Pool pump question

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roamingzebra
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Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

Short version: How does the override function work on a variable speed pool pump?

Long version: I recently bought a Pentair Whisperflo VST Variable Speed Pump which replaces an older Pentair fixed speed pump.

My pool guy set it for 2800 RPM for seven hours (on Speed #1) which is fine. It will reduce my pool energy consumption by half compared to what I got from the older pump.

(Speed #2 and Speed #3 were left unprogrammed.)

But reading through the manual, I see there is an "override" function. I was expecting this to mean that while the pump was operating the scheduled program, I could change the speed temporarily, The intent would be to try out different speeds on my own without the pool guy knowing*. (He wouldn't know since once the override ends, it reverts to the scheduled programming.)

Anyway, that's how I thought it would work.

But playing around this morning, it seems the override actually means that you can only override one scheduled program (i.e., Speed #1) with another scheduled program (i.e., Speed #2 or Speed #3). But since the latter two both are zero in my case, no override of any kind is possible. More importantly, I can't just override the #1 Speed program using a speed of my own choosing for testing.

Am I doing something wrong, or is this truly the way it's supposed to work?

BTW, I searched the troublefreepool forums for an answer and found none. But they're pretty unamimous in the belief that lower pump speeds and shorter hours are fine for most pools and favor speeds lower than 2000 RPM. I really don't need to go the lower-speed route -- halving the energy costs is wonderful enough -- but a slight further lowering of the speed can reduce it to a quarter of my prior pool energy costs. I figure it would be worth a try.

* The pool guy is great but he prefers that his customers don't stray too far from his own ideas on pool operation.
BobTexas
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by BobTexas »

I got a new Pentair intelliflo a few months ago. Can you control yours through their app? I use that all the time.

I run mine on low - about 50% for 23 hours a day, and one hour at 2500
mgensler
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by mgensler »

There is less resistance in the pipes at lower pressures so we run our.pentair pump at 1400 rpm 24x7. We have it programmed to run at a higher speed for a couple of hours in the early morning to get the skimmers going.

You need to program the other numbers with an rpm, time to run, and the.sand timer symbol. So maybe setting 4 for 3000 rpm for 2 hours. Once you set that up, you can tap the number and the pump will run at the set speed for the time specified. Once the time runs out it will revert to the regular program. If your pentair interface is like mine, it's not intuitive.
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roamingzebra
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

mgensler wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:40 pm You need to program the other numbers with an rpm, time to run, and the.sand timer symbol. So maybe setting 4 for 3000 rpm for 2 hours. Once you set that up, you can tap the number and the pump will run at the set speed for the time specified. Once the time runs out it will revert to the regular program. If your pentair interface is like mine, it's not intuitive.
Ah, I see how it works, thanks.
Jeepergeo
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by Jeepergeo »

Why spend the money on a variable speed pool pump and then operate it at just one set speed?

The override could be useful if the pump is normally running at a slow speed for regular filtering and then you decide to use the spa that needs a higher speed to optimize the jets. Push the override button and enjoy the spa, and the pump reverts to the main program on the next restart.
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roamingzebra
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

Jeepergeo wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 7:56 pm Why spend the money on a variable speed pool pump and then operate it at just one set speed?
Exactly. My old fixed-speed pump was giving out and the pool guy made an offer to install a new one and the price seemed reasonable. I hadn't realized it would be variable speed, but I was happy that it was. Then I saw how he programed it and I'm thinking wha? I'm happy about the energy savings but we can do better.

I'd rather experiment with different settings "in secret", but unfortunately, I find that the sand timer symbol (indicating a temporary run time) that mgensler was referring to is not part of my model.

I'll find a way to experiment, but it won't be as easy as I was hoping.
johnnyc321
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by johnnyc321 »

We had a pentair variable speed at our old house and I used YouTube to learn how to use it. There’s a ton of pool guys on there and likely a video for your pump.
SnowBog
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by SnowBog »

Have a variable speed pump as well, think its a Pentair, but not sure the model...

Best bet is to find your manual - in paper if you have it, or online, and see what it has to say. Or try a source like https://www.troublefreepool.com/forums/.

If its anything like ours, it has different "modes" (or types). I can set mine to an RPM - like it sounds like you have. I can set it to a particular "flow" (gallons per minute), such as 40 (which will use the "variable" speed to attempt to maintain that flow as the filter/pressure builds up).

I use the later by default. I figured how much gallons per minute I need to turn over 2x+ our pool water daily with the pump running overnight and set the "flow" accordingly to run after hours. When the pool is not in use, that's what we leave it at. When the pool is in use, I set it to run constantly (again using flow by default).

With the "flow" option, that take advantage of the "variable" speed - and is a good reminder/indicator of when you need to backwash. When the filter is clean, it will run at X RPM's to maintain your "flow" (GPM). Pay attention to the RPM's needed to maintain the same "flow" (GPM) when the filter needs backwashing - it will be higher... You can check the pump to see how high the RPM's are getting (aka how close you are to needing to backwash). Personally, I can now "hear" the difference - so it's easy to know to go backwash when needed.

For mine, there are 4 "buttons" [1-4] corresponding to different "programs" that you can change. One of those buttons is my "high speed" setting (RPM - but can't recall) that I use for backwashing, vacuuming, etc. The others all do something else, but I don't use them...

When you go into the "menu" you can change the "programs", including those 1-4 "buttons." Personally, I use #6 as my "overnight" schedule - setting the "mode" (or type or whatever its called) to Flow with my desired input, and with my desired start and stop time. I use #5 as my "daytime" schedule - which is basically the same as 6 except it includes the hours we'd use the pool (so the water is filtering while we are in it). I "disable" #5 when we aren't swimming (and/or it doesn't need to run "extra" such as after a storm/etc.).
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snackdog
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by snackdog »

You can run at fairly low speeds 24/7 which may be better for the pump than daily start/stops. I have Jandy equipment but run the pump at 2250rpm 23 hours per day then at 2750rpm with the spa pump on and spillover mode to mix the water in the spa pump pipes and the spa with the pool. I have a heat pump pool/spa heater outside so I want to make sure water flows through it all winter to prevent pipe freezing.
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whodidntante
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by whodidntante »

While we come in clutch while Vanguard customer service is closed, I'm less hopeful that we are better than reading the manual on this one.
Topic Author
roamingzebra
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

johnnyc321 wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 9:19 pm We had a pentair variable speed at our old house and I used YouTube to learn how to use it. There’s a ton of pool guys on there and likely a video for your pump.
Yeah, I've watched every YouTube video ever produced on VS pumps, even on brands that are not Pentair! None of them addresss the override feature.

I'm wondering if I'm reading too much into the manual. The subsection is not called "Override Feature" but rather "Operating the Pump While Running". Here's what it says:
Pressing any of the SPEED Buttons ("1", "2", "3" or Quick Clean) while the pump is running will act as a temporary override. The pump will run the speed and duration programmed for that button. Once completed the pump will return to the appropriate point in the programmed schedule.

Note: If schedule speeds are adjusted while the pump is running the pump will run the entered speed for the rest of the program's duration, but will not save the adjustments.
Badly written, in my opinion, and my initial observation had been that the word "appropriate" is doing a lot of work in that first paragraph. I couldn't figure out if it meant that after completion of the 1-hour (or whatever) overrride cycle, it would resume the remainder of the 8-hour (or whatever) Speed 1 program that had been overrriden. That is, there would still be a completed 8-hour run-time in addition to the 1-hour overrride cycle. The alternative being that the 1-hour-override subtracts from the 8-hour cycle. I would rather have the latter. I'm trying to save energy, not consume more.

But I never got that far in answering the question since I was not able to perform an overrride at all. And I tried every button imaginable. That's why I started thinking an overrride can only be done if you have the other two buttons (Speed #2 and #3) programmed and you choose one of those for the override. I haven't tried that yet because I'm still unclear what happens when the override is completed. My understanding is that once you've programmed all three buttons (Speed #1, #2 and #3), they will all be active and run consecutively. Obviously I don't want all 3 programs to be run. I merely want to be able to choose one of them as an occasional override and then have it go back into "hibernation", only woken up when I need to use it as an override.
goblue100
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by goblue100 »

roamingzebra wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:24 am
Badly written, in my opinion, and my initial observation had been that the word "appropriate" is doing a lot of work in that first paragraph. I couldn't figure out if it meant that after completion of the 1-hour (or whatever) overrride cycle, it would resume the remainder of the 8-hour (or whatever) Speed 1 program that had been overrriden. That is, there would still be a completed 8-hour run-time in addition to the 1-hour overrride cycle. The alternative being that the 1-hour-override subtracts from the 8-hour cycle. I would rather have the latter. I'm trying to save energy, not consume more.
I'm not a Pentair expert, but I suspect it is the former of your two guesses. If you have the main program setup for normal daily usage or daily non usage, and then have a big party with lots of people, you need more runtime, not less. I would suspect that is the intention.
roamingzebra wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:24 am But I never got that far in answering the question since I was not able to perform an overrride at all. And I tried every button imaginable. That's why I started thinking an overrride can only be done if you have the other two buttons (Speed #2 and #3) programmed and you choose one of those for the override. I haven't tried that yet because I'm still unclear what happens when the override is completed. My understanding is that once you've programmed all three buttons (Speed #1, #2 and #3), they will all be active and run consecutively. Obviously I don't want all 3 programs to be run. I merely want to be able to choose one of them as an occasional override and then have it go back into "hibernation", only woken up when I need to use it as an override.
So take an hour off your primary program, and set 2 and 3 up for an hour at different RPM's. Same total runtime and you can see what happens at the different RPM.
Edit: Reread the second part that I quoted. I can see where you wouldn't want all three programs to run consecutively. My guess is you specify which programs run at each start time, but that is only a guess.
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SnowBog
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by SnowBog »

roamingzebra wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:24 am
johnnyc321 wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 9:19 pm We had a pentair variable speed at our old house and I used YouTube to learn how to use it. There’s a ton of pool guys on there and likely a video for your pump.
Yeah, I've watched every YouTube video ever produced on VS pumps, even on brands that are not Pentair! None of them addresss the override feature.

I'm wondering if I'm reading too much into the manual. The subsection is not called "Override Feature" but rather "Operating the Pump While Running". Here's what it says:
Pressing any of the SPEED Buttons ("1", "2", "3" or Quick Clean) while the pump is running will act as a temporary override. The pump will run the speed and duration programmed for that button. Once completed the pump will return to the appropriate point in the programmed schedule.

Note: If schedule speeds are adjusted while the pump is running the pump will run the entered speed for the rest of the program's duration, but will not save the adjustments.
Badly written, in my opinion, and my initial observation had been that the word "appropriate" is doing a lot of work in that first paragraph. I couldn't figure out if it meant that after completion of the 1-hour (or whatever) overrride cycle, it would resume the remainder of the 8-hour (or whatever) Speed 1 program that had been overrriden. That is, there would still be a completed 8-hour run-time in addition to the 1-hour overrride cycle. The alternative being that the 1-hour-override subtracts from the 8-hour cycle. I would rather have the latter. I'm trying to save energy, not consume more.

But I never got that far in answering the question since I was not able to perform an overrride at all. And I tried every button imaginable. That's why I started thinking an overrride can only be done if you have the other two buttons (Speed #2 and #3) programmed and you choose one of those for the override. I haven't tried that yet because I'm still unclear what happens when the override is completed. My understanding is that once you've programmed all three buttons (Speed #1, #2 and #3), they will all be active and run consecutively. Obviously I don't want all 3 programs to be run. I merely want to be able to choose one of them as an occasional override and then have it go back into "hibernation", only woken up when I need to use it as an override.
Again, not sure if my pump works the same... FWIW mine has 4 buttons [1 - 4]. Not sure if they are called "override" buttons... But they work (on mine) by "manually" running a specific "program" (on mine, configurable in the menu).

As an example, here a partial setup of mine:
  • #4 is essentially your "quick clean", runs at a high speed RPM (not max, but high) - let's say 2800 as an example (don't remember)
  • #5 (no button, but set as a "scheduled" program) is set to "flow" with 40 [Gallons Per Minute], between 8 AM and 8 PM. This is normally "disabled" unless we are swimming that day.
  • #6 is the same as #5, but runs 8 PM - 8 AM.
So my "default" is to set to "flow" of 40 GPM at night (based on the schedule). Aka let it be "variable" speed (as pressure changes), to maintain a constant flow.

If I go hit one of the "override buttons" it will change to whatever that button says to do, until the next scheduled event. . For example, if I hit #4 at 9 AM, it will run at 2800 RPM until the next schedule - which for me is 8 PM, where it switches back to whatever is scheduled for that time (in my case 40 GPM). If I hit #4 at 7:59 PM, it only runs 1 minute and then my schedule sets it back to normal.

If yours works like mine, if your default is X RPM, you could set one of the "override" buttons to something different (lower RPM, variable speed probably with a "flow" setting). Hitting it would temporarily change to your settings, until the scheduled program kicks in (which will then run whatever is programmed for that time).

Assuming yours - like mine - let's you set different programs/schedules, you can decide what you want it to do at different times of the day. (Unfortunately mine doesn't let me pick different days... We usually only swim Friday - Sunday, so I'd like the schedule to be different those days... Not an option for me...)
testing321
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by testing321 »

Are any of you on time of use electric rates? That would be a big factor in setting the schedule where I live.
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illumination
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by illumination »

There's no real point in having a variable speed pool pump and running it at 2800rpm at all times.

The strategy is you run at a much lower speed (I run mine around 600rpm) and you run it for longer time periods. It's basically then using the same electricity as a 100 watt lightbulb. It might take some math and trial and error.

The person that set this up for you should know this, but they don't really care about your utility bill. He just wants a customer that's not complaining about a green pool.

I will say the user interface that's built into mine (Pentair IntelliFlo, no app) is AWFUL. Just very confusing menu trees, I would watch a few videos on your particular model to get a feel. I've had mine for about 10+ years and I still get confused by it.
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roamingzebra
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

SnowBog wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 12:14 pm If I go hit one of the "override buttons" it will change to whatever that button says to do, until the next scheduled event. . For example, if I hit #4 at 9 AM, it will run at 2800 RPM until the next schedule - which for me is 8 PM, where it switches back to whatever is scheduled for that time (in my case 40 GPM).
^ That is what I want to avoid.

My main program runs 10 am to 5 pm. If I would override at any point during that 7-hour timeframe and it ran till the next scheduled event, that next-scheduled event would be 10 am!

My Pentair seems to have fewer functions than what most of you have. That said, since the manual says it has an override I want to figure out how to use it.

I'm happy with the pump regardless though since 7 hours at 2800 RPM saves a lot of money compared to 7 hours at 3450 RPM, the speed of my previous pump. And the 7-hour timeframe falls within the super off-peak electric rates.

If I can't figure out the override, I will probably change the scheduled 2800 RPM to 2000 RPM. Pool guy probably won't even notice. And if I like how that works, I can move it down even further and maybe program the other two buttons. I just don't want pool guy to have a heart attack right away.
mgensler
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by mgensler »

Just make sure you are filtering all of your water once in a 24 hour period. There should be a graph in the manual that shows you gallons per minute at different speeds. You'll need to know how many gallons your pool holds to figure the correct number. Those of us running pumps at low rpm over 24 hours are only saving money due to less resistance in the pipes at lower speeds. We still have to filter the water thoroughly to keep it clean.
SnowBog
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by SnowBog »

roamingzebra wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:11 pm If I can't figure out the override, I will probably change the scheduled 2800 RPM to 2000 RPM. Pool guy probably won't even notice. And if I like how that works, I can move it down even further and maybe program the other two buttons. I just don't want pool guy to have a heart attack right away.
Just a reminder - the pool guy works for you... :wink:

I'm not sure I'd be concerned if they "notice" or not... It's your pump, your utility bill, and you are paying them to service things for you. Maybe it's not his job to help you optimize your pump settings... But unless your settings are such that you make his job harder (like you turn it down too low to not cycle the water enough to keep the pool clean - and then blame them), what he thinks shouldn't matter IMHO...
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roamingzebra
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

mgensler wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:28 pm Just make sure you are filtering all of your water once in a 24 hour period. There should be a graph in the manual that shows you gallons per minute at different speeds. You'll need to know how many gallons your pool holds to figure the correct number. Those of us running pumps at low rpm over 24 hours are only saving money due to less resistance in the pipes at lower speeds. We still have to filter the water thoroughly to keep it clean.
I found this great site: https://www.jandy.com/en/pool-pump-savings

It's a pool pump savings calculator.

For my pool I get these turnovers:

2800 RPM = 1.89 turnovers
2000 RPM = 1.35 turnovers
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snackdog
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by snackdog »

roamingzebra wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 8:53 pm
mgensler wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:28 pm Just make sure you are filtering all of your water once in a 24 hour period. There should be a graph in the manual that shows you gallons per minute at different speeds. You'll need to know how many gallons your pool holds to figure the correct number. Those of us running pumps at low rpm over 24 hours are only saving money due to less resistance in the pipes at lower speeds. We still have to filter the water thoroughly to keep it clean.
I found this great site: https://www.jandy.com/en/pool-pump-savings

It's a pool pump savings calculator.

For my pool I get these turnovers:

2800 RPM = 1.89 turnovers
2000 RPM = 1.35 turnovers
Turnovers is not critical - you just need to move enough water to keep your pool clean and that can vary enormously depending on how many people (and animals) use it and how much debris falls in.

My VS pump runs 24 hours/d for a little under $1.50/day. Tweaking that to save a dime or two per day doesn't really move the dial for me. You may be overthinking your need to program a lot of different speeds.
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roamingzebra
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

snackdog wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:00 am Turnovers is not critical - you just need to move enough water to keep your pool clean and that can vary enormously depending on how many people (and animals) use it and how much debris falls in.

My VS pump runs 24 hours/d for a little under $1.50/day. Tweaking that to save a dime or two per day doesn't really move the dial for me. You may be overthinking your need to program a lot of different speeds.
You may be right.

If nothing else, learning about all this upfront will allow me to monitor the pool guy and see if he changes the settings based on season or other conditions. If he doesn't, I would feel legitimate asking about it.

I don't communicate that often with him for three reasons: (1) his English is not good, (2) he "tolerates" free-thinking customers but doesn't encourage them, and (3) he comes at the crack of dawn when I'm still sleeping. So I prefer to have a lot of substance in my conversations with him.

If he sounds like a bad pool guy, he is not. He's honest, hard-working, inexpensive and reliable. So I try not to give him too much grief. ;)
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by Valuethinker »

snackdog wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:00 am
roamingzebra wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 8:53 pm

I found this great site: https://www.jandy.com/en/pool-pump-savings

It's a pool pump savings calculator.

For my pool I get these turnovers:

2800 RPM = 1.89 turnovers
2000 RPM = 1.35 turnovers
Turnovers is not critical - you just need to move enough water to keep your pool clean and that can vary enormously depending on how many people (and animals) use it and how much debris falls in.

My VS pump runs 24 hours/d for a little under $1.50/day. Tweaking that to save a dime or two per day doesn't really move the dial for me. You may be overthinking your need to program a lot of different speeds.
If OP is in California, at peak hours they may be paying 4x your electricity price? Sort of 3x in Connecticut or lower NYS I think?
zeeke42
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by zeeke42 »

What does your pool guy do, and how much does it cost? I run my own pool for a total cost of about $200/yr.

I can't help with how to set it up on your individual pump, but I run mine it at 1000 RPM baseline, which only consumes about 70 watts. This is more than the minimum (~600-700 RPM) to close the flow switch on my salt cell. Then I crank it up to 2800 or so for 30 minutes at 9AM to skim off leaves and stuff that fell in overnight. Then run it at 2000 RPM (~200W) during the day to keep skimming a bit and keep the water moving during times we'd be in the pool (people like the return jets to be going). I do another 2800 skim blast in the afternoon, back to 2000, then down to 1000 at sunset.

The pool is cleaner than it was with 8 hours on the single speed, and it uses much less electricity.
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roamingzebra
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by roamingzebra »

zeeke42 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:40 am What does your pool guy do, and how much does it cost? I run my own pool for a total cost of about $200/yr.
I let the pool guy do everything I don't want to do -- mainly vacuuming, cleaning the filter and maintaining the equipment. He monitors the chemicals but I supply most of the chlorine. We've kind of split up the duties.

Your cost is much lower than mine but mine is much lower than the average for my area.
I can't help with how to set it up on your individual pump, but I run mine it at 1000 RPM baseline, which only consumes about 70 watts. This is more than the minimum (~600-700 RPM) to close the flow switch on my salt cell. Then I crank it up to 2800 or so for 30 minutes at 9AM to skim off leaves and stuff that fell in overnight. Then run it at 2000 RPM (~200W) during the day to keep skimming a bit and keep the water moving during times we'd be in the pool (people like the return jets to be going). I do another 2800 skim blast in the afternoon, back to 2000, then down to 1000 at sunset.
Yes, I've read countless stories like your's and it's definitely interesting how such long run times can be energy-efficient. Although I like the simplicity of one or two speeds, I would program all three buttons if it made sense (and if I had sone some prior experimentation). I do have concerns about the longevity of a pump running at/near 24 hours, but there is no consensus on that. (FWIW, my single-speed pump running 7 hours a day lasted 14 years.)

The relevant factors for me are:
  • Est. 17,000 gallon pool
  • Trees and shrubs around the pool mean floating/fallen leaves (though not all the time), and pollen during, well, the pollen season
  • Pool is attached to heater, but heater not being used
  • Pool actually not being used for swimming for the past few years. it's now being used for its "looks" only. That may seem a bit extravagant but it's part of a beautiful backyard set-up
  • Punp run only during off-peak hours
zeeke42
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by zeeke42 »

The reason such long run times are more efficient is the power consumption scales with the square of the speed. So, half speed uses 1/4 the power. My pump uses only 70 watts at 1000RPM vs 1500W at full blast. So, 24 hours at 1000RPM uses the same energy as 1 hour at full speed.

If you have time of use rates, it's trickier to design a program. 1000RPM is great for turning over water through the filter, but the skimmers don't do much. If you want your pool to look nice during the day, you're going to need some more speed than that to clear leaves and pollen. I have a valve that blends the floor drains and skimmer. When I moved to variable speed, I biased it as much toward the skimmer as I could without outrunning the skimmer and sucking air at full speed. This helped give more skimming at lower powers.

I bought a Maytronics robot and absolutely love it. It takes care of all the vacuuming and brushing the tile. Just toss it in the water and press the button.
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Re: Pool pump question

Post by SnowBog »

zeeke42 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 8:00 am I bought a Maytronics robot and absolutely love it. It takes care of all the vacuuming and brushing the tile. Just toss it in the water and press the button.
I tried out a few, but settled on the Polaris - and love it! Pool never looked better than this past year. The one I has includes a "light" remote that can "control" and/or "recall" the bot to come to the edge and be retrieved, and had a base rated for outdoor use (was surprised how many weren't).
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