing power button" ... you might get $35-50 instead. We had to match all features that were listed.

Original URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinanc ... t/cziljy3/

Warning: there is pretty colorful language in the post; nonetheless, the content is very useful.

[StoopieHippo]

Start making list of all contents she can remember.

And be as specific as possible. Don't just put TOASTER, but put Breville Die-Cast 4-Slice Smart Toaster. The more specific you are, the more you'll recoop - otherwise they'll find the cheapest item that matches the description to reimburse you for.

[SnakeEyes]

Tell them to look at the United Policyholders (UP) website - especially the "Roadmap to Recovery" under the "Recovery Help" tab.
https://uphelp.org

UP is a non-profit that was founded by people who went through a wildfire and battled their insurance companies without help. Their goal is to guide people through the process and avoid the pitfalls that the founders experienced.

[Watty]

....but is there anything else I should advise her to do?

Forward her mail when she can.

If they had a landline phone then port the phone number to a cell phone.

[Wricha]

I hate to say this but the insurance on the house is going to be very difficult. I imagine the auto insurance will be relatively easy. The car rental reimbursement may be tricky check policy on time frame on rental reimbursement. She is going to need to keep a detailed record of every correspondence with home insurance company. They will change adjusters on her, they will misrepresent coverage and most importantly they will lie to her, guarantee (you just can't believe people will lie to you during this terrible time). They will make life very difficult for her to wear her down. It is a cruel process when the insurance company is dealing with billions of dollars in losses. I have first hand experience with 7 figure insurance claim due to a hurricane. Took 2 years to settle, I am retired and relentless with access to lawyers/contractors. It become a full time job. She needs to be vigilant Take plenty of pictures and old pictures to justify contents. Use email as much as possible to keep a record. Frame all questions as tightly as possible force yes and no answers as much as possible. And never give up. If she is not up for the fight might consider a public adjuster (they take 10% of the claim) or lawyer who will take more. Sorry for her loss good luck.

[KeepItSimpleSomehow]

Hi,

My sister's house and car were casualties of the fires in California. Her homeowners insurance is with Mercury and her car insurance is with Geico. She has already made claims, but is there anything else I should advise her to do?

Friend's vehicle totalled in Dec (other car ran red light) in Orange County CA. Car insurance paid for rental car for two weeks -but- Enterprise gave option to continue the rental at the car insurance company (Mercury) rate instead of the lowest retail rate.

Maybe your sister could get a reduced rate also if Geico rental coverage ends sooner than she can replace her vehicle.

[quantAndHold]

Start making list of all contents she can remember.

And be as specific as possible. Don't just put TOASTER, but put Breville Die-Cast 4-Slice Smart Toaster. The more specific you are, the more you'll recoop - otherwise they'll find the cheapest item that matches the description to reimburse you for.

I’m sorry for your sister’s loss. Living in Southern California myself, I’m watching what’s going on with horror.

Anyway, a reminder to the rest of us. Take your phone, and go through your house and make a detailed video of the contents of each room, and store the video (or videos) in the cloud. If you ever end up needing to make a list like this, you’ll be very glad to have the videos.

[stan1]

Consider hiring someone to assist with filing the homeowners claim (term is a public adjuster), I'd guess that 90+% plus of the people in the Pacific Palisades area will do this because of the dollar value of their loss in the structure, high end design and decor, and contents. This person (or business) will have the experience and resources to file a complex claim including working with adjustors from the insurers. Don't have a recommendation but it is widely done especially if someone has the resources but is not willing or able to put hundreds of hours of work into it themselves. Unless she is willing and able to put in a lot of time herself the cost of the public adjustor could be made up with a higher payment, the claim might get paid faster with fewer rounds of rejections due to paperwork issues, and she would have independent advice on whether an attorney needs to be brought in.

[Kings over Queens]

First piece of advice, get an ENTIRE copy of the policy. The declarations page might show one number but pages deeper into the policy you'll likely find enhancements that increase coverage for certain items.

Not knowing the extent of the damage and making an assumption it's a total loss, help her find temporary housing. If a partial loss, she needs to do what she can to protect the house and its contents from additional damage. This could include tarping the roof, boarding windows, stuff like that.

Managing her expectations will help. This is likely to be a very long range ordeal and it wouldn't surprise me if it takes 2 years. She might get the claim settled sooner, but rebuilding takes a long time.

[Mems20]

If I was dealing with a home loss, I would (1) take a pic/keep a copy of every receipt even slightly related to expenses incurred bc of the loss, (2) get a copy of the policy and read it in detail so I would have an idea ahead of time what to expect to be included and excluded, (3) read through the policy again to see what is required of me, and (4) make sure to get the email address of whoever I talk to and then email them with a summary of any conversation to confirm what was said. In the meantime, I would also go through my phone pics and make a folder of any pics that show the interior of the house in the background to help when it's time to itemize.

If there is a mortgage, you may need to let your mortgagee know - it is likely also insured through the policy and may be the loss payee w/r/t the structure. I would review the mortgage to see what it says about a loss.

[FootballFan5548]

Consider hiring someone to assist with filing the homeowners claim (term is a public adjuster), I'd guess that 90+% plus of the people in the Pacific Palisades area will do this because of the dollar value of their loss in the structure, high end design and decor, and contents. This person (or business) will have the experience and resources to file a complex claim including working with adjustors from the insurers. Don't have a recommendation but it is widely done especially if someone has the resources but is not willing or able to put hundreds of hours of work into it themselves. Unless she is willing and able to put in a lot of time herself the cost of the public adjustor could be made up with a higher payment, the claim might get paid faster with fewer rounds of rejections due to paperwork issues, and she would have independent advice on whether an attorney needs to be brought in.

I came here to say the same thing. I had a horrible home flood in 2021, damn near totaled my entire house down to the studs, multiple levels, it was bad. I was referred to a public adjuster, the guy was an absolute bulldog... he had the tough conversations with the insurance company that I wouldn't want to have... he itemized every single thing in my home, down to old baby clothes stored in the basement... to the individual article of clothing. He got me back more from the insurance company than I ever would have gotten back on my own. He did take a cut, I think 8% of my return proceeds, but it was pennies compared to the increase of what I recovered from what State Farm originally valued things at.

[neowiser]

LA Times had this article this morning:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... -explainer

Hopefully no paywall, but this excerpt is worth quoting:

If your house is completely destroyed in an event that resulted in a state of emergency being declared in California — as is the case with the current wildfires — your insurance company is required to immediately pay you a minimum of one-third of the estimated value of your personal belongings (also known as contents) and a minimum of four months’ worth of rent for the local area in which you live.

Those payments are required whether an adjuster has inspected your home or not, said Michael Soller, a spokesperson with the California Department of Insurance. The department has a list of 10 tips for wildfire claimants here.

You can also ask your insurance provider for cash advances for living expenses, such as renting furniture. There are companies that can come to your temporary home and furnish it down to towels, sheets and kitchen utensils.

[mnnice]

We had a house fire in a rental house. At the time my paid employment responsibilities were limited. This was good because advocating for my family with the insurance company was a full time job for about six months.

I had the time and the temperament for it. If not the aforementioned public adjuster would be wise.

[nanciT]

Very sorry to hear about your siblings home lost. It's such an overwhelming time. Speaking from experience, my Mom was 88 when her home was lost in the CZU Santa Cruz fire in 2020. I had her documents which was helpful and was able to go through her policy.

The insurance company did quickly send money for living expenses. I called them the morning after we found the house was completely gone. There was a great deal of work to do as far as finding photos of the house, upgrades etc. We were required to do a drawing of the house which was a custom home. The family all went through their most recent holiday photos or any that we had over the last 5 years showing the house and contents. They required a list of everything...which was impossible but we did our best. It took time for us to come up with everything required. They asked about landscaping, how many trees, plants etc.
They sent an appraiser up to meet with us to show exactly where the house stood. We brought spray paint to use as a marker and marked the house out.

In the end my mother was under insured and had not updated her policy to todays standard. I spoke with several people and experts about the settlement before signing off.

I would collect as much data now, start listing everything now. Things will come up over time but the policy has limits and it's important to know what those are in detail.

So sorry for their loss, it's alot to go through.

[ResearchMed]

LA Times had this article this morning:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... -explainer

Hopefully no paywall, but this excerpt is worth quoting:

If your house is completely destroyed in an event that resulted in a state of emergency being declared in California — as is the case with the current wildfires — your insurance company is required to immediately pay you a minimum of one-third of the estimated value of your personal belongings (also known as contents) and a minimum of four months’ worth of rent for the local area in which you live.

Those payments are required whether an adjuster has inspected your home or not, said Michael Soller, a spokesperson with the California Department of Insurance. The department has a list of 10 tips for wildfire claimants here.

You can also ask your insurance provider for cash advances for living expenses, such as renting furniture. There are companies that can come to your temporary home and furnish it down to towels, sheets and kitchen utensils.

[emphasis added]


Given the number of claims that are likely to be filed (!), I'd suggest that as soon as there is some mental/emotional bandwidth to start dealing with the devastation... get started asap.
That is, at least contact assorted providers, get on the list. This could include rental cars, rental lodging, furnishing rentals, etc.

There's likely to be sort of a run on these services and items.
This includes a furnished rental, for starters. It's likely to be overwhelming, so at least initially, I'd suggest getting everything "already done", and worry about "better" longer-term choices in later stages.

Separately, we once furnished a rental property with furniture we purchased from a furniture rental place, although we purchased new things. One could also purchase used items, former rental items.
They had a wide variety of not just styles, but quality and price points. Some were surprisingly nice, and they were all "ready for delivery", etc.
They had just about everything one would need, including lamps, linens, kitchen equipment/supplies, etc. We didn't get any of this, but I did notice that again, there was quite a variety of choices.

A public adjuster sounds like a useful idea. Again, consider getting in touch with one sooner rather than later. They're likely to get swamped, too.

I can't even imagine the situation there in the LA area, and it's not close to over.

RM

[id0ntkn0wjack]

Might want to look into FEMA options in addition to insurance

https://www.disasterassistance.gov/

[leftofdial]

We lost our house to fire many years ago. There is money for loss of use (hotel costs, meals, etc) , the rebuilding itself, and money for contents. With our contents, we had to list every item we could with approx date purchased and price paid. The more detail the better. They give you the depreciated price, then if you re buy the item, you get the depreciation back up to the full replacement cost. You will probably max out the contents coverage.

As others have mentioned, the insurance company will probably advance you some $$. You will need it. It takes time to get reimbursed for your contents, so you will be spending a lot while waiting for reimbursements.

With the rebuilding, we got an amount that covered rebuilding costs with the levels of finish that we had (less deductible), and we were able to use that money to build whatever we wanted, and chip in extra for additional space or upgrades to finish levels

[mnnice]

Given the number of claims that are likely to be filed (!), I'd suggest that as soon as there is some mental/emotional bandwidth to start dealing with the devastation... get started asap.
That is, at least contact assorted providers, get on the list. This could include rental cars, rental lodging, furnishing rentals, etc.

There's likely to be sort of a run on these services and items.
This includes a furnished rental, for starters. It's likely to be overwhelming, so at least initially, I'd suggest getting everything "already done", and worry about "better" longer-term choices in later stages.

Separately, we once furnished a rental property with furniture we purchased from a furniture rental place, although we purchased new things. One could also purchase used items, former rental items.
They had a wide variety of not just styles, but quality and price points. Some were surprisingly nice, and they were all "ready for delivery", etc.
They had just about everything one would need, including lamps, linens, kitchen equipment/supplies, etc. We didn't get any of this, but I did notice that again, there was quite a variety of choices.

A public adjuster sounds like a useful idea. Again, consider getting in touch with one sooner rather than later. They're likely to get swamped, too.

I can't even imagine the situation there in the LA area, and it's not close to over.

RM

Time is also of essence because generally you have 180 days to settle the personal possession part of the settlement.

[boomer_techie]

My sister's house and car were casualties of the fires in California. Her homeowners insurance is with Mercury and her car insurance is with Geico. She has already made claims, but is there anything else I should advise her to do?

I suspect this may be a "market collapse event." (Insurance market.) These fires were not out in the sticks. Not a KB Home development of Rancho Remote Canyon. Instead, large swaths of urban neighborhoods burned, many of them old and historic areas filled with expensive homes. It could turn out that the insurance companies simply cannot pay all claims.

Keep in mind that this weather event isn't over. Detailed weather models show not a drop of rain expected in the next two weeks (in Southern and Central California.) The current weather setup could produce several more Santa Ana wind events. Further out, multiple weather models are predicting a dry January through March.

[neowiser]

My sister's house and car were casualties of the fires in California. Her homeowners insurance is with Mercury and her car insurance is with Geico. She has already made claims, but is there anything else I should advise her to do?

I suspect this may be a "market collapse event." (Insurance market.) These fires were not out in the sticks. Not a KB Home development of Rancho Remote Canyon. Instead, large swaths of urban neighborhoods burned, many of them old and historic areas filled with expensive homes. It could turn out that the insurance companies simply cannot pay all claims.

Keep in mind that this weather event isn't over. Detailed weather models show not a drop of rain expected in the next two weeks (in Southern and Central California.) The current weather setup could produce several more Santa Ana wind events. Further out, multiple weather models are predicting a dry January through March.

State Farm had already dropped up to 70% of policies in the Palisades area, leaving people with the California Fair Plan or independent commercial policies as the only option.
https://www.businessinsider.com/los-ang ... cks-2025-1

[rvlife]

Hi,

My sister's house and car were casualties of the fires in California. Her homeowners insurance is with Mercury and her car insurance is with Geico. She has already made claims, but is there anything else I should advise her to do?

I had a total loss due to fire in 2011. My insurer was USAA.

Things I learned: if the fire is declared a Federal National Disaster ( my loss was) my temporary housing reimbursement went from 12 months to 24 months. Theory behind this is that everyone with a loss is trying to rebuild at the same time, there will be a run on contractors & supplies.

The money I received from my loss did not cover the demolition of the house foundation and removal of all the leftover debris. My house was 2500 sq ft and all brick/stone. That was tons of material to haul off. I got with my neighbors and we got bids for all of our houses together to get a discount. We got a better deal that way. One company brought in there equipment and had 5 jobs at once.

The insurance company maxed out our dwelling coverage, but offered us .75 on the dollar for contents if we would settle on the spot and close the claim. The alternative is that the insurance company will pay you 1/3 of your contents coverage up front to replace contents and then as you replace the contents and provide receipts you get the other 2/3.

The adjuster’s job is to close the claim, not maximize your pay out. I escalated several items to the supervisor level, as I didn’t agree with the value they placed on certain items.

The insurance company was not interested in my home video I had of all my contents, as they just payed out the max for dwelling and contents. To get the max for contents you have to itemize. I didn’t want to drag it out, so I took the .75 on the dollar for contents and was cut a check for dwelling & contents with in 2 weeks. My neighbor itemized and it took him 2 years tp close his claim. Was it the right thing to do, I don’t know. I just wanted to move on & I had teenagers at home during this time and just wanted life to get back to normal.

Looking back now, I wish I had got my children grief counseling. They lost everything and the house they were raised in.

If you have specific questions you can PM me. Good luck to your sister.

[Harmanic]

Sorry to hear about your sibling's loss. One thing to note is that the exact description of lost items can greatly affect the reimbursement that an insurance company will provide. There's an amazingly detailed Reddit post where an insurance adjuster describes how the description of an item can affect the reimbursement. One brief excerpt:

* If you said "toaster - $25" , we would have to be within -20% of that... so, we would find something that's pretty much dead-on $20.01.
* If you said "toaster- $200" , we'd kick it back and say NEED MORE INFO, because that's a ridiculous price for a toaster (with no other information given.)
* If you said "toaster, from Walmart" , you're getting that $4.88 one.
...
* If you said "High-end Toaster, Stainless Steel, Blue glowing power button" ... you might get $35-50 instead. We had to match all features that were listed.

Original URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinanc ... t/cziljy3/

Warning: there is pretty colorful language in the post; nonetheless, the content is very useful.

This makes me think that I should go around my house and take pictures of everything. I have a lot of receipts stored online, but many items are higher end and would be more costly to replace than standard versions.

[valleyrock]

I hate to say this but the insurance on the house is going to be very difficult. I imagine the auto insurance will be relatively easy. The car rental reimbursement may be tricky check policy on time frame on rental reimbursement. She is going to need to keep a detailed record of every correspondence with home insurance company. They will change adjusters on her, they will misrepresent coverage and most importantly they will lie to her, guarantee (you just can't believe people will lie to you during this terrible time). They will make life very difficult for her to wear her down. It is a cruel process when the insurance company is dealing with billions of dollars in losses. I have first hand experience with 7 figure insurance claim due to a hurricane. Took 2 years to settle, I am retired and relentless with access to lawyers/contractors. It become a full time job. She needs to be vigilant Take plenty of pictures and old pictures to justify contents. Use email as much as possible to keep a record. Frame all questions as tightly as possible force yes and no answers as much as possible. And never give up. If she is not up for the fight might consider a public adjuster (they take 10% of the claim) or lawyer who will take more. Sorry for her loss good luck.

Sadly, this depends on which insurance company, and the state.
In some states, the state Insurance Commissioner's office will brook no nonsense and a person will not need an attorney to collect according to a policy's terms. (Of course, even attorneys in these states are happy to help and usually will not inform you that you simply need to contact your state Insurance Commissioner's office at the hint of trouble or delay.) In other states, a third party can be needed to collect. I don't know about California.

Either way, attorneys are likely all over LA right now, promising to help collect.

Another way of looking at this is how the insurance companies often lobby to allow a person to buy insurance in another state. They'd love to add this later of complication. And this approach would eviscerate the effectiveness of the Insurance Commissioners' offices that really keep the insurance companies honest. It's kind of a populist thing in many states.

Valuable art or jewelry that is specified in an insurance policy is one thing. Toasters and utensils are another thing and pale compared to the value of a house. Get that claim in pronto.

[Watty]

Here is something else if there only partial damage to the house and the house will be repaired.

It was a different situation but we had relatively minor flood damage, maybe $20K in today's dollars, when we had a flood and our crawl space flooded. If the water was six inches higher it would have been major damage.

Something that worked well for us was that we had a structural engineer come in and inspect the house to determine if there was any damage which was not obvious and to write up sort of a prescription to repair the house.

We gave a copy of that to the adjuster and he really liked it since it showed that the damage was valid and we were not trying to scam the insurance company.

My impression was that the adjuster had seen so many people trying to inflate claims or do outright scams that when they found someone that was being honest that at least at least the one we had was willing to very reasonable and be as easy as possible to work with.

[johnegonpdx]

Start assembling as much proof of ownership & purchase of all big ticket personal items lost in the fire.
-recent photos / videos in and around the house showing the items
-purchase history / records from the companies where the purchases were made
-etc.

[barnaclebob]

If the home owners insurance company starts to give them problems they may want to hire an adjuster.

[bobn60014]

.........
Looking back now, I wish I had got my children grief counseling. They lost everything and the house they were raised in.

+1....and not just the kids.

[tj]

The state insurance commissioner just mentioned on the press conference that anyone who had a policy cancelled between October 9 and January 7, the insurance company "should do the right thing and cover the valued policyholder".

I doubt it,

[stan1]

Hi,

My sister's house and car were casualties of the fires in California. Her homeowners insurance is with Mercury and her car insurance is with Geico. She has already made claims, but is there anything else I should advise her to do?

I had a total loss due to fire in 2011. My insurer was USAA.

Things I learned: if the fire is declared a Federal National Disaster ( my loss was) my temporary housing reimbursement went from 12 months to 24 months. Theory behind this is that everyone with a loss is trying to rebuild at the same time, there will be a run on contractors & supplies.

The money I received from my loss did not cover the demolition of the house foundation and removal of all the leftover debris. My house was 2500 sq ft and all brick/stone. That was tons of material to haul off. I got with my neighbors and we got bids for all of our houses together to get a discount. We got a better deal that way. One company brought in there equipment and had 5 jobs at once.

The insurance company maxed out our dwelling coverage, but offered us .75 on the dollar for contents if we would settle on the spot and close the claim. The alternative is that the insurance company will pay you 1/3 of your contents coverage up front to replace contents and then as you replace the contents and provide receipts you get the other 2/3.

The adjuster’s job is to close the claim, not maximize your pay out. I escalated several items to the supervisor level, as I didn’t agree with the value they placed on certain items.

The insurance company was not interested in my home video I had of all my contents, as they just payed out the max for dwelling and contents. To get the max for contents you have to itemize. I didn’t want to drag it out, so I took the .75 on the dollar for contents and was cut a check for dwelling & contents with in 2 weeks. My neighbor itemized and it took him 2 years tp close his claim. Was it the right thing to do, I don’t know. I just wanted to move on & I had teenagers at home during this time and just wanted life to get back to normal.

Looking back now, I wish I had got my children grief counseling. They lost everything and the house they were raised in.

If you have specific questions you can PM me. Good luck to your sister.

Thanks, best advice so far.

[rvlife]

.........
Looking back now, I wish I had got my children grief counseling. They lost everything and the house they were raised in.

+1....and not just the kids.

My church had 9 families who lost there house in the 2011 fire in Texas. We would meet at the church every Wednesday for dinner for about a month and compare notes about what each different insurance company was telling everyone. It also gave us a chance to discuss how it impacted us individually. Very helpful