Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

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Dufus
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Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Dufus »

I just noticed a Fidelity Smart Money email I received 2 days ago containing:
MONEY LIE DETECTOR

Index funds can be a low-cost, low-fuss way to start investing.
True.

An index fund is a type of mutual fund or exchange-traded fund that aims to mimic the performance of an index, such as the S&P 500®, which btw hit a record high at closing on June 18.

Think of an index fund like a charcuterie board—lots of variety, from brie to pepperoni, just like the variety of stocks (or bonds in a bond index fund). And both work toward a goal of filling you up, whether in your stomach or in your account.

Buying shares of an index fund could yield similar results to buying all the stocks or bonds included in the index, in the same proportion held in the index (think: owning all 500ish stocks in the S&P 500®) but with a lot less legwork and for a lot less money. Why? Management fees are usually lower than actively managed funds because the index fund’s manager is replicating an existing index vs. actively picking a basket of stocks that seek to outperform a benchmark and routinely changing the fund’s composition.

If you’d like to invest in index funds, the first step is opening an investment account. It could be a retirement account, such as an Individual Retirement Account (IRA), or a nonretirement account, such as a regular brokerage account.

Interested? Learn how to invest in an index fund.
Not complaining, but seems like this would be against their profit interests...
bombcar
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by bombcar »

They have zero cost index funds directly to compete with vanguard.

Index funds are easy for them to run and get more assets under management which helps. Win/win.

And even here people sometimes recommend their managers so they still make theirs.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
Whakamole
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Whakamole »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
I did a portfolio review with the rep that Fidelity assigned me once. My portfolio is very Bogleheads, with a small value tilt and some (<5%) corporate stock. He only suggested that I look into municipal bond funds because of my tax bracket and didn't try to sell me on any Fidelity funds.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Gaston »

Buying shares of an index fund could yield similar results to buying all the stocks or bonds included in the index, in the same proportion held in the index.
In the above, I found the use of the word “could” amusing.

I’ve read that Fidelity was strongly anti-indexing back in the 80s and early 90s, and under Ned Johnson had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the indexing world. So I guess using the word “could” is a sign of progress.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by marcopolo »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
To which you can say "no thanks", and ask them to stop calling you, which they will.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by tibbitts »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
How is that different than Vanguard with PAS, active funds, etc.? The amount charged for different funds and services may vary, but the concept seems similar, no?
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:00 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
How is that different than Vanguard with PAS, active funds, etc.? The amount charged for different funds and services may vary, but the concept seems similar, no?
Vanguard never called me to push product. Look at the link above. Numerous threads of being called by fidelity.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
hnd
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by hnd »

Whakamole wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:12 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
I did a portfolio review with the rep that Fidelity assigned me once. My portfolio is very Bogleheads, with a small value tilt and some (<5%) corporate stock. He only suggested that I look into municipal bond funds because of my tax bracket and didn't try to sell me on any Fidelity funds.
yeah i had a fidelity guy call me a few times. finally answered and he asked if i'd like to do a review and I said sure. it was pretty great. he suggested i as a little more aggressive than he would advise but said everythign else was great.
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firebirdparts
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by firebirdparts »

I hardly ever answer the phone anymore, so it really wasn't a problem. They quit calling after 3 tries, I think.
This time is the same
dcabler
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by dcabler »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:28 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:00 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
How is that different than Vanguard with PAS, active funds, etc.? The amount charged for different funds and services may vary, but the concept seems similar, no?
Vanguard never called me to push product. Look at the link above. Numerous threads of being called by fidelity.
Yep, and many of us with Fidelity either don't answer the phone anyway and just delete the emails. Just a little more noise in my life that I simply ignore.

Cheers.
dcabler
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by dcabler »

firebirdparts wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:17 am I hardly ever answer the phone anymore, so it really wasn't a problem. They quit calling after 3 tries, I think.
And over time, even those calls/emails become less frequent. I haven't been contacted now in 3 years.

The flip side, though, is that when I need them, they've been quick to deal with any question or issue I had - the last of which was rolling over my 401K from my last employer before I retired. It went perfectly smoothly.

Cheers
tibbitts
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by tibbitts »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:28 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:00 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
How is that different than Vanguard with PAS, active funds, etc.? The amount charged for different funds and services may vary, but the concept seems similar, no?
Vanguard never called me to push product. Look at the link above. Numerous threads of being called by fidelity.
So there's a red line at calling vs. emails, pop-ups while using the website, etc.? So texting would be okay but voice not?
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by nisiprius »

Gaston wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 9:22 pm
Buying shares of an index fund could yield similar results to buying all the stocks or bonds included in the index, in the same proportion held in the index.
In the above, I found the use of the word “could” amusing.

I’ve read that Fidelity was strongly anti-indexing back in the 80s and early 90s, and under Ned Johnson had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the indexing world. So I guess using the word “could” is a sign of progress.
That may be, but I would have to say that when they got in--with what were then called the "Spartan" funds, circa 2000, managed by "Geode Capital Management," they really did a good job. You can argue, or at least could have until pretty recently, that Fidelity's line of index funds was smaller and narrower than Vanguard's. But any reasonable judgement would have said that Fidelity's index mutual funds were either

a) Second only to Vanguard's, or

b) (Arguably) second to none. (I don't happen to think so, but it really is getting into Coke-versus-Pepsi).

When I had an account at Fidelity, roughly 2007 through 2014, I did not find them pushy about managed funds. Maybe once or twice a year I'd get some low-intensity contact, sometimes a mailed card from an advisor cordially inviting me to drop in and see them so they could answer any questions I might have about anything. Sometimes a phone call. A simple "no thanks" was all it took to end the call. I once had a long session with a CFP from Fidelity's retirement branch, and as soon as I said was a "Boglehead" (which he recognized) and stuck to Vanguard index funds, he said something like "Index funds are a good choice. Fidelity has index funds that are better than Vanguard's, but, of course, you can hold Vanguard funds in a Fidelity brokerage account." Not quite straightforward--but that was the limit and we moved on to other things.
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edge
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by edge »

In some ways the PAS popups on the website are worse than calls that route directly to voicemail...
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:28 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:00 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:06 pm they get you in with their low cost funds...and then call to upsell you their other (money making) services.
How is that different than Vanguard with PAS, active funds, etc.? The amount charged for different funds and services may vary, but the concept seems similar, no?
Vanguard never called me to push product. Look at the link above. Numerous threads of being called by fidelity.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Whakamole »

edge wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:18 am In some ways the PAS popups on the website are worse than calls that route directly to voicemail...
I know of a widow who received an unsolicited phone call from Vanguard to enroll her in PAS soon after the passing of her husband. Thankfully she and one of her kids are both Bogleheads and they passed on the offer.
Last edited by Whakamole on Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bombcar
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by bombcar »

More on why Fidelity would be fine with us indexers polluting their precious system:
  • More people in their system are more potential customers, even if they never sell. Some percentage of widows, for example, will take PAS from Fidelity if that's where their husband had everything, even if Vanguard is cheaper
  • More people satisfied with them are likely to use other products like the checking/cash, etc.
  • And look how much people praise Fidelity here - if their funds were snot and you had to jump through hoops to get VTI, that praise would be much more muted. But people who are happy will mention it to colleagues, etc, some who will take high margin product.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

edge wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:18 am In some ways the PAS popups on the website are worse than calls that route directly to voicemail...
pop ups? what are those?

I use a pop up blocker.

just went to the landing page for Fidelity to see what was there:
Could you save $4,137 in taxes per year?
That's how much the average Portfolio Advisory Services client could have saved using tax-smart investing strategies.*
Learn more

*The average account balance is $709,108

source: https://www.fidelity.com/
whereas the landing page for vanguard shows:
At Vanguard you're more than just an investor, you're an owner
Vanguard isn't owned by public shareholders. It's owned by the people who invest in our funds.*

Our owners have access to personalized financial advice, high-quality investments, retirement tools, and relevant market insights that help you build a future for those you love.
The Value of Ownership
Aligned interests

Because our investors are our owners, our interests are uniquely aligned, allowing us to focus on you and your goals.
Greater conviction

Because our investors are our owners, we act with conviction on the investment themes that are important to you.
Long-term perspective

Because our investors are our owners, we can focus on the long term rather than quarterly results.
Low costs

Because our investors are our owners, it enables us to consistently pass along economies of scale and lower the cost of investing, so you keep more of your returns.
Become an
owner

source: https://investor.vanguard.com/corporate-portal
Last edited by arcticpineapplecorp. on Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
edge
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by edge »

Yes they both advertise. Vanguard more annoyingly imo. Not sure what your point is.
tibbitts
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by tibbitts »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:14 pm
edge wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:18 am In some ways the PAS popups on the website are worse than calls that route directly to voicemail...
pop ups? what are those?

I use a pop up blocker.

just went to the landing page for Fidelity to see what was there:
Could you save $4,137 in taxes per year?
That's how much the average Portfolio Advisory Services client could have saved using tax-smart investing strategies.*
Learn more

*The average account balance is $709,108

source: https://www.fidelity.com/
I'm somewhat surprised these websites are working properly for you with blockers enabled. I see the same type of promotional messages from both Vanguard and Fidelity (and TIAA for that matter.)
JustGotScammed
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by JustGotScammed »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:14 pm
edge wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:18 am In some ways the PAS popups on the website are worse than calls that route directly to voicemail...
pop ups? what are those?

I use a pop up blocker.

just went to the landing page for Fidelity to see what was there:
Could you save $4,137 in taxes per year?
That's how much the average Portfolio Advisory Services client could have saved using tax-smart investing strategies.*
Learn more

*The average account balance is $709,108

source: https://www.fidelity.com/
Pop Up Blocks are against Fidelity's Terms of Service so I would not recommend.
bople
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by bople »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:47 pm I'm somewhat surprised these websites are working properly for you with blockers enabled. I see the same type of promotional messages from both Vanguard and Fidelity (and TIAA for that matter.)
I use uBlock Origin with Fidelity—well, really with every website since I never disable it—without any problems. That is the most efficient and one of the most aggressive ad/tracker blockers with no issues and it works in all browsers. Pop-up blocking is the default for all browsers today, and doesn't need anything extra to be enabled.
JustGotScammed wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:16 pm Pop Up Blocks are against Fidelity's Terms of Service so I would not recommend.
Not sure how that is possible to be against the Terms of Service. Where did you see this?
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by tibbitts »

bople wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:56 pm
tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:47 pm I'm somewhat surprised these websites are working properly for you with blockers enabled. I see the same type of promotional messages from both Vanguard and Fidelity (and TIAA for that matter.)
I use uBlock Origin with Fidelity—well, really with every website since I never disable it—without any problems. That is the most efficient and one of the most aggressive ad/tracker blockers with no issues and it works in all browsers. Pop-up blocking is the default for all browsers today, and doesn't need anything extra to be enabled.
In the past I've definitely had to disable blocking to have full functionality on a considerably long list of sites. I've never revisited the list as long as everything has worked, so maybe that wouldn't be necessary now.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Gaston »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:02 am I once had a long session with a CFP from Fidelity's retirement branch, and as soon as I said was a "Boglehead" (which he recognized) and stuck to Vanguard index funds, he said something like "Index funds are a good choice.
Cool.
“My opinions are just that - opinions.”
Gaston
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Gaston »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:14 pm I use a pop up blocker.
May I ask which browser you use?
“My opinions are just that - opinions.”
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

Gaston wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:13 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:14 pm I use a pop up blocker.
May I ask which browser you use?
firefox, with ublock origin as already mentioned.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
gavinsiu
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by gavinsiu »

Fidelity used to have more money than Vanguard. People now like index funds, so you want customer and retention, you want to offer them even if you make less money in them. They can sell you other services and have advantage over Vanguard. Their cash products are better and they have offices. The older population likes to do things in person and they have money from decades of saving. The advertisement is smart, since it gets people in the door.

For browsers, I prefer firefox mainly because other than Safari, it's the only browser not based on Chromium. Google has been trying to make ad blocker more difficult. In firefox, I can use ublock origin and I also use the multi-container to isolate google, and Microsoft into their own container to reduce tracking. I haven't encountered too many issues. The blockers do affect saving your device for 2FA bypass.
bople
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by bople »

gavinsiu wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:35 pm For browsers, I prefer firefox mainly because other than Safari, it's the only browser not based on Chromium. Google has been trying to make ad blocker more difficult. In firefox, I can use ublock origin and I also use the multi-container to isolate google, and Microsoft into their own container to reduce tracking. I haven't encountered too many issues. The blockers do affect saving your device for 2FA bypass.
Yeah, Firefox Containers are a true killer feature.

Chromium =/= Google though, it is the underlying open-source project which provides the rendering platform and JavaScript complier that then gets "chrome" (yes confusing, since chrome is the generic name for UI/UX in browsers) to have it become Chrome, Edge, Brave, etc. I really wish one of the Chromium derived browsers would implement Containers since Profiles are so much clunkier.

You can fix the 2FA bypass not working with uBlock Origin if you put the following into your uBlock Origin -> Settings -> My rules page in the Temporary rules pane and then commit it to make it permanent.

Code: Select all

fidelity.com fidelity.com * allow
It will be interesting to watch how the whole Manifest V3 situation shakes out, and how much usage it could drive to Firefox—or not. If you want to punt for a year, you can always make Chrome delay the deprecation till June 2025 with https://chromeenterprise.google/policie ... ailability. It would be great to have Firefox become a significant chunk of browser usage again.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by AllMostThere »

Fidelity is great on domestic, international and bond Index funds all with really low ER's (few are 0% - Zero Funds). Something to be aware is that when investing with Target Date funds, they offer two versions with similar AA but drastically different ER's. Their standard "Freedom" Target date funds have ER's 0.48% - 0.75%, while their "Freedom Index" Target data funds have ER's ~ 0.12%. The Fidelity Rep's may push you towards the standard "Freedom" products, so be sure to insist upon the "Freedom Index" products.

Ex:
Fidelity Freedom® 2045 Fund (FFFGX) - ER ~ 0.75%
Fidelity Freedom® Index 2045 Fund (FIOFX) - ER ~ 0.12%

https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/f ... s/overview
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MRusso
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by MRusso »

Dufus wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:04 pm I just noticed a Fidelity Smart Money email I received 2 days ago containing:
MONEY LIE DETECTOR

Index funds can be a low-cost, low-fuss way to start investing.
True.

An index fund is a type of mutual fund or exchange-traded fund that aims to mimic the performance of an index, such as the S&P 500®, which btw hit a record high at closing on June 18.

Think of an index fund like a charcuterie board—lots of variety, from brie to pepperoni, just like the variety of stocks (or bonds in a bond index fund). And both work toward a goal of filling you up, whether in your stomach or in your account.

Buying shares of an index fund could yield similar results to buying all the stocks or bonds included in the index, in the same proportion held in the index (think: owning all 500ish stocks in the S&P 500®) but with a lot less legwork and for a lot less money. Why? Management fees are usually lower than actively managed funds because the index fund’s manager is replicating an existing index vs. actively picking a basket of stocks that seek to outperform a benchmark and routinely changing the fund’s composition.

If you’d like to invest in index funds, the first step is opening an investment account. It could be a retirement account, such as an Individual Retirement Account (IRA), or a nonretirement account, such as a regular brokerage account.

Interested? Learn how to invest in an index fund.
Not complaining, but seems like this would be against their profit interests...

That is not true.

Fidelity has been offering low cost index funds for a very long time and some of their offerings have expense ratios that are lower than other brokerage firms including Vanguard.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by MRusso »

edge wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:33 pm Yes they both advertise. Vanguard more annoyingly imo. Not sure what your point is.
I think the author of this thread might not actually understand that Fidelity is no different than all the other brokerage firms. Hopefully they gain some knowledge and insight from the responses.
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Dufus
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Dufus »

I'm aware that Fidelity has a number of index funds and I'm in 3 of them. My point is that I was surprised that they were promoting index funds in their email. I thought they would be promoting their other products that they make more money on. That's generally the point of advertising. :)
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by SmileyFace »

Dufus wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:27 pm I'm aware that Fidelity has a number of index funds and I'm in 3 of them. My point is that I was surprised that they were promoting index funds in their email. I thought they would be promoting their other products that they make more money on. That's generally the point of advertising. :)
They also promote ETFs from blackrock. They suggested ITOT to me.

All this talk of Fidelity being the big bad wolf is simply rediculous.

And those that fear a phone call - just tell them you are a DIY investor and to please note in your account no phone calls. They will politely say "no problem, call if you ever need help". And they will give some free guidance if needed - without just pushing PAS on you instead which is what Vanguard will do.

Fidelity never pushed anything on me while Vanguard pushed PAS and active bond funds. I always find the "oh my! They might actually call you!" FUD laughable. Don't be scared - answer the phone, talk to them, and let them know you are all set and will call them for help if needed and they will never call again. It is pretty simply. They won't keep calling. Trust yourself on a phone call. I don't get this continuous worry about getting a phone call.
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Jagger »

SmileyFace: +1
Tom_T
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by Tom_T »

I have a decent-sized account at Fidelity. When I first opened it two years ago, they called a couple of times. Since then, no phone calls and no emails. I have no complaints. :)
rkhusky
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by rkhusky »

Within a couple days of getting an inherited IRA, wife received a call from a Fidelity salesman. IRA was quickly moved to Vanguard.
lws
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by lws »

It makes good business sense for them to promote index funds.
PersonalFinanceJam
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by PersonalFinanceJam »

SmileyFace wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:54 pm ...
All this talk of Fidelity being the big bad wolf is simply rediculous.

And those that fear a phone call - just tell them you are a DIY investor and to please note in your account no phone calls. They will politely say "no problem, call if you ever need help". And they will give some free guidance if needed - without just pushing PAS on you instead which is what Vanguard will do.

Fidelity never pushed anything on me while Vanguard pushed PAS and active bond funds. I always find the "oh my! They might actually call you!" FUD laughable. Don't be scared - answer the phone, talk to them, and let them know you are all set and will call them for help if needed and they will never call again. It is pretty simply. They won't keep calling. Trust yourself on a phone call. I don't get this continuous worry about getting a phone call.
I think it's mostly a Bogleheads.org issue due to its genesis from the Morningstar days. The reddit r/Bogleheads seems a fair bit closer to "Investing advice inspired by Jack Bogle" and less a Vanguard fan forum. Other financial focused forums I go to don't seem to have this problem either. Everyone needs a reason to justify their actions when there is no clear definitive consensus answer.

My favorite part about the phone issue are the responses along the lines of "well sure maybe you can tell them you know what you are doing but just wait until you are gone! What are your poor widow and orphans going to do?"
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Re: Fidelity Promoting Index Funds?

Post by SmileyFace »

PersonalFinanceJam wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2024 2:24 pm My favorite part about the phone issue are the responses along the lines of "well sure maybe you can tell them you know what you are doing but just wait until you are gone! What are your poor widow and orphans going to do?"
I know - it's insulting. And as if you need to be a customer to get a phone call from either a real financial firm or a scam.
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