Numismatic advice

[hvaclorax]

Without going into detail, I’m looking for a safe, honest and reputable company to help me dispose of a large coin collection. I’m not the collector nor do I have any numismatic knowledge. The value of the silver and gold coins just for the scrap metal is in the six figure range. So my question and desire is to get advice from the Bogleheads as to how to approach the issue. And of course if you have a better idea from experience that would be helpful as well. Thanks

[Wannaretireearly]

Ask Sotheby’s for advice?

[nyclon]

You can try Heritage Auctions.

PCGS and NGC are the two main grading companies - if you want to submit anything for grading yourself. If you don’t want to submit yourself, the auction company can do it for you for a fee. Or, if all of it is scrap, then perhaps they can connect you with someone willing to buy it as such and you can avoid grading anything.

If you believe it’s all scrap, just weigh everything yourself, and come up with an asking price. Then go to a few local folks that buy scrap and take the best bid.

[mtwistercapitalist]

Without going into detail, I’m looking for a safe, honest and reputable company to help me dispose of a large coin collection. I’m not the collector nor do I have any numismatic knowledge. The value of the silver and gold coins just for the scrap metal is in the six figure range. So my question and desire is to get advice from the Bogleheads as to how to approach the issue. And of course if you have a better idea from experience that would be helpful as well. Thanks

You need to read this given that you aren't a collector or don't have any numismatic knowledge. This is from a local dealer whom I trust:

https://web.archive.org/web/20230328235 ... or-a-ride/

I would also suggest visiting a local coin club and just being vague when talking to experienced numismatists and say "I received a coin collection, how would you advise for me to deal with it properly?" See what they have to say

[hvaclorax]

OP here again,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another related question, I understand the reputable buyer reports a purchase price of $10,000 or more. Correct?
The seller reports the capital gains (sale price minus basis) to the IRS. CGT is due on any amount of sale. CGT is 28%, different than CGT for securities. Yes?
The reputable dealer should know about this paperwork. If not then they aren’t reputable.
I’m asking more than my original question if it’s okay.
Any other potential pitfalls?

[RetiredAL]

OP here again,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another related question, I understand the reputable buyer reports a purchase price of $10,000 or more. Correct?
The seller reports the capital gains (sale price minus basis) to the IRS. CGT is due on any amount of sale. CGT is 28%, different than CGT for securities. Yes?
The reputable dealer should know about this paperwork. If not then they aren’t reputable.
I’m asking more than my original question if it’s okay.
Any other potential pitfalls?

Were these coins an inheritance? That effects the basis cost.

[CAsage]

If gold coins are actual stamped by weight Pandas, Eagles, Maple Leaves etc ... gold/coin dealers buy these all the time directly for face value. You can just walk in with some or a few at a time, and they will pay you. I had one 1/2 ounce Panda to sell (gift some years back, it was cute) and after the nice guard let me into the double-door security store, they examined it and handed me cash. No paperwork, but this was under 1K. The gold and silver may be easier to unload than any other "collectable" coins that might have value beyond the metal - which is really tough to unload in bulk. Midwest Refineries also buys scrap for melt, at decent prices.

[hvaclorax]

OP here again,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another related question, I understand the reputable buyer reports a purchase price of $10,000 or more. Correct?
The seller reports the capital gains (sale price minus basis) to the IRS. CGT is due on any amount of sale. CGT is 28%, different than CGT for securities. Yes?
The reputable dealer should know about this paperwork. If not then they aren’t reputable.
I’m asking more than my original question if it’s okay.
Any other potential pitfalls?

Were these coins an inheritance? That effects the basis cost.

No, not inherited, the owner is very old and may need to sell them for personal medical care. Unknown basis. So cap gains aren’t avoidable.

[RetiredAL]

OP here again,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another related question, I understand the reputable buyer reports a purchase price of $10,000 or more. Correct?
The seller reports the capital gains (sale price minus basis) to the IRS. CGT is due on any amount of sale. CGT is 28%, different than CGT for securities. Yes?
The reputable dealer should know about this paperwork. If not then they aren’t reputable.
I’m asking more than my original question if it’s okay.
Any other potential pitfalls?

Were these coins an inheritance? That effects the basis cost.

No, not inherited, the owner is very old and may need to sell them for personal medical care. Unknown basis. So cap gains aren’t avoidable.

Personal medical care care could be a deductible medicare expense.

[hvaclorax]

OP here again,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another related question, I understand the reputable buyer reports a purchase price of $10,000 or more. Correct?
The seller reports the capital gains (sale price minus basis) to the IRS. CGT is due on any amount of sale. CGT is 28%, different than CGT for securities. Yes?
The reputable dealer should know about this paperwork. If not then they aren’t reputable.
I’m asking more than my original question if it’s okay.
Any other potential pitfalls?

Were these coins an inheritance? That effects the basis cost.

No, not inherited, the owner is very old and may need to sell them for personal medical care. Unknown basis. So cap gains aren’t avoidable.

Personal medical care care could be a deductible medicare expense.

That is certainly true for all not just those needing numismatic advice. I don’t need a reminder.

[bigtex]

I have done this exercise for individuals wanting to unload a coin collection without knowing how to value it etc. I take the collection to multiple dealers and get their best offers. I present the best offer price to the seller and tell them they can take that best offer or allow me to sell the coins on eBay and other marketplaces and we split 50/50 all proceeds above that offer price from the dealer. This has worked well in the past both for me and the seller. eBay sales have always done better than the price the dealer is offering. I get compensated for my eBay time and the seller gets the absolute best price. DM me if it is something you want to consider.

[hvaclorax]

prudent has written extensively on this blog. She has lots of experience and good advice. I suggest anyone interested pull up her coin related answers.

[Nowizard]

Agreed that taking the collection to multiple dealers is wise. Doing so when selling our collection recently resulted in three particular items of mint sets involving gold and silver being priced as bullion by one, with numismatic value by another. I knew from some research they had numismatic value of unknown amount since retail prices are often quoted, not dealer. In this partial example, the difference in these three items was approximately $3,000 for one offer, $9,600 for the other. The latter evaluated the collection and offered what was a fair price in my opinion. You might be surprised in both directions about individual pieces if you know original purchase prices. Some items I had paid $800 for sold for $100, others that I had paid $50 for sold for $250. That is apparently particularly likely for pieces held for longer periods of time. Anecdotal experience, of course.

[hvaclorax]

prudent wrote to paraphrase, “coin dealers will often give you an offer that is only good at that particular visit with them. They put a lot of time and effort into coming up with an offer and they don’t like people shopping around without paying them for their effort. So it sounds to me like the best is also likely to be the one that you aren’t given a lot of choice or opportunity to shop around.”

[SplitTheBill?]

Hi OP. FWIW and having just gone through the process of selling a reasonable size collection recently, I'd offer this advice. Rather than hauling a large collection around I'd take the time to catalog it. That catalog could be as simple as coin value, quantities and dates. If the collection contains vintage silver dollars you might also want to invest the time to note the mint marks. I'd then share that list with multiple buyers and ask how they would go about appraising. Unless you have some very sought after coins, I wouldn't bother have them graded. Of course, you'd have to do some research to know if any coins stand out. Once I found a buyer that I had confidence in, I then proceed to sell the coins in patches. This allowed me to gauge the experience as well as avoid lugging a massive collection around. Good luck.

[hvaclorax]

Thank you all for your kind advice. prudent, one of the moderators, set me straight. I hate to keep quoting her, but she really seemed to provide the spot on information that I needed. Which she told me is the coins I have are considered bullion coins, which means they aren’t numismatic. They are gold coins in 1 ounce denominations and made by many countries across the world. They are sold to people who like to have physical gold. And for various reasons that might make sense.
So having them graded and having them evaluated by coin collector isn’t really something that we need. Thanks again for all your help.

[bongo]

If gold coins are actual stamped by weight Pandas, Eagles, Maple Leaves etc ... gold/coin dealers buy these all the time directly for face value. You can just walk in with some or a few at a time, and they will pay you.

hopefully not just face value, that would be highway robbery!

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

[suemarkp]

OP here again,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another related question, I understand the reputable buyer reports a purchase price of $10,000 or more. Correct?
The seller reports the capital gains (sale price minus basis) to the IRS. CGT is due on any amount of sale. CGT is 28%, different than CGT for securities. Yes?
The reputable dealer should know about this paperwork. If not then they aren’t reputable.
I’m asking more than my original question if it’s okay.
Any other potential pitfalls?

The tax is capped at 28%, so if the taxpayer is in the 22% bracket, the coin gains will also be taxed at 22% unless the gains exhaust that bracket and push the income tax into the next (24%) bracket. Turbo Tax has a section for collectables that handles this. So don't just assume you pay 28% on the gains. That would only apply if the taxpayer is already up into the 31% or higher bracket before the gold gains are considered.

If you're worried about filing an IRS Form 8033 for cash transactions of $10K or more, I don't believe you need to worry about that. That is a bank or business only requirement, and the requirements are tricky as to what is considered cash and multiple transactions from the same party.

Brokers file a 1099B when selling 25 or more 1oz gold Maples Leaves, Krugerrands, or Mexican Onzas. No reporting for Gold Eagles, Buffalos, Austrian Philharmonics, or any fractional coin. You are not a broker, so you don't have to generate one when selling. If you sold to a dealer, and they sell the above listed quantities to the same buyer, then they file a 1099B. If a buyer doesn't want a 1099B paper trail, then they need to buy less than 25 one ounce coins at a time, or buy the ones that don't have reporting requirements.

[CAsage]

If gold coins are actual stamped by weight Pandas, Eagles, Maple Leaves etc ... gold/coin dealers buy these all the time directly for face value. You can just walk in with some or a few at a time, and they will pay you.

hopefully not just face value, that would be highway robbery!

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

Yeah, I meant "stated gold value", not whatever silly currency they are in, of course. And I will note again, one (and lots of friends) can likely stroll into a coin dealer and walk out with cash, paperwork free. Worth looking into. for at least some. There is a $10K max on depositing cash at a bank without some reporting....

[illumination]

deleted

[illumination]

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

I remember reading someone tried something similar and it went to court, with the IRS prevailing. I personally think it was a good loophole since it's legal US currency, but I believe a judge said otherwise.

I've always thought it was so silly to have a dollar denomination that was so under the market value, it never made sense to me.

[hvaclorax]

OP here again,
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Another related question, I understand the reputable buyer reports a purchase price of $10,000 or more. Correct?
The seller reports the capital gains (sale price minus basis) to the IRS. CGT is due on any amount of sale. CGT is 28%, different than CGT for securities. Yes?
The reputable dealer should know about this paperwork. If not then they aren’t reputable.
I’m asking more than my original question if it’s okay.
Any other potential pitfalls?

The tax is capped at 28%, so if the taxpayer is in the 22% bracket, the coin gains will also be taxed at 22% unless the gains exhaust that bracket and push the income tax into the next (24%) bracket. Turbo Tax has a section for collectables that handles this. So don't just assume you pay 28% on the gains. That would only apply if the taxpayer is already up into the 31% or higher bracket before the gold gains are considered.

If you're worried about filing an IRS Form 8033 for cash transactions of $10K or more, I don't believe you need to worry about that. That is a bank or business only requirement, and the requirements are tricky as to what is considered cash and multiple transactions from the same party.

Brokers file a 1099B when selling 25 or more 1oz gold Maples Leaves, Krugerrands, or Mexican Onzas. No reporting for Gold Eagles, Buffalos, Austrian Philharmonics, or any fractional coin. You are not a broker, so you don't have to generate one when selling. If you sold to a dealer, and they sell the above listed quantities to the same buyer, then they file a 1099B. If a buyer doesn't want a 1099B paper trail, then they need to buy less than 25 one ounce coins at a time, or buy the ones that don't have reporting requirements.

Okay, I think I can get the tax owed with respect to capital gains once I decide how much am I required to report. My question relates to my obligation. If I sell $9999 in value of my coins, I am required to report what if anything to the IRS? And sorry to belabor but I am interested in handling this transaction legally as required not just because I can get away with it because it wasn’t reported by the coin dealer who is the buyer. Tell me as if I were 12 years old.

[Silverado]

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

I remember reading someone tried something similar and it went to court, with the IRS prevailing. I personally think it was a good loophole since it's legal US currency, but I believe a judge said otherwise.

I've always thought it was so silly to have a dollar denomination that was so under the market value, it never made sense to me.

Tough to state in court with a straight face that one’s intent wasn’t nefarious. We used to call it the “red face test” when working on EPA emissions complaint diesel engines. “Can you pass the red face test in court with that?”

[suemarkp]

Okay, I think I can get the tax owed with respect to capital gains once I decide how much am I required to report. My question relates to my obligation. If I sell $9999 in value of my coins, I am required to report what if anything to the IRS? And sorry to belabor but I am interested in handling this transaction legally as required not just because I can get away with it because it wasn’t reported by the coin dealer who is the buyer. Tell me as if I were 12 years old.

You report on schedule D. Here is a sample:

Code: Select all

Part II Long Term Capital Gains
[ ] (D)
[ ] (E)
[X] (F) Long-term transactions not reported to you on form 1099-B

(a) Description       (b) Date       (c) Date        (d) Proceeds        (e) Cost or      Adjustments to gain or loss    (h) Gain or
of Property             Acquired      Sold              (sales price)        other basis  (f) Codes  (g) Amount of Adj    (loss)
=================================================================================================================================
55 oz silver            Various        08/19/20      $1,345.               $1,198.            C             0.            $147

So you need to know when it was bought. If the coins were bought over time it is best to say "various".
You need to know the sell date. That can be various too if you don't sell all at once.
You need the amount of money received($1345 in my example) and you need to know the cost basis ($1198 in my example). Basis can be difficult if you don't have purchase receipts and don't know what year it was bought.
The adjustment code C is for collectible
There is no adjust amount, as code C just affects the tax table percentages used.
Gain or loss is (d) - (e) -(g) which the tax software should calculate.

In the example above, I actually had 3 entries: 55oz of silver, $40 face of 40% silver, and $4 face of 90% silver. I did this because they are priced differently per ounce so it was easier to see that the prices I listed were logical. There are no hard and fast rules for how detailed to list. You could lump it all together in one line, you could break it down by gold coin type or size, or list it by each transaction. In the end, what matters is that you capture the total gain and pay the tax. The IRS has no way to verify any of this, so unless you put numbers that just don't make sense, it would be difficult to challenge you.

The hardest part is estimating the taxes because your other income affects that. You could do a mock tax return or use a tax calculator and just consider the gold capital gain a short term capital gain. That would work unless you are already in the 31% tax bracket. Do the return or tax calculator with the gold sale and without to see what the ta difference is. That would be what you need to pay now or make sure gets covered by withholding some time during the year.

If you are in the 31% or higher bracket, then the tax owed is just 28% of the capital gains.

[illumination]

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

I remember reading someone tried something similar and it went to court, with the IRS prevailing. I personally think it was a good loophole since it's legal US currency, but I believe a judge said otherwise.

I've always thought it was so silly to have a dollar denomination that was so under the market value, it never made sense to me.

Tough to state in court with a straight face that one’s intent wasn’t nefarious. We used to call it the “red face test” when working on EPA emissions complaint diesel engines. “Can you pass the red face test in court with that?”

Is legal tax avoidance "nefarious"? I can point to a few (hundred?) techniques here that comply with the law but are clearly done as a tax dodge.

I actually think in this case, the government should have the red face. The Treasury produced legal tender that states the value of the currency and someone used it in a way that complied with the dollar limits. The coins should just not be legal tender at all if they want to play a game of just pretending it's actual money. Just make a gold coin and say "1 oz".

[hvaclorax]

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

I remember reading someone tried something similar and it went to court, with the IRS prevailing. I personally think it was a good loophole since it's legal US currency, but I believe a judge said otherwise.

I've always thought it was so silly to have a dollar denomination that was so under the market value, it never made sense to me.

Tough to state in court with a straight face that one’s intent wasn’t nefarious. We used to call it the “red face test” when working on EPA emissions complaint diesel engines. “Can you pass the red face test in court with that?”

Is legal tax avoidance "nefarious"? I can point to a few (hundred?) techniques here that comply with the law but are clearly done as a tax dodge.

I actually think in this case, the government should have the red face. The Treasury produced legal tender that states the value of the currency and someone used it in a way that complied with the dollar limits. The coins should just not be legal tender at all if they want to play a game of just pretending it's actual money. Just make a gold coin and say "1 oz".

Interesting aside. +1

[Silverado]

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

I remember reading someone tried something similar and it went to court, with the IRS prevailing. I personally think it was a good loophole since it's legal US currency, but I believe a judge said otherwise.

I've always thought it was so silly to have a dollar denomination that was so under the market value, it never made sense to me.

Tough to state in court with a straight face that one’s intent wasn’t nefarious. We used to call it the “red face test” when working on EPA emissions complaint diesel engines. “Can you pass the red face test in court with that?”

Is legal tax avoidance "nefarious"? I can point to a few (hundred?) techniques here that comply with the law but are clearly done as a tax dodge.

I actually think in this case, the government should have the red face. The Treasury produced legal tender that states the value of the currency and someone used it in a way that complied with the dollar limits. The coins should just not be legal tender at all if they want to play a game of just pretending it's actual money. Just make a gold coin and say "1 oz".

Interesting aside. +1

Agree, thanks for the interesting thoughts illumination, they are are, shall I say, illuminating.

I have often wondered about a similar phenomenon where someone builds a wall in their home out of cash, maybe to divide the dining room and kitchen. Way off topic of this thread, and starts to get into areas that need to be moved to another message board.

As yet another aside, it reminds me a bit of when Brewster sends a postcard using a rare stamp in Brewster's Millions.

[hvaclorax]

My home has such a wall, doesn’t everyone?

[White Coat Investor]

Without going into detail, I’m looking for a safe, honest and reputable company to help me dispose of a large coin collection. I’m not the collector nor do I have any numismatic knowledge. The value of the silver and gold coins just for the scrap metal is in the six figure range. So my question and desire is to get advice from the Bogleheads as to how to approach the issue. And of course if you have a better idea from experience that would be helpful as well. Thanks

Good example of why investing in this sort of thing might not be a great idea. Someone else is going to have to dispose of it. Same issue with lots of private investments, real estate, maybe even something like crypto. Compared to a handful of index funds, there's just a lot more hassle here.

Sorry I can't help OP.

[hvaclorax]

Without going into detail, I’m looking for a safe, honest and reputable company to help me dispose of a large coin collection. I’m not the collector nor do I have any numismatic knowledge. The value of the silver and gold coins just for the scrap metal is in the six figure range. So my question and desire is to get advice from the Bogleheads as to how to approach the issue. And of course if you have a better idea from experience that would be helpful as well. Thanks

Good example of why investing in this sort of thing might not be a great idea. Someone else is going to have to dispose of it. Same issue with lots of private investments, real estate, maybe even something like crypto. Compared to a handful of index funds, there's just a lot more hassle here.

Sorry I can't help OP.

Yeah we can’t undo decisions made by my dad 55+ years ago. I and you wouldn’t do this today. I mentioned above his concern for Great Depression #2. Oh the opportunity costs of coin investment.

[hvaclorax]

I’m still working on the gold coins. This is what I have found:
They are bullion coins, 1oz. known purity, known provenance. These coins are not of numismatic value. Just a measure of gold. Kugerands for example.
Easy to buy and sell from reputable dealers. They have no problem with large numbers, $100k. The price is the spot price of gold minus the commission.
The tax is at capital gains rates. Might want to spread it out. Step up in basis might apply.
The comments about non-payment are disused so I won’t repeat except to say that the dealer told me he has no reporting duty to the IRS. BUT, the deposit of $10,000 cash or check will require a bank report to IRS. No tax advantages. Just to make myself clear, I have no intention of going to debtors prison.
Gold pays no dividends. Storage is an important consideration. Scams are a possibility. Value fluctuates widely, wildly in my opinion. Not Bogleheads material in my estimation.

[funxional]

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

I remember reading someone tried something similar and it went to court, with the IRS prevailing. I personally think it was a good loophole since it's legal US currency, but I believe a judge said otherwise.

I've always thought it was so silly to have a dollar denomination that was so under the market value, it never made sense to me.

Tough to state in court with a straight face that one’s intent wasn’t nefarious. We used to call it the “red face test” when working on EPA emissions complaint diesel engines. “Can you pass the red face test in court with that?”

Is legal tax avoidance "nefarious"? I can point to a few (hundred?) techniques here that comply with the law but are clearly done as a tax dodge.

I actually think in this case, the government should have the red face. The Treasury produced legal tender that states the value of the currency and someone used it in a way that complied with the dollar limits. The coins should just not be legal tender at all if they want to play a game of just pretending it's actual money. Just make a gold coin and say "1 oz".

I suspect at issue is that the coins weren't "spent" at face value. It's hard to come up with any scenarios where it's better to give $1m in value to satisfy $14k in debt than actually value them at the market rate.

More likely one or both parties was fully aware of the market value and was trying to claim face value to avoid taxes.

The fact that it's currency with a face value doesn't make it any different than other assets that can increase in value. You buy a painting, have a basis, and when you give it to someone it's valued at market not at what you paid for it. You have a coin, with a basis that you acquired (maybe face value) and market value.

Being legal tender sets a floor on the market value but doesn't set a ceiling.

[hvaclorax]

OP here,
As I mentioned I don’t want to skirt the law. I’ll be happy to pay the taxes. Some may feel differently. My advisors all are of the same opinion. It’s plain, there is room for those inclined to not pay and justify themselves.

[7eight9]

OT: American Gold Eagles are actually legal tender in the US, so seemingly you could spend a 1oz coin as $50. Then what would happen if someone tried to avoid estate/gift tax this way, eg $1m would be just $14.3k face value as a hoard of 1/4oz Gold Eagles (~$700 each now with $10 face value), which is below the annual gift limit - no forms to file or using up the lifetime exclusion!

I remember reading someone tried something similar and it went to court, with the IRS prevailing. I personally think it was a good loophole since it's legal US currency, but I believe a judge said otherwise.

I've always thought it was so silly to have a dollar denomination that was so under the market value, it never made sense to me.

Courts have consistently held that when the fair market value of legal tender exceeds its face value, such legal tender is property other than money, and thus taxpayers must value that legal tender at its fair market value. Cordner v. United States, 671 F.2d 367, 368 (9th Cir. 1982); Joslin v. United States, 666 F.2d 1306, 1307 (10th Cir. 1981).
https://casetext.com/case/us-v-kahre-2

[PeninsulaPerson]

Just to make myself clear, I have no intention of going to debtors prison.

Which we don't have in this country.

If these are your father's coins, why isn't this sale being done in his name?

As I mentioned I don’t want to skirt the law. I’ll be happy to pay the taxes. Some may feel differently. My advisors all are of the same opinion.

Are your advisors qualified tax people who may have dealt with a situation like this before? Then do as they advise you.

Are these coins the only thing your father has to sell finance his medical care? If yes, have you consulted with a Medicaid attorney? What happens when the coin sale money runs out?

It seems like this doesn't have to be about selling coins right this second. Is some significant information missing here?

[hvaclorax]

Thanks for your input. My father is deceased. You mentioned tax advice and input advice on the sale. I’m aware of and am using a tax attorney. My questions have been honed down to a few as my awareness has grown. And largely they have been answered.
I started with a question about numismatic value but I quickly learned that the coins are “bullion coins “ meaning they are a way to trade one ounce of gold to the buyer with the assurance that the coin is gold and the weight is one ounce. The government issuers convey the safety of the coin in terms of value. Less likely to be fraudulent in any way that the current cons and scams and counterfeiters can overcome. Provenance makes the dealers trust the coin value. Not a numismatic issue as I had initially thought.
I believe my question was answered to my satisfaction. I’ve been pointed in the right direction by my Boglehead colleagues.
Thanks to all who have helped me in this process. I’ll give an update if/when the sale is completed.
PS: The debtor’s prison comment was a joke.
Respectfully, HVAC

[lthenderson]

I believe my question was answered to my satisfaction. I’ve been pointed in the right direction by my Boglehead colleagues.
Thanks to all who have helped me in this process. I’ll give an update if/when the sale is completed.

I didn't see this mentioned upthread and it sounds like you haven't sold them yet so I will add, that I had to dispose of an inherited collection though not of as great of value. I found just taking a single representative coin around to various dealers much easier and safter to get evaluated and more importantly, for me to evaluate the honesty of the dealer I was looking for to buy the entire collection. After disposing of the first coin and getting a handle on which dealer I found the most trustworthy, only then did I bring up the fact that I have quite a few more coins and asked if they would be willing to look at the collection and come to a mutually agreed upon price. I still think I got a better price that way, since I had one coin sold and established a baseline of sorts, than had I brought the entire collection in at once.

Best of luck.

[PeninsulaPerson]

... the owner is very old and may need to sell them for personal medical care.

And dead, apparently,

My father is deceased.

Sort of changes things.

[hvaclorax]

I believe my question was answered to my satisfaction. I’ve been pointed in the right direction by my Boglehead colleagues.
Thanks to all who have helped me in this process. I’ll give an update if/when the sale is completed.

I didn't see this mentioned upthread and it sounds like you haven't sold them yet so I will add, that I had to dispose of an inherited collection though not of as great of value. I found just taking a single representative coin around to various dealers much easier and safter to get evaluated and more importantly, for me to evaluate the honesty of the dealer I was looking for to buy the entire collection. After disposing of the first coin and getting a handle on which dealer I found the most trustworthy, only then did I bring up the fact that I have quite a few more coins and asked if they would be willing to look at the collection and come to a mutually agreed upon price. I still think I got a better price that way, since I had one coin sold and established a baseline of sorts, than had I brought the entire collection in at once.

Best of luck.

I’m close to getting them sold. We will use the same dealer for the sale. The dealer has answered some of my questions in a phone call. Capital gains taxes might be zero for seller if the sale is spread over multiple years. I believe the seller has this information from the tax attorney. Price of the coins is the spot price of gold. Not a lot of difference between one buyer and another. Reputable dealer is important, maybe more so than small differences in price. The dealer has been in business since 1950s. I’d be willing to lose some money on the sale knowing it has been done correctly.
Debtors prison looms large. Which is to say I want it done right.
I’ll reply back when the sale has been completed. Thanks for your interest.