Justifying Tesla Purchase

[RickBoglehead]

A lease option for half the mileage you drive makes zero sense. Get an option for the mileage you do drive...

Other arguments for justifying a Tesla purchase:

1) You like bland, egg-shaped, design.
2) You enjoy chanting "one of us, one of us".
3) Your favorite bird is the lemmings.

Why the angst and constant trolling when it comes to Tesla? What do you drive now and what cars have you owned?

100% non-Tesla EVs.

Cannot comment on my feelings re the CEO as that would violate rules here.

[ThankYouJack]

A lease option for half the mileage you drive makes zero sense. Get an option for the mileage you do drive...

Other arguments for justifying a Tesla purchase:

1) You like bland, egg-shaped, design.
2) You enjoy chanting "one of us, one of us".
3) Your favorite bird is the lemmings.

Why the angst and constant trolling when it comes to Tesla? What do you drive now and what cars have you owned?

100% non-Tesla EVs.

Cannot comment on my feelings re the CEO as that would violate rules here.

You're not alone with your thoughts on the CEO.

But instead of constantly trolling Tesla, wouldn't it be more convincing (and better use of your time) to name some competitive alternatives including what you drive?

[jebmke]

But instead of constantly trolling Tesla, wouldn't it be more convincing (and better use of your time) to name some competitive alternatives including what you drive?

It can be hard to do that sometimes if a car is being selected both for utilitarian purposes and "jewelry" purposes ("excited about"). That's why I rarely make recommendations other than if one's existing car meets their needs, the most economical and often the most environmentally friendly solution is to not buy a new car.

[teniralc]

Could a Honda Prologue be a lease option for you? It has been well-reviewed in the videos and articles I've seen.
https://automobiles.honda.com/prologue

[Jack FFR1846]

My Model S Plaid is only $209 per month for insurance (full coverage, $500 deductible, and high coverage). I would think a model 3 would be cheaper.

Unless you're in the same zip code, same marital status, same driving record, same number of multiple cars on the policy, same AAA membership etc, that number is meaningless. My Jeep Wrangler with high liability and full coverage costs me $325 a YEAR and that increased from $295 last YEAR, not month. I live in the second lowest risk town in my state, haven't had a ticket since 1987, have 3 other cars on the policy, am married and have my AAA discount applied. Someone in New Jersey will likely pay that same amount per month because most of New Jersey is a higher risk. Right now, if you wanted to steal my wife's car, you'd only have to get in it. Keys in the cup holder like always.

On the insurance side, they likely have much higher crashes from a Model 3 because a model S buyer is going to be older and more responsible. In Subarus, between the cheaper WRX and the STi, the STi has always been way cheaper to insure. The insurance company analyzes everything in determining risk.

To the OP: Why do you want a Model 3 and why are you comparing it to boats of SUVs and crossovers? I'd think you'd compare it to Camry, Legacy, Accord and Maxima if you're looking at sedans. If you're thinking performance, maybe Mustang, Supra, Challenger Scat Pack, Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing. If fun, Miata, GR86. Also, have you done the math to see if you save any money per mile driving a model 3? I've done it many times and the cheaper per mile vehicle based on fuel cost switches back and fourth. I have cheap gas and very expensive electricity in my area. My August electric bill was well over $700 and I have no electric car. Just 2 refrigerators and a central air unit. 39 cents a kWh now and $2.92 per gallon for gas.

[hunoraut]

I live in the second lowest risk town in my state, haven't had a ticket since 1987, have 3 other cars on the policy, am married and have my AAA discount applied. Someone in New Jersey will likely pay that same amount per month because most of New Jersey is a higher risk. Right now, if you wanted to steal my wife's car, you'd only have to get in it. Keys in the cup holder like always.

which street is it in town and what color is the car?

[cmr79]

My Model S Plaid is only $209 per month for insurance (full coverage, $500 deductible, and high coverage). I would think a model 3 would be cheaper.

Unless you're in the same zip code, same marital status, same driving record, same number of multiple cars on the policy, same AAA membership etc, that number is meaningless. My Jeep Wrangler with high liability and full coverage costs me $325 a YEAR and that increased from $295 last YEAR, not month. I live in the second lowest risk town in my state, haven't had a ticket since 1987, have 3 other cars on the policy, am married and have my AAA discount applied. Someone in New Jersey will likely pay that same amount per month because most of New Jersey is a higher risk. Right now, if you wanted to steal my wife's car, you'd only have to get in it. Keys in the cup holder like always.

On the insurance side, they likely have much higher crashes from a Model 3 because a model S buyer is going to be older and more responsible. In Subarus, between the cheaper WRX and the STi, the STi has always been way cheaper to insure. The insurance company analyzes everything in determining risk.

To the OP: Why do you want a Model 3 and why are you comparing it to boats of SUVs and crossovers? I'd think you'd compare it to Camry, Legacy, Accord and Maxima if you're looking at sedans. If you're thinking performance, maybe Mustang, Supra, Challenger Scat Pack, Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing. If fun, Miata, GR86. Also, have you done the math to see if you save any money per mile driving a model 3? I've done it many times and the cheaper per mile vehicle based on fuel cost switches back and fourth. I have cheap gas and very expensive electricity in my area. My August electric bill was well over $700 and I have no electric car. Just 2 refrigerators and a central air unit. 39 cents a kWh now and $2.92 per gallon for gas.

I thought your electricity costs had gone back down...did they go up again? I'm still curious if any other part of the country outside of the greater Boston area has this gasoline vs electricity price disparity. I'm not aware of it, and I have looked.

[oragne lovre]

I really really like the car. Want it bad. Just having a difficulty time justifying the purchase.

Assuming I get the model 3 LR I have 2 options

1. $520/month for 3 year lease. No down. 10k mileage per year but I drive usually 20k miles a year

2. Purchase used one with low mileage outright. 38k for under 10k miles.

Only thing that goes against boglehead principle is that it
1) $350-450 in monthly insurance. It negates the gas saving vs ICE car.
2) High depreciation
3) Expensive to repair

Should I just pull the trigger? I drove bogleheads recommended cars like Rav4, Highlander, CRV and Pilot but they drive like a boat and most importantly, the autopilot feature is horrible. It cant keep the car in lane. I need this bad as I drive long distance often.

I have driven a LR model 3 for about 8 years. My previous car was a "bogleheadish" 1997 Toyota Camry that had 300K plus miles before I donated it about a month ago.

1) It's nearly impossible to correctly compare insurance rates among different drivers unless they live in the same area, have the same driving record, pay the same insurance bundle for other household cars, home insurance, earthquake insurance, etc.
2) If you tend to drive a car for a long period of time, depreciation factor should not be important. For me, cars are more like a tool than a collectible
3) It may or may not be expensive to repair, depending on your driving habit. Like you, I drive about 18-20K miles a year. I have not had any major problems with my model 3 for past 8 years and my repair expense was $36 when I had a window-rolling button replaced about 3 months ago.


I should mention couple of things as a boglehead

-tire maintenance cost may be higher since Tesla car tires seem to wear out sooner
-overall Tesla 3 maintenance cost is even lower than that of my reliable Camry
-buying a used, low-mileage one directly from Tesla is probably a preferable choice
-the longer you keep it, the more you save from initial upfront cost

You should ignore personal, political opinions thrown in this thread by some commenters around here. We buy a car; we do not discuss about our feeling about a company CEO or whatever executives of the company.

[RickBoglehead]

You're not alone with your thoughts on the CEO.

But instead of constantly trolling Tesla, wouldn't it be more convincing (and better use of your time) to name some competitive alternatives including what you drive?

Not worth the effort. Bogleheads is a great forum for financial advice focused on a 3-fund portfolio. IMO, for many other things it's not a great source of unbiased information, or for researching a purchase. I go to the forums where they focus on the item or topic. Want to buy a TV? Why on earth would I come here to research it? (Bought an 85" Samsung a few months ago). "Have you tried moving your chair closer?" "You can buy a pair of magnifying glasses and a 20" tube TV looks great". Nobody says "the picture on that 85" blows my mind when I watch a movie, and 4K is UNBELIEVEABLE".

For automobiles, Boglehead advice focuses on two perspectives - driving a Flintstone mobile until it dies, or having a collectible car. The concept of "fun to drive" isn't big here. "My 19 year old ____ that won't hold a shine with rotted tires car needs $3,000 in repairs, should I spend it or buy a 14 year old ___ that won't hold a shine with semi-rotted tires?"

I bought two EVs, and then got rid of our last gas vehicle, because they're fun to drive. Don't need to justify my expenditure, nor convince others as to why they should, nor play the "can I afford it game". I did extensive research before buying, just not here. Neither is a Tesla. Ugly vehicles, all look the same, lack any design (except for the dumpster on wheels).

Been driving for almost 50 years. Never owned a used vehicle in my life, never will.

But whenever I see the words "justifying Tesla" I have to respond.

[runswithscissors]

Those are insane insurance costs. We pay $62/mo for full coverage on DW's MY. We are in VHCOL.

I know people here often say a vehicle beyond a basic no frills econobox is purely a lifestyle choice. I disagree. One thing to consider is the safety rating of the vehicle. I think buying a vehicle with an exceptionally high safety rating is no different than getting life insurance or better healthcare coverage. MY has the highest safety rating from the NHTSA and is overflowing with automated accident avoidance technology. Buy the safest vehicle you possibly can and ignore those that say the extra cost isn't worth it.

[jebmke]

Those are insane insurance costs. We pay $62/mo for full coverage on DW's MY. We are in VHCOL.

I know people heren often say a vehicle beyond a basic no frills econobox is purely a lifestyle choice. I disagree. One thing to consider is the safety rating of the vehicle. I think buying a vehicle with an exceptionally high safety rating is no different than getting life insurance or better healthcare coverage. MY has the highest safety rating from the NHTSA and is overflowing with automated accident avoidance technology. Buy the safest vehicle you possibly can and ignore those that say the extra cost isn't worth it.

this is why I always say that as long as a car meets your needs. My needs are likely quite different from many others. For example, right now I am often off paved road with serious road rutting and water. They are often remote with no cell service. So, I consider 4WD a need.

[hoofaman]

EVs can be a big downgrade in convenience, if you will always charge it at home it's great, but if you are counting on being able to charge it outside of your home YMMV.

There is a reason why rental companies like Hertz bought of a bunch of EVs and then recently started unloading them. travelers in particular have realized that EVs are a poor choice as the charging infrastructure is hit and miss. Imagine renting an EV on a trip and then getting stranded because the charger you drove to is non-functional

There is no way I would own an EV right now if I thought I would need to charge it away from home

[runswithscissors]

EVs can be a big downgrade in convenience, if you will always charge it at home it's great, but if you are counting on being able to charge it outside of your home YMMV.

There is no way I would own an EV right now if I thought I would need to charge it away from home

We charge at home. If we didn't have home charging we would not have EVs. One other small plus of having EVs is if you go to the malls and the EV stalls are open you get $6 of free electricity. At least this is the case at the malls we patronize. I never got a couple gallons of free gas going to the mall.

[runswithscissors]

There is a reason why rental companies like Hertz bought of a bunch of EVs and then recently started unloading them. travelers in particular have realized that EVs are a poor choice as the charging infrastructure is hit and miss. Imagine renting an EV on a trip and then getting stranded because the charger you drove to is non-functional

I would agree that it made no sense for Hertz to offer EVs when charging infrastructure was subpar. But it should also be said that EV's are terrible rental cars. Their all touch screen UIs with no buttons and knobs are completely unfamiliar and frustrating to use for the vast majority of people that have gas cars. Nobody should have to endure a learning curve to do simple tasks associated with driving a vehicle. You should be able to jump in and just go. It's unfortunate EVs seem to exclusively use these awful UIs. It's really the only thing I can't stand about the EVs we own. That and the all glass cooker roofs. Really dumb EV-centric "must haves" that need to die.

[hoofaman]

EVs can be a big downgrade in convenience, if you will always charge it at home it's great, but if you are counting on being able to charge it outside of your home YMMV.

There is no way I would own an EV right now if I thought I would need to charge it away from home

We charge at home. If we didn't have home charging we would not have EVs. One other small plus of having EVs is if you go to the malls and the EV stalls are open you get $6 of free electricity. At least this is the case at the malls we patronize. I never got a couple gallons of free gas going to the mall.

Around here there is also another nice benefit: EV owners are allowed to drive solo on the HOV lane, they can also use the "fast pass" toll lane for free. At least for now, maybe that will change in the future, but it's a nice benefit.

I like EVs personally

Long ago when I used to go to an office they had a ton of unmetered chargers that were free to use, it was a nice perk. At the time almost everyone with 20-30 commute was buying Nissan leafs

[Eno Deb]

There is a reason why rental companies like Hertz bought of a bunch of EVs and then recently started unloading them.

According to their regulatory filing the actual reason was high repair cost when the cars are damaged.

travelers in particular have realized that EVs are a poor choice as the charging infrastructure is hit and miss.

This is nonsense. Tesla's supercharger network is very good and reliable. Road trips are not an issue except possibly in a few remote parts of the country. That's the primary reason why Tesla remains a good choice for EV buyers despite all the corporate issues. As other automakers adopt NACS this is changing though.

But yes, I also wouldn't recommend buying an EV if you can't charge at home.

[CLKGTR]

https://youtu.be/0i12W7mRnE0

I am not sure if anyone has seen this but seems like a small damage to battery pack (either by salt water like that video or puncture into battery pack from road debris) can cause electrical fire in EVs which are literally unstoppable and can burn a house down with it. This is another one of my worries. Recently, mercedes eqe which probably had an unknown road damage to battery pack spontaneously ignited into flame and burned 100+ cars in underground parking garage. Ive seen some posts from fire fighters that they would rather deal with 10 ice car fires vs. 1 ev fire.

[209south]

Long-time Model 3 owner here. Best car I've ever owned and I have zero regrets. Battery range keeps improving and the charging network is first-rate, though I charge 99% of my time in my garage. Maintenance is a non-issue - 6 years in I've spent $56 on a cabin air filter and tire rotation, though I am going to get new tires soon. Fun to drive and economical - huge savings vs. gas. I've never leased a car so don't know the tradeoffs - I've always believed if you can write the check you're better off buying.

[learning30]

My Uncle has two, Model X and Y and he buys them brand new (as a BH that's always bugged me). I've drove them a bit and the various car parts can sometimes feel cheaply made for the price tag. I think I could just rip the inside door lining off - like the manufactured parts are cheap.

All that said, I still want one myself tbh. Just love the simplicity of the interior.

No opinion on the financial side.

[RickBoglehead]

https://youtu.be/0i12W7mRnE0

I am not sure if anyone has seen this but seems like a small damage to battery pack (either by salt water like that video or puncture into battery pack from road debris) can cause electrical fire in EVs which are literally unstoppable and can burn a house down with it. This is another one of my worries. Recently, mercedes eqe which probably had an unknown road damage to battery pack spontaneously ignited into flame and burned 100+ cars in underground parking garage. Ive seen some posts from fire fighters that they would rather deal with 10 ice car fires vs. 1 ev fire.

You shouldn't buy an EV if videos influence you like this.

[CLKGTR]

https://youtu.be/0i12W7mRnE0

I am not sure if anyone has seen this but seems like a small damage to battery pack (either by salt water like that video or puncture into battery pack from road debris) can cause electrical fire in EVs which are literally unstoppable and can burn a house down with it. This is another one of my worries. Recently, mercedes eqe which probably had an unknown road damage to battery pack spontaneously ignited into flame and burned 100+ cars in underground parking garage. Ive seen some posts from fire fighters that they would rather deal with 10 ice car fires vs. 1 ev fire.

You shouldn't buy an EV if videos influence you like this.

I get that but purchasing EV is not like believing in god which is a blind faith. I think it should be an educated purchase not just buying EV and just sweeping all possible dangers under the carpet.

I really want to justify it but if something is to happen, I dont want uncontrolled fire in my house.

[RickBoglehead]

https://youtu.be/0i12W7mRnE0

I am not sure if anyone has seen this but seems like a small damage to battery pack (either by salt water like that video or puncture into battery pack from road debris) can cause electrical fire in EVs which are literally unstoppable and can burn a house down with it. This is another one of my worries. Recently, mercedes eqe which probably had an unknown road damage to battery pack spontaneously ignited into flame and burned 100+ cars in underground parking garage. Ive seen some posts from fire fighters that they would rather deal with 10 ice car fires vs. 1 ev fire.

You shouldn't buy an EV if videos influence you like this.

I get that but purchasing EV is not like believing in god which is a blind faith. I think it should be an educated purchase not just buying EV and just sweeping all possible dangers under the carpet.

I really want to justify it but if something is to happen, I dont want uncontrolled fire in my house.

When is the last time you drove through feet of salt water?

Did you know that objects on road can puncture gas tanks?

[cubs1999]

https://youtu.be/0i12W7mRnE0

I am not sure if anyone has seen this but seems like a small damage to battery pack (either by salt water like that video or puncture into battery pack from road debris) can cause electrical fire in EVs which are literally unstoppable and can burn a house down with it. This is another one of my worries. Recently, mercedes eqe which probably had an unknown road damage to battery pack spontaneously ignited into flame and burned 100+ cars in underground parking garage. Ive seen some posts from fire fighters that they would rather deal with 10 ice car fires vs. 1 ev fire.

I read a decent discussion on EV and ICE fires in this thread on Bobistheoilguy forum

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threa ... vs.387342/

[cmr79]

https://youtu.be/0i12W7mRnE0

I am not sure if anyone has seen this but seems like a small damage to battery pack (either by salt water like that video or puncture into battery pack from road debris) can cause electrical fire in EVs which are literally unstoppable and can burn a house down with it. This is another one of my worries. Recently, mercedes eqe which probably had an unknown road damage to battery pack spontaneously ignited into flame and burned 100+ cars in underground parking garage. Ive seen some posts from fire fighters that they would rather deal with 10 ice car fires vs. 1 ev fire.

You shouldn't buy an EV if videos influence you like this.

I get that but purchasing EV is not like believing in god which is a blind faith. I think it should be an educated purchase not just buying EV and just sweeping all possible dangers under the carpet.

I really want to justify it but if something is to happen, I dont want uncontrolled fire in my house.

People in the path of the hurricane we're specifically warned to move vehicles to higher ground, especially if they are EVs...but like every storm where there are people who are told to evacuate and don't, some people didn't follow this advice. The risk of a thermal runaway event following flood damage from Hurricane Ian, according to a NHTSA study, was about 0.1%, so it isn't high by any means but also isn't low enough to not take some simple precautions (ref: https://insideevs.com/news/735638/ev-fire-after-flood/).

There are ways to mitigate EV battery fire risks, too. Lithium iron phosphate batteries use different electrolytes that aren't flammable and really don't have a similar thermal runaway risk to the more common NMC chemistry. NMC batteries themselves are much less likely to catch on fire if their state of charge is below 50-60%, which anyone storing a vehicle long term (say, someone who will be out of town for several weeks and didn't know a hurricane was coming) should be doing anyways as lower states of charge are better for battery health too (for the same reason...less potential energy = less fire risk, but also less energy driving secondary chemical reactions that bind up lithium and deplete the battery's potential).

If you are worried about EV battery fires but want to get an EV today, get one with an LFP battery. My home battery storage is LFP for that reason. My EV has an NMC battery, but we only charge to 60% when we aren't going on longer trips, so I'm really not worried about the fire risk, but if it worries you AND you need a longer range, higher energy density battery for your driving needs today...EV technology isn't ready for you. Solid state batteries should fix the fire risk issue, but they may still be many years away, at least in lower cost vehicles depending on how quickly manufacturing costs can come down...but perhaps this tech from LG Chem that purportedly can markedly cut the thermal runaway risk of standard chemistry lithium ion batteries will be on the market sooner for you: https://insideevs.com/news/735745/lg-ch ... l-runaway/

[Finridge]

Only thing that goes against boglehead principle is that it
1) $350-450 in monthly insurance. It negates the gas saving vs ICE car.
2) High depreciation
3) Expensive to repair

Questions:

- Why is insurance for a Tesla so much higher?

- On depreciation, wouldn't this work in our favor if we just bought a used Tesla? Or is there something happening, such having the batter wear out, that reduces its real value/utility?

- I hear that tires wear out faster on Teslas--this this due to choices people make in driving it (such as making jackrabbit starts) or is it due to factors we can't really control, such as the use of regenerative breaking?

I share the concerns others have expressed at how closely Tesla's future seems to be impacted by the foibles of a single person of questionable stability. The single biggest risk factor seems to be the CEO. I too am looking for EVs made by other companies.

[hunoraut]

Only thing that goes against boglehead principle is that it
1) $350-450 in monthly insurance. It negates the gas saving vs ICE car.
2) High depreciation
3) Expensive to repair

- Why is insurance for a Tesla so much higher?

- On depreciation, wouldn't this work in our favor if we just bought a used Tesla? Or is there something happening, such having the batter wear out, that reduces its real value/utility?

- I hear that tires wear out faster on Teslas--this this due to choices people make in driving it (such as making jackrabbit starts) or is it due to factors we can't really control, such as the use of regenerative breaking?

1. insurance price has high variance. others attested they received high quotes but ultimately found a better insurer. my personal premiums have always been reasonable

2. depreciation is a historical measurement and does not guarantee your future realized depreciation. for a long time tesla had demand-supply imbalance. consequently, for years tesla was recognized as having the lowest depreciation in industry.

if you want to crack a guess at future prices, consider that they have already reached scale production for 3/Y, their margins have already eroded from covid peaks (though still higher than traditional manufacturers), and how long you expect the federal tax credit to be available.

3. tire-wear is first order effect of how and where people drive. there is a ton of torque available to deploy. it is not due to cars alignment-- which is square'ish, so there is no suspension-induced degradation--or regen because people slow down at the same rate (ie same energy transferred into tires).

i have read here and there people report accelerated wear. i dont drive exactly like a saint, and after 5 years 60k miles i have 50% life on 2 sets of stock tires.

[Claudia Whitten]

Cars are consumption items, not needing justification.

Ugh after being burned with german luxury suv purchase, I dont want to make the same mistake. At the same time, I dont want to drive a car Im not excited about.

A car you're excited about? That's your problem. The only thing exciting about cars is getting out of them. They're death traps. Feel lucky each time you get out of one alive. Apparently driver education is a thing of the past.

As to Tesla, I hate that car. My partner has one. I curse it every time I get in, either as driver or passenger. First, I typically hit my head on the damn thing while getting into it. It's too low and cramped. The seats are uncomfortable. The HVAC system is horrible. Doing everything with a computer screen in the car is absolutely aggravating. The whole car feels cheaply made to me, but it was not cheap to buy (not counting the electrical upgrade required at the house). I could go on, but that's enough for me just to say no to Tesla. Correct that: hell no.

I like the *idea* of an EV. I don't like Tesla. I'll wait for Toyota to do it right, with buttons.

[jebmke]

Cars are consumption items, not needing justification.

Ugh after being burned with german luxury suv purchase, I dont want to make the same mistake. At the same time, I dont want to drive a car Im not excited about.

A car you're excited about? That's your problem. The only thing exciting about cars is getting out of them. They're death traps. Feel lucky each time you get out of one alive. Apparently driver education is a thing of the past.

As to Tesla, I hate that car. My partner has one. I curse it every time I get in, either as driver or passenger. First, I typically hit my head on the damn thing while getting into it. It's too low and cramped. The seats are uncomfortable. The HVAC system is horrible. Doing everything with a computer screen in the car is absolutely aggravating. The whole car feels cheaply made to me, but it was not cheap to buy (not counting the electrical upgrade required at the house). I could go on, but that's enough for me just to say no to Tesla. Correct that: hell no.

I like the *idea* of an EV. I don't like Tesla. I'll wait for Toyota to do it right, with buttons.

I happen to think thescreens add safety risk since they avert. Your eyes from the road. The rare times I drive my wife's Camry I try to remember to shut it down. It is also low headroom and extrememly poor visibility. But she loves it so it is fine with me. He whole idea of “justifying” a car makes no more sense than justifying a fur coat, a boat or a massive house.

That said, i do get entertainment value from these permission threads.

[Catalina25]

While watching the local news this morning, they had a segment on vehicular accident rates within the state and Tesla (with Subaru?) topped the list for cars with the highest accident rates.

[dsmclone]

Here is what actual owners think as of July 2024:

"Despite a limited product portfolio, Tesla has the highest brand loyalty at 67.8%".

For comparison sake, no other large manufacturer is over 60%. Toyota in 2023 dropped 5.7 points to land at 52.3%.

[jebmke]

While watching the local news this morning, they had a segment on vehicular accident rates within the state and Tesla (with Subaru?) topped the list for cars with the highest accident rates.

Not sure the car is the cause here. Unless they controlled for all other factors data like this don't mean a lot in my opinion.

[Catalina25]

While watching the local news this morning, they had a segment on vehicular accident rates within the state and Tesla (with Subaru?) topped the list for cars with the highest accident rates.

Not sure the car is the cause here. Unless they controlled for all other factors data like this don't mean a lot in my opinion.

Contributing to the demise of the 60-70's era muscle cars were the rising insurance rates due to their incredible acceleration and speed that resulted in high rates of accidents.

I've never driven a Tesla, but a friend took me for a ride in his, my first EV encounter, which included a demo of its nasty acceleration...Wow!

[joebruin77]

To those of you who choose to avoid a Tesla and buy a different EV due to "strong feelings" about the Tesla CEO, I would still buy the Tesla for the following reasons:

1) Tesla employs over 180,000 people, many of whom are very dedicated to Tesla's mission of replacing as many ICE vehicles with EV's as possible. If you choose not to buy a Tesla to punish their CEO, you are also punishing these employees as well.

2) Many legacy automakers and dealerships that are selling both ICE and EV often lack full support for EV's. Some have resentment and anger towards the idea of EV's. For example, many legacy dealerships do not want to provide enough service technicians for EV's, because they don't make nearly as much money from servicing EV's as they do for servicing ICE cars. With Tesla, no such tension between ICE vs EV exists.

3) If you plan to go on a road trip and rely on fast charging, I still recommend Tesla over any other EV brand. When my wife first got her Ford Mustang MachE GT, we wanted to take it on a road trip from Los Angeles to San Diego. We were staying at an AirBnB with no EVSE, so we had to rely on public fast charging. The night before we left, I checked on the available places to charge. The closest Electrify America station had a total of 4 stalls, 2 of which were down. There was an EVGO station somewhat close with 6 stalls, but I had an ongoing problem with the EVGO app finding the station and giving me access. At this point, I was getting nervous.

So then I went into my Tesla and saw that near our AirBNB there were 2 Tesla Superchargers. My Tesla screen displayed in real time that there 7 of 12 stalls available at the first one and 32 out of 40 stalls available at the second one. We decided to leave the MachE at home and take the Tesla.

To those of you who say "But Ford, GM, and other auto makers are gaining access to the Supercharger network!", this does not solve the problem. I received a notification from Ford that the adapter needed for me to charge the MachE at a Tesla supercharger was in production. That was in March of this year. The original shipping date of August was changed to January of 2025. And even when I finally get my adapter and gain access to the Supercharger network for the Ford, not all of the superchargers will be available.

I am no fan of the Tesla CEO. But if you choose to buy a non-Tesla EV, punishing the CEO will be little comfort if you are in line for 4 hours at a 4-stall Electrify America station.

[cmr79]

To those of you who choose to avoid a Tesla and buy a different EV due to "strong feelings" about the Tesla CEO, I would still buy the Tesla for the following reasons:

1) Tesla employs over 180,000 people, many of whom are very dedicated to Tesla's mission of replacing as many ICE vehicles with EV's as possible. If you choose not to buy a Tesla to punish their CEO, you are also punishing these employees as well.

2) Many legacy automakers and dealerships that are selling both ICE and EV often lack full support for EV's. Some have resentment and anger towards the idea of EV's. For example, many legacy dealerships do not want to provide enough service technicians for EV's, because they don't make nearly as much money from servicing EV's as they do for servicing ICE cars. With Tesla, no such tension between ICE vs EV exists.

3) If you plan to go on a road trip and rely on fast charging, I still recommend Tesla over any other EV brand. When my wife first got her Ford Mustang MachE GT, we wanted to take it on a road trip from Los Angeles to San Diego. We were staying at an AirBnB with no EVSE, so we had to rely on public fast charging. The night before we left, I checked on the available places to charge. The closest Electrify America station had a total of 4 stalls, 2 of which were down. There was an EVGO station somewhat close with 6 stalls, but I had an ongoing problem with the EVGO app finding the station and giving me access. At this point, I was getting nervous.

So then I went into my Tesla and saw that near our AirBNB there were 2 Tesla Superchargers. My Tesla screen displayed in real time that there 7 of 12 stalls available at the first one and 32 out of 40 stalls available at the second one. We decided to leave the MachE at home and take the Tesla.

To those of you who say "But Ford, GM, and other auto makers are gaining access to the Supercharger network!", this does not solve the problem. I received a notification from Ford that the adapter needed for me to charge the MachE at a Tesla supercharger was in production. That was in March of this year. The original shipping date of August was changed to January of 2025. And even when I finally get my adapter and gain access to the Supercharger network for the Ford, not all of the superchargers will be available.

I am no fan of the Tesla CEO. But if you choose to buy a non-Tesla EV, punishing the CEO will be little comfort if you are in line for 4 hours at a 4-stall Electrify America station.

These are all valid, logical points...but at the end of the day, they probably aren't going to sway many who are emotionally influenced by their perception of the brand vis a vis the primary brand spokesperson.

Tesla has many unique or best in class advantages in the EV space right now, but they also have some significant downsides. EVs are (unnecessarily) polarizing anyway, and Tesla as still by far the most dominant US EV brand is synonymous with EV disdain for many. Further damage to the brand due to (what I perceived to be ) unforced errors in public messaging from the CEO certainly doesn't help to grow Tesla's appeal or market share and probably hurts resale values to some degree, making it a relevant factor in buying one even to someone who is completely agnostic to said CEO's, shall we say, charisma.

[hunoraut]

1) Tesla employs over 180,000 people, many of whom are very dedicated to Tesla's mission of replacing as many ICE vehicles with EV's as possible. If you choose not to buy a Tesla to punish their CEO, you are also punishing these employees as well.

Also the people constructing the car will be in the US, with a US supply chain. Moreso than any other vehicle from any other brand.

If youre considering auxiliary aspects of the purchase besides the car, thats a big one.

[joebruin77]

1) Tesla employs over 180,000 people, many of whom are very dedicated to Tesla's mission of replacing as many ICE vehicles with EV's as possible. If you choose not to buy a Tesla to punish their CEO, you are also punishing these employees as well.

Also the people constructing the car will be in the US, with a US supply chain. Moreso than any other vehicle from any other brand.

If youre considering auxiliary aspects of the purchase besides the car, thats a big one.

That's a very good point. At one point, I was considering a Polestar 2 and joined the Polestar Owners Forum to get more info. There was quite a bit of hate towards Tesla on that forum. It seemed like quite a few Polestar 2 owners chose Polestar over Tesla as a protest against the Tesla CEO. But in doing so, they basically took work away from American workers and gave it to Chinese auto workers.

[Catalina25]

1) Tesla employs over 180,000 people, many of whom are very dedicated to Tesla's mission of replacing as many ICE vehicles with EV's as possible. If you choose not to buy a Tesla to punish their CEO, you are also punishing these employees as well.

Also the people constructing the car will be in the US, with a US supply chain. Moreso than any other vehicle from any other brand.

If youre considering auxiliary aspects of the purchase besides the car, thats a big one.

Yeah, that same argument was made concerning cars from the Big 3 in the 70's-80's when foreign automakers entered the US market in earnest. Didn't work.

[toomanysidehustles]

To those of you who choose to avoid a Tesla and buy a different EV due to "strong feelings" about the Tesla CEO, I would still buy the Tesla for the following reasons:

I am no fan of the Tesla CEO. But if you choose to buy a non-Tesla EV, punishing the CEO will be little comfort if you are in line for 4 hours at a 4-stall Electrify America station.

^ This

It's kind of amusing at this point the people (i.e. R/elonmusk) that think the man with the best track record creating and building businesses is some how going to come crumbling down in some death spiral if they boycott buy his car. He created the best ev network from the ground up, literally. I just got back from Taiwan and didn't even see a single BYD electric car. Tesla's everywhere. I don't even own or want a Tesla!

[RickBoglehead]

To those of you who choose to avoid a Tesla and buy a different EV due to "strong feelings" about the Tesla CEO, I would still buy the Tesla for the following reasons:

1) Tesla employs over 180,000 people, many of whom are very dedicated to Tesla's mission of replacing as many ICE vehicles with EV's as possible. If you choose not to buy a Tesla to punish their CEO, you are also punishing these employees as well.

Ford Lightning is made in US. GM has several. Tesla works chose to work there... Am I punishing GM workers by buying a Ford?

2) Many legacy automakers and dealerships that are selling both ICE and EV often lack full support for EV's. Some have resentment and anger towards the idea of EV's. For example, many legacy dealerships do not want to provide enough service technicians for EV's, because they don't make nearly as much money from servicing EV's as they do for servicing ICE cars. With Tesla, no such tension between ICE vs EV exists.

3) If you plan to go on a road trip and rely on fast charging, I still recommend Tesla over any other EV brand. When my wife first got her Ford Mustang MachE GT, we wanted to take it on a road trip from Los Angeles to San Diego. We were staying at an AirBnB with no EVSE, so we had to rely on public fast charging. The night before we left, I checked on the available places to charge. The closest Electrify America station had a total of 4 stalls, 2 of which were down. There was an EVGO station somewhat close with 6 stalls, but I had an ongoing problem with the EVGO app finding the station and giving me access. At this point, I was getting nervous.

So then I went into my Tesla and saw that near our AirBNB there were 2 Tesla Superchargers. My Tesla screen displayed in real time that there 7 of 12 stalls available at the first one and 32 out of 40 stalls available at the second one. We decided to leave the MachE at home and take the Tesla.

To those of you who say "But Ford, GM, and other auto makers are gaining access to the Supercharger network!", this does not solve the problem. I received a notification from Ford that the adapter needed for me to charge the MachE at a Tesla supercharger was in production. That was in March of this year. The original shipping date of August was changed to January of 2025. And even when I finally get my adapter and gain access to the Supercharger network for the Ford, not all of the superchargers will be available.

Got my Ford adapter. Multiple aftermarket adapters exist. I have been charging on the Tesla Supercharger network since end of March... Nearly 18,000 Superchargers.

I am no fan of the Tesla CEO. But if you choose to buy a non-Tesla EV, punishing the CEO will be little comfort if you are in line for 4 hours at a 4-stall Electrify America station.

Most of your arguments are invalid.

[RickBoglehead]

To those of you who choose to avoid a Tesla and buy a different EV due to "strong feelings" about the Tesla CEO, I would still buy the Tesla for the following reasons:

I am no fan of the Tesla CEO. But if you choose to buy a non-Tesla EV, punishing the CEO will be little comfort if you are in line for 4 hours at a 4-stall Electrify America station.

^ This

It's kind of amusing at this point the people (i.e. R/elonmusk) that think the man with the best track record creating and building businesses is some how going to come crumbling down in some death spiral if they boycott buy his car. He created the best ev network from the ground up, literally. I just got back from Taiwan and didn't even see a single BYD electric car. Tesla's everywhere. I don't even own or want a Tesla!

You do know that Elon Musk was not a founder of Tesla, right?

[toomanysidehustles]

You do know that Elon Musk was not a founder of Tesla, right?

Where did I say founder?

How far did the other Tesla CEO's get and how far did they take it?

https://www.historyoasis.com/post/tesla-ceo-history

[YeahBuddy]

You're being quoted $5k/yr for insurance? There's got to be a glitch there. My Model 3LR is $100/mo.

Why not get a 2020ish one for like 20k?

Where? If this was true, I'd be happy to trade down from my 2022 and pocket the difference.

Google search. I just found 3 LR near me for ~ $20k. But it appears most are @ $25k.

[joebruin77]

To those of you who choose to avoid a Tesla and buy a different EV due to "strong feelings" about the Tesla CEO, I would still buy the Tesla for the following reasons:

1) Tesla employs over 180,000 people, many of whom are very dedicated to Tesla's mission of replacing as many ICE vehicles with EV's as possible. If you choose not to buy a Tesla to punish their CEO, you are also punishing these employees as well.

Ford Lightning is made in US. GM has several. Tesla works chose to work there... Am I punishing GM workers by buying a Ford?

2) Many legacy automakers and dealerships that are selling both ICE and EV often lack full support for EV's. Some have resentment and anger towards the idea of EV's. For example, many legacy dealerships do not want to provide enough service technicians for EV's, because they don't make nearly as much money from servicing EV's as they do for servicing ICE cars. With Tesla, no such tension between ICE vs EV exists.

3) If you plan to go on a road trip and rely on fast charging, I still recommend Tesla over any other EV brand. When my wife first got her Ford Mustang MachE GT, we wanted to take it on a road trip from Los Angeles to San Diego. We were staying at an AirBnB with no EVSE, so we had to rely on public fast charging. The night before we left, I checked on the available places to charge. The closest Electrify America station had a total of 4 stalls, 2 of which were down. There was an EVGO station somewhat close with 6 stalls, but I had an ongoing problem with the EVGO app finding the station and giving me access. At this point, I was getting nervous.

So then I went into my Tesla and saw that near our AirBNB there were 2 Tesla Superchargers. My Tesla screen displayed in real time that there 7 of 12 stalls available at the first one and 32 out of 40 stalls available at the second one. We decided to leave the MachE at home and take the Tesla.

To those of you who say "But Ford, GM, and other auto makers are gaining access to the Supercharger network!", this does not solve the problem. I received a notification from Ford that the adapter needed for me to charge the MachE at a Tesla supercharger was in production. That was in March of this year. The original shipping date of August was changed to January of 2025. And even when I finally get my adapter and gain access to the Supercharger network for the Ford, not all of the superchargers will be available.

Got my Ford adapter. Multiple aftermarket adapters exist. I have been charging on the Tesla Supercharger network since end of March... Nearly 18,000 Superchargers.

I am no fan of the Tesla CEO. But if you choose to buy a non-Tesla EV, punishing the CEO will be little comfort if you are in line for 4 hours at a 4-stall Electrify America station.

Most of your arguments are invalid.

I disagree with you. You misinterpreted my arguments and conclusions.

I am not saying that everyone should only buy Teslas. If you like Ford or GM EV's, go ahead and buy one. All I am saying is that if you initially prefer a Tesla but you decide not to buy one mainly to protest against the CEO, your protest effects a lot of dedicated workers. And some alternative EV choices (not all) benefit foreign workers instead of American workers. Even if you buy an EV from an American car company, that doesn't necessarily mean your car was built in America. Yes, your Ford Lightning was built in Michigan, but my wife's Ford MachE was built in Mexico, as one example.

Congrats on getting your Ford adapter, but there are many Ford owners who have not yet received theirs. Just today on the MachE owners forum there was a discussion about how only 20,000 adapters have been sent so far. Many owners who ordered their adapter back in February of this year still have not received them. Yes, you could spend extra money on a third-party adapter. But if you own a Tesla, that expense is not required. And that's great that you have enjoyed using a Tesla Supercharger. But not all Superchargers are accessible by Ford owners. It varies by region. Near my home, I can identify at least 3 supercharger locations that are "Tesla only" and do not appear in the Ford supercharger map. There are at least 3,000-4,000 Superchargers in North America that are still Tesla only. I predict that as more and more non-Tesla EV's gain access to the Supercharger network, more and more Superchargers will get crowded. There may come a point where more and more Superchargers are converted to Tesla only. Time will tell.

Finally, one other reason I prefer my Tesla over my wife's Ford MachE, the technology of the Tesla is much more advanced and reliable. For example, when you walk away from the MachE, sometimes it will lock itself and sometimes it won't. The Tesla autolocks reliably every time. On my Tesla app, I can do things like reliably adjust the amperage I am charging at or check the current temperature of my interior cabin. Neither function is available on the Ford app.

[sink]

My two cents as first time Model 3 buyer, bought 2023 Model 3 one year ago:
1. We wanted to replace our Prius with another Prius in 2023. Could not find any available cars without ordering one at MSRP +
The model 3 was almost same price as Prius after tax rebate.
2. Our 6 month premium for 3 cars, including a 2023 Model 3, with TWO TEENAGERS on the policy is $1,400. Four drivers, 3 cars, one is Model 3.
This was no more than our insurance cost prior to having Model 3. We live in Cincinnati, OH.
3. We have had the Model 3 one year, wife are very happy with it. No quality or repair issues at all. I constantly look at the deals on used M3's and
think about selling our Camry Hybrid. We have the cheapest model 3, not long range. I did not see the advantage of 50 more miles of
range for thousands extra in cost. With our camry hybrid we can use that for long drives.
4. Have yet to see noticeable wear on tires.
5. We installed 240 plug for about $800 on side of house with driveway. I chose 20 amps only, since going 30 or 40 amps would have meant
new electical panel. We get plenty of charge with only 20 amps/ 240 volts.
6. I think we like it most because it feels very solid. You can feel the extra weight of the car and it feels solid and safe while driving.

If there was supply of Prius models on car lots a year ago, I dont think we would have bought it, but now I am ready to get another one.

[kgw]

OP,

Wait until the end of a quarter. I have aggressively shopped the last week successfully three times to get a heavy discounted new Tesla. My favorite website is Tesla-info.com

[PoorPlumber]

Most of the time there are comparable, alternative, gas/diesel/hybrid vehicles that will cost less and give a reasonably similar experience.

If cost is the primary deciding factor, then don't buy it.

But cost shouldn't maybe always be the primary factor in the decision.

If it's in your budget, does what you want, and makes you happy, get it.

There aren't real justifications, especially from a cost perspective, for buying Ferrari's. But people them.

[Valuethinker]

While watching the local news this morning, they had a segment on vehicular accident rates within the state and Tesla (with Subaru?) topped the list for cars with the highest accident rates.

Not sure the car is the cause here. Unless they controlled for all other factors data like this don't mean a lot in my opinion.

Contributing to the demise of the 60-70's era muscle cars were the rising insurance rates due to their incredible acceleration and speed that resulted in high rates of accidents.

I've never driven a Tesla, but a friend took me for a ride in his, my first EV encounter, which included a demo of its nasty acceleration...Wow!

Irony of ironies.

I believe it is the case (I read it, but not sure where now) that the average sedan now outperforms a 1969 muscle car. Horsepower and acceleration have increased a *lot* in cars since the 1970s. Also they are lighter (ICE cars) -- aluminium body parts etc. Much of that improvement has been sucked up in much bigger cars (look at a comparison of the original Austin Mini with the one BMW sells now). Or into SUVs & 4 person pickups (can't remember term for one with a dual cab?).

I think what killed the muscle cars was:

- insurance rates, as you say - they were bought by young, male drivers. That's why they sell for so much now - Baby Boomers remembering their youth. Young male drivers have far and away the highest accident rates.*

- fuel economy. There was an oil crisis in 1973. And another in 1979. Gasoline became something like 10% (?) of the average household budget (long run average in North America is 4%). Also the US Corporate Average Fuel Economy laws kicked in in the late 1970s and into the 1980s, and these became a disadvantage for these types of cars, for North American manufacturers who lacked offsetting cars in the small/ high fuel economy category

* in the medical world, they used to be nicknamed [organ] "donors". However automotive safety has improved so much that there is now a shortage of organ donations by this route.

[Valuethinker]

I just got back from Taiwan and didn't even see a single BYD electric car. Tesla's everywhere. I don't even own or want a Tesla!

Set aside Musk and opinions thereof.

BYD is a Peoples Republic of China company.

Taiwan's independence is disputed by PRC.

So. Did you see many mainland Chinese made cars or car brands in Taiwan at all? I wouldn't think they would be particularly keen to have PRC vehicles?

Being "secret squirrel" paranoid, a PRC-made EV could be programmed to be an almost perfect spy. Why would Taiwan take the risk on that?

[lazydavid]

There are at least 3,000-4,000 Superchargers in North America that are still Tesla only. I predict that as more and more non-Tesla EV's gain access to the Supercharger network, more and more Superchargers will get crowded. There may come a point where more and more Superchargers are converted to Tesla only. Time will tell.

I would be extremely surprised to see that happen, as it would mean they started building/installing really old chargers again. The 150kW V2 superchargers (discontinued in 2019) are Tesla-only because they use the proprietary Tesla protocol. V3 and V4 use the CCS protocol and are compatible with all brands. There are no plans to "upgrade" V2 chargers to support CCS, but they will all be replaced with newer models over time.

[RickBoglehead]

There are at least 3,000-4,000 Superchargers in North America that are still Tesla only. I predict that as more and more non-Tesla EV's gain access to the Supercharger network, more and more Superchargers will get crowded. There may come a point where more and more Superchargers are converted to Tesla only. Time will tell.

I would be extremely surprised to see that happen, as it would mean they started building/installing really old chargers again. The 150kW V2 superchargers (discontinued in 2019) are Tesla-only because they use the proprietary Tesla protocol. V3 and V4 use the CCS protocol and are compatible with all brands. There are no plans to "upgrade" V2 chargers to support CCS, but they will all be replaced with newer models over time.

It is nonsensical.

When Ford announced the deal, the number was around 12,000. By the time they were approved on Feb 29th, it was over 15,000. When GM was approved last week, the number was 17,800. The number is growing by the day.

In early 2023, when Musk cut the deal with the US government to put in approximately 3,500 Magic Dock locations (no adapter needed), he said he would double the network by the end of 2024.

So, in short, there is no validity to the claim that less will be opened up.