Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

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Valuethinker
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

Nohbdy wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 12:06 am
RandomGuyOnInternet wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:41 pm All,

I need to purchase a vehicle this August. Below are the relevant details:

Colorado Resident
45 miles daily commute
Passengers - Mostly just me commuting to work, but will serve as back-up to family car. Must hold 5 people (2 adults, 3 kids) in a pinch.
Cargo - Compact car capacity is ok
Priorities (in order) - 1) Low true cost to own; 2) Reliability; 3) Safety; 4) Comfort; 5) Style

I'm leaning toward a Honda Civic Hatchback LX (~$26 MSRP), but the current federal ($7500) and state ($5000) rebates for EV purchases in Colorado make me think I must be missing a better deal out there. With the Chevy Bolt EUV currently on hiatus, I can't find it. What am I missing?

In addition, I've never leased a vehicle, but would consider it if the federal rebates helps drive the TCO below the Civic.

Appreciate your help. Thanks.

RandomGuy
1) If cost to own is by far your biggest priority then I believe a used EV would be hard to beat. Where I live one can buy a used EV with the range that you need for $10k. I recently replaced a corolla with a used leaf and my fully loaded running cost per mile dropped by half. No gas, no oil, and there are free chargers around (although increasingly the trendy teslas tie up all the chargers). Tires do cost more.
2) The EV has less moving parts but the battery does diminish over time. Ours is almost 10 years old and the battery is about 75% of what it was when it was new. Everybody has their favorite brands of course. I think there’s tons of variation in individual cars and the sorts of random events and conditions that we encounter. Climate could be worth considering - EV batteries wear out faster when very hot, but range can suffer when it’s very cold.

I’d suggest reading consumer reports regarding safety. The last 2 seem very subjective to me but I’m rolling around in a 10 year old nissan leaf so comfort and style are probably not very high on my list, either.
My understanding is a lot of the concerns with battery life came from one model of one car - the Nissan Leaf?

Leafs before a certain date had a uniquely bad battery cooling configuration. Did Nissan not replace them via a recall?
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just frank
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by just frank »

PoorPlumber wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 6:06 pm I am new here. Read some details in this thread, and I'm sure I missed some details.

One thing that I may have missed is discussion of the current Federal Tax Credits rules associated with EV's. (Obviously, state credits will vary.)

If I understand them correctly, $3,750.00 or $7,500.00 MAY be available. Not WILL be available.

The federal credits amount is based upon your income and federal taxable income. Again, if I am understanding correctly.
So, for example:
If you make X which requires you to pay $5,000.00 in federal taxes through the year, your credit can only be a maximum of $5,000.00. No, it will not be $7,500.00. And any remaining amount is not available next year.

The dealer will be registered to file paperwork and WILL immediately credit the credit of $7,500.00 to the price. (Provided it's qualified for the full credit. Some vehicles aren't.) However, due to the dealer required filing the extra amount will roll back to you to pay back and/or be taxable.

Also, as noted earlier, not all EV's are eligible for the full federal credit. Rules are in place for sourced mineral locations as well as location of manufacturing. The Chinese manufacturers will have to make it in the US and source materials from approved locations to be certified to receive partial or full credit.

As for EV vs. ICE? I don't know....depends on each individual situation I guess? I've looked at all available from time to time over the past 5 years. For me it's a no. Why?

I'm in a state with pretty much zero credit. No, seriously..like zero.

The power company will credit roughly $1,000.00 towards home charger/installation. I haven't checked that far honestly but am pretty sure there will be more costs.

I like mechanical things and work on some as well. So I'm checking and working almost daily on different things for years. The only proven stable system has been Tesla in my opinion. And while this is so, I really just don't like them! lol. I find the big screens in them (the first) and other vehicles (even ICE ones) that followed suit annoying and just plain tacky to be honest. I know, I'm old mannish. lol.

While many will espouse their love for them, there are many owners that have had battery issues prematurely (Again in my opinion. But they should have 80% capacity at 200,000 miles to me. I don't want a physics fight though. lol) and Tesla would not do anything except offer replacement for $12,000.00 to $15,000.00. Rich Rebuilds on YT addresses this.

On the other hand, 300,000 mile Honda or other ICE vehicle could throw a rod, and a replacement engine from a wreck can be sourced for I'm guessing $2,000.00 and the Honda will go another 150,000 miles. Many, many, people & mechanics can complete this task.

Which mechanic or garage is widely available for your Tesla when the battery is at 50%?
I know, I know, it'll be dumped on someone else to deal with...
This is happening all the time right now and to me is the quiet dirty secret of EV's.

Bringing up another point...How will a decently maintained Honda, Toyota, etc. perform at 200,000+ miles? I'll answer: Almost exactly like it did at 2,000 miles.

EV's commonly won't do that. And that's why people dump them to get something else.

Finally, what's your time worth? Mine is everything to me. I actually timed my vehicle fill up recently. From getting out, putting the credit card in, pumping the fuel into a 1/8 full tank, and hanging the pump dispenser back up...2 minutes.

2 minutes and I'm gone with around 350 miles range.

My vehicle? A 1999 Mercury Grand Marquis. Yep. But I'm a Poor Plumber! :(
For a person who values their time, you spend a lot of time researching vehicles that you are reluctant to buy?

What if you can lease a brand new EV for like $200-300/mo or less (after incentives and rebates to the dealer) and drive it under warranty for 3 years (no worries about longevity), with zero maintenance, and almost zero fuel costs? No worries about depreciation, and it charges while I'm sleeping, so no trips to the gas station at all.

Sounds like a nightmare to me. I don't know how I sleep at night.
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just frank
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by just frank »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:15 am My understanding is a lot of the concerns with battery life came from one model of one car - the Nissan Leaf?

Leafs before a certain date had a uniquely bad battery cooling configuration. Did Nissan not replace them via a recall?
Only ones that degraded to violate the warranty were replaced, and those were mostly in warm climates like Arizona and SoCal. I don't remember there being any recalls that replaced the battery. The issue was that the battery has a heater for cold weather, but was passively air cooled. Every time you fast charged, the battery temp jumped 30°C and take hours to cool back down. On a road trip, you could fry the battery.

The chemistry was improved in 2013 to make it slightly more durable, but many 2010-2012 LEAFs are still running around with very low battery capacity. My buddy has one... I think it can go 40 miles?
lazydavid
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by lazydavid »

mpnret wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 4:11 pm This looked real interesting until I pulled out Consumer Reports. Out of approximately 250 cars tested the Polestar 2 was second to last. Even the Mitsubishi Mirage beat it.
Lol, and if you try to dig into WHY it is rated so low, they give you this gem:
Consumer Reports wrote:No Detailed Data Available

For some model years, typically those of older or less popular cars, we do not have a large enough sample size to provide results of statistical confidence.
So they have no data and are not confident in the results, but are perfectly happy to publish them. CR is an even bigger sham than I thought.
dsmclone
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by dsmclone »

I've owned 15+ cars in my life time, 7 of which were different Honda models. I love Honda vehicles and always recommended them to my friends. With that out of the way, go drive a Tesla Model Y. I really don't get how anyone that enjoys driving would pick a Civic over a model Y. The technology, the one pedal driving experience, the exotic sports car acceleration, etc. After driving my wifes Model Y, when I get back into my Kia Telluride, the drivetrain feels like it's from the 50's, and the Kia has been the best SUV in the class for the last 5 years. If you can get a Model Y LR for mid 30's, it's an absolute steal.

Consumer reports just said that the Model Y is one of the cheapest cars to maintain.

They drive great in the winter. Heavy and AWD.

I have a dedicated computer running software that analyzes everything about the Tesla. We've now had this running almost a year and with 90+% of our charging done at home at .11c/kwh, it will cost me roughly $450 year in energy. That includes a pretty mild winter but also includes me driving it like a stole it.

The only thing I would warn you about is insurance. I have a Kia Telluride, which has a $52k msrp and a Tesla Model Y LR with a similar MSRP, and the Tesla costs almost double in insurance.
TravellingTechOnFire
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

dsmclone wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:40 am
The only thing I would warn you about is insurance. I have a Kia Telluride, which has a $52k msrp and a Tesla Model Y LR with a similar MSRP, and the Tesla costs almost double in insurance.
You should shop around a bit. Most people are able to insure Tesla for the same or less than other vehicles, myself included. Some companies are way above the norm. I think the cheaper rates most people get are because Tesla's are such a safe vehicle...the risk of injury to passengers is very low compared to most other cars, and Tesla's superior accident avoidance tech helps here as well.

We pay ~$120/month for full coverage on a 2023 Model 3 AWD and a 2022 Kia Niro EV including a 20 year old driver on the policy. Rate was double with my previous carrier.
dsmclone
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by dsmclone »

TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:58 am
dsmclone wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:40 am
The only thing I would warn you about is insurance. I have a Kia Telluride, which has a $52k msrp and a Tesla Model Y LR with a similar MSRP, and the Tesla costs almost double in insurance.
You should shop around a bit. Most people are able to insure Tesla for the same or less than other vehicles, myself included. Some companies are way above the norm. I think the cheaper rates most people get are because Tesla's are such a safe vehicle...the risk of injury to passengers is very low compared to most other cars, and Tesla's superior accident avoidance tech helps here as well.

We pay ~$120/month for full coverage on a 2023 Model 3 AWD and a 2022 Kia Niro EV including a 20 year old driver on the policy. Rate was double with my previous carrier.
I did end up shopping around and got a lower rate, but my Telluride is still a lot cheaper to insure

I pay $840/yr for the Model Y
I pay $546/yr for the Telluride

$115/month combined

Before switching, the Model Y was going to be over $1,100
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RandomGuyOnInternet
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by RandomGuyOnInternet »

dsmclone wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:40 am The only thing I would warn you about is insurance. I have a Kia Telluride, which has a $52k msrp and a Tesla Model Y LR with a similar MSRP, and the Tesla costs almost double in insurance.
Thanks for that. I'm also planning on a Telluride for the family vehicle. My insurance company quoted me:

Model Y - $687.02/ 6 months
Telluride - $606.80/ 6 months

Civic was only about $12/month less than Model Y.

RandomGuy
aquaman
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

dsmclone wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:40 am I really don't get how anyone that enjoys driving would pick a Civic over a model Y. The technology, the one pedal driving experience, the exotic sports car acceleration, etc.
One of my best friends is on his second Model Y (the first one was totaled in an accident, to which the Model Y's technology very heavily contributed), so I am fairly familiar with it. The acceleration is fun, but from the overall driving dynamics perspective, plenty of people would pick a Civic over a model Y. That's not a fair comparison, of course, as the Civic is much closer to the ground, over 1K lbs lighter and can't store nearly as much as a model Y. In other words, when it comes to the overall driving experience, some of it is less about the ICE vs. EV debate and more about a small car vs. SUV issue.

The "technology" comments always make me smile. For a lot of EV buyers, the technology is one of the things that heavily attracts them to EV's in the first place. In fact, auto manufacturers seem to be targeting techy buyers with their EV models by adding lots of technology that has very little to do with the electric platform. What these techy buyers do not realize, and what seems so foreign to them, is how all this technology triggers the exact opposite reaction from a very significant segment of the population, who want to just drive rather than feel like they first have to take a tech course to relearn such basic things like how to operate wipers and how to fill up.

All this technology is also one of the things that causes significant depreciation concerns, as all technology becomes stale fairly quickly. Sure, there are over the air updates, but just like with phone updates, they can only do so much.
Consumer reports just said that the Model Y is one of the cheapest cars to maintain.
This excludes depreciation, which is one of the most important factors in total ownership costs.
I have a dedicated computer running software that analyzes everything about the Tesla. We've now had this running almost a year and with 90+% of our charging done at home at .11c/kwh
Unfortunately, most people do not run these calculations correctly.

For instance, with gas, the price at the pump includes all taxes, and you can then subtract the 5% or so credit card cashback. With electricity, the price per kwh that people quote frequently does not include various taxes and surcharges, which can increase the overall price quite a bit. Likewise, with electricity, lots of people fail to factor in things like charging losses. Obviously, solar, deeply discounted time of day EV rates from the power companies, free charging at work, etc... can cut the other way as well.
billaster
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by billaster »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:15 am My understanding is a lot of the concerns with battery life came from one model of one car - the Nissan Leaf?
That was over a decade ago, before Tesla really got started. It was only a problem in a few areas like Phoenix where temperatures often got above 110 F. Since then they have a new battery chemistry some call the lizard battery. Most of those older LEAFs are still on the road if not in Phoenix.
aquaman
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

just frank wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:09 am What if you can lease a brand new EV for like $200-300/mo or less (after incentives and rebates to the dealer) and drive it under warranty for 3 years (no worries about longevity), with zero maintenance, and almost zero fuel costs? No worries about depreciation, and it charges while I'm sleeping, so no trips to the gas station at all.
At least with Costco's Polestar 2 deal right now, it's $299/month for 27 months with $1K down, plus taxes and fees. In a lot of locales people are reporting additional dealer and other fees totaling another $2K or so, plus taxes. So, for a lot of people and situations it's not all that attractive.
fasteddie911
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by fasteddie911 »

What's your electricity rate and charging situation like? Having free electricity via solar panels and using the wall charger is far different than living in a condo and having to pay for public charging.
PoorPlumber
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by PoorPlumber »

[/quote]
For a person who values their time, you spend a lot of time researching vehicles that you are reluctant to buy?

What if you can lease a brand new EV for like $200-300/mo or less (after incentives and rebates to the dealer) and drive it under warranty for 3 years (no worries about longevity), with zero maintenance, and almost zero fuel costs? No worries about depreciation, and it charges while I'm sleeping, so no trips to the gas station at all.

Sounds like a nightmare to me. I don't know how I sleep at night.
[/quote]

How much time do or did I spend? How much is "a lot"? Is it time not well used to research what is commonly the second highest cost item they purchase?

Maybe you value your time in a different way. And that's ok. I see many EV owners sitting in their cars at public charging stations for an hour or more on their phones. Probably claiming to "get things done" while there. That's their time and how they want to spend it.

Different strokes for different folks.

You do bring up some good points. The best thing about EV's to me is home charging. Nothing better than never HAVING to go to a gas station. Wake up and the vehicle is "full".
I actually looked into getting an EV for a relative about a year ago with this in time. (Wasted time?) Nope, didn't get it. Person has limited mobility, knows what they know, and I would likely be getting a call more than once saying..."I forgot to plug it in! I got a doctor's appointment in 30 minutes and the screen says empty!"

What about leasing as you've mentioned? Haven't checked into this in awhile so it may be helpful to me or others.

I looked up the most basic current Model 3 lease available for my area. Here are the simplified estimated lease terms and costs:
3 year lease
$299.00 a month. (The "Lease After Probable Savings" price is a double talk way of attempting to confuse & discourage price comparison in my opinion.)$2,999.00 Down due at time of lease.
$299.00 for first months payment.
$695.00 for an acquisition fee?
$395.00 "Disposition Fee" that lease vehicles "may" be subject too. Safe to assume it applies.
$450.00 Wall connector for home.
$250.00 Mobile connector.
$250.00 Order Fee (Non-refundable.)
$???? Sales Tax. It only says pending as I didn't complete the order so that's unknown.
And terms of lease state mileage will be charged for anything over 10,000 miles a year at a rate of .25 cents per mile.


Think that covers the numbers for paying Tesla. This excludes electricity cost, insurance cost, the mystery tax noted, permitting with the city for the wall home wall connector, and paying a licensed electrician.

So, with the given numbers above and if one doesn't go over the 10,000 mile allowance, the total amount you would pay to Tesla over 3 years is:
$15,803.00.
And at the end of the lease, you own nothing at the end and must turn the car back in to Tesla.
Annual cost is: $5,267.66
Monthly cost is: $438.97

Again, this is provided one doesn't go over the 10,000 mile allowance.

If you were to go say....15,000 miles, the total amount you would pay to Tesla over 3 years is:
$17,053.00. And again, you own nothing at the end and must turn the car back in to Tesla.
Annual cost is: $5684.33
Monthly cost is: $473.66

These should be reasonably constant and "true" costs for a Model 3 RWD basic that one would pay to Tesla. The KWh, insurances, locations, etc. are variables that will vary enough they wouldn't be helpful to list. Although it would be safe to say that the Fuel vs KWh costs would be a significant' savings with the Model 3 being much less expensive to drive per mile.

Your other point about warranty and worry. Means zero with zero value to me.
Depreciation also does not factor for me at all.
(I do recognize these are things others are concerned with and willing to pay for however.)

My total current costs for operation (fuel) and last year's maintenance for the vehicle. (Excludes, tax, insurance, etc.)
$2,443.33.
Monthly cost is: $203.61

I am currently happy driving the old, reliable, boat and investing the $250.00 per month difference. Hope this helps someone to decide to lease or not to lease. It was a fun waste of time. :D
cmr79
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by cmr79 »

I think people who are worried about not being able to drive >500 miles without stopping or needing to spend more than an hour at a DCFC on a road trip are as unrealistic as the people who think the agony of spending 5 minutes every 1-2 weeks at a gas station should be a driving factor in what type of vehicle to get. Our biases show in which way we hyperbolize these relatively meaningless things.
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just frank
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by just frank »

PoorPlumber wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 12:42 pm
So, with the given numbers above and if one doesn't go over the 10,000 mile allowance, the total amount you would pay to Tesla over 3 years is:
$15,803.00.
And at the end of the lease, you own nothing at the end and must turn the car back in to Tesla.
Annual cost is: $5,267.66
Monthly cost is: $438.97

Again, this is provided one doesn't go over the 10,000 mile allowance.

If you were to go say....15,000 miles, the total amount you would pay to Tesla over 3 years is:
$17,053.00. And again, you own nothing at the end and must turn the car back in to Tesla.
Annual cost is: $5684.33
Monthly cost is: $473.66

These should be reasonably constant and "true" costs for a Model 3 RWD basic that one would pay to Tesla. The KWh, insurances, locations, etc. are variables that will vary enough they wouldn't be helpful to list. Although it would be safe to say that the Fuel vs KWh costs would be a significant' savings with the Model 3 being much less expensive to drive per mile.

Your other point about warranty and worry. Means zero with zero value to me.
Depreciation also does not factor for me at all.
(I do recognize these are things others are concerned with and willing to pay for however.)

My total current costs for operation (fuel) and last year's maintenance for the vehicle. (Excludes, tax, insurance, etc.)
$2,443.33.
Monthly cost is: $203.61

I am currently happy driving the old, reliable, boat and investing the $250.00 per month difference. Hope this helps someone to decide to lease or not to lease. It was a fun waste of time. :D
Not sure why I would get a 10k mile lease if I was going to drive it 15k miles? And take out the home charger and its <$200mo with your numbers between a Tesla and a 25 year old Grand Marquis. I'd reckon the former is a lot safer, and could justify the expenditure on that alone.

Maybe I was thinking about my 'paid off' Toyota 2003 Camry that guzzled gas and needed $1500-2000 in repairs every year for several years before I sold it for chump change. Much more expensive to operate than the 2017 Chevy Bolt I drove for 18 mos before it was totaled. After rebates and the insurance payout, that car cost me less than zero to own and operate for 18 mos.
bloom2708
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by bloom2708 »

What about snow/ice days?

Consider a Toyota Corolla LE Hybrid AWD in the mix. You can get for ~$26 to $27k. The AWD might help in some scenarios.

One option is to stay home/work from home when the weather is terrible.

Otherwise, I'd pick the Civic over a full EV. Maybe not in 10 years, but now is still now.
Finridge
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Finridge »

Hondas are not as reliable as they used to be. And if you get a Honda, do NOT get one with the 1.5L turbocharged engine.

I would go with a Toyota hybrid or plug-in hybrid. I would avoid Honda.
lazydavid
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by lazydavid »

Finridge wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 4:27 pm Hondas are not as reliable as they used to be. And if you get a Honda, do NOT get one with the 1.5L turbocharged engine.
Your first statement is definitely true. However, the oil dilution issues that plagued the 1.5T were resolved in 2021, and for some reason most prevalent by far in the CRV. Civics and Accords were not immune, but the issue seemed much rarer with them.
teCh0010
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by teCh0010 »

I got a Model 3 in Nov, the math worked out for me.

After the $7500 rebate the price of the can including destination and fees was $31490.

I’ve used 1507 KwH to drive 6143 miles and it cost $203.45 in electricity. In a civic getting 35MPG combined at $3.50 a gallon it would have cost me $614.30.

My insurance is $539 every 6 months for 250/500/250.
aquaman
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

cmr79 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 12:58 pm I think people who are worried about not being able to drive >500 miles without stopping or needing to spend more than an hour at a DCFC on a road trip are as unrealistic as the people who think the agony of spending 5 minutes every 1-2 weeks at a gas station should be a driving factor in what type of vehicle to get. Our biases show in which way we hyperbolize these relatively meaningless things.
As I've previously mentioned, everything that you just said is true, but unfortunately, there is a lot more to it.

A gas station is typically on your way anyway (because there are so many of them everywhere) and is right off the highway, so getting to and from it only takes a minute or two. There are far fewer charging locations out there, so while the charging stop itself may "only" be 25 minutes, this ignores the fact that you may need to take a detour to get to and from the charging location.

Then, people frequently (and correctly) point out that a lot of charging locations (particularly Tesla superchargers) are near shopping malls and the like, where you might want to stop anyway to grab a bite to eat. As I've previously pointed out, however, that's not always a good thing. In my city, for instance, a Tesla supercharger is, in fact, next to a popular shopping mall, which is in a very busy location, so god help you if you decide to stop there to supercharge during one of the major holidays. Another supercharger is right off the highway, but is in an enormous multi-level parking deck. If you are not already familiar with the deck, getting in and out of it and finding the superchargers there wouldn't be particularly easy.

Then, there's concerns like this (see post #92): https://rennlist.com/forums/politics-an ... ing-7.html It's a Porsche Taycan thread, but the concerns expressed there are fairly universal. I'll quote the post:

"I have “public charger anxiety”.
Will the charger work?
Will there be a line?
If we’re waiting, is someone going to cut ahead of all of us waiting in line?
Will the chargers be blocked by a semi-truck? Did some rednecks decide to ICE the station?
Will the only working charger be occupied by a Chevy Bolt for 4+ hours, because they don’t understand idle fees and/or basic courtesy?
Am I going to get stuck on a slow 150kw charger (or less), because the Chevy Bolts took all of the 350kw chargers?
Will I be stuck waiting while someone insists on charging to 100% despite their car being at 99% for the past hour?
Can I trust the recent Plugshare reports and rating to be accurate?
Am I going to show up and find a charging site offline, because it’s not actually up yet and/or finally being upgraded?
This is the stuff that I worry about and have personally experienced — heck, all of the above during the past 5 days of road trips. Over 50k miles in to EV road tripping adventures, I plan around this stuff… obsessively. As a result, I’ve never been left walking, but I am always relieved to complete a successful stop without much hassle. It should also be noted that Tesla superchargers aren’t immune from the above."

The poster in question has been around for 4 years, has made 4,942 posts and is a well known and respected member of the forum.
teCh0010
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by teCh0010 »

aquaman wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:50 pm
cmr79 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 12:58 pm I think people who are worried about not being able to drive >500 miles without stopping or needing to spend more than an hour at a DCFC on a road trip are as unrealistic as the people who think the agony of spending 5 minutes every 1-2 weeks at a gas station should be a driving factor in what type of vehicle to get. Our biases show in which way we hyperbolize these relatively meaningless things.
As I've previously mentioned, everything that you just said is true, but unfortunately, there is a lot more to it.

A gas station is typically on your way anyway (because there are so many of them everywhere) and is right off the highway, so getting to and from it only takes a minute or two. There are far fewer charging locations out there, so while the charging stop itself may "only" be 25 minutes, this ignores the fact that you may need to take a detour to get to and from the charging location.

Then, people frequently (and correctly) point out that a lot of charging locations (particularly Tesla superchargers) are near shopping malls and the like, where you might want to stop anyway to grab a bite to eat. As I've previously pointed out, however, that's not always a good thing. In my city, for instance, a Tesla supercharger is, in fact, next to a popular shopping mall, which is in a very busy location, so god help you if you decide to stop there to supercharge during one of the major holidays. Another supercharger is right off the highway, but is in an enormous multi-level parking deck. If you are not already familiar with the deck, getting in and out of it and finding the superchargers there wouldn't be particularly easy.

Then, there's concerns like this (see post #92): https://rennlist.com/forums/politics-an ... ing-7.html It's a Porsche Taycan thread, but the concerns expressed there are fairly universal. I'll quote the post:

"I have “public charger anxiety”.
Will the charger work?
Will there be a line?
If we’re waiting, is someone going to cut ahead of all of us waiting in line?
Will the chargers be blocked by a semi-truck? Did some rednecks decide to ICE the station?
Will the only working charger be occupied by a Chevy Bolt for 4+ hours, because they don’t understand idle fees and/or basic courtesy?
Am I going to get stuck on a slow 150kw charger (or less), because the Chevy Bolts took all of the 350kw chargers?
Will I be stuck waiting while someone insists on charging to 100% despite their car being at 99% for the past hour?
Can I trust the recent Plugshare reports and rating to be accurate?
Am I going to show up and find a charging site offline, because it’s not actually up yet and/or finally being upgraded?
This is the stuff that I worry about and have personally experienced — heck, all of the above during the past 5 days of road trips. Over 50k miles in to EV road tripping adventures, I plan around this stuff… obsessively. As a result, I’ve never been left walking, but I am always relieved to complete a successful stop without much hassle. It should also be noted that Tesla superchargers aren’t immune from the above."

The poster in question has been around for 4 years, has made 4,942 posts and is a well known and respected member of the forum.
I have a Model 3, I’ve road tripped it. You just plug in the destination and let the nav route you through superchargers. It just works.


The nav reports wait times if a supercharger is full, and will send you to another one if you have the range.


A lot of the anxiety in the Porsche forum is alleviated by the Supercharger network being vastly superior to electrify America.

I have a gas SUV and it’s our primary road trip vehicle, but I have no concerns taking off in the Tesla and for shorter (within 250 - 400 miles) am starting to prefer it for the fatigue reduction of autopilot on the interstate.
aquaman
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

teCh0010 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 8:06 pm
aquaman wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:50 pm
cmr79 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 12:58 pm I think people who are worried about not being able to drive >500 miles without stopping or needing to spend more than an hour at a DCFC on a road trip are as unrealistic as the people who think the agony of spending 5 minutes every 1-2 weeks at a gas station should be a driving factor in what type of vehicle to get. Our biases show in which way we hyperbolize these relatively meaningless things.
As I've previously mentioned, everything that you just said is true, but unfortunately, there is a lot more to it.

A gas station is typically on your way anyway (because there are so many of them everywhere) and is right off the highway, so getting to and from it only takes a minute or two. There are far fewer charging locations out there, so while the charging stop itself may "only" be 25 minutes, this ignores the fact that you may need to take a detour to get to and from the charging location.

Then, people frequently (and correctly) point out that a lot of charging locations (particularly Tesla superchargers) are near shopping malls and the like, where you might want to stop anyway to grab a bite to eat. As I've previously pointed out, however, that's not always a good thing. In my city, for instance, a Tesla supercharger is, in fact, next to a popular shopping mall, which is in a very busy location, so god help you if you decide to stop there to supercharge during one of the major holidays. Another supercharger is right off the highway, but is in an enormous multi-level parking deck. If you are not already familiar with the deck, getting in and out of it and finding the superchargers there wouldn't be particularly easy.

Then, there's concerns like this (see post #92): https://rennlist.com/forums/politics-an ... ing-7.html It's a Porsche Taycan thread, but the concerns expressed there are fairly universal. I'll quote the post:

"I have “public charger anxiety”.
Will the charger work?
Will there be a line?
If we’re waiting, is someone going to cut ahead of all of us waiting in line?
Will the chargers be blocked by a semi-truck? Did some rednecks decide to ICE the station?
Will the only working charger be occupied by a Chevy Bolt for 4+ hours, because they don’t understand idle fees and/or basic courtesy?
Am I going to get stuck on a slow 150kw charger (or less), because the Chevy Bolts took all of the 350kw chargers?
Will I be stuck waiting while someone insists on charging to 100% despite their car being at 99% for the past hour?
Can I trust the recent Plugshare reports and rating to be accurate?
Am I going to show up and find a charging site offline, because it’s not actually up yet and/or finally being upgraded?
This is the stuff that I worry about and have personally experienced — heck, all of the above during the past 5 days of road trips. Over 50k miles in to EV road tripping adventures, I plan around this stuff… obsessively. As a result, I’ve never been left walking, but I am always relieved to complete a successful stop without much hassle. It should also be noted that Tesla superchargers aren’t immune from the above."

The poster in question has been around for 4 years, has made 4,942 posts and is a well known and respected member of the forum.
I have a Model 3, I’ve road tripped it. You just plug in the destination and let the nav route you through superchargers. It just works.


The nav reports wait times if a supercharger is full, and will send you to another one if you have the range.


A lot of the anxiety in the Porsche forum is alleviated by the Supercharger network being vastly superior to electrify America.
Please take a closer look at the post to which you've responded, which addresses all of this.
Finridge
Posts: 1134
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:27 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Finridge »

lazydavid wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 4:40 pm
Finridge wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 4:27 pm Hondas are not as reliable as they used to be. And if you get a Honda, do NOT get one with the 1.5L turbocharged engine.
Your first statement is definitely true. However, the oil dilution issues that plagued the 1.5T were resolved in 2021, and for some reason most prevalent by far in the CRV. Civics and Accords were not immune, but the issue seemed much rarer with them.
The oil dilution issue is just one of the problems this engine has. Other problems: the injectors go bad (an expensive repair) and the head gasket goes mad (a VERY expensive repair.) That's why I recommend staying away from Honda in general and this engine in particular. And for the many many people who have had these issues, Honda has not been taking care of them. And they were not fast in acknowledging and fixing the problems. They are still pretending nothing went wrong.

I'm sure that on average, Honda is no worse than most other manufacturers. But Honda used to have a reputation for better reliability and people pay a premium for Hondas expecting reliability. I don't think that premium is justifiable anymore. You can get similar quality paying less for some other brands, or if reliability is important, than get a Toyota.
teCh0010
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:20 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by teCh0010 »

aquaman wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 9:06 pm
teCh0010 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 8:06 pm
aquaman wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:50 pm
cmr79 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 12:58 pm I think people who are worried about not being able to drive >500 miles without stopping or needing to spend more than an hour at a DCFC on a road trip are as unrealistic as the people who think the agony of spending 5 minutes every 1-2 weeks at a gas station should be a driving factor in what type of vehicle to get. Our biases show in which way we hyperbolize these relatively meaningless things.
As I've previously mentioned, everything that you just said is true, but unfortunately, there is a lot more to it.

A gas station is typically on your way anyway (because there are so many of them everywhere) and is right off the highway, so getting to and from it only takes a minute or two. There are far fewer charging locations out there, so while the charging stop itself may "only" be 25 minutes, this ignores the fact that you may need to take a detour to get to and from the charging location.

Then, people frequently (and correctly) point out that a lot of charging locations (particularly Tesla superchargers) are near shopping malls and the like, where you might want to stop anyway to grab a bite to eat. As I've previously pointed out, however, that's not always a good thing. In my city, for instance, a Tesla supercharger is, in fact, next to a popular shopping mall, which is in a very busy location, so god help you if you decide to stop there to supercharge during one of the major holidays. Another supercharger is right off the highway, but is in an enormous multi-level parking deck. If you are not already familiar with the deck, getting in and out of it and finding the superchargers there wouldn't be particularly easy.

Then, there's concerns like this (see post #92): https://rennlist.com/forums/politics-an ... ing-7.html It's a Porsche Taycan thread, but the concerns expressed there are fairly universal. I'll quote the post:

"I have “public charger anxiety”.
Will the charger work?
Will there be a line?
If we’re waiting, is someone going to cut ahead of all of us waiting in line?
Will the chargers be blocked by a semi-truck? Did some rednecks decide to ICE the station?
Will the only working charger be occupied by a Chevy Bolt for 4+ hours, because they don’t understand idle fees and/or basic courtesy?
Am I going to get stuck on a slow 150kw charger (or less), because the Chevy Bolts took all of the 350kw chargers?
Will I be stuck waiting while someone insists on charging to 100% despite their car being at 99% for the past hour?
Can I trust the recent Plugshare reports and rating to be accurate?
Am I going to show up and find a charging site offline, because it’s not actually up yet and/or finally being upgraded?
This is the stuff that I worry about and have personally experienced — heck, all of the above during the past 5 days of road trips. Over 50k miles in to EV road tripping adventures, I plan around this stuff… obsessively. As a result, I’ve never been left walking, but I am always relieved to complete a successful stop without much hassle. It should also be noted that Tesla superchargers aren’t immune from the above."

The poster in question has been around for 4 years, has made 4,942 posts and is a well known and respected member of the forum.
I have a Model 3, I’ve road tripped it. You just plug in the destination and let the nav route you through superchargers. It just works.


The nav reports wait times if a supercharger is full, and will send you to another one if you have the range.


A lot of the anxiety in the Porsche forum is alleviated by the Supercharger network being vastly superior to electrify America.
Please take a closer look at the post to which you've responded, which addresses all of this.
Thanks, but I’m going to consider my actual first hand experience more valuable than a second hand copy and paste from a Porsche forum about range anxiety.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49364
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

lazydavid wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:53 am
mpnret wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 4:11 pm This looked real interesting until I pulled out Consumer Reports. Out of approximately 250 cars tested the Polestar 2 was second to last. Even the Mitsubishi Mirage beat it.
Lol, and if you try to dig into WHY it is rated so low, they give you this gem:
Consumer Reports wrote:No Detailed Data Available

For some model years, typically those of older or less popular cars, we do not have a large enough sample size to provide results of statistical confidence.
So they have no data and are not confident in the results, but are perfectly happy to publish them. CR is an even bigger sham than I thought.
I interpret that as a reasonable compromise. And no commercial outfit (that I know of) has anything like that level of transparency in their rating systems?
Valuethinker
Posts: 49364
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

aquaman wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 10:27 am
dsmclone wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:40 am I really don't get how anyone that enjoys driving would pick a Civic over a model Y. The technology, the one pedal driving experience, the exotic sports car acceleration, etc.
One of my best friends is on his second Model Y (the first one was totaled in an accident, to which the Model Y's technology very heavily contributed), so I am fairly familiar with it. The acceleration is fun, but from the overall driving dynamics perspective, plenty of people would pick a Civic over a model Y. That's not a fair comparison, of course, as the Civic is much closer to the ground, over 1K lbs lighter and can't store nearly as much as a model Y. In other words, when it comes to the overall driving experience, some of it is less about the ICE vs. EV debate and more about a small car vs. SUV issue.

The "technology" comments always make me smile. For a lot of EV buyers, the technology is one of the things that heavily attracts them to EV's in the first place. In fact, auto manufacturers seem to be targeting techy buyers with their EV models by adding lots of technology that has very little to do with the electric platform. What these techy buyers do not realize, and what seems so foreign to them, is how all this technology triggers the exact opposite reaction from a very significant segment of the population, who want to just drive rather than feel like they first have to take a tech course to relearn such basic things like how to operate wipers and how to fill up.
I agree there's an ergonomics battle out there. And yes, "Early Adopters" tend to like more techie things. I have friends who have to have the latest iphone.

If you've ever helped a 75 year old (not all!) struggle with their mobile phone, one can definitely see the generation gap. But under 30s now have grown up with portable technology, like technology.
All this technology is also one of the things that causes significant depreciation concerns, as all technology becomes stale fairly quickly. Sure, there are over the air updates, but just like with phone updates, they can only do so much.
With a phone, that's largely a hardware problem. The demands of the software grow faster than you can fit the required hardware into the phone. It's not even so much the chip, it's the packaging, battery etc. So on a car, that should be less of an issue.

We run the entire internet and a billion or so connection points (with phones, might be more than 2 billion) with "on air" updating. Consider every bit of software you are using right now. (And if you are not on the latest version of browsers, etc, you have security holes).

A more legitimate concern is that the maker will change its software - Windows 12 for cars? And leave say 10 year old car owners unable to get further upgrades. But I am certainly not running the latest version of Android on my Samsung (and yes, I should be - security again).

Some of the car makers (VW!) make nice EVs, but the software has been just dreadful. Tesla OTOH has been very good.
Consumer reports just said that the Model Y is one of the cheapest cars to maintain.
This excludes depreciation, which is one of the most important factors in total ownership costs.
That's a function of price cuts on new vehicles. EVs offer the opportunity for fundamentally cheaper cars - as battery production moves down that experience curve (apparently this is known as "Wright's Law" and we have seen it in solar and wind (and batteries): double your total installed base (globally) and cut production costs by 15-25%. And of course there are new battery technologies (Lithium Phosphate - which doesn't use very rare and expensive cobalt).

So EV prices fall - China has reached the $10k car - that reduces the residual value of older vehicles. Whereas US market will have less than 100 EV models next year, China has 500 and c 45% of all car sales this year. This is Schumpeterian competition at work - creative and destructive forces of capitalism - lots of new car companies, some from a tech/ mobile phone heritage. I don't expect to see a $10k Chinese car in North America, but a $20-25k one built in a transplant factory? Yes.
I have a dedicated computer running software that analyzes everything about the Tesla. We've now had this running almost a year and with 90+% of our charging done at home at .11c/kwh
Unfortunately, most people do not run these calculations correctly.

For instance, with gas, the price at the pump includes all taxes, and you can then subtract the 5% or so credit card cashback. With electricity, the price per kwh that people quote frequently does not include various taxes and surcharges, which can increase the overall price quite a bit. Likewise, with electricity, lots of people fail to factor in things like charging losses. Obviously, solar, deeply discounted time of day EV rates from the power companies, free charging at work, etc... can cut the other way as well.
[/quote]

It's your marginal cost of electricity, not your average cost per kwhr or your total cost. Those latter numbers include fixed charges. But since we all have household electricity supply, we all have to pay them -- it's only the cost of the additional kwhr we care about, and that's true for any appliance you might buy, not just an EV. Electricity billing is an arcane area - see the proceedings of any Public Utility Commission rate case. But broadly the right number is the incremental cost per kwhr - 11c / kwhr is a bit below the US average (about 13.5 cents/ kwhr last time I checked).

Interesting that there are American credit cards that pay 5% cashback. That's way way above anything available in the UK.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49364
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

just frank wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:56 pm
Not sure why I would get a 10k mile lease if I was going to drive it 15k miles? And take out the home charger and its <$200mo with your numbers between a Tesla and a 25 year old Grand Marquis. I'd reckon the former is a lot safer, and could justify the expenditure on that alone.

Maybe I was thinking about my 'paid off' Toyota 2003 Camry that guzzled gas and needed $1500-2000 in repairs every year for several years before I sold it for chump change. Much more expensive to operate than the 2017 Chevy Bolt I drove for 18 mos before it was totaled. After rebates and the insurance payout, that car cost me less than zero to own and operate for 18 mos.
Safety alone would tip me out of a 25 year old car.

When I travel on North American highways now I am terrified by the size and weight of the average passenger vehicle. Driving a sedan makes me feel quite vulnerable. I certainly wouldn't want an old car.

There are weird situations in the USA (poster JackFR has one example, from Boston suburbs) where the retail cost of electricity is so high that it would dissuade owning an EV on fuel economy grounds. But many of the posters here have the option of domestic solar PV.

The ability of EV owners to lease their battery capacity back to the grid will become a factor. That additional capacity - whether it shows up as new supply or simply "behind the meter" as negative demand, can be just so valuable in that 4pm-10pm period (low to 0 solar, high demand conditions).

Leasing is about technology change. Things are moving quite rapidly, and so having a 5-10 year old EV is more of an issue than it was owning a 10 year old Toyota Corolla, say.
B4Xt3r
Posts: 760
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:56 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by B4Xt3r »

PoorPlumber wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 6:06 pm ...
Finally, what's your time worth? Mine is everything to me. I actually timed my vehicle fill up recently. From getting out, putting the credit card in, pumping the fuel into a 1/8 full tank, and hanging the pump dispenser back up...2 minutes.
...
To me this is a selling point of EVs if you can charge at home. Charing at home takes ~30 seconds of time on task? It you have to fillup 750 times through life, you save 10-20 hrs if at home. That might "pay for" a few times you are away on a supercharger on a long trip, depending on your ratio of at home charging to road tripping.
lazydavid
Posts: 5350
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by lazydavid »

Valuethinker wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:55 am I interpret that as a reasonable compromise. And no commercial outfit (that I know of) has anything like that level of transparency in their rating systems?
But then relying on data that is known to be unreliable is....fraught at best. And true, if you dig down into the find print, you can indeed determine that the rating has no value. But if you just look at the overall rating list (as literally happened in this thread), you can confidently make an uninformed decision.

I'll grant that admitting when their data is worthless is indeed a step forward for CR, albeit a small one. 30 years ago, my parents bought a car based on a "much better than average" reliability rating from CR. Less than a year later, the rating was revised to "much worse than average" with a statement that basically said "Our previous recommendation was based on zero data, and now that we actually have data, it says the exact opposite of what we published. Sorry about that, we won't do it again." And now, here we are. :)

My experience also differs from yours. I've used several survey companies that refuse to provide me data about a particular topic/question if there were insufficient responses to meet the threshold for reliability. Instead, they tell me exactly that and move on to the next question. Even Amazon--who no one holds up on a pedestal for data integrity like many do for CR--makes it easy to tell at the very first glance that the 1- or 5-star review you see for a product was based on a rating from a single user.
aquaman
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

Valuethinker wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:10 am It's your marginal cost of electricity, not your average cost per kwhr or your total cost. Those latter numbers include fixed charges.
You're thinking of a situation where the utility charges an up front fixed charge and then there's just a usage based charge per kwh. That's not how a ton of utility companies in the US operate.

Instead, it is very common for a ton of utility companies to tack on various additional fees onto the usage based charges per kwh. In our case, for instance, the utility quotes a low charge per kwh, but then tacks on various additional charges onto the price per kwh, plus tax. So, overall, the marginal cost of electricity ends up being the quoted price per kwh plus another 35% or so. This is something that plenty of EV buyers, including a number of those who have posted in this thread, fail to account for in their calculations. Likewise, they also almost universally do not account for their charging losses.
hunoraut
Posts: 1842
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by hunoraut »

aquaman wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 9:06 pm
Please take a closer look at the post to which you've responded, which addresses all of this.
Your sampling Porsche quotes do not apply to the Tesla supercharger network. You have other people with actual experience telling you that. Some 80% of my cars mileage are long road trips and im telling you the same thing.

And if you dont have experience yourself, you have access to technology that tells you about what the experience will be in a Tesla.

Tell us the starting point and starting time and destination of your hypothetical trip and we will tell you how “far” the chargers are off the road, how many of them are available, how much they cost, how long you are expected to stay there, and all of the other of your hypothetical concerns.
aquaman
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

hunoraut wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:59 am Your sampling Porsche quotes do not apply to the Tesla supercharger network.
Not only does it apply to the Tesla supercharger network, but the post specifically addresses it. People are just so eager to reply that they fail to read the posts to which they're replying.

Once again, a gas station is typically on your way anyway (because there are so many of them everywhere) and is right off the highway, so getting to and from it only takes a minute or two. There are far fewer charging locations out there, so while the charging stop itself may "only" be 25 minutes, this ignores the fact that you may need to take a detour to get to and from the charging location.

Then, people frequently (and correctly) point out that a lot of charging locations (particularly Tesla superchargers) are near shopping malls and the like, where you might want to stop anyway to grab a bite to eat. As I've previously pointed out, however, that's not always a good thing. In my city, for instance, a Tesla supercharger is, in fact, next to a popular shopping mall, which is in a very busy location, so god help you if you decide to stop there to supercharge during one of the major holidays. Another supercharger is right off the highway, but is in an enormous multi-level parking deck. If you are not already familiar with the deck, getting in and out of it and finding the superchargers there wouldn't be particularly easy.

Hence, replies like the one that a poster above made where he said "You just plug in the destination and let the nav route you through superchargers. It just works." completely miss the issue.
Some 80% of my cars mileage are long road trips and im telling you the same thing.
I always enjoy reading your posts, which are intelligent and well written, but aren't you in Europe?
hunoraut
Posts: 1842
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by hunoraut »

aquaman wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 7:11 am
In my city, for instance, a Tesla supercharger is, in fact, next to a popular shopping mall, which is in a very busy location, so god help you if you decide to stop there to supercharge during one of the major holidays. Another supercharger is right off the highway, but is in an enormous multi-level parking deck. If you are not already familiar with the deck, getting in and out of it and finding the superchargers there wouldn't be particularly easy.
Superchargers were meant for distance travel, not local use. This means theyre typically close to the highway you’d already be traveling in, not nestled in the city. When you fuel on trips, you fuel where you need, which is often not in city center.

The navigation software also has allowance to convey additional information. Some Superchargers are in gated areas and the computer will instruct you that and the access codes. Other cars probably dont do this.
farkis
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Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:01 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by farkis »

nalor511 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:45 pm I would not hesitate to get anything proven (no super new platforms) from Toyota, Mazda, Honda (in that order). I hesitate with EVs, because they just aren't selling batteries at reasonable costs, and I don't want a throwaway car in 10 years (e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth, same for Chevy bolt I Believe). Gas or hybrid, until they make batteries cheaper and more easily replaced. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ca ... 824554938/
Batteries don't go totally dead, they degrade over time.
aquaman
Posts: 348
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

hunoraut wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 7:45 am Superchargers were meant for distance travel, not local use. This means theyre typically close to the highway you’d already be traveling in, not nestled in the city. When you fuel on trips, you fuel where you need, which is often not in city center.
There is still not enough of them to be reliably close to the highway you'd already be traveling on, at least in the US. It all depends on your route. It is exceptionally common to be forced to take a detour to get to one, not to mention the fact that because of their locations in popular, high traffic areas, getting in and out can take a while.

As I've explained above, this isn't a hypothetical scenario, as I've road tripped in my best friend's Model Y and have experienced this firsthand. Further, the discussion isn't just about Tesla, but about EV's in general. For folks who may be interested in an EV, but have no interest in Tesla (whether because of the quality control issues, the overall design, the CEO, etc...), these types of concerns are significantly excerbated.

The usual response to this is that most people do not take long trips often enough for this to be an issue, and that many of those who do have an ICE vehicle for roadtripping, or can rent one, etc... That's all true, but it works better for some people than it does for others. So, I don't think that it's fair to belittle these types of concerns, as EV buyers (and, in particular, the non-Tesla ones) would certainly have a very different public charging experience than they are accustomed to with an ICE vehicle.
mpnret
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by mpnret »

Valuethinker wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:55 am
lazydavid wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:53 am
mpnret wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 4:11 pm This looked real interesting until I pulled out Consumer Reports. Out of approximately 250 cars tested the Polestar 2 was second to last. Even the Mitsubishi Mirage beat it.
Lol, and if you try to dig into WHY it is rated so low, they give you this gem:
Consumer Reports wrote:No Detailed Data Available

For some model years, typically those of older or less popular cars, we do not have a large enough sample size to provide results of statistical confidence.
So they have no data and are not confident in the results, but are perfectly happy to publish them. CR is an even bigger sham than I thought.
I interpret that as a reasonable compromise. And no commercial outfit (that I know of) has anything like that level of transparency in their rating systems?
While Consumer Reports certainly isn't perfect, I still view it as one of the best sources out there. In regards to the Polestar 2, they clearly stated that they didn't have sufficient survey results for 2 categories reliability and owner satisfaction. Both were predicted and with the data they have they are probably in a better position to predict this than most. What I was more interested in is the full road test report they did. They stated things such as "extremely unintuitive controls—which garnered the lowest score we’ve ever given" and "ride is extremely stiff and choppy, causing occupants to be pitched about excessively".
Still an interesting car for the low lease price.
Pdxnative
Posts: 1019
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:17 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Pdxnative »

aquaman wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:22 am
hunoraut wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 7:45 am Superchargers were meant for distance travel, not local use. This means theyre typically close to the highway you’d already be traveling in, not nestled in the city. When you fuel on trips, you fuel where you need, which is often not in city center.
There is still not enough of them to be reliably close to the highway you'd already be traveling on, at least in the US. It all depends on your route. It is exceptionally common to be forced to take a detour to get to one, not to mention the fact that because of their locations in popular, high traffic areas, getting in and out can take a while.

As I've explained above, this isn't a hypothetical scenario, as I've road tripped in my best friend's Model Y and have experienced this firsthand. Further, the discussion isn't just about Tesla, but about EV's in general. For folks who may be interested in an EV, but have no interest in Tesla (whether because of the quality control issues, the overall design, the CEO, etc...), these types of concerns are significantly excerbated.

The usual response to this is that most people do not take long trips often enough for this to be an issue, and that many of those who do have an ICE vehicle for roadtripping, or can rent one, etc... That's all true, but it works better for some people than it does for others. So, I don't think that it's fair to belittle these types of concerns, as EV buyers (and, in particular, the non-Tesla ones) would certainly have a very different public charging experience than they are accustomed to with an ICE vehicle.
What you’re describing about charger locations hasn’t been true for me in any trips on the west coast, Northeast, Colorado, Illinois, etc. Maybe you live in North Dakota? Otherwise, chargers are usually easily accessible from freeways.

As for your Porsche anxiety-related quote. I’ve now seen that exact quote three times. I don’t frequent Porsche forums. So perhaps you’re posting it in multiple EV threads and I’ve seen it there? Or perhaps others have picked up on the same quote for some reason. Anyway, none of it rings true to me as an EV driver who travels a fair amount. Although, when I read it over and over I do start to wonder if I should feel anxiety despite all my experiences with charging being the opposite. Maybe that’s the point.

As has been pointed out, your claims are pretty easily falsifiable or verifiable if you want to pick a route and have people point out the freeway-adjacent charger locations. I’d suggest anyone concerned about this issue just choose a few routes. They’ll see pretty good access and locations in most regions.
nalor511
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by nalor511 »

farkis wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:12 am
nalor511 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:45 pm I would not hesitate to get anything proven (no super new platforms) from Toyota, Mazda, Honda (in that order). I hesitate with EVs, because they just aren't selling batteries at reasonable costs, and I don't want a throwaway car in 10 years (e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth, same for Chevy bolt I Believe). Gas or hybrid, until they make batteries cheaper and more easily replaced. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ca ... 824554938/
Batteries don't go totally dead, they degrade over time.
Many reports of 500e batteries being "totally dead" when the car is left un-driven for as short as 20-30 days. The batteries are good tech - the BMS can still kill them with self-discharge. The technology is not yet mature enough to make blanket statements.
aquaman
Posts: 348
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aquaman »

Pdxnative wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:11 pm What you’re describing about charger locations hasn’t been true for me in any trips on the west coast, Northeast, Colorado, Illinois, etc. Maybe you live in North Dakota? Otherwise, chargers are usually easily accessible from freeways.
One of the reasons that it is so difficult for a lot of people to move forward with an EV purchase is because there's so much misleading information on both sides. I get that it's the chicken or the egg, as some EV owners feel that there is so much political opposition to the technology and so much fearmongering (and both of these are true), that they feel the need to respond in kind. Unfortunately, their in-kind responses then further confuse the issues and make it that much more difficult for people to make a decision.

So, for instance, a statement that "chargers are usually easily accessible from freeways" has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue that I've highlighted above. Namely, unlike gas stations, which in the vast majority of the US are widely available and are typically in standalone locations right off the highway, such that no specific planning for a gas fill up are needed, and getting to and from it takes just a few minutes, it's not quite like that with electric chargers (or with superchargers).

You aren't actually trying to say that regardless of the route that you're taking, there will be an easily accessible supercharger along the way, right? Hence, you are presumably not actually disputing the fact that getting to a supercharger may require you to take a detour. Likewise, you are not actually arguing that getting to and from a supercharger located at a busy shopping center, which is one of the places where Tesla likes to place them (since it gives drivers something to do while their vehicles are charging), can mean getting through a fair amount of traffic. This would be very different than the experience of an ICE driver who gets off to fill up at a standalone gas station (which is how most of them are) and then immediately gets back on.

So, what exactly is the disagreement?
As for your Porsche anxiety-related quote. I’ve now seen that exact quote three times. I don’t frequent Porsche forums. So perhaps you’re posting it in multiple EV threads and I’ve seen it there?
I believe that this is the second time that I've posted it on BH, as it pertains to the same statements that come up with some regularity in various threads, and is from an easily verifiable source with real and extensive EV ownership and roadtripping experience.

In particular, it has become common on BH to respond to non EV owners with dismissive statements along the lines of "you don't own an EV and have no experience with this. Hence, your concerns essentially shouldn't count." This is the reason that I posted the exact quote above, as it's from a well respected EV owner and EV proponent with extensive posting history and experience. This type of post isn't unusual or unique either.
As has been pointed out, your claims are pretty easily falsifiable or verifiable if you want to pick a route and have people point out the freeway-adjacent charger locations. I’d suggest anyone concerned about this issue just choose a few routes. They’ll see pretty good access and locations in most regions.
This suggestion, I agree with. Note that as you start moving away from the largest cities in states like California, which is where EV ownership (and, therefore, infrastructure) is concentrated, you'll be seeing very large coverage holes and lots of routes without supercharger coverage along the way (you can still get to the superchargers, but with a detour). As you start looking at the states with far smaller EV ownership and smaller cities, these issues will become quite apparent.

I don't say any of the above to suggest that there is something wrong with EV's. As I've previously posted, in fact, there is a lot that I like about them, think that future is probably electric (or at least likely to involve alternative fuel rather than gasoline), have plenty of friends and colleagues who own them and for the most part like them, and will probably find myself buying one at some point in the not too distant future. All that I am saying is that people need to have factual information, and, just like with any other potential purchase out there, EV ownership has its pros and cons. Once people have information about both, they'll be able to make a decision that's right for them and their situations.
lazydavid
Posts: 5350
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by lazydavid »

aquaman wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:56 pm
Pdxnative wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:11 pm What you’re describing about charger locations hasn’t been true for me in any trips on the west coast, Northeast, Colorado, Illinois, etc. Maybe you live in North Dakota? Otherwise, chargers are usually easily accessible from freeways.
One of the reasons that it is so difficult for a lot of people to move forward with an EV purchase is because there's so much misleading information on both sides. I get that it's the chicken or the egg, as some EV owners feel that there is so much political opposition to the technology and so much fearmongering (and both of these are true), that they feel the need to respond in kind. Unfortunately, their in-kind responses then further confuse the issues and make it that much more difficult for people to make a decision.

So, for instance, a statement that "chargers are usually easily accessible from freeways" has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue that I've highlighted above. Namely, unlike gas stations, which in the vast majority of the US are widely available and are typically in standalone locations right off the highway, such that no specific planning for a gas fill up are needed, and getting to and from it takes just a few minutes, it's not quite like that with electric chargers (or with superchargers).

You aren't actually trying to say that regardless of the route that you're taking, there will be an easily accessible supercharger along the way, right? Hence, you are presumably not actually disputing the fact that getting to a supercharger may require you to take a detour. Likewise, you are not actually arguing that getting to and from a supercharger located at a busy shopping center, which is one of the places where Tesla likes to place them (since it gives drivers something to do while their vehicles are charging), can mean getting through a fair amount of traffic. This would be very different than the experience of an ICE driver who gets off to fill up at a standalone gas station (which is how most of them are) and then immediately gets back on.

So, what exactly is the disagreement?
I think what they were trying to get at is that while it is indeed route-dependent, their experience has not been that the chargers have been complex to get to and use on road trips they've been on. Which is why there was a request upthread for specific routes so this could be examined.

For grins, I just threw together a route from the western suburbs of Chicago to Austin in a MYLR, an 1,136 mile trip according to Google. I chose that because it crosses huge swaths of the central US, and doesn't go anywhere near California. ABRP maps this out with 7 charging stops. 5 of these are just past the first intersection that is reached upon exiting the expressway, just as a gas station would be. Only one is in a mall-type area, but it's at the edge, and along a main street that parallels the expressway so would not add very much time. The most-distant one requires about a half-mile of backtracking to get back on, but is in the parking lot of a highly-rated BBQ restaurant and is the longest planned stop (32 minutes) of the entire trip so it might work out nicely. 8-)

Most interestingly, three (so nearly half) of the supercharger locations are AT a gas station directly adjacent to that particular exit. Here is the route. I don't have (or have near-term plans to buy) an EV, but this seems more than reasonable to me.
teCh0010
Posts: 460
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by teCh0010 »

aquaman wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 2:56 pm
Pdxnative wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:11 pm What you’re describing about charger locations hasn’t been true for me in any trips on the west coast, Northeast, Colorado, Illinois, etc. Maybe you live in North Dakota? Otherwise, chargers are usually easily accessible from freeways.
One of the reasons that it is so difficult for a lot of people to move forward with an EV purchase is because there's so much misleading information on both sides. I get that it's the chicken or the egg, as some EV owners feel that there is so much political opposition to the technology and so much fearmongering (and both of these are true), that they feel the need to respond in kind. Unfortunately, their in-kind responses then further confuse the issues and make it that much more difficult for people to make a decision.

So, for instance, a statement that "chargers are usually easily accessible from freeways" has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue that I've highlighted above. Namely, unlike gas stations, which in the vast majority of the US are widely available and are typically in standalone locations right off the highway, such that no specific planning for a gas fill up are needed, and getting to and from it takes just a few minutes, it's not quite like that with electric chargers (or with superchargers).

You aren't actually trying to say that regardless of the route that you're taking, there will be an easily accessible supercharger along the way, right? Hence, you are presumably not actually disputing the fact that getting to a supercharger may require you to take a detour. Likewise, you are not actually arguing that getting to and from a supercharger located at a busy shopping center, which is one of the places where Tesla likes to place them (since it gives drivers something to do while their vehicles are charging), can mean getting through a fair amount of traffic. This would be very different than the experience of an ICE driver who gets off to fill up at a standalone gas station (which is how most of them are) and then immediately gets back on.

So, what exactly is the disagreement?
As for your Porsche anxiety-related quote. I’ve now seen that exact quote three times. I don’t frequent Porsche forums. So perhaps you’re posting it in multiple EV threads and I’ve seen it there?
I believe that this is the second time that I've posted it on BH, as it pertains to the same statements that come up with some regularity in various threads, and is from an easily verifiable source with real and extensive EV ownership and roadtripping experience.

In particular, it has become common on BH to respond to non EV owners with dismissive statements along the lines of "you don't own an EV and have no experience with this. Hence, your concerns essentially shouldn't count." This is the reason that I posted the exact quote above, as it's from a well respected EV owner and EV proponent with extensive posting history and experience. This type of post isn't unusual or unique either.
As has been pointed out, your claims are pretty easily falsifiable or verifiable if you want to pick a route and have people point out the freeway-adjacent charger locations. I’d suggest anyone concerned about this issue just choose a few routes. They’ll see pretty good access and locations in most regions.
This suggestion, I agree with. Note that as you start moving away from the largest cities in states like California, which is where EV ownership (and, therefore, infrastructure) is concentrated, you'll be seeing very large coverage holes and lots of routes without supercharger coverage along the way (you can still get to the superchargers, but with a detour). As you start looking at the states with far smaller EV ownership and smaller cities, these issues will become quite apparent.

I don't say any of the above to suggest that there is something wrong with EV's. As I've previously posted, in fact, there is a lot that I like about them, think that future is probably electric (or at least likely to involve alternative fuel rather than gasoline), have plenty of friends and colleagues who own them and for the most part like them, and will probably find myself buying one at some point in the not too distant future. All that I am saying is that people need to have factual information, and, just like with any other potential purchase out there, EV ownership has its pros and cons. Once people have information about both, they'll be able to make a decision that's right for them and their situations.
I live in TN. I’ve supercharged in TN, MS, AL, and AR. No issues. Right next to the interstate. The car nav just routed to me the supercharger location when it needed to charge, all I needed to do was put my final destination in.
TravellingTechOnFire
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:54 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

Another anecdote.

We've driven our Kia Niro EV ~24,000 miles. We would not buy it again due to range, charging speed, and the drastically inferior CCS charging network. Carvana is coming to pick it up next Tuesday.

We have a 2023 Model 3 long range that we have driven 23,000 miles. Lots of 3-12 hour road trips. Including our road trips, we have spent FAR less time "fueling" our EV than we would have spent fueling a gas car.

They ARE different....to expect to drive them exactly like an ICE car is absurd, and there is no reason to. Imagine if people wouldn't buy Ford's first cars because they couldn't stop literally anywhere in the entire country and let the car eat grass on the side of the road.(like the horses they replaced)

We leave our house for a trip with the car fully charged. Unlike a gas car, we would have to make a special trip to fill up before hand. Time saved.

We drive until we are ready to take a restroom break and/or coffee stop. We simply use the cars integrated navigation software to select the next charger that has restroom access and coffee. We stop, plug in, use the bathroom, get our coffee, get in the car and drive with 0 waiting. Faster than a gas car, which would require a couple minutes waiting at the pump to top off. The Tesla is faster. After this first restroom/coffee stop, we then drive several hours until we are ready to eat. We select a convenient charger with food nearby. 0 time spent fueling the car. We simply plug in, go eat, come back and drive. A gas car is slower..we would have to make a stop to fuel and possibly a separate stop to eat unless we want crappy gas station food. Either way, we have to stand there and pump fossil fuel. Again, the Tesla is faster.

We then drive several more hours if needed to reach our destination. We plug in to the destination charger with no waiting, no time spent at a gas station to top off. We wake up to a full car. Yet again, the Tesla is faster than an ICE car. And we didn't burn fossil fuel.

Almost all of our trips have been this easy.

If once in a while I have to wait 5 or 10 minutes to charge, I could not possibly care less. I would rather do this than continue burning fossil fuel for the next decade and lining the pockets of big oil. The anti-EV brigade blow this out of proportion, fueled by big oil's decade long media campaign to brainwash the public against EV's. They want every American to continue to spend many tens of thousands on gas over their driving lifetimes. This campaign has been very effective indeed.

EV's won't by loved by every person who ever drives one. But the overwhelming majority of EV owners, especially Tesla, will never buy a gas car again. They are just better in most cases despite infrastructure being in its infancy compared to fossil fuels.
PoorPlumber
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 13, 2024 5:22 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by PoorPlumber »

Many interesting thoughts and perspectives here.

Opinions on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

And this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4TaXAMAchQ
TravellingTechOnFire
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:54 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

PoorPlumber wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:21 pm Many interesting thoughts and perspectives here.

Opinions on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

And this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4TaXAMAchQ
Did you see all the news articles about the hundreds of ICE cars that wouldn't start in the unusually frigid cold snap that Chicago got?

Hint; the answer is no, even though this undoubtedly happened, and were certainly far more ICE car owners that woke up to ICE cars that wouldn't start.

Who stands to gain from souring people against EV's.......

Have you ever been to a Costco, where ICE car owners wait in long lines for a long time letting their cars run, burning fossil fuel, so they can save a $1 on fossil fuel?

The difference is, there is a huge anti EV media campaign that makes headlines. There is no huge anti-ICE car media campaign, but there easily could be, and it would look MUCH worse. Like the MANY hundreds of deaths every year in ICE car fires. Probably since they carry many gallons of highly flammable, explosive fuel in a flimsy container under the car. We will surely look back on this one day soon and realize how ridiculous such a thing is.
Gecko10x
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:10 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Gecko10x »

lazydavid wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:45 pm
I think what they were trying to get at is that while it is indeed route-dependent, their experience has not been that the chargers have been complex to get to and use on road trips they've been on. Which is why there was a request upthread for specific routes so this could be examined.

For grins, I just threw together a route from the western suburbs of Chicago to Austin in a MYLR, an 1,136 mile trip according to Google. I chose that because it crosses huge swaths of the central US, and doesn't go anywhere near California. ABRP maps this out with 7 charging stops. 5 of these are just past the first intersection that is reached upon exiting the expressway, just as a gas station would be. Only one is in a mall-type area, but it's at the edge, and along a main street that parallels the expressway so would not add very much time. The most-distant one requires about a half-mile of backtracking to get back on, but is in the parking lot of a highly-rated BBQ restaurant and is the longest planned stop (32 minutes) of the entire trip so it might work out nicely. 8-)

Most interestingly, three (so nearly half) of the supercharger locations are AT a gas station directly adjacent to that particular exit. Here is the route. I don't have (or have near-term plans to buy) an EV, but this seems more than reasonable to me.
Unfortunately your route link doesn't work, at least for me with an existing ABRP account.

As a 5+ year Tesla owner with several multi-thousand mile trips across the central US, my experience agrees with you both :)
It is highly route-dependent if it'll be smooth-sailing and convenient or involve several mildly inconvenient charging stations. Some toll roads out East have tesla chargers right in the expressway plazas, and there are other routes that can be quite inconvenient. (One in particular that we always used to hit in Grove City, OH is a good 10 minutes off 370, but it always seemed preferable to me over driving straight through the heart of Columbus) And I wouldn't recommend driving through the mid-west overnight; there are quite a few chargers located nowhere near an available restroom!
PoorPlumber
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 13, 2024 5:22 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by PoorPlumber »

And for those with battery longevity concerns...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOFfKQ7SxEg
PoorPlumber
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 13, 2024 5:22 pm

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by PoorPlumber »

TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:31 pm
PoorPlumber wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:21 pm Many interesting thoughts and perspectives here.

Opinions on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

And this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4TaXAMAchQ
Did you see all the news articles about the hundreds of ICE cars that wouldn't start in the unusually frigid cold snap that Chicago got?

Hint; the answer is no, even though this undoubtedly happened, and were certainly far more ICE car owners that woke up to ICE cars that wouldn't start.

Who stands to gain from souring people against EV's.......

Have you ever been to a Costco, where ICE car owners wait in long lines for a long time letting their cars run, burning fossil fuel, so they can save a $1 on fossil fuel?

The difference is, there is a huge anti EV media campaign that makes headlines. There is no huge anti-ICE car media campaign, but there easily could be, and it would look MUCH worse. Like the MANY hundreds of deaths every year in ICE car fires. Probably since they carry many gallons of highly flammable, explosive fuel in a flimsy container under the car. We will surely look back on this one day soon and realize how ridiculous such a thing is.
I haven't seen all the news articles about the hundreds of ICE cars that wouldn't start. I'd be glad to look at some though. And one of my best friends works at a television station so if it were a big problem, which I'm not saying it wasn't, there is a high likelihood it would be televised. I just haven't seen it but please link articles and video if you like.

I don't go to Costco. I have been to Sheetz, TA Travel Plazas, 7 Elevens, BP's, etc. As well as many independent gas stations. I have NEVER seen long lines for a long time letting their cars run, burning fossil fuel, so they can save whatever on fossil fuel. Could be a regular thing at Costco though. I'm just ignorant to their everyday operations.

I don't think there is a huge anti-EV campaign. I do think there is an anti-misinformation campaign maybe and people have egotistically chosen sides rather than accept facts, crunched numbers, and lacking understanding that one format is not necessarily "right" for everyone. You are not necessarily smarter and making a "better" decision than someone needing or wanting an ICE vehicle. And, in turn, they are not smarter than you nor are they necessarily making a "better" decision.

Different wants, different goals, different needs....different people! :D


I can agree that I don't recall seeing or getting the feeling of a huge anti-ICE car media campaign. You state there are "MANY hundreds of deaths every year in ICE car fires." Any deaths that can be prevented should be.
But what is the percentage of deaths, damages, and total losses of ICE vs. EV? That would seem to be a more valid argument.

Example: If there are 1 million EV's on the road and 50 million ICE vehicles, saying there are more ICE fires and deaths doesn't prove that percentage wise an ICE vehicle is inherently more dangerous and one likely to die in a fire from an accident or other means.

And EV's also have their issues as I'm sure anyone knows regarding fires. If a certain type of short circuit, grounding, or whatever situation occurs it's not uncommon for an EV Lithium battery to go almost full on China Syndrome & cannot be extinguished. Not to mention the toxicity of the burn.

And as far as ICE burning fossil fuel...does EV not?
TravellingTechOnFire
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:54 am

Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

PoorPlumber wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:21 pm
TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:31 pm
PoorPlumber wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:21 pm Many interesting thoughts and perspectives here.

Opinions on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

And this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4TaXAMAchQ
Did you see all the news articles about the hundreds of ICE cars that wouldn't start in the unusually frigid cold snap that Chicago got?

Hint; the answer is no, even though this undoubtedly happened, and were certainly far more ICE car owners that woke up to ICE cars that wouldn't start.

Who stands to gain from souring people against EV's.......

Have you ever been to a Costco, where ICE car owners wait in long lines for a long time letting their cars run, burning fossil fuel, so they can save a $1 on fossil fuel?

The difference is, there is a huge anti EV media campaign that makes headlines. There is no huge anti-ICE car media campaign, but there easily could be, and it would look MUCH worse. Like the MANY hundreds of deaths every year in ICE car fires. Probably since they carry many gallons of highly flammable, explosive fuel in a flimsy container under the car. We will surely look back on this one day soon and realize how ridiculous such a thing is.
I haven't seen all the news articles about the hundreds of ICE cars that wouldn't start. I'd be glad to look at some though. And one of my best friends works at a television station so if it were a big problem, which I'm not saying it wasn't, there is a high likelihood it would be televised. I just haven't seen it but please link articles and video if you like.

I don't go to Costco. I have been to Sheetz, TA Travel Plazas, 7 Elevens, BP's, etc. As well as many independent gas stations. I have NEVER seen long lines for a long time letting their cars run, burning fossil fuel, so they can save whatever on fossil fuel. Could be a regular thing at Costco though. I'm just ignorant to their everyday operations.

I don't think there is a huge anti-EV campaign. I do think there is an anti-misinformation campaign maybe and people have egotistically chosen sides rather than accept facts, crunched numbers, and lacking understanding that one format is not necessarily "right" for everyone. You are not necessarily smarter and making a "better" decision than someone needing or wanting an ICE vehicle. And, in turn, they are not smarter than you nor are they necessarily making a "better" decision.

Different wants, different goals, different needs....different people! :D


I can agree that I don't recall seeing or getting the feeling of a huge anti-ICE car media campaign. You state there are "MANY hundreds of deaths every year in ICE car fires." Any deaths that can be prevented should be.
But what is the percentage of deaths, damages, and total losses of ICE vs. EV? That would seem to be a more valid argument.

Example: If there are 1 million EV's on the road and 50 million ICE vehicles, saying there are more ICE fires and deaths doesn't prove that percentage wise an ICE vehicle is inherently more dangerous and one likely to die in a fire from an accident or other means.

And EV's also have their issues as I'm sure anyone knows regarding fires. If a certain type of short circuit, grounding, or whatever situation occurs it's not uncommon for an EV Lithium battery to go almost full on China Syndrome & cannot be extinguished. Not to mention the toxicity of the burn.

And as far as ICE burning fossil fuel...does EV not?
My post was partly tongue in cheek so that you would stop to think for a moment why you see news articles and videos spread so prevalently against EV's. We don't have to see news headlines to know that there were lots of ICE cars that wouldn't start in -20 degree weather due to batteries with reduced cranking power and ICE engines that are inherently harder to start in extreme cold weather. There were undoubtedly many many more dead ICE cars than the handful of EV's that had charging issues that day. It's just that there were no news article about ICE cars because there is no agenda.

It seems clear to me that you have been convinced about how bad EV's are.....your first thought, due to the bias that has been instilled into you by a decade of FUD, is that, surely, EV cars catch fire at a much higher percentage....their aren't a lot of EV fires only because there aren't many EV's yet. Of course you would think this.....it's the message. The truth is that ICE cars catch fire at a much higher *percentage* than EV's. If an EV catches fires, it's a huge news article, despite happening at MUCH lower percentage than ICE cars. AFAIK, I'm not sure if there were ANY(or at least very few?) deaths due to EV fires...there are several hundred ICE car deaths every year due to fires. Could you imagine if there were even one, or five, or ten deaths due to EV fires? The news articles would be out of control. When was the last time you saw a news headline about an EV fire that stated how much more likely it is for an ICE car to catch fire, or that there are many hundreds of deaths every year due to these fires? You haven't seen it because it doesn't fit the narrative or the agenda.

Just to be clear, I'm not upset here; I welcome the dialogue, and I think its an important one to have.

If you don't think there has been, and still is, a huge anti-media campaign being waged against EV's, then you are simply in the echo chamber of your choosing.

EV's aren't perfect, and they certainly aren't for everyone at this point. The transition will take some time. For those that don't want to own one yet, no one really cares. Keep buying gas and no one is mad at you. But it seems as though ICE vehicle die hards can't help themselves from trying to spread as much FUD as possible in every thread that pops up with the mention of an EV. Such as dropping into a thread only to post links that continue to spread the media campaign against EV's. Maybe that wasn't even your intention. But whoever is ultimately responsible for the incredibly biased media coverage has done a great job of recruiting minions to do their job for them, it would seem.

You make a valid point that EV fires can be more difficult to extinguish. It's a good thing that they are drastically less common than ICE car fires from a percentage standpoint. AFAIK, there have been big improvements in the safety and reduction of fire risk in EV's over the brief ten years of so that the technology has been emerging.

As far as EV's burning fossil fuels....this is yet another big oil/news media FUD talking point.....yep, being spread. It's a small kernel of truth twisted into a big lie that is accepted as truth by those whose beliefs have been.....manipulated by those with an agenda($$$$$).

First, the majority of electricity produced in the USA is with relatively clean fuel sources such as renewables or natural gas. There is still a lot of natural gas but drastically reduced coal. Clean renewables are increasing dramatically and will eventually make up the majority, and perhaps someday, all electricity generation. Despite this, an EV, even when powered by coal fueled electricity, is drastically cleaner than an ICE car due to the efficiency of energy generation.

Many EV's are also fully powered by solar generation. 100% clean, renewable energy.

The main mission of the CEO of the largest EV manufacturer in the world is to transition the world to 100% clean, renewable energy i.e. wind and solar along with grid level battery storage. His agenda is literally to help save the planet and stop burning fossil fuel. However, this puts big oil and gas out of business. Literally. If you think they won't go down swinging, you aren't paying attention.

Here's an article from MotorTrend titled:

You’re Wrong About EV Fires
Gas- and diesel-powered vehicles catch fire way more often than EVs, but you wouldn’t know that from the headlines.


https://www.motortrend.com/features/you ... -ev-fires/
cmr79
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by cmr79 »

PoorPlumber wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:21 pm I don't think there is a huge anti-EV campaign.
Really? If you were an oil company, or a car company that hadn't invested adequately in EV technology, what possible financial incentives would you have to NOT finance an anti-EV campaign? That would be like suggesting that tobacco companies didn't have an incentive to suppress dissemination of the negative health effects of smoking.
PoorPlumber
Posts: 45
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by PoorPlumber »

TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 7:33 pm
PoorPlumber wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:21 pm
TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:31 pm
PoorPlumber wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:21 pm Many interesting thoughts and perspectives here.

Opinions on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

And this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4TaXAMAchQ
Did you see all the news articles about the hundreds of ICE cars that wouldn't start in the unusually frigid cold snap that Chicago got?

Hint; the answer is no, even though this undoubtedly happened, and were certainly far more ICE car owners that woke up to ICE cars that wouldn't start.

Who stands to gain from souring people against EV's.......

Have you ever been to a Costco, where ICE car owners wait in long lines for a long time letting their cars run, burning fossil fuel, so they can save a $1 on fossil fuel?

The difference is, there is a huge anti EV media campaign that makes headlines. There is no huge anti-ICE car media campaign, but there easily could be, and it would look MUCH worse. Like the MANY hundreds of deaths every year in ICE car fires. Probably since they carry many gallons of highly flammable, explosive fuel in a flimsy container under the car. We will surely look back on this one day soon and realize how ridiculous such a thing is.
I haven't seen all the news articles about the hundreds of ICE cars that wouldn't start. I'd be glad to look at some though. And one of my best friends works at a television station so if it were a big problem, which I'm not saying it wasn't, there is a high likelihood it would be televised. I just haven't seen it but please link articles and video if you like.

I don't go to Costco. I have been to Sheetz, TA Travel Plazas, 7 Elevens, BP's, etc. As well as many independent gas stations. I have NEVER seen long lines for a long time letting their cars run, burning fossil fuel, so they can save whatever on fossil fuel. Could be a regular thing at Costco though. I'm just ignorant to their everyday operations.

I don't think there is a huge anti-EV campaign. I do think there is an anti-misinformation campaign maybe and people have egotistically chosen sides rather than accept facts, crunched numbers, and lacking understanding that one format is not necessarily "right" for everyone. You are not necessarily smarter and making a "better" decision than someone needing or wanting an ICE vehicle. And, in turn, they are not smarter than you nor are they necessarily making a "better" decision.

Different wants, different goals, different needs....different people! :D


I can agree that I don't recall seeing or getting the feeling of a huge anti-ICE car media campaign. You state there are "MANY hundreds of deaths every year in ICE car fires." Any deaths that can be prevented should be.
But what is the percentage of deaths, damages, and total losses of ICE vs. EV? That would seem to be a more valid argument.

Example: If there are 1 million EV's on the road and 50 million ICE vehicles, saying there are more ICE fires and deaths doesn't prove that percentage wise an ICE vehicle is inherently more dangerous and one likely to die in a fire from an accident or other means.

And EV's also have their issues as I'm sure anyone knows regarding fires. If a certain type of short circuit, grounding, or whatever situation occurs it's not uncommon for an EV Lithium battery to go almost full on China Syndrome & cannot be extinguished. Not to mention the toxicity of the burn.

And as far as ICE burning fossil fuel...does EV not?
My post was partly tongue in cheek so that you would stop to think for a moment why you see news articles and videos spread so prevalently against EV's. We don't have to see news headlines to know that there were lots of ICE cars that wouldn't start in -20 degree weather due to batteries with reduced cranking power and ICE engines that are inherently harder to start in extreme cold weather. There were undoubtedly many many more dead ICE cars than the handful of EV's that had charging issues that day. It's just that there were no news article about ICE cars because there is no agenda.

It seems clear to me that you have been convinced about how bad EV's are.....your first thought, due to the bias that has been instilled into you by a decade of FUD, is that, surely, EV cars catch fire at a much higher percentage....their aren't a lot of EV fires only because there aren't many EV's yet. Of course you would think this.....it's the message. The truth is that ICE cars catch fire at a much higher *percentage* than EV's. If an EV catches fires, it's a huge news article, despite happening at MUCH lower percentage than ICE cars. AFAIK, I'm not sure if there were ANY(or at least very few?) deaths due to EV fires...there are several hundred ICE car deaths every year due to fires. Could you imagine if there were even one, or five, or ten deaths due to EV fires? The news articles would be out of control. When was the last time you saw a news headline about an EV fire that stated how much more likely it is for an ICE car to catch fire, or that there are many hundreds of deaths every year due to these fires? You haven't seen it because it doesn't fit the narrative or the agenda.

Just to be clear, I'm not upset here; I welcome the dialogue, and I think its an important one to have.

If you don't think there has been, and still is, a huge anti-media campaign being waged against EV's, then you are simply in the echo chamber of your choosing.

EV's aren't perfect, and they certainly aren't for everyone at this point. The transition will take some time. For those that don't want to own one yet, no one really cares. Keep buying gas and no one is mad at you. But it seems as though ICE vehicle die hards can't help themselves from trying to spread as much FUD as possible in every thread that pops up with the mention of an EV. Such as dropping into a thread only to post links that continue to spread the media campaign against EV's. Maybe that wasn't even your intention. But whoever is ultimately responsible for the incredibly biased media coverage has done a great job of recruiting minions to do their job for them, it would seem.

You make a valid point that EV fires can be more difficult to extinguish. It's a good thing that they are drastically less common than ICE car fires from a percentage standpoint. AFAIK, there have been big improvements in the safety and reduction of fire risk in EV's over the brief ten years of so that the technology has been emerging.

As far as EV's burning fossil fuels....this is yet another big oil/news media FUD talking point.....yep, being spread. It's a small kernel of truth twisted into a big lie that is accepted as truth by those whose beliefs have been.....manipulated by those with an agenda($$$$$).

First, the majority of electricity produced in the USA is with relatively clean fuel sources such as renewables or natural gas. There is still a lot of natural gas but drastically reduced coal. Clean renewables are increasing dramatically and will eventually make up the majority, and perhaps someday, all electricity generation. Despite this, an EV, even when powered by coal fueled electricity, is drastically cleaner than an ICE car due to the efficiency of energy generation.

Many EV's are also fully powered by solar generation. 100% clean, renewable energy.

The main mission of the CEO of the largest EV manufacturer in the world is to transition the world to 100% clean, renewable energy i.e. wind and solar along with grid level battery storage. His agenda is literally to help save the planet and stop burning fossil fuel. However, this puts big oil and gas out of business. Literally. If you think they won't go down swinging, you aren't paying attention.

Here's an article from MotorTrend titled:

You’re Wrong About EV Fires
Gas- and diesel-powered vehicles catch fire way more often than EVs, but you wouldn’t know that from the headlines.


https://www.motortrend.com/features/you ... -ev-fires/
Well...I can understand some of your positions. However, you seem to often touch in an area that's conspiracy or at least "Correlation is not Causation".
And your conclusions about my positions on this is also off. A person not recognizing an alleged "anti-EV" campaign in no way is an indication of being in an echo chamber of their own choosing. That borders on a passive aggressive insult. But I'll look past it. And I'm open to reading or watching anything to gather information and conclude there might be.

No coverage of ICE vehicles in the cold weather having issues does not in itself indicate an agenda by anyone. Could just be less problems by percentage. Showing a group of EV's in public with significant issues at their factory fuel supplier IS newsworthy in and of itself without any supposed backing or agenda. If only to educate consumers of something that could happen they haven't thought about so they can plan in the future for these conditions.

Another of your assessments is incorrect. I don't think I've ever stated that EV's are "bad" nor am I convinced of that. I don't think that. A critical analysis of something is not an all-encompassing conclusion on it.

And there is no "bias instilled" in me any more than you. That's also incorrect.

What I do KNOW is that they are not currently the answer for a lot of people. I can envision a future where they will be though.

As far as fires and death percentages- I'm clueless as to which has less or if it's negligible. We'd probably need an insurance actuary to conclude that. Saying one is better than the other without that accurate information, is wrong for either type of vehicle.

And "dropping into a thread only to post links that continue to spread the media campaign against EV's"? Did you look at ALL the links I posted? I also posted a link with a story of an owner that drove his Tesla almost 500,000 miles before battery issues to give some assurance to those with battery longevity fears. Watch that one?

You do make a reasonable point about energy use. I hadn't looked into the energy generation in the US and methods in quite sometime. Coal is only at 16%. How much of that is EV and it's comparison Carbon impact per mile vs. ICE per mile, I also don't know.

I read the Motor Trend article. Again, a skewing of statistics either unconsciously or purposely achieving information that is not reasonably accurate.

Ever heard of P-Hacking?
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