Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

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mattyflatbush
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by mattyflatbush »

My partner and I successfully delivered our remaining 0% gift I Bonds (10k principal each) yesterday, the same day we purchased our 2024 annual limits. The plan was to buy one more round of gifts today at the 1.3% fixed rate and then redeem our delivered 0% gifts after the five day waiting period partially to help finance today's new purchase, but now I don't know what to believe. Or do.

Getting "locked out" for a year or more is less than ideal since we just started building our I Bond holdings in 2022 and have a ways to go before meeting our target position.
tipswatcher wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:41 pm This is at least the second time I have heard of this new approach from TreasuryDirect, except in this case it is clearer that TD wants to clear out all gift-box purchases in two months. (Nearly impossible to pull that off, in my opinion.) But today's new message also is: You MUST deliver your gift-box purchases and then be banned from buying I Bonds for the same number of years. That is almost too weird to be believable.

But ... if TD raises the annual purchase limit, the effect would be lessened, I assume.
Last edited by mattyflatbush on Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stevewolfe
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by stevewolfe »

mattyflatbush wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:59 pm Getting "locked out" for a year or more is less than ideal since we just started building our I Bond holdings in 2022 and have a ways to go before meeting our target position.
My understanding in the lockout would be for your individual account(s). You would still be able to purchase I Bonds through trusts / other entities (if you have those accounts).
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mattyflatbush
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by mattyflatbush »

stevewolfe wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:24 pm My understanding in the lockout would be for your individual account(s). You would still be able to purchase I Bonds through trusts / other entities (if you have those accounts).
Yes. I own an S-Corp (purchased the $10,000 limit yesterday) and we will have trusts by the end of this year when we finalize our estate planning. I'm leaning towards buying two more gifts at the 1.3% rate today and taking a wait and see approach for delivery. We'll redeem our gifted 0% bonds as we'll need those funds after purchasing the new gifts.

If we are "locked out" next year, we'll buy another round of gifts in addition to purchasing in our trusts and corporation. 1.2% would still be very attractive and could even go back up or higher at the May reset.
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LuvBogle
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by LuvBogle »

evancox10 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:42 pm
tipswatcher wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:41 pm

This is at least the second time I have heard of this new approach from TreasuryDirect, except in this case it is clearer that TD wants to clear out all gift-box purchases in two months. (Nearly impossible to pull that off, in my opinion.) But today's new message also is: You MUST deliver your gift-box purchases and then be banned from buying I Bonds for the same number of years. That is almost too weird to be believable.

But ... if TD raises the annual purchase limit, the effect would be lessened, I assume.
What happens if you don't deliver the gift bonds by the end of the year?

ETA : just called in and asked if there are any changes coming to the gift bonds program. The representative replied with her own question about whether I'd received an email encouraging me to deliver gift bonds. I said no but heard others had. She then said they are just encouraging people to make deliveries since the recipient is the sole legal owner of the bond. Didn't breathe a word about limits, upcoming changes, etc.
Need to have a business account, trust, and reliable friends to buy into....and do a lot of $25 transactions to see how the system reacts. Go figure!
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Agitated_Analyst
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Agitated_Analyst »

stevewolfe wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:08 pm I called and spoke to a Treasury Direct representative today. I asked the rep about our situation - we've already delivered the $10,000 in gifts from one spouse to the other, but we have an additional 5 years worth of gifts to deliver - what should we do? She placed me on hold for a few minutes go talk to a supervisor and confirm what to do our our case. Here's what she said after a 10 minute or so wait:

- Yes, we should deliver the bonds by end of year.
- Yes, there are changes coming to the gift box, they will be in effect on 1/1/2025.
- If we deliver 5 years of gift bonds now, we will not be able to purchase again for 5 years.
- I asked if our accounts would indicate that we can't purchase again until year 2030 or have some other indication that we can't purchase? She said no, that she's not aware that there would be an indication marked on our account, it would just decline the purchase if we tried to make one prior.
- The call is associated with our account in the notes as well as the guidance given noted,
- Additional communication is coming soon, but no ETA on when. She reiterated that they want the gift boxes empty by 1/1/2025.

So a little bit of a different answer than I've seen so far in that delivering X years would result in an X year lock out from purchasing additional...

Steve
Thank you for the information. This makes sense to me. I was already going off the assumption that the major changes wouldn't happen until January 1st. I was basing this solely on the fact that not everyone has received an email yet. Your information now gives me more conviction in that assumption. My wife and I will deliver our remaining gifts by the end of next week. I'm not surprised this situation won't be a "free lunch". However, if TD decides to limit future contributions based on gifts given this year, that seems reasonable to me.

It seems to me that this situation is becoming more clear (but the following is still just my speculation). TD wants to eliminate the gift loophole. In order to do this, however, they need everyone to deliver their outstanding gifts. The people delivering gifts in 2024 will gain liquidity of their assets more quickly, but will lose contributions for a certain number of future years. This seems to be a fair tradeoff. The one part I don't get is why they're being so vague. I understand they probably don't want people loading up on I-bonds in 2024. However, if they're planning on limiting future contributions due to 2024 gifts, why not just announce that? Doing so would naturally tamp down on people exploiting the situation.
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SnowBog
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by SnowBog »

HerrRogan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:53 pm Because I would have left them in the gift box until the fixed rate dropped. And continued to make more purchases until that happened.
evancox10 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:48 pm

Who says it's a penalty? You've effectively pulled forward years worth of purchases such that they start earning interest now rather than years into the future. It's hard to say that meets the definition of a penalty.
Yep...

Why would I willingly trade two years at 0% and one year at 0.4% vs the next three years at market rates? Assuming Nov. rate is 1.2% as predicted, that's better than the gifts I delivered...

Not to mention I used gifts to buy "extra" I Bonds than otherwise allowed. My intent was to deliver them in the future, after we retire. In other words, I was "pre-purchasing" them before their "planned" date. I don't/didn't have a problem with the gift "filing up" my purchase limit. But I do have a problem with losing the ability to choose when that happens... If TD is asking us to deliver them ASAP, that's seems to be their problem, but locking me out of future purchases makes it my problem...

I'm hoping this is just more bad/partial info... Again, I don't think the people answering calls are fully informed - as we keep getting different answers. This feels like either speculation or logical assumptions on their part. And maybe it's even a calculated PR move, telling people that delivering gifts will block them from future purchases might prevent people from "loading up" even more gifts. Even if that never actually happens...
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ObiQuiet
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by ObiQuiet »

Really? I dont think our assumption should be that a limit formerly applied to the recipients will now apply retroactively to the buyers. Other assumptions, ok, but that one is a stretch IMO.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

evancox10 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:42 pm
tipswatcher wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:41 pm

This is at least the second time I have heard of this new approach from TreasuryDirect, except in this case it is clearer that TD wants to clear out all gift-box purchases in two months. (Nearly impossible to pull that off, in my opinion.) But today's new message also is: You MUST deliver your gift-box purchases and then be banned from buying I Bonds for the same number of years. That is almost too weird to be believable.

But ... if TD raises the annual purchase limit, the effect would be lessened, I assume.
What happens if you don't deliver the gift bonds by the end of the year?

ETA : just called in and asked if there are any changes coming to the gift bonds program. The representative replied with her own question about whether I'd received an email encouraging me to deliver gift bonds. I said no but heard others had. She then said they are just encouraging people to make deliveries since the recipient is the sole legal owner of the bond. Didn't breathe a word about limits, upcoming changes, etc.
People must be passing on before they deliver the gifts, creating a mess. It’s fair to deliver all gifts and just not purchase for succeeding years. Hopefully due to the volume of calls they will publish some definitive explanation soon.
SnowBog
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by SnowBog »

ObiQuiet wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 6:02 pm Really? I dont think our assumption should be that a limit formerly applied to the recipients will now apply retroactively to the buyers. Other assumptions, ok, but that one is a stretch IMO.
I think you are reading that backwards...

If spouse A buys gift for spouse B and delivers the gift to spouse B - it's spouse B that would be prevented from purchasing as they'd be "over their limit". The only impact to the "buyer" is if the spouse reciprocated, as spouse A would have received more than their annual limit.

FWIW - this is how I had always assumed/understood the process was supposed to work. And why we had planned to "deliver" the gifts in future years - years in which we didn't plan to buy any (and no more than one (1) $10k [purchase value] per year - again within the original limits.

But others have attempted to point out that was never actually how things worked, nor how the language was written...

Regardless, where I have a hard time accepting this "new potential outcome" is they are telling us to deliver our bonds - have been telling people there "is no negative impact for doing so" - and then only now some people are hearing that doing so will block future years of purchases.

IANAL - but I have a hard time understanding how they could do that... If I purchase too many "normally", the excess is refunded, they don't let me buy too many and then prevent me from buying them in the future...

But clear as mud... So far, it seems one of the following will occur:
  • "Hall pass" with no negative impacts of delivering gifts
  • Failure to deliver gifts might see them forcibly delivered and/or refunded [if they are attempting to end the "gift box" idea/program
  • Delivery will block "future" purchases for X number of years for the recipient, where X is the amount over the annual limit delivered
  • Nothing - we are assuming changes are coming - and things continue as they have been, it was just a gentle "reminder" email for people to deliver gifts - and we are reading into it more than ever intended...
  • <shrug> I'm sure we'll have more things we can add to the list as people call/ask and continue to get different answers...
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Jaylat »

I’m starting to think that calling in to request clarification of these issues may be counterproductive. TD obviously hasn’t thought things through and the response you get will depend on who answers the phone. And even if you do get a definitive answer, it’s only verbal and can be denied later.

My concern is that, in order to assuage callers, TD may think up some cockamamie scheme to make it look like they knew what they were doing all along. Any “clarification” they provide will likely only restrict our rights in the future.
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ObiQuiet
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by ObiQuiet »

SnowBog wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 6:43 pm I think you are reading that backwards...
Yes, you're right. Can't say it sounds reasonable that way either, though. For spouses in knowledge of what each other is doing, I suppose. Preventing person B from buying their own because person A bought some for them is also a weird position to be in.

Eliminating the gift box removes that, of course, so it would be a middle-time situation.

BTW, Eager for FIRE's signature admonition to " LIVE 'Outside the Box' " is apropos for this thread. Wonder if that is intentional...
blortchplop
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by blortchplop »

The gift box trick was always a hack. Entity accounts are where it's at.
Vivbet
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Vivbet »

Just delivered 5 years worth of ibonds and my spouse did the same for me. I don’t expect to be penalized in any way for following TD’s own instructions and helping them accommodate to their upcoming changes.
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anon_investor
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by anon_investor »

Not seeing any real benefit deliverying now if we don't need access. We will wait.
Eager for FIRE
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Eager for FIRE »

I’m thinking I’m gonna deliver the rest of mine very soon.

Having immediate access to sell partial or all for any reason is a huge unexpected benefit.

I’d be disappointed if either the buyer or seller gets restricted for X years (hopefully less if $10k limit is increased).

So long as they don’t cancel and refund our $ I can’t complain too much, given the immediate access to 100% still growing now.
If they’re ending the gift loophole of stacking up early-invested gifts, delivering them all now with free access to sell at will or keep them in the intended gift recipient’s account doesn’t seem much of a penalty.

And if the fixed rate spikes, I’ll use entity options to buy during the prohibited years in the meantime.

🤷🏼‍♂️
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matt5728
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by matt5728 »

Treasury Direct published November rates already: fixed rate 1.20%, composite 3.11%. Exactly as predicted.
Source: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/savings-bonds/i-bonds/
need403bhelp
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by need403bhelp »

Any reason to do anything if you did NOT receive the email asking to deliver all gift I bonds ASAP?

I would assume they would send something out or make a press release before they actually turn off the gift box, no?

I'm happy to deliver our gift boxes but not sure I want to do so necessarily if there is a penalty...
Eager for FIRE
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Eager for FIRE »

Just a hunch that it doesn’t matter whether you got the email or not.

As others have posted, TD reserves the right to alter policy & take action as they see fit for policy violations-whatever those are. And whatever their reason I believe everyone will be forced to deliver all gifts prior to Jan 1, 2025 with the same potential penalties. (Hopefully None!! Or just a 1 time 1 year block.) Or else they will manually deliver them.

I’m guessing their plan is to eliminate the stacking loophole and headaches it caused them. Delivering all gifts now was intended more to avoid a late bottleneck and to not encourage adding more stacked gifts before the window closes. If they keep the gift option at all, it seems likely they’ll just deliver new gifts immediately when purchased/gifted. No more Gift Box Limbo display in the gifter’s account.

For me Entity accounts could still allow purchases if I got locked out for a while.

The current GUESS of the penalty of being prohibited x every year you exceeded some limit seemed mild vs. instant total access to years of gifted IBonds locked away in my trading partner’s gift box

Hopefully I have no regrets.
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jstorz
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by jstorz »

Just got the email, and it contains a link to this page. No additional information (yet?) from what I can tell:

https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
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Agitated_Analyst
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Agitated_Analyst »

jstorz wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:14 am Just got the email, and it contains a link to this page. No additional information (yet?) from what I can tell:

https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
I just received my first email as well. I guess round two of the emails have officially been released.
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UrsaTaurus
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by UrsaTaurus »

Agitated_Analyst wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:28 am
jstorz wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:14 am Just got the email, and it contains a link to this page. No additional information (yet?) from what I can tell:

https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
I just received my first email as well. I guess round two of the emails have officially been released.
I was just going to post this morning asking whether anyone had received an email after the first wave. I was beginning to wonder whether TD was having second thoughts about the wording of the email, but I guess not. I was included in this morning's second wave as well.
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Chip Munk
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Chip Munk »

anon_investor wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:19 am Not seeing any real benefit deliverying now if we don't need access. We will wait.
Treasury Direct has really shot themselves in the foot if their goal is to get people to empty their gift boxes but is now telling some callers that they will put people on double secret probation for doing so.
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Agitated_Analyst
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Agitated_Analyst »

UrsaTaurus wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:38 am
Agitated_Analyst wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:28 am

I just received my first email as well. I guess round two of the emails have officially been released.
I was just going to post this morning asking whether anyone had received an email after the first wave. I was beginning to wonder whether TD was having second thoughts about the wording of the email, but I guess not. I was included in this morning's second wave as well.
My wife received it as well. I wonder if this is wave 2 of 2. Is there anyone who still hasn't received it?
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FireAway
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by FireAway »

I just got my notice today.

One thing I'm unclear on - what possible penalty could there be for NOT delivering the bonds until this confusion is cleared up? Why not wait until you really know what the situation is, or at least wait until end of year. What advantage does anyone see in acting NOW?
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Mrs.Daisy »

Agitated_Analyst wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:53 am
My wife received it as well. I wonder if this is wave 2 of 2. Is there anyone who still hasn't received it?
I didn't receive it, but my gift bonds are only about 2 weeks old. I don't know if there will be more rounds of emails coming to catch newer people.
rab
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by rab »

Agitated_Analyst wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:53 am
UrsaTaurus wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:38 am

I was just going to post this morning asking whether anyone had received an email after the first wave. I was beginning to wonder whether TD was having second thoughts about the wording of the email, but I guess not. I was included in this morning's second wave as well.
My wife received it as well. I wonder if this is wave 2 of 2. Is there anyone who still hasn't received it?
I still have not received the email (and I checked my spam folder), although my wife got it in the first wave. However, I did deliver all of our gifts (me to her and her to me) last week, so maybe I won't ever get the email now that I don't have any more bonds in my gift box?
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by life_force_prana »

I nor my wife have received this email from TD that everyone is talking about. I am also not sure what all this commotion is about, is it because folks are buying their annual 10K individually and also buying in gift box another 10K in same year for a future year and holding the gift box 10K to deliver in future year (a year in which they would not buy the 10K directly?), and now the email from TD is asking them to deliver the 10K gift in same year they also bought directly so double dipping the 10K limit in same calendar year?

So its like each spouse buys 10K directly in 2024 and another 10K in gift box for total of 40K in 2024, and now they get an email from TD saying dleiver the gifts so they have 20K each purchased for 2024?
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Agitated_Analyst
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Agitated_Analyst »

life_force_prana wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:07 am I nor my wife have received this email from TD that everyone is talking about. I am also not sure what all this commotion is about, is it because folks are buying their annual 10K individually and also buying in gift box another 10K in same year for a future year and holding the gift box 10K to deliver in future year (a year in which they would not buy the 10K directly?), and now the email from TD is asking them to deliver the 10K gift in same year they also bought directly so double dipping the 10K limit in same calendar year?

So its like each spouse buys 10K directly in 2024 and another 10K in gift box for total of 40K in 2024, and now they get an email from TD saying dleiver the gifts so they have 20K each purchased for 2024?
Correct
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Hot Sauce
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Hot Sauce »

Got the email today.

Spouse and I each have 10k in gift boxes waiting for delivery in 2025 (since we each already purchased our individual 10k amounts this year). I’m in the camp of continuing to wait until there is more clarity before delivering the gifts.

My question is:

If we do nothing and 1/1/2025 comes, what could happen to the amounts in the gift box? It’s notable that the email itself doesn’t mention a date, but 1/1/2025 was mentioned upthread from someone who called TD.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by life_force_prana »

Agitated_Analyst wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:11 am
life_force_prana wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:07 am I nor my wife have received this email from TD that everyone is talking about. I am also not sure what all this commotion is about, is it because folks are buying their annual 10K individually and also buying in gift box another 10K in same year for a future year and holding the gift box 10K to deliver in future year (a year in which they would not buy the 10K directly?), and now the email from TD is asking them to deliver the 10K gift in same year they also bought directly so double dipping the 10K limit in same calendar year?

So its like each spouse buys 10K directly in 2024 and another 10K in gift box for total of 40K in 2024, and now they get an email from TD saying dleiver the gifts so they have 20K each purchased for 2024?
Correct
Ok so maybe the reason we have not received any emails from TD is because we have not bought Ibonds directly since 2022. So 2021 and 2022 we bought 10K each directly individually but since then its all been gift box purchases all the way to 2030. So in 2022 we purchased for 2023 and 2024 and delivered those in 2022 itself and never bought directly in 2023 and 2024 to stay within 10K per SSN limit for 2023 and 2024. In 2023 we bought gifts for 2025 and 2026 and delivered those in 2023 with no plans to buy in 2025 and 2026 directly. Now in 2024 we bought for 2027,28,29, 2030, all of which will get delivered in Dec 2024 after waiting out the 5 days to deliver gifts. So no Ibonds purchase till 2030 directly individually for us.

Now all this double dipping that is being allowed by TD is making me wonder if we should buy 10K each for 2024 calendar year directly?
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by UrsaTaurus »

FireAway wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:00 am I just got my notice today.

One thing I'm unclear on - what possible penalty could there be for NOT delivering the bonds until this confusion is cleared up? Why not wait until you really know what the situation is, or at least wait until end of year. What advantage does anyone see in acting NOW?
We're dealing with a lot of uncertainty, so the best course of action is a guessing game. But "policy" could go either way - more or LESS favorable. Also, you might assume that everyone will end up being treated the same, even if it means retroactive changes. But this might also not be true.

For example, it's not impossible that they announce (at any time) that Gifts must be delivered and that those count against future purchases (e.g. a $30K early delivery equates to a 3yr ban). But they might start the policy as of the date of the announcement and grandfather previous deliveries as 1-time, no penalty events given that they instructed everyone to deliver. Or maybe the Gifts are removed from the Gift box and given to the recipient's account, but they're held in a "locked" status as though they were still gifts, then automatically delivered/unlocked Jan 1 of 2025, 2026, 2027 etc.

And you can construct all sorts of similar scenarios.

Is it likely? Probably not. But personally, I feel like from everything we've heard, I have enough cover to go ahead and deliver. 90% it doesn't make any difference, but I think the upside outweighs the potential downside. Even if this means I'm taking advantage of the confusion created by TD.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by LuvBogle »

Adding my 2 cents...this year spouse and I only received gift box ibonds similar, i.e. one early in year from a purchase previous year and then 2 delivered this year (after TD posting of "demand" to deliver from gift box asap!) from gift box purchases earlier this year. No email received. Gift box is now empty. Soooo, perhaps a trigger by TD may be..."did you (also) buy for your own account." I had planned to buy for account and/or gift box with the post Nov 1 new rates...perhaps I should wait until first of calendar year. Hard to easily plan with TD with unannounced (I keep checking "News" at TD and nothing is there!) and seemingly change of terms...which would require prior 60 day APA publication in my view. Very poor service which is NOT justified by what it perceives are missteps by the public/customers using their own designed website! and responding to their website direction...they are estopped now from asserting "we were wrong!" And, they clearly waived any prohibition since their system allowed deliveries to go forth AND as reported by other, the gift notice was sent by TD to the recipients!
Last edited by LuvBogle on Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lyrrad
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Lyrrad »

FireAway wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:00 am I just got my notice today.

One thing I'm unclear on - what possible penalty could there be for NOT delivering the bonds until this confusion is cleared up? Why not wait until you really know what the situation is, or at least wait until end of year. What advantage does anyone see in acting NOW?
My guess is that online delivery from the gift box will be going away at some point and you’ll need to mail in a form to deliver them.

I’d also guess that they will send more reminders with more details before any changes take place.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by JBTX »

I just received email today. I’m going to deliver $30k to wife, and $30k her to me, all of which were purchased this year in gift box. They won’t have to ask me twice.
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neurosphere
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by neurosphere »

For what it's worth, my only undelivered bonds are several years of $100 bonds purchased for nephews who now over 18 (22 and 24!!) and are too lazy lol to create TD accounts to receive their gifts. I just received the email so maybe I'll forward it to them to help spur the account creation. I've wanted them out of my gift box for years now.

Summary: It seems everyone who has any gifts at all is getting this email, and not just those who bought gifts to "pre-buy" bonds for others to count against future limits. [All the other posts seemed to reference gifts for spouses]
If you have to ask "Is a Target Date fund right for me?", the answer is "Yes" (even in taxable accounts).
dukeblue219
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by dukeblue219 »

life_force_prana wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:07 am I nor my wife have received this email from TD that everyone is talking about. I am also not sure what all this commotion is about, is it because folks are buying their annual 10K individually and also buying in gift box another 10K in same year for a future year and holding the gift box 10K to deliver in future year (a year in which they would not buy the 10K directly?), and now the email from TD is asking them to deliver the 10K gift in same year they also bought directly so double dipping the 10K limit in same calendar year?

So its like each spouse buys 10K directly in 2024 and another 10K in gift box for total of 40K in 2024, and now they get an email from TD saying dleiver the gifts so they have 20K each purchased for 2024?
Yes to all of that.
Irene
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Irene »

I got the email today, and one of our gift bonds is quite new. I am going to wait a little bit for further clarification, but probably not beyond the end of the year. Edited to add that the email went to my spam folder, so check that.
majiaknight
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by majiaknight »

I received the email today and followed the suggestions to distribute the entire $140K in I Bonds across three TreasuryDirect accounts belonging to my family.

After this unplanned gift delivery, I realized that one of my child’s minor account received a total of $50K in I Bonds in 2024. Does this mean I need to file Form 709 when filing my tax return? What a mess…… :oops:
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anon_investor
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by anon_investor »

Irene wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 1:19 pm I got the email today, and one of our gift bonds is quite new. I am going to wait a little bit for further clarification, but probably not beyond the end of the year. Edited to add that the email went to my spam folder, so check that.
Yep, that is my thinking.
Makefile
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Makefile »

majiaknight wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:00 pm I received the email today and followed the suggestions to distribute the entire $140K in I Bonds across three TreasuryDirect accounts belonging to my family.

After this unplanned gift delivery, I realized that one of my child’s minor account received a total of $50K in I Bonds in 2024. Does this mean I need to file Form 709 when filing my tax return? What a mess…… :oops:
Whole other can of worms wrt whether the gift was made at the time of purchase regardless of whether it is delivered or not (my reading) or if the gift doesn't happen until delivery (and then there is an argument as to whether the purchase was a gift of a future interest which isn't eligible for the annual exclusion)
MCV
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by MCV »

Agitated_Analyst wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:53 am
Is there anyone who still hasn't received it?
Neither my wife nor I -- each with gift box holdings for the other -- have received 'the eMail' and; indeed, having max'd out our 2024 allotment last spring without, any longer, an opportunity to buy paper bonds via income-tax overpayment; each added to our reciprocal gift box holdings just two days ago, The events spawning this thread are of interest but their inscrutability won't animate either of us to do anything we wouldn't have done in their absence.
matt5728
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by matt5728 »

My wife received the email today, and I have not, despite the fact that our TD accounts mirror each other (same amounts and same purchase dates). We aren't doing anything until there is more clarity as to what changes TD plans to implement, and what would be the best course of action.
sailaway
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by sailaway »

matt5728 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:41 pm My wife received the email today, and I have not, despite the fact that our TD accounts mirror each other (same amounts and same purchase dates). We aren't doing anything until there is more clarity as to what changes TD plans to implement, and what would be the best course of action.
I just got mine, as well.

Interesting that it comes from research@td...
evancox10
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by evancox10 »

Eager for FIRE wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:03 am Or else they will manually deliver them.
How? not every gift recipient even has a TreasuryDirect account.
wqs
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by wqs »

majiaknight wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 2:00 pm I received the email today and followed the suggestions to distribute the entire $140K in I Bonds across three TreasuryDirect accounts belonging to my family.

After this unplanned gift delivery, I realized that one of my child’s minor account received a total of $50K in I Bonds in 2024. Does this mean I need to file Form 709 when filing my tax return? What a mess…… :oops:
The purchase year is the year for gift tax purposes.
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langelgjm
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by langelgjm »

Re: counting "excess" deliveries (assuming there is such a thing) against future year purchase limits, this directly contradicts TD's current regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations.

Do folks really think a federal agency is going to act in direct contradiction to their current regulations, especially after effectively inducing people to make "excess" deliveries? I can see them publishing new regulations and changing behavior going forward, but not changing them without written communication and applying the change retroactively.

All agencies have lawyers on staff, there's no way a federal agency lawyer would sign off on that nonsense. The simpler explanation is once again that the front line rep you get on the phone might not be 100% accurate in their claims.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." - John Bogle | "If I am what I have and if what I have is lost, who then am I?" - Erich Fromm
LuvBogle
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by LuvBogle »

langelgjm wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:10 pm Re: counting "excess" deliveries (assuming there is such a thing) against future year purchase limits, this directly contradicts TD's current regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations.

Do folks really think a federal agency is going to act in direct contradiction to their current regulations, especially after effectively inducing people to make "excess" deliveries? I can see them publishing new regulations and changing behavior going forward, but not changing them without written communication and applying the change retroactively.

All agencies have lawyers on staff, there's no way a federal agency lawyer would sign off on that nonsense. The simpler explanation is once again that the front line rep you get on the phone might not be 100% accurate in their claims.
Regs are waived all the time and by formal/informal means...welcome to the world of reality! The attorneys at TD know this and if they had a different view they would be proactive and/or getting their cv in order
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langelgjm
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by langelgjm »

LuvBogle wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:16 pm
langelgjm wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:10 pm Re: counting "excess" deliveries (assuming there is such a thing) against future year purchase limits, this directly contradicts TD's current regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations.

Do folks really think a federal agency is going to act in direct contradiction to their current regulations, especially after effectively inducing people to make "excess" deliveries? I can see them publishing new regulations and changing behavior going forward, but not changing them without written communication and applying the change retroactively.

All agencies have lawyers on staff, there's no way a federal agency lawyer would sign off on that nonsense. The simpler explanation is once again that the front line rep you get on the phone might not be 100% accurate in their claims.
Regs are waived all the time and by formal/informal means...welcome to the world of reality! The attorneys at TD know this and if they had a different view they would be proactive and/or getting their cv in order
Maybe I work at an agency where the stakes are higher. Our lawyers are extremely risk averse in their intepretations.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." - John Bogle | "If I am what I have and if what I have is lost, who then am I?" - Erich Fromm
headstrong
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by headstrong »

langelgjm wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:10 pm Re: counting "excess" deliveries (assuming there is such a thing) against future year purchase limits, this directly contradicts TD's current regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations.

Do folks really think a federal agency is going to act in direct contradiction to their current regulations, especially after effectively inducing people to make "excess" deliveries? I can see them publishing new regulations and changing behavior going forward, but not changing them without written communication and applying the change retroactively.

All agencies have lawyers on staff, there's no way a federal agency lawyer would sign off on that nonsense. The simpler explanation is once again that the front line rep you get on the phone might not be 100% accurate in their claims.
I received the email for my spouse and I this morning. We had "acquired" (purchased) our yearly purchase quota last spring, and we did gift box purchases this week on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, all complete by today.

I can't wait to deliver these as soon as the 5-day wait period has completed. Frankly I see no downside to do so, and in fact, this is what I explicitly have been requested by TD to do (that part of the communication is clear).

It makes no sense at all to me that future purchases should be limited by these deliveries. The gift receiver would be the victim, not perpetrator, and in theory is passive and does not control the givers actions of gift purchase or delivery. The new restriction for the receiver would not be imposed by him/herself, or originally intended by the gift giver, but instead caused by TD with this sudden and unexpected mid-year request for immediate delivery.
But anyway even so if future purchases by the gift receiver are blocked I'll have no regrets about buying and delivering the gifts at these rates. For me the preponderance of uncertainties and risks would be mostly from waiting. Delivering now is the best case for me, and simplifies all the gift box stuff in my TD account. Thanks very much everyone and especially langelgjm for the informative language semantics parsing, which makes as much or more sense to me as any of the other stuff I've heard.
Eager for FIRE
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds

Post by Eager for FIRE »

evancox10 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:53 pm
Eager for FIRE wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:03 am Or else they will manually deliver them.
How? not every gift recipient even has a TreasuryDirect account.
Well, first they’d likely remind you and attempt to reach the recipient to inform them of that rule when you signed up and gifted that someone. And by email & mail simply advise you of whatever the new policy. Which likely includes the recipient must open an account. Ultimately they could just burn the recipient for not opening an account by either mailing them or you a check for principal and interest YTD. But depriving you/them of the long term known future returns and inflation protections.

Or they could simply interpret your violation of their rules and refund your purchases with or without some arbitrary interest they calculate.

For me the bigger penalty would be the missed opportunity of some alternative where I could have invested the money. Many of us stacked up years of front loading when the opportunity seemed right - higher than typical returns with great safety & security, knowing exactly what we invested in. And recently the certain fixed real return.

What’s your recourse if they just cashed them out?

I’d be very disappointed receiving a check for my principal and even simple interest vs. a 30 year option to continue with a known real return of 1.3% or whatever.
Last edited by Eager for FIRE on Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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