To roof or not to roof ..

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Topic Author
nannid
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 am

To roof or not to roof ..

Post by nannid »

All, I am looking for some advice on the following situation -

( Preface - I had posted a while back about potentially selling my house now but I decided to hold off on that for at least 5 more years )

House built - 1991 .
I bought in 2016 - was told some shingles were replaced . Inspector said roof has maybe 8-10 years left , so it's exactly 8 years now.
Note - The inspector then had found a very small section of mold in the attic - the seller paid for the remediation that I requested at the time.


I recently asked a local roofing company for an inspection . He thinks it has 2-4 more years left . He also says that costs will go up ( 40% ? ! ) in the next couple of years which I think was just a marketing tactic . Costs will go up for sure but not convinced about the 40% hike ?


Apparently it has a double layer so the original was never removed , I think the newer shingles by previous owner were just done partially on this second layer . My best guess is the second layer was done sometime before 2011 based on the sale history .
Everything I read says that double layers are not recommended at all and shorten the lifespan.

Visual inspection from ground - no moss growing , some algae stains, no cracked or missing shingles that i can see from the ground or excessive curling . Some wear at the front , a small portion of the back looks pretty good to me which I think is where those newer ones were done .

No leaks in ceiling or attic area . I did see about 10 boards or so in the attic quite dark in color ..moisture?

I am trying to figure out what to do here -

If it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?

Also I don't know if I got lucky or what but I didn't have any problems switching insurances this year . I looked at the policy and they have 2000 as potential age of the roof. They came by for an external walk-around too.

Thanks for any help !
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Sandtrap
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by Sandtrap »

nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am All, I am looking for some advice on the following situation -

( Preface - I had posted a while back about potentially selling my house now but I decided to hold off on that for at least 5 more years )

House built - 1991 .
I bought in 2016 - was told some shingles were replaced . Inspector said roof has maybe 8-10 years left , so it's exactly 8 years now.
Note - The inspector then had found a very small section of mold in the attic - the seller paid for the remediation that I requested at the time.


I recently asked a local roofing company for an inspection . He thinks it has 2-4 more years left . He also says that costs will go up ( 40% ? ! ) in the next couple of years which I think was just a marketing tactic . Costs will go up for sure but not convinced about the 40% hike ?


Apparently it has a double layer so the original was never removed , I think the newer shingles by previous owner were just done partially on this second layer . My best guess is the second layer was done sometime before 2011 based on the sale history .
Everything I read says that double layers are not recommended at all and shorten the lifespan.

Visual inspection from ground - no moss growing , some algae stains, no cracked or missing shingles that i can see from the ground or excessive curling . Some wear at the front , a small portion of the back looks pretty good to me which I think is where those newer ones were done .

No leaks in ceiling or attic area . I did see about 10 boards or so in the attic quite dark in color ..moisture?

I am trying to figure out what to do here -

If it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?

Also I don't know if I got lucky or what but I didn't have any problems switching insurances this year . I looked at the policy and they have 2000 as potential age of the roof. They came by for an external walk-around too.

Thanks for any help !
If you need your roof roofed and you already have a double layer.
Then do a "tear off" down to the roof sheathing, replace sheathing as needed, replace or repair flashing as needed, put on an excellent synthetic underlayment (it's the underlayment that keeps your house dry and secure, while the roofing material protects the underlayment, see?) , be sure to use "flex forto flash" *ir better) around roof penetrations, flashings, vents, etc.
Then, either install an excellent synthetic roof shingle or a "forever roof" as long as your truss spacing can support it. IE: metal roof, tile roof, etc.
Depending on you budget. How much you can and will spend.
How long you are going to live in the home before you sell it.
etc.
Also, conform to your local HOA and subdivision code compliance as to "the look", etc.

*some building codes in various areas only allow a certain number of layers before a "tear off" is required.

Get at lease 3 estimates from local reputable licensed roofing contractors with on site on roof inspections.
Go a to a local contractor roofing supply center and ask the customer rep for some roofing contractor referrals, they know who is good and who does lousy work.

To op: question.

Do you have a solid OSB or PLY underlayment when you look at the roof from the attic?
Or do you have lats or bats and no OSB or solid ply underlayment?

j
Last edited by Sandtrap on Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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jebmke
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by jebmke »

nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am I did see about 10 boards or so in the attic quite dark in color ..moisture?
What did the roof inspector say about the sheathing and dark colors?
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AlmostThereCT
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Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:33 am

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by AlmostThereCT »

Time for a new roof. Moisture in the attic leads to only bad, expensive problems.
It will definitely be an issue/buyer's negotiating point when you go to sell in 5 years or so, assuming the current roof lasts that long.
Get a few quotes, get references from your friends/neighbors, and get it done.
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jeffyscott
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by jeffyscott »

nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 amIf it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?
I wouldn't worry about costs going up, since the money would earn interest in the meantime. But since a new roof will last 20-30 years and you are going to be there at least 5 (and probably not 20+ :?: ), it seems like you may as well do it sooner rather than waiting for an obvious problem to appear (unless you'd rather hope for a hail storm).

We have had three roofs replace, with the first there were no specific issues but it was about 30 years old. The neighbors with an identical house had just had their's replaced by a guy who did it by adding a layer for about $800 (circa. 1987), so we did the same.

The second was maybe 25 years old and a small leak appeared. The third was done for $1000 deductible under insurance after hail damage was documented by an insurance adjuster, the existing roof was only 10 years old.
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lthenderson
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Location: Iowa

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by lthenderson »

nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am If it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?
In my experience, when shingles get to the end of their life, it isn't leaks that happen but the shingles themselves will start cracking, curling and falling apart. You will find bits and pieces in your yard, driveway and gutters. Leaks certainly could happen if you don't fix it at that point but if your shingles aren't cracking, curling or falling apart, I wouldn't just change them because of some estimated life time frame given to me by someone in the business of inspecting or putting on roofs. Another factor that influences this is that roofing companies have always been plentiful where I live and getting a roofer can be done usually within a month, unlike finding someone to do a remodel job of a kitchen which might take a year or two. In the worst case a leak does happen and I've had a few over the years but always due to failed flashing and not the shingles, it generally takes less than a couple hundred dollars to fix the damaged ceiling in that area, most of that cost in just repainting. Drywall is cheap.
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

In the past I would look for and buy older homes - usually "as is". The roof (and whatever damage I think or know has been caused by it) is one of the things that would make or break if I would put in a bid on the house. :)
nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am
No leaks in ceiling or attic area . I did see about 10 boards or so in the attic quite dark in color ..moisture?
Maybe. The thing with older roofs is that they may fail very slowly over time causing slow sometimes complicated damage. Water seeks it's own level (or whatever that cliche is) which means water damage may occur far from where the leak is happening.
I am trying to figure out what to do here -

If it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?

Also I don't know if I got lucky or what but I didn't have any problems switching insurances this year . I looked at the policy and they have 2000 as potential age of the roof. They came by for an external walk-around too.
After having several houses (including my primary home) with older roofs when purchased - it's much much much better to replace a roof you KNOW is old and nearing the end of it's life before you have visible to you water damage and/or an actual cascade of water coming in from the roof. You get to the "cascade from the roof" usually slowly and over time... there will usually be some water intrusion in your attic - wet spots on the underlayment for the roof, maybe you notice paint peeling the ceiling in a upstairs room OR you notice paint peeling (on the drywall) in your Basement. You don't always see signs of a leak in your attic.

That said. If this was my house which I might be selling in 5 years - I would plan to replace the roof within 12 months (gives you time to get it done). The "pros" are - you get to enjoy the security of a bright "shiny" new roof and when you go to sell the house it will have a newer roof. You will need to replace the roof weather you sell or keep the house. If you do it now - you get some "goodness" out of the money you spend on the roof... rather than waiting to do before you sell the house. (odds are your asking price for the house will be the same with a 5 year old roof as it will be with a 1 year old roof.)

As a buyer - a house with a roof that needs to be replaced a year or two after moving in can be a VERY BIG unexpected expense - especially if they paid top dollar for the house (and not a slightly discounted price because they would need to replace the roof and repair any found damage). Add in the stress and drama if the roof fails and they have a cascade of water in their home from the leaking roof. I know lots of newbie house buyers take the inspectors words "the roof is ok" and ignore the "the roof is 25 years old" part.

As for insurance - I'm guessing you are paying a bit more because of the old roof. A new roof may save you a couple hundred in insurance.
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

In the past I would look for and buy older homes - usually "as is". The roof (and whatever damage I think or know has been caused by it) is one of the things that would make or break if I would put in a bid on the house. :)
nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am
No leaks in ceiling or attic area . I did see about 10 boards or so in the attic quite dark in color ..moisture?
Maybe. The thing with older roofs is that they may fail very slowly over time causing slow sometimes complicated damage. Water seeks it's own level (or whatever that cliche is) which means water damage may occur far from where the leak is happening. Also sometimes old damage isn't bad enough to "replace" the damaged area. You need to try to determine if "damage" was done long ago, the leak repaired, and the "damage" left as is. The dark boards could be old damage you need to examine them (and the roof over them) closely to determine if "old, fixed problem not a problem now" or "problem!!".
I am trying to figure out what to do here -

If it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?

Also I don't know if I got lucky or what but I didn't have any problems switching insurances this year . I looked at the policy and they have 2000 as potential age of the roof. They came by for an external walk-around too.
After having several houses (including my primary home) with older roofs when purchased - it's much much much better to replace a roof you KNOW is old and nearing the end of it's life before you have visible to you water damage and/or an actual cascade of water coming in from the roof. You get to the "cascade from the roof" usually slowly and over time... there will usually be some water intrusion in your attic - wet spots on the underlayment for the roof, maybe you notice paint peeling the ceiling in a upstairs room OR you notice paint peeling (on the drywall) in your Basement. You don't always see signs of a leak in your attic.

That said. If this was my house which I might be selling in 5 years - I would plan to replace the roof within 12 months (gives you time to get it done). The "pros" are - you get to enjoy the security of a bright "shiny" new roof and when you go to sell the house it will have a newer roof. You will need to replace the roof weather you sell or keep the house. If you do it now - you get some "goodness" out of the money you spend on the roof... rather than waiting to do before you sell the house. (odds are your asking price for the house will be the same with a 5 year old roof as it will be with a 1 year old roof.)

As a buyer - a house with a roof that needs to be replaced a year or two after moving in can be a VERY BIG unexpected expense - especially if they paid top dollar for the house (and not a slightly discounted price because they would need to replace the roof and repair any found damage). Add in the stress and drama if the roof fails and they have a cascade of water in their home from the leaking roof. I know lots of newbie house buyers take the inspectors words "the roof is ok" and ignore the "the roof is 25 years old" part.

As for insurance - I'm guessing you are paying a bit more because of the old roof. A new roof may save you a couple hundred in insurance.
Topic Author
nannid
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 am

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by nannid »

jebmke wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:41 am
nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am I did see about 10 boards or so in the attic quite dark in color ..moisture?
What did the roof inspector say about the sheathing and dark colors?
These weren't there when I bought it in 2016 , I should have clarified. I had gone up there with him then.
miket29
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by miket29 »

The WSJ had an article this summer about roof inspectors who, as opposed to roofing contractors, don't have a financial conflict of interest in telling you that your roof needs replacement. Perhaps you'd want to hire one.

Gift article is at https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/how-lon ... _permalink
Mr. Rumples
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by Mr. Rumples »

In the scheme of things, two years +/- doesn't matter. There is no rush; get multiple bids. Unless things have changed, new roofs don't go on in the dead of winter. Don't wait for a problem. When I had my home - just sold - I waited too long and needed plaster repairs (plaster, not drywall). Take it down to the "decking" and have it brought up to current Code standards. Let the homeowner's ins. company know.
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thedaybeforetoday
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am All, I am looking for some advice on the following situation -

He also says that costs will go up ( 40% ? ! ) in the next couple of years which I think was just a marketing tactic . Costs will go up for sure but not convinced about the 40% hike ?
I don't believe this is a marketing tactic, although I could see why you might take that position.

We were thinking of a new roof due to age (no issues as you describe with dark sections, but our insurance kept going up year after year due to the age of the roof and seeing more and more of those shingle pebbles in the gutters) and went ahead and bit the bullet this summer and got it done for this reason. 50 year shingles with the entire roof deck wrapped with the ice dam material; we are in the Northeast.

Good friend of my is a general manager of a good size roofing company and said the same about roofing materials going up the next couple years in that 40% range.

Do the roof.
Last edited by thedaybeforetoday on Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Topic Author
nannid
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 am

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by nannid »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:32 am
nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am All, I am looking for some advice on the following situation -

( Preface - I had posted a while back about potentially selling my house now but I decided to hold off on that for at least 5 more years )

House built - 1991 .
I bought in 2016 - was told some shingles were replaced . Inspector said roof has maybe 8-10 years left , so it's exactly 8 years now.
Note - The inspector then had found a very small section of mold in the attic - the seller paid for the remediation that I requested at the time.


I recently asked a local roofing company for an inspection . He thinks it has 2-4 more years left . He also says that costs will go up ( 40% ? ! ) in the next couple of years which I think was just a marketing tactic . Costs will go up for sure but not convinced about the 40% hike ?


Apparently it has a double layer so the original was never removed , I think the newer shingles by previous owner were just done partially on this second layer . My best guess is the second layer was done sometime before 2011 based on the sale history .
Everything I read says that double layers are not recommended at all and shorten the lifespan.

Visual inspection from ground - no moss growing , some algae stains, no cracked or missing shingles that i can see from the ground or excessive curling . Some wear at the front , a small portion of the back looks pretty good to me which I think is where those newer ones were done .

No leaks in ceiling or attic area . I did see about 10 boards or so in the attic quite dark in color ..moisture?

I am trying to figure out what to do here -

If it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?

Also I don't know if I got lucky or what but I didn't have any problems switching insurances this year . I looked at the policy and they have 2000 as potential age of the roof. They came by for an external walk-around too.

Thanks for any help !
If you need your roof roofed and you already have a double layer.
Then do a "tear off" down to the roof sheathing, replace sheathing as needed, replace or repair flashing as needed, put on an excellent synthetic underlayment (it's the underlayment that keeps your house dry and secure, while the roofing material protects the underlayment, see?) , be sure to use "flex forto flash" *ir better) around roof penetrations, flashings, vents, etc.
Then, either install an excellent synthetic roof shingle or a "forever roof" as long as your truss spacing can support it. IE: metal roof, tile roof, etc.
Depending on you budget. How much you can and will spend.
How long you are going to live in the home before you sell it.
etc.
Also, conform to your local HOA and subdivision code compliance as to "the look", etc.

*some building codes in various areas only allow a certain number of layers before a "tear off" is required.

Get at lease 3 estimates from local reputable licensed roofing contractors with on site on roof inspections.
Go a to a local contractor roofing supply center and ask the customer rep for some roofing contractor referrals, they know who is good and who does lousy work.

To op: question.

Do you have a solid OSB or PLY underlayment when you look at the roof from the attic?
Or do you have lats or bats and no OSB or solid ply underlayment?

j
I believe they are OSB boards .Thanks for the details !!
Topic Author
nannid
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 am

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by nannid »

thedaybeforetoday wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:46 am
nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 am All, I am looking for some advice on the following situation -

He also says that costs will go up ( 40% ? ! ) in the next couple of years which I think was just a marketing tactic . Costs will go up for sure but not convinced about the 40% hike ?
I don't believe this is a marketing tactic, although I could see why you might take that position.

We were thinking of a new roof due to age (no issues as you describe with dark sections, but our insurance kept going up year after year due to the age of the roof and seeing more and more of those shingle pebbles in the gutters) and went ahead and bit the bullet this summer and got it done for this reason.

Good friend of my is a general manager of a good size roofing company and said the same about roofing materials going up the next couple years in that 40% range.

Do the roof.
Interesting - that's definitely helpful coming from someone you know . Thank you !
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ClevrChico
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by ClevrChico »

The mold could be a sign of poor ventilation or just over humidification of your house in the winter. If the roof isn't leaking or worn out yet, what are you exactly trying to fix?
Emorla
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by Emorla »

t sounds like you’re in a tricky spot with the roof! I’ve been there, and it’s definitely a headache. If your roof really only has 2-4 years left, I’d recommend getting it replaced sooner rather than waiting for leaks to show up. I waited too long on a roof once, and dealing with water damage was a nightmare and way more expensive than just replacing it early. As for the price hike, I’ve seen costs go up, but a 40% jump feels pretty steep. Maybe get a couple more quotes from different roofing companies to see what they say.
Lalamimi
Posts: 1281
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Location: Texas

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by Lalamimi »

Get it removed and replaced. Have you had any recent storms? Have the roofer bring your insurnace adjuster! We had never filed a claim for a roof, but did so 5 yrs ago. It was a $28K roof and Allstate paid!! Don't wait for trouble. Allstate then gave us a premium refund, since we now had a new roof! You will also get a break on your insurance.
Topic Author
nannid
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 am

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by nannid »

ClevrChico wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:11 pm The mold could be a sign of poor ventilation or just over humidification of your house in the winter. If the roof isn't leaking or worn out yet, what are you exactly trying to fix?


yep - definitely could be poor ventilation. My initial thought was to have that checked out and adjusted as well along with the roof but maybe I need to address these separately.

There are worn shingles in some areas of the roof ( granular loss on the shingles that you can see standing on the ground ) but it's not causing any major issues as yet . Probably because of two layers ..I don't know.

I think I was really just relying on the initial inspection when I bought the house . 8 years ago , the independent inspector estimated said 8-10 years , very recent inspection by roofer said 2-4 years so at least they were close enough in estimates.

Either way it's not something I am running out to do tomorrow . I just want to plan and budget for this so that's going to take a bit of time too.
Topic Author
nannid
Posts: 73
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by nannid »

miket29 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:28 am The WSJ had an article this summer about roof inspectors who, as opposed to roofing contractors, don't have a financial conflict of interest in telling you that your roof needs replacement. Perhaps you'd want to hire one.

Gift article is at https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/how-lon ... _permalink
Thank you !!
vested1
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by vested1 »

jeffyscott wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:55 am
nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:27 amIf it does have 2-4 more years left , do I wait and if so for what ''signs' ? Do people wait for leaks and replace then ? - which seems a huge pain to me
or for peace of mind just replace now since costs will just go up anyway?
I wouldn't worry about costs going up, since the money would earn interest in the meantime. But since a new roof will last 20-30 years and you are going to be there at least 5 (and probably not 20+ :?: ), it seems like you may as well do it sooner rather than waiting for an obvious problem to appear (unless you'd rather hope for a hail storm).

We have had three roofs replace, with the first there were no specific issues but it was about 30 years old. The neighbors with an identical house had just had their's replaced by a guy who did it by adding a layer for about $800 (circa. 1987), so we did the same.

The second was maybe 25 years old and a small leak appeared. The third was done for $1000 deductible under insurance after hail damage was documented by an insurance adjuster, the existing roof was only 10 years old.
It would be in everyone's best interest to review their HO policies for any changes on roof replacement that may not have been disclosed.

My brother experienced some hail damage during the latest hurricane and the roofer who came out to give an estimate said he could fix the damaged spots or replace the roof. The same roofer had replaced the neighbor's roof at a cost of 21k. The roofer said he was extremely busy replacing roofs in the community.

When my brother called his insurance company he was told that the deductible for his roof had been changed from $1,000 to 2% of the home value, for him about 11k. He decided to get the damaged sections repaired for about 1k and didn't file a claim.

After hearing that I called my own insurance (AAA) which was different than his, and asked about our roof deductible since I couldn't find it in our paperwork. It had also changed from $1,000 to 2% of the home value, or about 14k. Damage from named storms had changed to 3% of the homes value for both my own and my brother's HO insurance.
JonFund
Posts: 273
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by JonFund »

I noticed that you had a roofer do your inspection. I would suggest using an independent certified roofing inspector. I don't recall the exact name, but there is an association that has a recognized certification for inspectors. Asking a roofer to do the inspection is like asking your barber if you need a haircut.
thedaybeforetoday
Posts: 1025
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

nannid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:53 am
thedaybeforetoday wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:46 am

I don't believe this is a marketing tactic, although I could see why you might take that position.

We were thinking of a new roof due to age (no issues as you describe with dark sections, but our insurance kept going up year after year due to the age of the roof and seeing more and more of those shingle pebbles in the gutters) and went ahead and bit the bullet this summer and got it done for this reason.

Good friend of my is a general manager of a good size roofing company and said the same about roofing materials going up the next couple years in that 40% range.

Do the roof.
Interesting - that's definitely helpful coming from someone you know . Thank you !
Yeah and no way we were using his company seeing he's out west, so he had no reason to spin it.
Said he saw a materials price sheet for the coming year and was shocked.
:sharebeer
"When I was a kid my parents moved a lot, but I always found them." R. Dangerfield
snic
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Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by snic »

Poke the dark areas of the roof deck with a screwdriver. Does it go in pretty easily compared with the non-dark areas? Worse yet, can you easily pry out slivers of the dark wood? Then you have rot and you should re-roof ASAP. Otherwise, if it's sound, it's just dark, and if I were you I would wait a few years because it looks like it's in pretty good condition and you don't have any leaks.
mjg
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Location: CA

Re: To roof or not to roof ..

Post by mjg »

Maybe push with something broad that would not penetrate a shingle to see if the area is soft or spongy. But I wouldn’t poke with a screwdriver that could poke a hole in the shingle and underlayment.
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