Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

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Dregob
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by Dregob »

anagram wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 3:06 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:51 pm
Dregob wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:42 pm
anagram wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:20 am
Dregob wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:09 am

Sure, if you have any data to support your basic logic. I have never had an issue with the website or customer service at either company.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Can you explain the relationship between size of funds and website or customer service?
Let me try again with a nod to Yogi Berra: “Nobody ever goes there anymore — it’s too crowded.”
I am not debating who is better: Vanguard v Fidelity. My point is if Vanguard was terrible investors would leave in droves. They aren't. I'm not.
I own VTI, a Vanguard ETF, at the Schwab brokerage. VTI is a share class of VTSAX, so my VTI holding is a part of the number you quoted earlier in your list of the four largest mutual funds. Many VTSAX/VTI owners do not use Vanguard as their brokerage, so the size of the fund proves nothing about the brokerage.

The fact that I own VTI does not mean that I think Vanguard is a great brokerage. In fact, I am disappointed with Vanguard as a brokerage. I think Schwab is a better brokerage. However, I do think that Vanguard has great funds.
Exactly so. Conflating size of funds and brokerage service.
I am tired.
byline0802
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:44 pm

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by byline0802 »

Vanguard's new CEO starts tomorrow, 8 July. With the hopefully positive customer service changes he will bring, now seems like an odd time to change companies.
rkhusky
Posts: 18650
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:09 pm

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by rkhusky »

anagram wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 3:06 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:51 pm
Dregob wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:42 pm
anagram wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:20 am
Dregob wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:09 am

Sure, if you have any data to support your basic logic. I have never had an issue with the website or customer service at either company.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Can you explain the relationship between size of funds and website or customer service?
Let me try again with a nod to Yogi Berra: “Nobody ever goes there anymore — it’s too crowded.”
I am not debating who is better: Vanguard v Fidelity. My point is if Vanguard was terrible investors would leave in droves. They aren't. I'm not.
I own VTI, a Vanguard ETF, at the Schwab brokerage. VTI is a share class of VTSAX, so my VTI holding is a part of the number you quoted earlier in your list of the four largest mutual funds. Many VTSAX/VTI owners do not use Vanguard as their brokerage, so the size of the fund proves nothing about the brokerage.

The fact that I own VTI does not mean that I think Vanguard is a great brokerage. In fact, I am disappointed with Vanguard as a brokerage. I think Schwab is a better brokerage. However, I do think that Vanguard has great funds.
Exactly so. Conflating size of funds and brokerage service.
Quoted numbers were for Admiral share class, not ETF, so the ownership of VTI is meaningless.
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anagram
Posts: 2386
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:03 am

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by anagram »

rkhusky wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2024 6:13 pm
anagram wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 3:06 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:51 pm
Dregob wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:42 pm
anagram wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:20 am

I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Can you explain the relationship between size of funds and website or customer service?
Let me try again with a nod to Yogi Berra: “Nobody ever goes there anymore — it’s too crowded.”
I am not debating who is better: Vanguard v Fidelity. My point is if Vanguard was terrible investors would leave in droves. They aren't. I'm not.
I own VTI, a Vanguard ETF, at the Schwab brokerage. VTI is a share class of VTSAX, so my VTI holding is a part of the number you quoted earlier in your list of the four largest mutual funds. Many VTSAX/VTI owners do not use Vanguard as their brokerage, so the size of the fund proves nothing about the brokerage.

The fact that I own VTI does not mean that I think Vanguard is a great brokerage. In fact, I am disappointed with Vanguard as a brokerage. I think Schwab is a better brokerage. However, I do think that Vanguard has great funds.
Exactly so. Conflating size of funds and brokerage service.
Quoted numbers were for Admiral share class, not ETF, so the ownership of VTI is meaningless.
I don't know why you quoted me. I did not say that!
PersonalFinanceJam
Posts: 793
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:32 am

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by PersonalFinanceJam »

Dregob wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:10 pm Vanguard has 3 of the 4 largest mutual funds. I guess they are doing something right.

Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund Admiral Sales (ticker: VTSAX) $1.3 trillion
Vanguard 500 Index Fund Admiral Shares (VFIAX) $851.2 billion
Fidelity 500 Index Fund (FXAIX) $407.6 billion
Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund Admiral Shares (VTIAX) $354.4 billion
Where did these numbers come from? They don't seem correct to me as stated. For example per the latest from the Vanguard website the Total Stock Market fund all share classes has $1.6 trillion in assets. The Total Stock Market Admiral Share class (VTSAX) has $371.6 billion of those assets. The ETF share class has $395 billion in assets. The remainder is in the other share classes mostly institutional held in retirement plans.

If I remember a Larry interview correctly with some of the Vanguard asset managers they stated the ETF share class of many funds is growing faster. So I do think it's entirely possible that people's point that Vanguard the fund manager is doing great even while people get upset with Vanguard the brokerage.

Not that it makes a huge difference. Both Vanguard and Fidelity claim about 50 million customers each. They are each administering a huge amount of money. However, Fidelity's business model appears a bit different since it seems to have focused more on being a general purpose brokerage and financial institution. Severe problems with either would be detrimental to a huge number of people.
jvini
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:55 am

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by jvini »

The Wall Street Journal must be watching🙂. Here's the headline of an article they just published.
'Vanguard’s Die-Hard Customers Have a Message for New CEO: ‘The Service Is Abysmal’. The article talks about their last place customer service ranking and how people are leaving despite years of loyalty. Hopefully the new CEO will help.
rkhusky
Posts: 18650
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:09 pm

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by rkhusky »

jvini wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:29 pm The Wall Street Journal must be watching🙂. Here's the headline of an article they just published.
'Vanguard’s Die-Hard Customers Have a Message for New CEO: ‘The Service Is Abysmal’. The article talks about their last place customer service ranking and how people are leaving despite years of loyalty. Hopefully the new CEO will help.
That’s just clickbait. Sure there are Vanguard customers who say the service is abysmal, but there are similar complaints at other brokerages too. Vanguard is near the top in AUM and number of customers and other customer satisfaction surveys show Vanguard at or near the top. Clearly the majority of Vanguard customers think they are doing just fine.
jvini
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:55 am

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by jvini »

It's not click bait. The article was very thorough and cited sources from IBD to Morningstar. I think it is a legitimate issue the Journal was writing about. It wasn't sensationalism and it wasn't a headline they were using to get clicks. You can call it garbage but it definitely does not fit the definition of clickbait. It was one of many articles in the Finance section.
jebmke
Posts: 27396
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:44 pm
Location: Delmarva Peninsula

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by jebmke »

jvini wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:31 am It's not click bait. The article was very thorough and cited sources from IBD to Morningstar. I think it is a legitimate issue the Journal was writing about. It wasn't sensationalism and it wasn't a headline they were using to get clicks. You can call it garbage but it definitely does not fit the definition of clickbait. It was one of many articles in the Finance section.
Separate thread on this ithink
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
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LilyFleur
Posts: 3670
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:36 pm

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by LilyFleur »

rkhusky wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:08 pm
jvini wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:29 pm The Wall Street Journal must be watching🙂. Here's the headline of an article they just published.
'Vanguard’s Die-Hard Customers Have a Message for New CEO: ‘The Service Is Abysmal’. The article talks about their last place customer service ranking and how people are leaving despite years of loyalty. Hopefully the new CEO will help.
That’s just clickbait. Sure there are Vanguard customers who say the service is abysmal, but there are similar complaints at other brokerages too. Vanguard is near the top in AUM and number of customers and other customer satisfaction surveys show Vanguard at or near the top. Clearly the majority of Vanguard customers think they are doing just fine.
From the article: Vanguard ranked last out of eight major brokerages for customer satisfaction with website performance and mobile apps in a recent survey of 2,700 investors conducted by Investor’s Business Daily, which is published by The Wall Street Journal’s parent company, Dow Jones. The asset manager has acknowledged the problems, which some analysts chalk up to an underinvestment in technology.
rkhusky
Posts: 18650
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:09 pm

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by rkhusky »

LilyFleur wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:28 pm
rkhusky wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:08 pm
jvini wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:29 pm The Wall Street Journal must be watching🙂. Here's the headline of an article they just published.
'Vanguard’s Die-Hard Customers Have a Message for New CEO: ‘The Service Is Abysmal’. The article talks about their last place customer service ranking and how people are leaving despite years of loyalty. Hopefully the new CEO will help.
That’s just clickbait. Sure there are Vanguard customers who say the service is abysmal, but there are similar complaints at other brokerages too. Vanguard is near the top in AUM and number of customers and other customer satisfaction surveys show Vanguard at or near the top. Clearly the majority of Vanguard customers think they are doing just fine.
From the article: Vanguard ranked last out of eight major brokerages for customer satisfaction with website performance and mobile apps in a recent survey of 2,700 investors conducted by Investor’s Business Daily, which is published by The Wall Street Journal’s parent company, Dow Jones. The asset manager has acknowledged the problems, which some analysts chalk up to an underinvestment in technology.
And what was the gap between first and last? And what were the criteria and how were they weighted?

Vanguard is set up to be a buy and hold brokerage. Criteria involving market timing, fundamental analysis, day trading, and the like, are not relevant to Vanguard.
Dregob
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Stay the Course? I'm ready to Bail on Vanguard

Post by Dregob »

LilyFleur wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:28 pm
rkhusky wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:08 pm
jvini wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:29 pm The Wall Street Journal must be watching🙂. Here's the headline of an article they just published.
'Vanguard’s Die-Hard Customers Have a Message for New CEO: ‘The Service Is Abysmal’. The article talks about their last place customer service ranking and how people are leaving despite years of loyalty. Hopefully the new CEO will help.
That’s just clickbait. Sure there are Vanguard customers who say the service is abysmal, but there are similar complaints at other brokerages too. Vanguard is near the top in AUM and number of customers and other customer satisfaction surveys show Vanguard at or near the top. Clearly the majority of Vanguard customers think they are doing just fine.
From the article: Vanguard ranked last out of eight major brokerages for customer satisfaction with website performance and mobile apps in a recent survey of 2,700 investors conducted by Investor’s Business Daily, which is published by The Wall Street Journal’s parent company, Dow Jones. The asset manager has acknowledged the problems, which some analysts chalk up to an underinvestment in technology.
From JD Power survey 2023

Fidelity (704) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among investors seeking guidance. E*Trade (698) ranks second and Charles Schwab (695) ranks third.

Vanguard (734) ranks highest in self-directed investor satisfaction among do-it-yourself investors. T. Rowe Price (724) ranks second and Charles Schwab (717) ranks third.
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