New York City trip report and a question

[stuper1]

Just got back from 11 days in NYC. First time there for us Californians. Wow, it was awesome. We only got to about 1/3 of the things on our wish list of things to see and do. We can't wait to go back someday hopefully not too far in the future. We went all over from 125th Street south and into Brooklyn and never once felt unsafe on the streets, subways, city buses, etc. The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones. I want to say thanks to everyone here who gave input to help us plan our trip. I'm still shaking my head in amusement though at one person who said that 11 days was far too long, because you only need 3 or 4 days to do NYC. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I have a question. It seemed like almost every city block has temporary steel scaffolding covering the sidewalks on one or often several sides of the buildings. What's the deal with that? I mean it was everywhere. All I could think of is that maybe there was a Covid-era stimulus program to renovate the exteriors of older buildings that is still being implemented, or something like that. Just wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

I'll say one other thing which I know won't be popular, but maybe it will help some first-time visitors. Every guide to NYC that I read said to avoid Times Square or at most go for 15 minutes and then get away. Now for me, that would work just fine, but for my wife, she absolutely loved Times Square and wanted to go back many times to feel the energy and excitement and see all the video screens and everything. Of course, we were in the area anyway to see Broadway shows and jazz shows in the evenings, so it worked out great for us. Just another example I guess of different strokes for different folks.

[Harry Livermore]

I have a question. It seemed like almost every city block has temporary steel scaffolding covering the sidewalks on one or often several sides of the buildings. What's the deal with that? I mean it was everywhere. All I could think of is that maybe there was a Covid-era stimulus program to renovate the exteriors of older buildings that is still being implemented, or something like that. Just wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

Because of some very serious incidents in the past of cornices and other decorative elements on older buildings coming loose from neglect and deferred maintenance, and falling on people, the city enacted a requirement that all buildings be inspected on a regular basis and any deficiencies addressed. I think the inspection is every 5 years. You can do a little Googling if you like; there are a few notable incidents, including one in the 1990s when half of the brick facade on a very tall building (I think in Times Square) sloughed off (although in that case it was discovered that the contractor used many fewer masonry clips than was required) Several people have been killed or seriously injured over the years.
This seems especially important in the case of older buildings with masonry elements and brick. Scaffolding ("sheds" in local parlance) are erected so workers can do repairs, and to protect pedestrians below. I have heard that, as long as a shed is up, fines are suspended. And it seems as if bad actors/ owners will leave the sheds in place for years to avoid the cost of repairs. And, with strict requirements for inspections and repairs, it also means that contractors have all the work they can do (and then some) and it might take a building owner years to get the repairs done. But I don't really know much about it beyond chit-chat with New Yorker friends, and some online articles.
It makes walking around difficult at times, as street vendors sometimes chain tables, hand trucks, and other stuff to the sheds... as well as cyclists. Plus it makes for a gloomy walk when block after block is covered. Although they are great on a rainy day!
Full disclosure: while I know the city very well, and have spent the last 40 years in and around it, I am a suburbanite homeowner nearby and have not had to deal with the requirements personally.
Cheers

[muffins14]

I have a question. It seemed like almost every city block has temporary steel scaffolding covering the sidewalks on one or often several sides of the buildings. What's the deal with that? I mean it was everywhere. All I could think of is that maybe there was a Covid-era stimulus program to renovate the exteriors of older buildings that is still being implemented, or something like that. Just wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

It is also a scam and a costly one:
https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor ... inesses#/0

Buildings will put up scaffolding if there is a facade issue as described by Henry, and

a) It can be cheaper to leave the scaffolding up than to fix the problem, and the city is lax on enforcing rules to make the problem get fixed, so the scaffolding stags up for far too long

b) Scaffolding companies are also happy to rip you off, so you may "need" scaffolding for like 1-2 weeks for a project, but the scaffolding may only rent it by the month, and then it's time for them to come get it and they say "oh how about next week" oh sorry forgot about vacation. oh sorry my guy is sick. Oh hey how's next month? They makes their money and you pays the bills

Glad you enjoyed your trip to my city

[BrooklynInvest]

I've been in New York for more than 30 years. I've honestly never heard of scaffolding being a scam. In my area there was an infamous example of the city forcing a building to erect scaffolding as a result of a decaying facade, but that took more than 10 years of complaints to make happen.

By me scaffolding tends to be the result of renovation, which can take a while. The upside of property prices increasing is the desire for new owners to do large scale upgrades. Efficient windows, central AC and such are requirements for top dollar prices/rents and often require scaffolding.

So glad you enjoyed your trip OP. The political narrative of urban areas like New York being hotbeds of violence I suppose keep the people that believe that nonsense away. Granted, our mayor did just get indicted by the Feds so clearly we're not perfect!

[alpenglow]

The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones.

[yankees60]

Just got back from 11 days in NYC. First time there for us Californians. Wow, it was awesome. We only got to about 1/3 of the things on our wish list of things to see and do. We can't wait to go back someday hopefully not too far in the future. We went all over from 125th Street south and into Brooklyn and never once felt unsafe on the streets, subways, city buses, etc. The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones. I want to say thanks to everyone here who gave input to help us plan our trip. I'm still shaking my head in amusement though at one person who said that 11 days was far too long, because you only need 3 or 4 days to do NYC. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I have a question. It seemed like almost every city block has temporary steel scaffolding covering the sidewalks on one or often several sides of the buildings. What's the deal with that? I mean it was everywhere. All I could think of is that maybe there was a Covid-era stimulus program to renovate the exteriors of older buildings that is still being implemented, or something like that. Just wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

I'll say one other thing which I know won't be popular, but maybe it will help some first-time visitors. Every guide to NYC that I read said to avoid Times Square or at most go for 15 minutes and then get away. Now for me, that would work just fine, but for my wife, she absolutely loved Times Square and wanted to go back many times to feel the energy and excitement and see all the video screens and everything. Of course, we were in the area anyway to see Broadway shows and jazz shows in the evenings, so it worked out great for us. Just another example I guess of different strokes for different folks.

I live in Massachusetts. From the late 90s to the early 2000s I'd oftentimes go to Yankee Stadium for entire Yankee / Red Sox series.

I'd usually be taking kids with me.

After the Saturday afternoon game was over we'd always go to Time Square for the rest of the night (into the AM). Everyone always had a great time there.

[BarbBrooklyn]

Google either Local law 10 NYC or Grace Gold.

Grace was a 17 year old Barnard freshman who was struck by falling masonry in 1979. Her sister, Lori Gold, Barnard '78 (and my friend) worked tirelessly to get that law passed.

[UM70]

Glad you enjoyed your trip!

I'm re-settled back in the midwest where I was born and raised but I lived in NYC for 45 years. If you want to dig into the details of the facade upkeep requirement it's Local Law 11 described on NYC.gov

As property owners it was an expense we gladly paid as sadly we had first hand experience with the problem it attempts to solve.

Our coop in downtown Brooklyn was two blocks from a building at Court and Livingston that killed two people. In the first incident a person walking by the building on Court was hit by a piece of the facade that fell. Later, when the workers were repairing the problems with the facade, a piece was accidently knocked loose, bounced away from the building on the way down and hit a person a block away at Court and Joralemon.

On a brighter note, yes, definitely, Times Square is bright and lively. I worked nearby and when I got off work at 6 a.m. I would walk through Times Square on my way to the subway. It was always boost to take in the sights.

[JordanIB]

As others have noted, you become used to certain building having scaffolding up for an eternity. When scaffolding went up at my apartment building recently, I was mentally prepared to live with it for months and month. I was honestly shocked when it came down after just a few weeks once some facade work was done.

There have been various efforts over the years - mostly unsuccessful as can be seen by walking the streets - to beautify the scaffolding.

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2 ... to-artwork

[WS1]

I remember some people that were a part of urbanism and transit twitter back in the day always complaining about how the city was super lax about getting people to do the repairs and take down the sheds- letting them linger for years.

[folkher0]

As others have noted, you become used to certain building having scaffolding up for an eternity. When scaffolding went up at my apartment building recently, I was mentally prepared to live with it for months and month. I was honestly shocked when it came down after just a few weeks once some facade work was done.

There have been various efforts over the years - mostly unsuccessful as can be seen by walking the streets - to beautify the scaffolding.

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2 ... to-artwork

scaffolding in front of one of our offices was up for 5 years. It came down 2 weeks ago. I had no idea there was a restaurant next door.

[investorpeter]

It’s called Local Law 11. The reason why sidewalk “scaffolding” (technically, “sidewalk sheds”, which are not to be confused with the outdoor dining sheds that popped up everywhere during COVID) are more prevalent than ever before is because the city now requires more detailed and laborious inspections, which are then more likely to identify defects that need costly remediation according to the Department of Buildings. Local Law 11 requires every single brick of every building over 6 stories in NYC to be manually inspected. In the past, this could be done by binoculars. Now it is required for a person to physically inspect each brick using a suspended platform or cherry picker. Furthermore, the cost of needed remediations could be exorbitant.

While calling it a scam is a bit harsh, the entire Local Law 11 industry does remind me of a racket in my opinion, between the Department of Buildings, City Council and the billion dollar contracting industry that performs inspections and repairs. The condo and coop boards, and other building owners, are the victims of this racket, who then pass on their increased costs of ownership to renters. Some condo and coop boards simply cannot afford the repairs, so the sheds are the only option. You often hear the media blaming scofflaw building owners who refuse to pay for repairs, but the continually increasing costs of inspections and repairs are rarely mentioned in popular media, except in specialty journals. The fact of the matter is that Local Law 10 and now 11 have been around since the 70s. But the number of sidewalk sheds in NYC now are higher than ever. That should be a clue that there might be something wrong with the law.

For context: https://www.habitatmag.com/Publication ... pair-Costs

[London]

It’s genuinely nice to hear the perception of NYC from someone seeing it for the first time. I’m near Times Square every day and hate it intensely. But hearing a nice account like this reminds me of why some people like it.

I also think the reputation for rudeness is overblown. People are direct but generally don’t care what others are doing.

Whenever I see a tour bus, I try to give them the finger. Not out of anger, but so some midwesterner will go home and have a story to tell. I think that’s funny, in a New York way.

[rob]

It’s called Local Law 11. The reason why sidewalk “scaffolding” (technically, “sidewalk sheds”, which are not to be confused with the outdoor dining sheds that popped up everywhere during COVID) are more prevalent than ever before is because the city now requires more detailed and laborious inspections, which are then more likely to identify defects that need costly remediation according to the Department of Buildings. Local Law 11 requires every single brick of every building over 6 stories in NYC to be manually inspected. In the past, this could be done by binoculars. Now it is required for a person to physically inspect each brick using a suspended platform or cherry picker. Furthermore, the cost of needed remediations could be exorbitant.

While calling it a scam is a bit harsh, the entire Local Law 11 industry does remind me of a racket in my opinion, between the Department of Buildings, City Council and the billion dollar contracting industry that performs inspections and repairs. The condo and coop boards, and other building owners, are the victims of this racket, who then pass on their increased costs of ownership to renters. Some condo and coop boards simply cannot afford the repairs, so the sheds are the only option. You often hear the media blaming scofflaw building owners who refuse to pay for repairs, but the continually increasing costs of inspections and repairs are rarely mentioned in popular media, except in specialty journals. The fact of the matter is that Local Law 10 and now 11 have been around since the 70s. But the number of sidewalk sheds in NYC now are higher than ever. That should be a clue that there might be something wrong with the law.

For context: https://www.habitatmag.com/Publication ... pair-Costs

Yeah this is a big part of the permanent "tmp" scaffolding. It's a real shame and a local joke.

[Valuethinker]

Just got back from 11 days in NYC. First time there for us Californians. Wow, it was awesome. We only got to about 1/3 of the things on our wish list of things to see and do. We can't wait to go back someday hopefully not too far in the future. We went all over from 125th Street south and into Brooklyn and never once felt unsafe on the streets, subways, city buses, etc. The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones. I want to say thanks to everyone here who gave input to help us plan our trip. I'm still shaking my head in amusement though at one person who said that 11 days was far too long, because you only need 3 or 4 days to do NYC. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I live in London, and yet I find New York endlessly interesting and fascinating.

[warning crude stereotype of Americans being deployed] New Yorkers? They don't say "Have a nice day" as much as other places. They can be brusque and efficient, and on occasion they do sarcasm for America. But this is big city stuff - we found them to be helpful and friendly, on the whole. (I remember in the 1980s, visiting, it was a harsher and more paranoid city, then). It's not a colder city than other big cities in the world I have visited.

I'll say one other thing which I know won't be popular, but maybe it will help some first-time visitors. Every guide to NYC that I read said to avoid Times Square or at most go for 15 minutes and then get away. Now for me, that would work just fine, but for my wife, she absolutely loved Times Square and wanted to go back many times to feel the energy and excitement and see all the video screens and everything. Of course, we were in the area anyway to see Broadway shows and jazz shows in the evenings, so it worked out great for us. Just another example I guess of different strokes for different folks.

It's a city that screams, unapologetically "City". That's rarer in America than in other countries (in America the cities tend to sprawl, with huge suburbs and highways). So if one can take NYC on its own terms, it's really quite special.

The only city I could really liken it to was Shanghai, for that level of energy. (Also perhaps Mumbai in India -- I don't know it though). London is languid by comparison. I have never visited Tokyo.

[snic]

The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones.

Obviously the OP didn't do any driving.

[inverter]

Whenever I see a tour bus, I try to give them the finger. Not out of anger, but so some midwesterner will go home and have a story to tell. I think that’s funny, in a New York way.

I genuinely love this haha.

[stan1]

Just got back from 11 days in NYC. First time there for us Californians. Wow, it was awesome. We only got to about 1/3 of the things on our wish list of things to see and do. We can't wait to go back someday hopefully not too far in the future. We went all over from 125th Street south and into Brooklyn and never once felt unsafe on the streets, subways, city buses, etc. The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones. I want to say thanks to everyone here who gave input to help us plan our trip. I'm still shaking my head in amusement though at one person who said that 11 days was far too long, because you only need 3 or 4 days to do NYC. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

We agree, we stayed 10 nights in October 2019 and had a great time, plenty of things we didn't get a chance to do but we did enjoy some such as a day at the Botanical Gardens in the Bronx and a long walk around Prospect Park and Park Slope (among many other things). Many other things left undone for another trip (or experience them again in some cases such as the High Line which we did 3 times).

Have always found New Yorkers very friendly. Have always found the city and transit to be walkable and safe, with any exceptions being rare just as in any other city or town. Last time we stayed near Penn Station and Herald Square because we arrived via Newark and wanted to walk to our hotel and also that area is well connected to multiple subway lines. There was also an Ess-a-bagel around the corner.

[JordanIB]

It’s genuinely nice to hear the perception of NYC from someone seeing it for the first time. I’m near Times Square every day and hate it intensely. But hearing a nice account like this reminds me of why some people like it.

Agree. Nice to hear about a real experience taking the subway around the city and it being absolutely fine (as I would expect). Contrary to a lot of the ridiculous fear-mongering that is often parroted.

[stuper1]

The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones.

Obviously the OP didn't do any driving.

You are right about that. In 11 days on the ground, we witnessed two road-rage incidents on city streets. In the first, the driver in front got out of his car screaming and cursing and charged back at the honking driver a few cars behind but changed his mind when he saw he was being filmed. In the second, the parties in front were challenged to fight, which they obliged by getting out and violently fighting on the sidewalk with two other parties for a few minutes before jumping back into their truck and leaving. It was a bit sickening to watch actually, but it certainly didn't seem prudent to try to intervene. So, yeah, I have no desire to drive in NYC, but no need either given the excellent subway, bus, light-rail system. I kept marveling also at how shallow the subways are generally. My previous experiences with subways were in cities where you had to go down a long ways to get to the trains.

[Valuethinker]

You are right about that. In 11 days on the ground, we witnessed two road-rage incidents on city streets. In the first, the driver in front got out of his car screaming and cursing and charged back at the honking driver a few cars behind but changed his mind when he saw he was being filmed. In the second, the parties in front were challenged to fight, which they obliged by getting out and violently fighting on the sidewalk with two other parties for a few minutes before jumping back into their truck and leaving. It was a bit sickening to watch actually, but it certainly didn't seem prudent to try to intervene.

Road rage is sadly no longer limited to New York City. It seems everywhere now (thinking UK and Canada as well).

So, yeah, I have no desire to drive in NYC, but no need either given the excellent subway, bus, light-rail system.

I forget the numbers, But I think I am right in saying NYC has half of all public transit journeys pa *of the whole USA*. And, unsurprisingly, also the only city where a majority commutes by public transport.

I kept marveling also at how shallow the subways are generally. My previous experiences with subways were in cities where you had to go down a long ways to get to the trains.

I haven't read the history of the NYC subway system

BUT my intuition is this is to do with the rectilinear road grid in Manhattan (and in other places, with some adjustments). Basically you use "cut and cover" rather than tunneling, and it's a quick and easy job to do it. As long as you go up the streets, no fights about property rights or damage due to tunneling.

NYC is granite not far below the surface, so that would be expensive to dig or tunnel through.** London is primarily clay (see below) so less so.

NYC also had elevated trains (L-trains) like Chicago. (You may remember one features in the plot of the classic movie & play "12 Angry Men"?). Unfortunately conventional wisdom in the early 1950s had them as unsightly, noisy (true) and "not modern" and they were pulled down.

London (or Paris) were much older cities, and building the Tube (Underground) or the Metro required extensive tunneling. My understanding is that one of the reasons lines like the Piccadilly Line (dark blue on the LU map) bob and weave as much as they do is that they couldn't get the tunneling rights under a number of buildings!

The deepest Tube station, Google tells me is Hampstead Tube Station, near the eponymous Hampstead Heath, and it is 192 foot below surface level.*

It also tells me the deepest NYC subway station is 171 feet at 191st St (Washington Heights, at the top of Manhattan). So not so different.

* one of the reasons South London (ie south of the River Thames) lacks as many Tube lines, and is more reliant on rail lines, is that the tunneling technology in the late 19th/ early 20th C wasn't up to dealing with the silt underlying much of S London. North London sits on London Clay which was relatively easy to tunnel through and reinforce.

** the same factor that makes Manhattan a great place for skyscrapers. You don't have to dig very far down before you have the bedrock to rest the structure on.

[stuper1]

Very interesting points, Valuethinker. My recollection of the Tube is that the average depth is much deeper than in NYC, even though the maximum depths may be similar.

I did not know about the shallow bedrock in NYC, and its connection to easy foundation building for skyscrapers. A couple things stood out to me in Central Park. One of them was the abundance of rock outcroppings, which greatly contributes to the scenery, and which I had no idea would be present. The rock outcroppings are indicative of shallow bedrock of course, unless I'm greatly mistaken. The other thing that stood out was that the elevation goes up and down much more than I expected. For some reason, I always pictured Central Park as fairly flat. The overall reality of the park was much, much better than my expectation with the variety of vegetation, the hills, the rock outcroppings, the water features, the stonework on the bridges, and the maze of paved and unpaved trails.

[folkher0]

The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones.

Obviously the OP didn't do any driving.

You are right about that. In 11 days on the ground, we witnessed two road-rage incidents on city streets. In the first, the driver in front got out of his car screaming and cursing and charged back at the honking driver a few cars behind but changed his mind when he saw he was being filmed. In the second, the parties in front were challenged to fight, which they obliged by getting out and violently fighting on the sidewalk with two other parties for a few minutes before jumping back into their truck and leaving. It was a bit sickening to watch actually, but it certainly didn't seem prudent to try to intervene. So, yeah, I have no desire to drive in NYC, but no need either given the excellent subway, bus, light-rail system. I kept marveling also at how shallow the subways are generally. My previous experiences with subways were in cities where you had to go down a long ways to get to the trains.

I’d be lying if I told you I never got out of my car and yelled at a stranger. Driving in manhattan turns you into kind of a monster.

[muffins14]

Very interesting points, Valuethinker. My recollection of the Tube is that the average depth is much deeper than in NYC, even though the maximum depths may be similar.

I did not know about the shallow bedrock in NYC, and its connection to easy foundation building for skyscrapers. A couple things stood out to me in Central Park. One of them was the abundance of rock outcroppings, which greatly contributes to the scenery, and which I had no idea would be present. The rock outcroppings are indicative of shallow bedrock of course, unless I'm greatly mistaken. The other thing that stood out was that the elevation goes up and down much more than I expected. For some reason, I always pictured Central Park as fairly flat. The overall reality of the park was much, much better than my expectation with the variety of vegetation, the hills, the rock outcroppings, the water features, the stonework on the bridges, and the maze of paved and unpaved trails.

A fun fact is that all of Central Park was man made / planned. While the huge rocks were there already, all the hills and vegetation and meadows you like were planned in detail. 500,000 trees planted!

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/vid ... -by-nature

[Valuethinker]

The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones.

Obviously the OP didn't do any driving.

You are right about that. In 11 days on the ground, we witnessed two road-rage incidents on city streets. In the first, the driver in front got out of his car screaming and cursing and charged back at the honking driver a few cars behind but changed his mind when he saw he was being filmed. In the second, the parties in front were challenged to fight, which they obliged by getting out and violently fighting on the sidewalk with two other parties for a few minutes before jumping back into their truck and leaving. It was a bit sickening to watch actually, but it certainly didn't seem prudent to try to intervene. So, yeah, I have no desire to drive in NYC, but no need either given the excellent subway, bus, light-rail system. I kept marveling also at how shallow the subways are generally. My previous experiences with subways were in cities where you had to go down a long ways to get to the trains.

I’d be lying if I told you I never got out of my car and yelled at a stranger. Driving in manhattan turns you into kind of a monster.

I had a South African flatmate. He told me in SA you wouldn't even dip your lights at someone on the road, because they might pull out a gun and open fire. So that's one antidote to road rage.

London I have had people jump out of their cars and threaten me. A lot of young people in particular pack knives. It's not a good look to get into that kind of argument.

Psychologists have studied this. Driving a car means we are, psychologically, taking our "home" with us - our "safe space". Thus, when it is threatened, we get particularly defensive and aggressive. Much like a friendly dog off a lead, can turn into a vicious one if on a lead or penned up at home. We are animals, underneath the veneer - at least when under stress.

The problem is that this gets permissioned in some environments - a big city, particularly a big *pressured* city is a classic for this. I would contrast the typical Toronto driving experience (hostile, awful) with what I experienced in Vancouver BC (laid back, courteous) although I am not sure if that is still true of the West Coast.

Just media coverage of "road rage" incidents can accentuate road rage frequency.

[folkher0]

Obviously the OP didn't do any driving.

You are right about that. In 11 days on the ground, we witnessed two road-rage incidents on city streets. In the first, the driver in front got out of his car screaming and cursing and charged back at the honking driver a few cars behind but changed his mind when he saw he was being filmed. In the second, the parties in front were challenged to fight, which they obliged by getting out and violently fighting on the sidewalk with two other parties for a few minutes before jumping back into their truck and leaving. It was a bit sickening to watch actually, but it certainly didn't seem prudent to try to intervene. So, yeah, I have no desire to drive in NYC, but no need either given the excellent subway, bus, light-rail system. I kept marveling also at how shallow the subways are generally. My previous experiences with subways were in cities where you had to go down a long ways to get to the trains.

I’d be lying if I told you I never got out of my car and yelled at a stranger. Driving in manhattan turns you into kind of a monster.

I had a South African flatmate. He told me in SA you wouldn't even dip your lights at someone on the road, because they might pull out a gun and open fire. So that's one antidote to road rage.

London I have had people jump out of their cars and threaten me. A lot of young people in particular pack knives. It's not a good look to get into that kind of argument.

Psychologists have studied this. Driving a car means we are, psychologically, taking our "home" with us - our "safe space". Thus, when it is threatened, we get particularly defensive and aggressive. Much like a friendly dog off a lead, can turn into a vicious one if on a lead or penned up at home. We are animals, underneath the veneer - at least when under stress.

The problem is that this gets permissioned in some environments - a big city, particularly a big *pressured* city is a classic for this. I would contrast the typical Toronto driving experience (hostile, awful) with what I experienced in Vancouver BC (laid back, courteous) although I am not sure if that is still true of the West Coast.

Just media coverage of "road rage" incidents can accentuate road rage frequency.

Somehow in NYC it doesn't feel like a big deal to yell at someone about a traffic dispute. I think its just part of the culture here. I think Seinfeld did a bit about it. In Chicago I would never.

Solution is not to drive.

[lepegasus]

Just got back from 11 days in NYC. First time there for us Californians. Wow, it was awesome. We only got to about 1/3 of the things on our wish list of things to see and do. We can't wait to go back someday hopefully not too far in the future. We went all over from 125th Street south and into Brooklyn and never once felt unsafe on the streets, subways, city buses, etc. The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones. I want to say thanks to everyone here who gave input to help us plan our trip. I'm still shaking my head in amusement though at one person who said that 11 days was far too long, because you only need 3 or 4 days to do NYC. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I have a question. It seemed like almost every city block has temporary steel scaffolding covering the sidewalks on one or often several sides of the buildings. What's the deal with that? I mean it was everywhere. All I could think of is that maybe there was a Covid-era stimulus program to renovate the exteriors of older buildings that is still being implemented, or something like that. Just wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

I'll say one other thing which I know won't be popular, but maybe it will help some first-time visitors. Every guide to NYC that I read said to avoid Times Square or at most go for 15 minutes and then get away. Now for me, that would work just fine, but for my wife, she absolutely loved Times Square and wanted to go back many times to feel the energy and excitement and see all the video screens and everything. Of course, we were in the area anyway to see Broadway shows and jazz shows in the evenings, so it worked out great for us. Just another example I guess of different strokes for different folks.

I am convinced that the 'rudeness' of New Yorkers is actually the transplants who pretend as if they must be rude now that they've moved to NYC. I grew up in NJ and spent a few years in NYC. I never once felt animosity from New Yorkers. The only time I was given a cold shoulder or hard time was from younger transplants who had moved to the city and embraced the perceived New Yorker "attitude."

[Valuethinker]

Just got back from 11 days in NYC. First time there for us Californians. Wow, it was awesome. We only got to about 1/3 of the things on our wish list of things to see and do. We can't wait to go back someday hopefully not too far in the future. We went all over from 125th Street south and into Brooklyn and never once felt unsafe on the streets, subways, city buses, etc. The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones. I want to say thanks to everyone here who gave input to help us plan our trip. I'm still shaking my head in amusement though at one person who said that 11 days was far too long, because you only need 3 or 4 days to do NYC. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I have a question. It seemed like almost every city block has temporary steel scaffolding covering the sidewalks on one or often several sides of the buildings. What's the deal with that? I mean it was everywhere. All I could think of is that maybe there was a Covid-era stimulus program to renovate the exteriors of older buildings that is still being implemented, or something like that. Just wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

I'll say one other thing which I know won't be popular, but maybe it will help some first-time visitors. Every guide to NYC that I read said to avoid Times Square or at most go for 15 minutes and then get away. Now for me, that would work just fine, but for my wife, she absolutely loved Times Square and wanted to go back many times to feel the energy and excitement and see all the video screens and everything. Of course, we were in the area anyway to see Broadway shows and jazz shows in the evenings, so it worked out great for us. Just another example I guess of different strokes for different folks.

I am convinced that the 'rudeness' of New Yorkers is actually the transplants who pretend as if they must be rude now that they've moved to NYC. I grew up in NJ and spent a few years in NYC. I never once felt animosity from New Yorkers. The only time I was given a cold shoulder or hard time was from younger transplants who had moved to the city and embraced the perceived New Yorker "attitude."

New York was definitely a harsher and more paranoid place in the 1980s (see "After Hours" etc).

Things got better. And I think 9-11 really showed the tragic, and human side, of New York. We could all see ourselves being in those office towers that Tuesday AM.

I have encountered New Yorker's trademark sarcasm. I said "thank you very much" - which is how we say thank you where I am from (when we are genuinely pleased with something) and got "You're welcome very much" back - they thought I was being sarcastic!

It's a city that sometimes takes no prisoners.

But I have also encountered the warmth and helpfulness of New Yorkers, as well.

[Valuethinker]

Somehow in NYC it doesn't feel like a big deal to yell at someone about a traffic dispute. I think its just part of the culture here. I think Seinfeld did a bit about it. In Chicago I would never.

Solution is not to drive.

Agree re not driving. Also that saves parking stress. New York is probably the only city in North America (or at least the USA) where you can completely execute that plan** -- the extent of its public transport services + the sheer density of Manhattan "everything you need to live within 5 blocks".

Although there are plenty of out of car yelling incidents in London (they happen on my street, because you have 2 way traffic but on-street parking on both sides, so *somebody* will have to back up). I would counsel against participating in them, because ... things can cook off. I think you are a medical specialist? You would know then how a blow to the head, or a casual stab wound - can lead to death. With the stabbings in London (almost inevitably of boys it seems), the kids see the videos, I think they don't really understand how easy it is to take another life, or what you will feel when you do.***

** Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver all have big enough & liveable enough downtown areas, plus public transport, to make similar ways of life possible. I am not sure regarding any other North American cities.

*** the veterans I knew. Of course time heals that sort of memory. And in war it's quite impersonal - blast away at someone 500 yards away, or indirect artillery fire etc. Nonetheless I think some of them had experience of up-close-and-personal. They found it impossible to talk about. I knew a man whose job in Normandy was combat engineer - throwing explosive charges into bunkers with Germans in them.

From the 1991 movie Flirting, about a relationship between a boy in an Australian boys boarding school and the daughter of a Ugandan politician (played by Thandie Newton), at the girls school. Danny's parents (who own a hotel -i e a drinking men's bar) meet her parents at a school event:


Bruce: The furthest I've been

is New Guinea.

Sheila: My husband fought there

during the war.

He never talks about it.

Ugandan politician: I'm not surprised.

It must be hard for

anyone else to understand...

how tough it was.

Bruce (looking puzzled):
That's true.

[folkher0]

Somehow in NYC it doesn't feel like a big deal to yell at someone about a traffic dispute. I think its just part of the culture here. I think Seinfeld did a bit about it. In Chicago I would never.

Solution is not to drive.

Agree re not driving. Also that saves parking stress. New York is probably the only city in North America (or at least the USA) where you can completely execute that plan** -- the extent of its public transport services + the sheer density of Manhattan "everything you need to live within 5 blocks".

Although there are plenty of out of car yelling incidents in London (they happen on my street, because you have 2 way traffic but on-street parking on both sides, so *somebody* will have to back up). I would counsel against participating in them, because ... things can cook off. I think you are a medical specialist? You would know then how a blow to the head, or a casual stab wound - can lead to death. With the stabbings in London (almost inevitably of boys it seems), the kids see the videos, I think they don't really understand how easy it is to take another life, or what you will feel when you do.***

** Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver all have big enough & liveable enough downtown areas, plus public transport, to make similar ways of life possible. I am not sure regarding any other North American cities.

*** the veterans I knew. Of course time heals that sort of memory. And in war it's quite impersonal - blast away at someone 500 yards away, or indirect artillery fire etc. Nonetheless I think some of them had experience of up-close-and-personal. They found it impossible to talk about. I knew a man whose job in Normandy was combat engineer - throwing explosive charges into bunkers with Germans in them.

From the 1991 movie Flirting, about a relationship between a boy in an Australian boys boarding school and the daughter of a Ugandan politician (played by Thandie Newton), at the girls school. Danny's parents (who own a hotel -i e a drinking men's bar) meet her parents at a school event:


Bruce: The furthest I've been

is New Guinea.

Sheila: My husband fought there

during the war.

He never talks about it.

Ugandan politician: I'm not surprised.

It must be hard for

anyone else to understand...

how tough it was.

Bruce (looking puzzled):
That's true.

You're correct, of course. I'm not advocating conflict. I'm a simple flawed human who occasionally has to drive in NYC. It can be a frustrating, high stress endeavor and is not recommended. It doesn't feel particularly safe to drive here compared to other parts of the country and brings out the worst in us.

There was a plan for congestion pricing which was scuttled for political reasons at the last minute. It was imperfect and somewhat gerrymandered, but I think it might have helped decrease the traffic a bit, at least temporarily.

Public transportation is great, especially for tourists or people who travel the typical routes at the typical times. It is all most people will ever need.

If anyone else is still reading I would take this opportunity to also advise to take extra care when walking in the city. E-bikes, scooters, etc have proliferated and are probably far more of a danger to most pedestrians than cars. They don't obey traffic signals or designated bike lanes. Before you step into any street in Manhattan be sure to look both ways. They are faster than most cars on the streets and totally silent. I walk far more than I drive and have had way more near miss events with the e bikes than with bigger vehicles. I know people who have been injured and the ERs see a ton of collisions.

[JackoC]

Very interesting points, Valuethinker. My recollection of the Tube is that the average depth is much deeper than in NYC, even though the maximum depths may be similar.

I did not know about the shallow bedrock in NYC, and its connection to easy foundation building for skyscrapers. A couple things stood out to me in Central Park. One of them was the abundance of rock outcroppings, which greatly contributes to the scenery, and which I had no idea would be present. The rock outcroppings are indicative of shallow bedrock of course, unless I'm greatly mistaken. The other thing that stood out was that the elevation goes up and down much more than I expected. For some reason, I always pictured Central Park as fairly flat. The overall reality of the park was much, much better than my expectation with the variety of vegetation, the hills, the rock outcroppings, the water features, the stonework on the bridges, and the maze of paved and unpaved trails.

Midtown and downtown are peaks of ancient mountains worn down over the eons to sea level, in between and north are ancient valleys filled with softer sediment to the same level, which is one reason very tall buildings have mainly been built midtown/downtown although transport hub/network effects are another. More recently, geologically, the furthest south edge of the Wisconsin glaciation ran across NY and explains various terrain features like the rock outcroppings only so far south and the high areas of Brooklyn are the terminal moraine, the rubble pushed out in front of the glacier. Manhattan's been more extensively leveled since pre-European times, and OTOH some of the elevation changes in Central Park are manmade, created when the park was constructed from the 1850's.

On who is friendly where, it's perhaps the most subjective (aka distorted by deeply flawed human perception) question you can discuss in polite company. And even then tends towards issues you can't. The ideal is that everyone worldwide would strive to treat all strangers equally regardless of physical appearance and other context (dress, mannerisms, speech pattern, accent etc) but that's not fully realized anywhere IME.

I'm a multi-generation NY'er so naturally tend to think the way people act here is normal and tend toward suspicion of phoniness in places where people are typically more strictly polite or effusively friendly to strangers. I also think treating strangers differently based on snap judgements is *relatively* less common here, than some other places I've lived anyway, but it's everywhere to some degree. 'How polite is X place' tends to assume a tourist or perhaps traveling businessperson which might narrow it down some, but still leaves other more sensitive stuff about the tourist or businessperson as a variable.

[Elsebet]

Whenever I see a tour bus, I try to give them the finger. Not out of anger, but so some midwesterner will go home and have a story to tell. I think that’s funny, in a New York way.

Love it!

[alfaspider]

Just got back from 11 days in NYC. First time there for us Californians. Wow, it was awesome. We only got to about 1/3 of the things on our wish list of things to see and do. We can't wait to go back someday hopefully not too far in the future. We went all over from 125th Street south and into Brooklyn and never once felt unsafe on the streets, subways, city buses, etc. The reputation of NYC rudeness is far exaggerated -- we met many more friendly and helpful people than rude ones. I want to say thanks to everyone here who gave input to help us plan our trip. I'm still shaking my head in amusement though at one person who said that 11 days was far too long, because you only need 3 or 4 days to do NYC. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I have a question. It seemed like almost every city block has temporary steel scaffolding covering the sidewalks on one or often several sides of the buildings. What's the deal with that? I mean it was everywhere. All I could think of is that maybe there was a Covid-era stimulus program to renovate the exteriors of older buildings that is still being implemented, or something like that. Just wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

I'll say one other thing which I know won't be popular, but maybe it will help some first-time visitors. Every guide to NYC that I read said to avoid Times Square or at most go for 15 minutes and then get away. Now for me, that would work just fine, but for my wife, she absolutely loved Times Square and wanted to go back many times to feel the energy and excitement and see all the video screens and everything. Of course, we were in the area anyway to see Broadway shows and jazz shows in the evenings, so it worked out great for us. Just another example I guess of different strokes for different folks.

I am convinced that the 'rudeness' of New Yorkers is actually the transplants who pretend as if they must be rude now that they've moved to NYC. I grew up in NJ and spent a few years in NYC. I never once felt animosity from New Yorkers. The only time I was given a cold shoulder or hard time was from younger transplants who had moved to the city and embraced the perceived New Yorker "attitude."

Having lived in New York as well as smaller cities, I think a lot of what is perceived as "rudeness" is just a natural defense mechanism to the number of human encounters they have. On an average day in a small to mid-size city, you might encounter 40-50 people outside your immediate family (maybe more if you go shopping or to a restaurant, but rarely more than a few hundred). On an average day living and working in midtown you might encounter 5,000 people or more. The law of averages is that some of those people will be grifters, dangerously mentally ill, or otherwise people you don't want to interact with. As a result, someone walking down the street is going to be immediately on-guard. They may appear "rude" to someone who is asking directions or bumping into them because they are on the defensive. The same person who might blow you off when you ask for directions could be really nice if you meet up for a drink.

[Parkinglotracer]

If anyone thinks ny’ers are rude go to Philly - they throw snow balls at Santa.

Ny’ers make stuff happen.

[Valuethinker]

If anyone else is still reading I would take this opportunity to also advise to take extra care when walking in the city. E-bikes, scooters, etc have proliferated and are probably far more of a danger to most pedestrians than cars. They don't obey traffic signals or designated bike lanes. Before you step into any street in Manhattan be sure to look both ways. They are faster than most cars on the streets and totally silent. I walk far more than I drive and have had way more near miss events with the e bikes than with bigger vehicles. I know people who have been injured and the ERs see a ton of collisions.

1. I was hospitalised by a rogue cyclist once (on the sidewalk in London)-- knocked unconscious. So I hear your point - and with "e" everything it is immeasurably worse -- fast and silent.

2. Statistically I am pretty sure the deadliest thing in NYC for pedestrians is still cars. Perhaps there are more of the other types of accidents, but the modern car (SUV) with its elevated driving position and greater weight etc is deadly to pedestrians. Again, there's personal experience in this (as well as statistics).

[Valuethinker]

I'm a multi-generation NY'er so naturally tend to think the way people act here is normal and tend toward suspicion of phoniness in places where people are typically more strictly polite or effusively friendly to strangers. I also think treating strangers differently based on snap judgements is *relatively* less common here, than some other places I've lived anyway, but it's everywhere to some degree. 'How polite is X place' tends to assume a tourist or perhaps traveling businessperson which might narrow it down some, but still leaves other more sensitive stuff about the tourist or businessperson as a variable.

Hilariously of course that's what non-Americans sometimes say about Americans who are friendly - that it's false.

What Americans are to New Yorkers, all Americans (including even New Yorkers) are to us more uptight types .

True story from the mass grounding of aircraft by the FAA on 9-11.

Gander Newfoundland is a town of 10k people at the extreme Northeast of North America. NFLD has its own time zone (half an hour ahead of East Coast time) it's so far out there. It only joined Canadian Confederation in 1949 (formerly a directly governed British colony). The big industry was fish (famously the Atlantic Cod, now more or less extinct from overfishing) and now offshore oil and gas (many Newfoundlanders work in the oil fields in Alberta, but maintain homes and ties). Newfoundland has never been a rich place-- poverty and unemployment are high, as is migration outwards to the rest of Canada or elsewhere. If you ever saw the tv detective series Republic of Doyle - that's set in NFLD.

There was a question whether all the planes flying in, and into, North America, could be accommodated on the ground. The main Canadian airports quickly reached capacity - no more room to even taxi planes.

Gander's claim to fame had been as a training base for lowlevel flying by NATO pilots during the Cold War -- there's a lot of empty wilderness up there (although it disturbed the cariboo). Thus a military sized airfield.

And so the planes coming into the East Coast were diverted to Gander.

The story, of how 10,000 Newfoundlanders made 7,000 refugees, in effect, at home, has been chronicled in a Broadway Musical

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_from_Away

These would be New Yorkers of all the diverse colours, genders and sexual orientations of the human race. And a small town full of people of Irish-English-Scottish descent. Some of the refugees so loved their experience that they returned later.

When the 9-11 Museum was built, a melted steel girder was gifted to the town of Gander NFLD, in thanks.

The lesson? Put humans together in the right circumstances, no matter how strange, and you can see the best of them.

The attacks result in the closure of US airspace, diverting 38 international aircraft to Gander International Airport. The passengers on these aircraft doubled the population of the small Newfoundland town, which is unequipped for the influx of stranded travelers ("38 Planes"). The Gander townspeople spring to action and prepare to house, feed, clothe, and comfort the nearly 7,000 passengers, along with 19 animals in cargo ("Blankets and Bedding"). Meanwhile, the pilots, flight attendants, and passengers are initially forbidden from leaving the planes, forcing them to contend with confusing and conflicting information about what has happened and why they were suddenly grounded ("28 Hours / Wherever We Are").

Once allowed off the planes and transferred to nearby emergency shelters ("Darkness and Trees"), the passengers and crew watch replays of the attacks on the news and learn the true reason why they were grounded ("Lead Us Out of the Night"). The frightened and lonely passengers desperately try to contact their families and pray for their loved ones while the townsfolk work through the night to help them in any and every way they can ("Phoning Home / Costume Party"). The travelers are initially taken aback by their hosts' uncommon hospitality, but they slowly let their guards down and begin to bond with the quirky townsfolk and each other. The "islanders" in Gander and the surrounding towns open up their homes to the "plane people", regardless of their guests' race, nationality, or sexual orientation. Two women, Beulah (from Gander) and Hannah (from New York), bond over the fact that both of their sons are firefighters, but Hannah's son remains missing after the attacks ("I Am Here"). Hannah asks Beulah to take her to a Catholic church, and a number of characters make their way to other houses of worship around town ("Prayer").

To alleviate rising fear and mounting tensions ("On The Edge"), the townspeople invite the passengers to be initiated as honorary Newfoundlanders at the local bar ("Heave Away / Screech In").

[JackoC]

I'm a multi-generation NY'er so naturally tend to think the way people act here is normal and tend toward suspicion of phoniness in places where people are typically more strictly polite or effusively friendly to strangers. I also think treating strangers differently based on snap judgements is *relatively* less common here, than some other places I've lived anyway, but it's everywhere to some degree. 'How polite is X place' tends to assume a tourist or perhaps traveling businessperson which might narrow it down some, but still leaves other more sensitive stuff about the tourist or businessperson as a variable.

Hilariously of course that's what non-Americans sometimes say about Americans who are friendly - that it's false.

What Americans are to New Yorkers, all Americans (including even New Yorkers) are to us more uptight types .

It's a lot about what people believe, not 'objective truth' IMO, and besides obviously varying by person within a group, also varies by groups within diverse countries. I'm sure I'm not viewed as effusively friendly in London where I've spent pretty much time, or in Ireland where I'm often assumed to be a local till I speak. Personal variation, but also a variation on Irish personality, 19th century hard times version frozen in time from when my great-great grandparents (mainly) came to Brooklyn (mainly). Each generation has a stratification between 'gift of gab' Irish and my type, among my numerous great aunts/uncles, mom v dad, me v my brother, my cousins. And that's just one cultural idiosyncrasy among almost innumerable ones in NY from everywhere on earth (of course London does too). In my local area right near NY 'effusively friendly' people were likely born some places in Latin America (there are people from everywhere in Latin America, but some places seem less that way). The least effusive people were often born in Korea. English visitors wouldn't specially stand out as reticent v uniformly effusive locals, though I know they usually think so, and their belief might have more validity with a 'mainstream' assumption.

[brooklynboy]

i have lived in NYC for 45 years and have no intention of leaving. living here changed my life for the better in many ways.

this place is like a candy store, with amusing and fascinating activities galore.

i usually tell people who ask that a week's visit is about right to capture most of the city.

i usually offer to help visitors who appear lost: most often, men say that no help is needed but women are just the opposite.

and, yes, bicycles and ebikes often are ridden unsafely, and are dangerous to pedestrians and nerve-wracking to drivers.

[stuper1]

i have lived in NYC for 45 years and have no intention of leaving. living here changed my life for the better in many ways.

this place is like a candy store, with amusing and fascinating activities galore.

i usually tell people who ask that a week's visit is about right to capture most of the city.

i usually offer to help visitors who appear lost: most often, men say that no help is needed but women are just the opposite.

and, yes, bicycles and ebikes often are ridden unsafely, and are dangerous to pedestrians and nerve-wracking to drivers.

OP here. I like brooklynboy's candy store analogy. The one that popped into my head somewhere along the way is that NYC is like Disneyland for adults, but with shorter lines and much more variety of experiences to be had (mostly "real" experiences not just fantasy). I know some people who voluntarily choose to go to Disneyland almost every vacation -- these are adults whose children are long grown up. To me, that sounds like hell. Why would they do that when they could go to NYC and find almost anything under the sun to do? Again, different strokes for different folks I guess.