Am I too rigid in maintaining my fixed costs?

[TarHeel2002]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

[KlangFool]

OP,

1) What is your current annual expense?

2) Do you plan to pay for your kids' college education?

3) Why would you want to spend more on the house versus spending more on vacation? The nest will be empty when the kids move out.

4) Assuming taxes at 100K, your current annual expense is estimated to be 325K - 100K - 90K = 135K. You might not be spending a lot on the house but you are spending a lot on non-housing expense. What are you willing to give up for a more expensive house?

KlangFool

[delamer]

I think you mean more risk averse, not much less risk averse.

As to whether it’s rational, a lot depends on your job security and whether you are a one-income or two-income family. And also how much of a bump-up in house cost you are considering.

It’s psychological difficult to take on a higher-interest mortgage, especially when you are in sight of paying off your mortgage.

And having three children who you are responsible for is a good reason to lean conservative, financially-speaking.

[MrBobcat]

We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

Nope, IMO you're simply realizing that the marginal gain/lifestyle increase from a more expensive home isn't worth the cost to you at least as of now.

[WonderWander]

Your housing costs are only ~2% of income so quite low. On the other hand, it looks like you are spending ~$135k after housing, savings and taxes (rough estimate using online Calc). $11k+/month seems high for spend after housing so looks like you either have some non-housing debts, expensive hobbies, or toys.

Will you trim your expenses to pay for the nicer house or cut on savings? Personally, I’d first try to get a handle on where all the money is going and trimming some fat before cutting into the savings rate.

[avalpert1]

No, if you are fine in your current house there isn't a good reason to spend more (possibly a lot more) on housing just cause.

[TarHeel2002]

30-35k on travel the last few years has been one place we’ve been splurging. Memory making with the kids.

It’s shocking to me how much a new mortgage payment can be with the combination of a much higher interest rate as well as substantially higher home prices in the current market.

[snowday2022]

If you are planning to pay for college, and especially private college, then you should stay the course.

[KlangFool]

30-35k on travel the last few years has been one place we’ve been splurging. Memory making with the kids.

It’s shocking to me how much a new mortgage payment can be with the combination of a much higher interest rate as well as substantially higher home prices in the current market.

TarHeel2002,

A) It is not shocking enough for you to stop thinking of spending more on the house.

B) Even after taking out the 30K to 35K, you still have substantial non-housing expense. Where do you spend the money? Are you willing to cut those expenses?

KlangFool

[BorqaZ]

In my opinion, a 650k house is not living too frugally if you are in a MCOL area. Why do you feel that way? Is a 650k house that bad in your area? Give us some description of the house.

[TarHeel2002]

In my opinion, a 650k house is not living too frugally if you are in a MCOL area. Why do you feel that way? Is a 650k house that bad in your area? Give us some description of the house.

Double our current home value is what we’re looking at

[BorqaZ]

In my opinion, a 650k house is not living too frugally if you are in a MCOL area. Why do you feel that way? Is a 650k house that bad in your area? Give us some description of the house.

Double our current home value is what we’re looking at

Why do you want to upgrade? What are you missing in your current house that you want to have in the new house? Assuming you live in the suburbs, does your current house have 4 bedrooms, 2.5 bath, 2 car garage, flat yard, and is in good school district?

[TarHeel2002]

Definitely just a want and not a need. I think our growing portfolio / net worth just has me thinking if we can, why not? This forum helps me to check myself, thank you!

[HomeStretch]

Spending more now or later is a balancing act.

If you buy a more expensive house now, are you willing to:(1) delay your retirement, (2) spend less annually in retirement, or (3) downsize the house in retirement?

It’s always possible the house may appreciate substantially.

[KlangFool]

In my opinion, a 650k house is not living too frugally if you are in a MCOL area. Why do you feel that way? Is a 650k house that bad in your area? Give us some description of the house.

Double our current home value is what we’re looking at

In the process, increase your housing expenses several times. What are you willing to give up?

KlangFool

[BorqaZ]

You are rich but not rich enough to warrant a WANT upgrade from a 650k house.

[Sandtrap]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

to op:
IMHO: not at all. You are maturing and growing wiser with a broader more comprehensive financial and life perspective for your family, and "self".
Pause, continue your path.
Re=evaluate , ask the same question next year....
Repeat.

so: the cycle is: Plan, Act, Evaluate, Plan, Act, Evaluate. etc.

When confronted with decisions, path choices, obstacles:
Wait for conditions to change.
Go around
Go through

Congratulations on your hard earned successes and sound financial strategy and paths.

to op:
Perspective:
What is the difference between being "Financially secure" (what you have now) and having "substantial wealth"?

I hope this is helpful for you
j
dis laimer: zillions of ways to things and thinking about things, this is only one.

[fasteddie911]

We too look at pricier houses despite being in a pretty great house and payment as well. So far the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Maybe it will be one day.

[avalpert1]

Definitely just a want and not a need. I think our growing portfolio / net worth just has me thinking if we can, why not? This forum helps me to check myself, thank you!

When I was first managing a P&L an executive gave me some good advice that translates well outside of business - in good times avoid baking in new fixed recurring expenses, it will make the painful choices in bad times much easier to make.

There are better places to loosen up spending that won't tie your hands if things get tighter.

[Coastfical]

I was one of those people in my earlier years who kept on wanting the bigger house and always took on more debt and mortgage. My rational was that we “needed” the bigger place for the kids. In retrospect - I wish I had stayed in one of the slightly smaller houses along the way and enjoyed the extra cash- the mortgage and additional costs became an albatross and I felt trapped in my job because I needed to make sure I could pay the mortgage. Kids are gone after HS, and then a slightly smaller house is just fine. Didn’t get better until a divorce and sale of the last monster house made me realize that being completely debt free is a remarkable feeling that I am loath to relinquish. Too bad it took me 25 years to figure that out.

[rockstar]

If you have a low mortgage rate, why is a new home even on the radar?

[delamer]

If you have a low mortgage rate, why is a new home even in the radar?

With a low rate on a primary loan, it might be worthwhile exploring whether the current house can be modified or expanded to get some of the features that a higher-end home would bring. Keeping in mind not over-improving for the neighborhood.

Of course, that might mean a HELOC or second mortgage is needed, but still that let’s the owner keep the low first loan rate.

[lthenderson]

Am I being too conservative here?

Sometimes it isn't all about the money. Bigger houses require more maintenance which takes time to find someone to do it or more energy and time on your part if you are doing it. You have bigger and more rooms to clean which takes the same resources. You have to buy more things to fill all those rooms and then get rid of them later when you decide it is too much and need to downsize. I personally would rather spend the time, energy and money in ways I find more enjoyable, such as vacations, or in my case, retiring 20 years before most of my peers. Our eldest just left for college and our youngest will in another six years and then our comfortably sized, paid for house will seem quite large and best of all, unlike our peers, we won't need to downsize to a different neighborhood since we never upsized. It is hard to put a price on all these things but they are worth a lot more than a huge house just to keep up with the Jones in my opinion.

[simplesimon]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

How important are the features of an upgraded home compared to how else you can spend the money? If money was no object, what do you really feel happy doing? That should give you some direction on where best to spend.

I don't think having a low cost living situation is in itself a reason to stay put.

[KlangFool]

In my opinion, a 650k house is not living too frugally if you are in a MCOL area. Why do you feel that way? Is a 650k house that bad in your area? Give us some description of the house.

Double our current home value is what we’re looking at

What is the size of the current house?

What is the size of the new house?

KlangFool

[TarHeel2002]

Current house 2500 square feet.

This situation would be land + build new. Nothing extravagant…it’s the location that is intriguing.

[Admiral]

Don't give up a 2.5% mortgage. Improve/expand the house if needed, you can afford it. 2500ftsq is plenty big enough for five people IMO. I raised two kids in 1900ftsq. 3br 2.5ba.

The value of a sub 3% mortgage is massive. If you could, say, get $650k for your house and then pay for a bigger house with that and a tiny mortgage, then... maybe. A bigger house is more expensive in many, many ways.

[slipknot]

Thinking of leaving RDU area?

[TinyHouse]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

Don’t give up your great situation, don’t take on more house. Keep doing what you’re doing and be content, it’ll be worth it

[shockwavesfan]

I’m in the same boat as you OP. Have a house that works for us but every once in a while we get intrigued by bigger home with more features. But I have a 2.25% mortgage with less than 10 years left and my mortgage payments are around $1k per month. It would be incredibly hard to pull the trigger on a house in the $800k to $1m price range even though I know all the “numbers” say we could afford it.

At the end of the day, I would rather be able to spend on anything else (mainly travel) and not have to worry about keeping to a strict budget. Keeping our fixed costs low gives me the confidence to not worry about the occasional extra trip, new bike, etc.

[Wannaretireearly]

I was one of those people in my earlier years who kept on wanting the bigger house and always took on more debt and mortgage. My rational was that we “needed” the bigger place for the kids. In retrospect - I wish I had stayed in one of the slightly smaller houses along the way and enjoyed the extra cash- the mortgage and additional costs became an albatross and I felt trapped in my job because I needed to make sure I could pay the mortgage. Kids are gone after HS, and then a slightly smaller house is just fine. Didn’t get better until a divorce and sale of the last monster house made me realize that being completely debt free is a remarkable feeling that I am loath to relinquish. Too bad it took me 25 years to figure that out.

Read this carefully OP. It has everything you need to check/doublecheck before massively increasing housing obligations ‘forever’

We decided to stay put and renovate ‘bigly’. Painful and still expensive, but has worked out great in every way. Most importantly, having a reasonable property tax payment for a vhcol.

Think very carefully…you are wise to create this post.

[Olemiss540]

I was one of those people in my earlier years who kept on wanting the bigger house and always took on more debt and mortgage. My rational was that we “needed” the bigger place for the kids. In retrospect - I wish I had stayed in one of the slightly smaller houses along the way and enjoyed the extra cash- the mortgage and additional costs became an albatross and I felt trapped in my job because I needed to make sure I could pay the mortgage. Kids are gone after HS, and then a slightly smaller house is just fine. Didn’t get better until a divorce and sale of the last monster house made me realize that being completely debt free is a remarkable feeling that I am loath to relinquish. Too bad it took me 25 years to figure that out.

Read this carefully OP. It has everything you need to check/doublecheck before massively increasing housing obligations ‘forever’

We decided to stay put and renovate ‘bigly’. Painful and still expensive, but has worked out great in every way. Most importantly, having a reasonable property tax payment for a vhcol.

Think very carefully…you are wise to create this post.

+1. Keep in mind that every upgrade in fixed costs also seems to come with it's own increase in variable costs as well. Features, trinkets, acreage, and fixtures all have their own maintenance and/or tax/insurance implication. Daydreaming tends to focus solely on feelings and cost of acquisition and not on longer term horizons (atleast for me)....

[rs9876lg]

I was one of those people in my earlier years who kept on wanting the bigger house and always took on more debt and mortgage. My rational was that we “needed” the bigger place for the kids. In retrospect - I wish I had stayed in one of the slightly smaller houses along the way and enjoyed the extra cash- the mortgage and additional costs became an albatross and I felt trapped in my job because I needed to make sure I could pay the mortgage. Kids are gone after HS, and then a slightly smaller house is just fine. Didn’t get better until a divorce and sale of the last monster house made me realize that being completely debt free is a remarkable feeling that I am loath to relinquish. Too bad it took me 25 years to figure that out.

Read this carefully OP. It has everything you need to check/doublecheck before massively increasing housing obligations ‘forever’

We decided to stay put and renovate ‘bigly’. Painful and still expensive, but has worked out great in every way. Most importantly, having a reasonable property tax payment for a vhcol.

Think very carefully…you are wise to create this post.

OP shouldn’t gloss over the D-word if more expensive house want is coming from the better half

[simplesimon]

Current house 2500 square feet.

This situation would be land + build new. Nothing extravagant…it’s the location that is intriguing.

By my calculations you'll increase your annual expenditure by at least $48k, or more than half your current annual savings. Which in itself is not a bad thing...we're here to compare spending on this vs other things vs savings.

Strong locations may be worth paying for - what is better about it compared to where you are now? What's the market like for existing homes in that location? What would it cost financially and mentally if you changed your mind and wanted to exit?

[RetireWhen]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

You came to Bolgeheads and of course you are going to get a dollar evaluation with a very conservative twist. But, I think your question is not a dollars question because you can do the arithmetic. I believe your question is more of, lets say quality of life question. Or perhaps a value question in the sense of happiness for a given cost. And this is only something you can decide along with your other half.

I noticed almost no one asked you how it would make you feel with the new house. Or what would it mean to your family. These are all important questions. It is not always about the dollars. I can tell you that several times in my life we spent some significant amounts when I'm sure people on Bolgeheads would say not to. But years later, I can tell you they were the best decisions made because the happiness value we got out of it was well worth it. And guess what, we are still doing very well financially and are happy. Yes the bank account would be greater, but that would not bring me any more happiness.

Don't be afraid to live life, because it is the one thing you never get more of. Money you can.

[an_asker]

I was one of those people in my earlier years who kept on wanting the bigger house and always took on more debt and mortgage. My rational was that we “needed” the bigger place for the kids. In retrospect - I wish I had stayed in one of the slightly smaller houses along the way and enjoyed the extra cash- the mortgage and additional costs became an albatross and I felt trapped in my job because I needed to make sure I could pay the mortgage. Kids are gone after HS, and then a slightly smaller house is just fine. Didn’t get better until a divorce and sale of the last monster house made me realize that being completely debt free is a remarkable feeling that I am loath to relinquish. Too bad it took me 25 years to figure that out.

Read this carefully OP. It has everything you need to check/doublecheck before massively increasing housing obligations ‘forever’

We decided to stay put and renovate ‘bigly’. Painful and still expensive, but has worked out great in every way. Most importantly, having a reasonable property tax payment for a vhcol.

Think very carefully…you are wise to create this post.

OP shouldn’t gloss over the D-word if more expensive house want is coming from the better half

After a careful reread, I wonder!!

We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently.

If the need/want is coming from better half, I think the question needs to be rephrased to "We are thinking of purchasing a $1.3Million house instead of the $650k one we have. Can we afford it?" as opposed to how you have phrased it, OP!

PS: I am focusing on "I immediately rule it out" not "we immediately rule it out".

[rs9876lg]

Unless one is a movie or sports superstar multiple spouses mean your finances will be stretched thin. For an average person the second most important factor for successful retirement is marrying right the very first time

[TarHeel2002]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

You came to Bolgeheads and of course you are going to get a dollar evaluation with a very conservative twist. But, I think your question is not a dollars question because you can do the arithmetic. I believe your question is more of, lets say quality of life question. Or perhaps a value question in the sense of happiness for a given cost. And this is only something you can decide along with your other half.

I noticed almost no one asked you how it would make you feel with the new house. Or what would it mean to your family. These are all important questions. It is not always about the dollars. I can tell you that several times in my life we spent some significant amounts when I'm sure people on Bolgeheads would say not to. But years later, I can tell you they were the best decisions made because the happiness value we got out of it was well worth it. And guess what, we are still doing very well financially and are happy. Yes the bank account would be greater, but that would not bring me any more happiness.

Don't be afraid to live life, because it is the one thing you never get more of. Money you can.

Great analysis. Thank you!

[Admiral]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

You came to Bolgeheads and of course you are going to get a dollar evaluation with a very conservative twist. But, I think your question is not a dollars question because you can do the arithmetic. I believe your question is more of, lets say quality of life question. Or perhaps a value question in the sense of happiness for a given cost. And this is only something you can decide along with your other half.

I noticed almost no one asked you how it would make you feel with the new house. Or what would it mean to your family. These are all important questions. It is not always about the dollars. I can tell you that several times in my life we spent some significant amounts when I'm sure people on Bolgeheads would say not to. But years later, I can tell you they were the best decisions made because the happiness value we got out of it was well worth it. And guess what, we are still doing very well financially and are happy. Yes the bank account would be greater, but that would not bring me any more happiness.

Don't be afraid to live life, because it is the one thing you never get more of. Money you can.

Great analysis. Thank you!

It's important to evaluate--to the extent possible--what buying/building a much larger and more expensive home would do to your future plans. For example: 1) Would it require working longer than planned or longer than you would otherwise choose? 2)Would it mean a tradeoff in terms of doing something else you like (travel, fancy car, fine dining)? 3) Would it impact your ability or save or spend for college ("sorry, son, only public colleges not Princeton") et cetera.

Only you can determine when you have "enough" and when a larger fixed monthly/annual cost will not make a material difference in your life. If this new house comes with a new location and/or lifestyle change, that's one thing. But a bigger house in and of itself seems unlikely to make you "happier" in the conventional understandings of that word. Eventually you'll get used to a bigger house and it will just be a big house, likely one with lots of empty rooms.

[rockstar]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

You came to Bolgeheads and of course you are going to get a dollar evaluation with a very conservative twist. But, I think your question is not a dollars question because you can do the arithmetic. I believe your question is more of, lets say quality of life question. Or perhaps a value question in the sense of happiness for a given cost. And this is only something you can decide along with your other half.

I noticed almost no one asked you how it would make you feel with the new house. Or what would it mean to your family. These are all important questions. It is not always about the dollars. I can tell you that several times in my life we spent some significant amounts when I'm sure people on Bolgeheads would say not to. But years later, I can tell you they were the best decisions made because the happiness value we got out of it was well worth it. And guess what, we are still doing very well financially and are happy. Yes the bank account would be greater, but that would not bring me any more happiness.

Don't be afraid to live life, because it is the one thing you never get more of. Money you can.

Great analysis. Thank you!

It's important to evaluate--to the extent possible--what buying/building a much larger and more expensive home would do to your future plans. For example: 1) Would it require working longer than planned or longer than you would otherwise choose? 2)Would it mean a tradeoff in terms of doing something else you like (travel, fancy car, fine dining)? 3) Would it impact your ability or save or spend for college ("sorry, son, only public colleges not Princeton") et cetera.

Only you can determine when you have "enough" and when a larger fixed monthly/annual cost will not make a material difference in your life. If this new house comes with a new location and/or lifestyle change, that's one thing. But a bigger house in and of itself seems unlikely to make you "happier" in the conventional understandings of that word. Eventually you'll get used to a bigger house and it will just be a big house, likely one with lots of empty rooms.

The problem with bigger homes is that your maintenance costs go up and more stuff breaks. And if you’re in a more expensive zipcode expect to be fleeced by contractors.

I find home maintenance stressful.

[Admiral]

44 y.o. married 3 kids. 1.723 million in retirement and 209k in 529. Annual income 325k. Annual savings 90k. Debt 133k (value 650k) 2.5% fixed mortgage ($577 month). We’re in such a better financial position than we were 10 or 15 years ago but I’m feeling so much more risk adverse in taking on extra monthly obligations particularly in terms of a more expensive house + payment. We’re fine in our current home but sometimes we look at pricier houses for fun and I immediately rule it out because we have such a good housing / payment situation currently. Am I being too conservative here?

You came to Bolgeheads and of course you are going to get a dollar evaluation with a very conservative twist. But, I think your question is not a dollars question because you can do the arithmetic. I believe your question is more of, lets say quality of life question. Or perhaps a value question in the sense of happiness for a given cost. And this is only something you can decide along with your other half.

I noticed almost no one asked you how it would make you feel with the new house. Or what would it mean to your family. These are all important questions. It is not always about the dollars. I can tell you that several times in my life we spent some significant amounts when I'm sure people on Bolgeheads would say not to. But years later, I can tell you they were the best decisions made because the happiness value we got out of it was well worth it. And guess what, we are still doing very well financially and are happy. Yes the bank account would be greater, but that would not bring me any more happiness.

Don't be afraid to live life, because it is the one thing you never get more of. Money you can.

Great analysis. Thank you!

It's important to evaluate--to the extent possible--what buying/building a much larger and more expensive home would do to your future plans. For example: 1) Would it require working longer than planned or longer than you would otherwise choose? 2)Would it mean a tradeoff in terms of doing something else you like (travel, fancy car, fine dining)? 3) Would it impact your ability or save or spend for college ("sorry, son, only public colleges not Princeton") et cetera.

Only you can determine when you have "enough" and when a larger fixed monthly/annual cost will not make a material difference in your life. If this new house comes with a new location and/or lifestyle change, that's one thing. But a bigger house in and of itself seems unlikely to make you "happier" in the conventional understandings of that word. Eventually you'll get used to a bigger house and it will just be a big house, likely one with lots of empty rooms.

The problem with bigger homes is that your maintenance costs go up and more stuff breaks. And if you’re in a more expensive zipcode expect to be fleeced by contractors.

I find home maintenance stressful.

I agree. But the point is, for the OP those costs may be immaterial to what they want out of life. Or, they may be quite impactful.