Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

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TravellingTechOnFire
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:58 am One thing that concerns me regarding both hybrids and EVs are spontaneous lithium Ion battery fires. There are a number of YT videos on these instances, some fires on the road, others in a garage, even one video of a cargo ship entire load of vehicles catching on fire. Due to my work experience in the renewable energy field developing utility scale energy storage facilities, I have a strong sense of caution at the moment.

Choose wisely. :D
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/report-evs ... ine%20cars.”

We’re not aware of any conflicts of interest, however, for the Australian defense establishment or Scandinavian governments. They back up the claim.

In Norway, the research found, “there are between four and five times more fires in petrol and diesel cars, according to the Directorate for Social Security and Emergency Preparedness.” The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency similarly found 68 fires per 100,000 cars of all types but just 3.8 fires per 100,000 EVs or hybrids.

Australia’s Department of Defence researched the same question and found that “there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal combustion engine cars.”


What's that come out to, gas cars are 20-100 times more likely to catch fire than EV's?

Would also be very easy to link 100's of YouTube videos showing ICE car fires and explosions, since they carry around a huge tank of highly flammable, explosive liquid fuel, but I'm not trying to spread any FUD, so that would be pointless. I prefer facts and statistics. ICE cars are drastically more likely to catch fire and cause hundreds of deaths every year in the US.
aspiring_kiwi
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by aspiring_kiwi »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:36 pm I'd still like to hear from someone's who driven a hybrid (or electric car) somewhere you want braking (say, Pikes Peak in CO, or Mt. Washington in NH), where with an ICE car you can normally get by almost without using any brakes at all if you're determined to.
Coincidentally, I'd just rented a toyota corolla cross hybrid SUV last week while overseas. Going down a small mountain, it started with normal braking as it simply charged the battery. It was obvious when the battery was full because the engine jumped to a high/loud RPM (maybe 3500 RPM?) and had clearly substituted in some engine braking. As the road got steeper, I downshifted to "B" and then the engine got even louder and sounded like it was running maybe 4000-5000 RPM, with noticeably stronger braking. This wasn't enough to maintain 30MPH, but I only needed intermittent light braking to keep the speed under control. (The road was very curvy, and the posted limit was basically 30MPH in this section).

It seemed perfectly fine coming down the mountain. At the end of the trip, I was shocked at how little fuel this car used. On a road trip from sea level to a mountain pass at 3000 ft and back, it returned 51 MPG (4.6 liters per 100 km)
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just frank
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by just frank »

aspiring_kiwi wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 12:46 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:36 pm I'd still like to hear from someone's who driven a hybrid (or electric car) somewhere you want braking (say, Pikes Peak in CO, or Mt. Washington in NH), where with an ICE car you can normally get by almost without using any brakes at all if you're determined to.
Coincidentally, I'd just rented a toyota corolla cross hybrid SUV last week while overseas. Going down a small mountain, it started with normal braking as it simply charged the battery. It was obvious when the battery was full because the engine jumped to a high/loud RPM (maybe 3500 RPM?) and had clearly substituted in some engine braking. As the road got steeper, I downshifted to "B" and then the engine got even louder and sounded like it was running maybe 4000-5000 RPM, with noticeably stronger braking. This wasn't enough to maintain 30MPH, but I only needed intermittent light braking to keep the speed under control. (The road was very curvy, and the posted limit was basically 30MPH in this section).

It seemed perfectly fine coming down the mountain. At the end of the trip, I was shocked at how little fuel this car used. On a road trip from sea level to a mountain pass at 3000 ft and back, it returned 51 MPG (4.6 liters per 100 km)
Makes sense. EV drivers usually figure that 1000' elevation change requires about 2 kWh of charge uphill, or nets 1.5 kWh in regen going downhill.

Since the Camry hybrid battery is now 1 kWh, it would fill up after going no more than 600' downhill.
YeahBuddy
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by YeahBuddy »

BogleAlltheWay wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:10 am
H-Town wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:01 am
BogleAlltheWay wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:24 am All,

I am debating between buying a 2024 Camry or the Hybrid version.
Also, should I pay it in full or get an auto loan?
Wait for a couple of months and you'll get 2025 Camry. There's no ICE vs. Hybrid debate at that point.
Why is there no debate?

3 pages a 103 responses later, apparently there is some debate.
Also I've seen some hunting 2024 Camrys for the last v6 made. It's faster. The hybrid is about 0.5 - 1 sec slower 0-60 but has great mpg numbers.
My local Toyota is offering 4.75% which is a point below local credit unions.

OP, have you made a decision yet?
Light weight baby!
tibbitts
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by tibbitts »

aspiring_kiwi wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 12:46 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:36 pm I'd still like to hear from someone's who driven a hybrid (or electric car) somewhere you want braking (say, Pikes Peak in CO, or Mt. Washington in NH), where with an ICE car you can normally get by almost without using any brakes at all if you're determined to.
Coincidentally, I'd just rented a toyota corolla cross hybrid SUV last week while overseas. Going down a small mountain, it started with normal braking as it simply charged the battery. It was obvious when the battery was full because the engine jumped to a high/loud RPM (maybe 3500 RPM?) and had clearly substituted in some engine braking. As the road got steeper, I downshifted to "B" and then the engine got even louder and sounded like it was running maybe 4000-5000 RPM, with noticeably stronger braking. This wasn't enough to maintain 30MPH, but I only needed intermittent light braking to keep the speed under control. (The road was very curvy, and the posted limit was basically 30MPH in this section).

It seemed perfectly fine coming down the mountain. At the end of the trip, I was shocked at how little fuel this car used. On a road trip from sea level to a mountain pass at 3000 ft and back, it returned 51 MPG (4.6 liters per 100 km)
Interesting. Now I'm curious about this "B" setting; I didn't notice it in my Toyota hybrid rental, just the usual 1, 2, 3, etc. (plus D of course.) But I didn't read most of the 428-page "abbreviated" paper manual during my time with the car either.
ondarvr
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by ondarvr »

tibbitts wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 7:18 am
aspiring_kiwi wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 12:46 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:36 pm I'd still like to hear from someone's who driven a hybrid (or electric car) somewhere you want braking (say, Pikes Peak in CO, or Mt. Washington in NH), where with an ICE car you can normally get by almost without using any brakes at all if you're determined to.
Coincidentally, I'd just rented a toyota corolla cross hybrid SUV last week while overseas. Going down a small mountain, it started with normal braking as it simply charged the battery. It was obvious when the battery was full because the engine jumped to a high/loud RPM (maybe 3500 RPM?) and had clearly substituted in some engine braking. As the road got steeper, I downshifted to "B" and then the engine got even louder and sounded like it was running maybe 4000-5000 RPM, with noticeably stronger braking. This wasn't enough to maintain 30MPH, but I only needed intermittent light braking to keep the speed under control. (The road was very curvy, and the posted limit was basically 30MPH in this section).

It seemed perfectly fine coming down the mountain. At the end of the trip, I was shocked at how little fuel this car used. On a road trip from sea level to a mountain pass at 3000 ft and back, it returned 51 MPG (4.6 liters per 100 km)
Interesting. Now I'm curious about this "B" setting; I didn't notice it in my Toyota hybrid rental, just the usual 1, 2, 3, etc. (plus D of course.) But I didn't read most of the 428-page "abbreviated" paper manual during my time with the car either.
On some hybrids if you scroll through the menus you'll find options to enhance the charging and regenerative braking rates. It gives a slightly different driving experience, sometimes any time you let off the gas it will start charging at a higher rate, so there's more drag and less coasting. Some drivers can't stand any change from the sensations they grew up with driving for decades prior to hybrids and CVTs. So they add options to trick you into thinking you're driving old technology, like fake shift points, sound tracks played on the radio of engine noises, and altered charging rates.
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telemark
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by telemark »

aspiring_kiwi wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 12:46 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:36 pm I'd still like to hear from someone's who driven a hybrid (or electric car) somewhere you want braking (say, Pikes Peak in CO, or Mt. Washington in NH), where with an ICE car you can normally get by almost without using any brakes at all if you're determined to.
Coincidentally, I'd just rented a toyota corolla cross hybrid SUV last week while overseas. Going down a small mountain, it started with normal braking as it simply charged the battery. It was obvious when the battery was full because the engine jumped to a high/loud RPM (maybe 3500 RPM?) and had clearly substituted in some engine braking. As the road got steeper, I downshifted to "B" and then the engine got even louder and sounded like it was running maybe 4000-5000 RPM, with noticeably stronger braking. This wasn't enough to maintain 30MPH, but I only needed intermittent light braking to keep the speed under control. (The road was very curvy, and the posted limit was basically 30MPH in this section).

It seemed perfectly fine coming down the mountain. At the end of the trip, I was shocked at how little fuel this car used. On a road trip from sea level to a mountain pass at 3000 ft and back, it returned 51 MPG (4.6 liters per 100 km)
A few additional comments, based on my experience with an older Gen 3 Prius. Normally the hybrid system won't charge the battery past 80%, but extended downhill braking will take it to 100%. Past that, when you are in B mode the system will use MG1 to spin the engine when you apply the brake pedal: this uses some power and allows for more regen braking. The first time I heard the engine race I thought something was wrong and pulled over, but it's completely normal and seems to work well. It will also do this outside of B mode if cruise control is on, but this doesn't work well for twisty descents where you need to brake for the curves. You can also eke out a little more regen braking by running the air conditioner and the headlights.
Paullmas
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Paullmas »

TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:45 pm
Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:58 am One thing that concerns me regarding both hybrids and EVs are spontaneous lithium Ion battery fires. There are a number of YT videos on these instances, some fires on the road, others in a garage, even one video of a cargo ship entire load of vehicles catching on fire. Due to my work experience in the renewable energy field developing utility scale energy storage facilities, I have a strong sense of caution at the moment.

Choose wisely. :D
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/report-evs ... ine%20cars.”

We’re not aware of any conflicts of interest, however, for the Australian defense establishment or Scandinavian governments. They back up the claim.

In Norway, the research found, “there are between four and five times more fires in petrol and diesel cars, according to the Directorate for Social Security and Emergency Preparedness.” The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency similarly found 68 fires per 100,000 cars of all types but just 3.8 fires per 100,000 EVs or hybrids.

Australia’s Department of Defence researched the same question and found that “there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal combustion engine cars.”


What's that come out to, gas cars are 20-100 times more likely to catch fire than EV's?

Would also be very easy to link 100's of YouTube videos showing ICE car fires and explosions, since they carry around a huge tank of highly flammable, explosive liquid fuel, but I'm not trying to spread any FUD, so that would be pointless. I prefer facts and statistics. ICE cars are drastically more likely to catch fire and cause hundreds of deaths every year in the US.
Yeah statistics...was the age of the vehicles factored into these studies?
Just say no to international.
TravellingTechOnFire
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

Paullmas wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 6:00 am
TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:45 pm
Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:58 am One thing that concerns me regarding both hybrids and EVs are spontaneous lithium Ion battery fires. There are a number of YT videos on these instances, some fires on the road, others in a garage, even one video of a cargo ship entire load of vehicles catching on fire. Due to my work experience in the renewable energy field developing utility scale energy storage facilities, I have a strong sense of caution at the moment.

Choose wisely. :D
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/report-evs ... ine%20cars.”

We’re not aware of any conflicts of interest, however, for the Australian defense establishment or Scandinavian governments. They back up the claim.

In Norway, the research found, “there are between four and five times more fires in petrol and diesel cars, according to the Directorate for Social Security and Emergency Preparedness.” The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency similarly found 68 fires per 100,000 cars of all types but just 3.8 fires per 100,000 EVs or hybrids.

Australia’s Department of Defence researched the same question and found that “there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal combustion engine cars.”


What's that come out to, gas cars are 20-100 times more likely to catch fire than EV's?

Would also be very easy to link 100's of YouTube videos showing ICE car fires and explosions, since they carry around a huge tank of highly flammable, explosive liquid fuel, but I'm not trying to spread any FUD, so that would be pointless. I prefer facts and statistics. ICE cars are drastically more likely to catch fire and cause hundreds of deaths every year in the US.
Yeah statistics...was the age of the vehicles factored into these studies?
Did you see the huge news articles and media coverage about the 650 deaths from ICE vehicle fires in 2021?

"In 2021, there were 174,000 highway vehicle fires reported in the United States which caused 650 civilian deaths. This was an increase from the previous year, when 580 civilians died from highway vehicle fires."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/377 ... le%20fires.

The answer is no, you didn't see any news coverage. Ask yourself why.

In regards to the age of the vehicles, the tiny bit of poking I did showed that older cars tend to catch fire more often, apparently mainly due to mechanical failures.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Northern Flicker »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:36 pm
tibbitts wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:58 am I haven't had a hybrid car. You don't want to wait for the new generation that's being released now? I assume you're considering the ICE 4 not the 6. Camrys seem to be in very low supply still.

Have you tried the hybrid? I'm curious what the difference in engine braking would be (in fairly extreme conditions) between the ICE and hybrid.

You came to the wrong place to ask about a car loan unless your rate is close to negative.
I just rented a hybrid for the first time, but my 2k or so miles didn't include anywhere that was demanding (or even called for) engine braking. Nonetheless I tried to experiment and my conclusion is that the hybrid had what I'd called "acoustic engine braking", meaning as I downshifted (all the way to 1 at what would normally be an inappropriately high speed), the engine (or whatever) sounded like braking was happening, but it didn't have much effect. Or at least not the way it would in an ICE car. Until... I accelerated in the too-low gear, at which point the vehicle felt like it was indeed stuck in way too low of a gear and applying throttle didn't result in a lot of acceleration (but again more noise.)

I'd still like to hear from someone's who driven a hybrid (or electric car) somewhere you want braking (say, Pikes Peak in CO, or Mt. Washington in NH), where with an ICE car you can normally get by almost without using any brakes at all if you're determined to.
Hybrids do regenerative braking-- the EV motor functions as a generator and converts the braking energy to stored electricity. You want the drag from the EV motor rather than from the ICE engine compression as a result.

Also, Toyota hybrids have shiftless eCVT transmissions. You will want to rethink the model of slowing the car by downshifting if using a hybrid.

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/un ... ds-and-evs
tibbitts
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by tibbitts »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 12:07 am Also, Toyota hybrids have shiftless eCVT transmissions. You will want to rethink the model of slowing the car by downshifting if using a hybrid.

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/un ... ds-and-evs
As I explained the Toyota hybrid has the ability to at least simulate manual shifting with its eCVT, and to some extent it did simulate the behavior of an ICE automatic. What I wasn't able to determine due to the terrain was whether the vehicle speed can be controlled on relatively steep paved roads (not off-roading at very low speed, etc.) to the same extent it can be with an ICE vehicle. That's why I gave the examples I did. In fairness my experience with ICE in these environments is that engine braking may only be sufficient with modest vehicle loads - at max GVW the effectiveness of engine braking is significantly less. So I'm looking for a comparison of a similarly-loaded hybrid and ICE vehicle. Surely someone has experience with both in environments similar to what I've cited, although I realize that not everyone has the aversion to friction braking that I do.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Northern Flicker »

Yes, I have experienced both. I have owned ICE, diesel, and hybrid cars. Engine braking with a diesel engine is quite effective at stopping a vehicle due to the high compression ratio of a diesel engine.

Hybrids generally avoid friction braking by doing regenerative braking. Stopping the car by downshifting should not be part of one's mindset when driving a hybrid. It may just lead to sub-optimal regenerative braking, or may just have no effect.
tibbitts
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by tibbitts »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 1:40 am Yes, I have experienced both. I have owned ICE, diesel, and hybrid cars. Engine braking with a diesel engine is quite effective at stopping a vehicle due to the high compression ratio of a diesel engine.

Hybrids generally avoid friction braking by doing regenerative braking. Stopping the car by downshifting should not be part of one's mindset when driving a hybrid. It may just lead to sub-optimal regenerative braking, or may just have no effect.
How does the hybrid understand that you want to keep your speed to say 25mph vs. say 65mph when you're driving downhill? I should have tried this but didn't think to turn off the cruise control... so you're saying that when I came to a long downhill on a highway, if I'd taken my foot off the gas on a at say 65mph the car would have slowed pretty quickly to say 25mph whereas an ICE car would pick up speed with no throttle and be going 75mph? When the battery charge is complete (let's say a very long downhill) would the vehicle pick up speed again?
cshell2
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by cshell2 »

tibbitts wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 8:58 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 1:40 am Yes, I have experienced both. I have owned ICE, diesel, and hybrid cars. Engine braking with a diesel engine is quite effective at stopping a vehicle due to the high compression ratio of a diesel engine.

Hybrids generally avoid friction braking by doing regenerative braking. Stopping the car by downshifting should not be part of one's mindset when driving a hybrid. It may just lead to sub-optimal regenerative braking, or may just have no effect.
How does the hybrid understand that you want to keep your speed to say 25mph vs. say 65mph when you're driving downhill? I should have tried this but didn't think to turn off the cruise control... so you're saying that when I came to a long downhill on a highway, if I'd taken my foot off the gas on a at say 65mph the car would have slowed pretty quickly to say 25mph whereas an ICE car would pick up speed with no throttle and be going 75mph? When the battery charge is complete (let's say a very long downhill) would the vehicle pick up speed again?
You brake to slow down going down the hill, but instead of creating heat from friction it feeds the energy back into the system to charge the battery.
tibbitts
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by tibbitts »

cshell2 wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 9:13 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 8:58 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 1:40 am Yes, I have experienced both. I have owned ICE, diesel, and hybrid cars. Engine braking with a diesel engine is quite effective at stopping a vehicle due to the high compression ratio of a diesel engine.

Hybrids generally avoid friction braking by doing regenerative braking. Stopping the car by downshifting should not be part of one's mindset when driving a hybrid. It may just lead to sub-optimal regenerative braking, or may just have no effect.
How does the hybrid understand that you want to keep your speed to say 25mph vs. say 65mph when you're driving downhill? I should have tried this but didn't think to turn off the cruise control... so you're saying that when I came to a long downhill on a highway, if I'd taken my foot off the gas on a at say 65mph the car would have slowed pretty quickly to say 25mph whereas an ICE car would pick up speed with no throttle and be going 75mph? When the battery charge is complete (let's say a very long downhill) would the vehicle pick up speed again?
You brake to slow down going down the hill, but instead of creating heat from friction it feeds the energy back into the system to charge the battery.
But how does it know (or does it) that you want it to slow down when you're going downhill, assuming you haven't set the cruise control? With ICE obviously sometimes you have long downhills where you feel comfortable letting it run as fast as it can with no throttle to build up speed for that next uphill (yes, maybe to over the speed limit.) Other times, when the road has severe curves for example, you'd be terrified to do that and want to slow down, a lot. You're saying that with a hybrid, even with the battery at full charge, the vehicle won't just run downhill to whatever speed it might be able to achieve by just rolling without any resistance, without any input from you? What happens to the energy created if there's no battery capacity remaining? I noticed on my hybrid that the battery indicator always had at most about 4 or 5 out of 7(?) bars, so is that showing normally-unused capacity?
sureshoe
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by sureshoe »

Claudia Whitten wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:02 am I've had great experience with Camrys. My 2005 Camry still runs great. I can't believe an 18 year old car is still running, much less running great. The ride on that thing is so smooth that I get comments from my passengers about how pleasant it is to ride in it. After riding in my friend's Tesla (that has a horrible, bumpy ride), I understand why.
I can't believe we didn't fully derail into a Tesla argument based on this.

You can't compare a Tesla and Camry ride. Tesla is purposefully stiff. There are a lot of people who would say the Camry ride is terrible and "floaty". Neither people would be wrong.

Different cars serve different purposes and the ride accommodates that.
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just frank
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by just frank »

tibbitts wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 8:58 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 1:40 am Yes, I have experienced both. I have owned ICE, diesel, and hybrid cars. Engine braking with a diesel engine is quite effective at stopping a vehicle due to the high compression ratio of a diesel engine.

Hybrids generally avoid friction braking by doing regenerative braking. Stopping the car by downshifting should not be part of one's mindset when driving a hybrid. It may just lead to sub-optimal regenerative braking, or may just have no effect.
How does the hybrid understand that you want to keep your speed to say 25mph vs. say 65mph when you're driving downhill? I should have tried this but didn't think to turn off the cruise control... so you're saying that when I came to a long downhill on a highway, if I'd taken my foot off the gas on a at say 65mph the car would have slowed pretty quickly to say 25mph whereas an ICE car would pick up speed with no throttle and be going 75mph? When the battery charge is complete (let's say a very long downhill) would the vehicle pick up speed again?
Explained upthread... hybrids have a 'gear' for this, I think its 'B' for braking on Toyotas. On my Chevy its 'L'.
bogles the mind
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by bogles the mind »

finite_difference wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:21 pm
65TPT wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:13 am
BogleAlltheWay wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:10 am
H-Town wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:01 am
BogleAlltheWay wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:24 am All,

I am debating between buying a 2024 Camry or the Hybrid version.
Also, should I pay it in full or get an auto loan?
Wait for a couple of months and you'll get 2025 Camry. There's no ICE vs. Hybrid debate at that point.
Why is there no debate?
The 2025 Camry is being redesigned. It is going hybrid only. It’s supposed to come out this spring. You may want to wait to see if you like it or try to get a deal on a 24 model.
I would never buy a redesign or new model year. Unless they are keeping the powertrain the same?
I second this. Better off waiting a year or 2.
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just frank
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by just frank »

sureshoe wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 9:32 am
Claudia Whitten wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:02 am I've had great experience with Camrys. My 2005 Camry still runs great. I can't believe an 18 year old car is still running, much less running great. The ride on that thing is so smooth that I get comments from my passengers about how pleasant it is to ride in it. After riding in my friend's Tesla (that has a horrible, bumpy ride), I understand why.
I can't believe we didn't fully derail into a Tesla argument based on this.

You can't compare a Tesla and Camry ride. Tesla is purposefully stiff. There are a lot of people who would say the Camry ride is terrible and "floaty". Neither people would be wrong.

Different cars serve different purposes and the ride accommodates that.
2024 Tesla model 3 has a whole new suspension system that is much smoother, and much better acoustic isolation in the cabin. It would be interesting to comapre to the Camry again. :D
Northern Flicker
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Northern Flicker »

tibbitts wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 9:22 am
cshell2 wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 9:13 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 8:58 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 1:40 am Yes, I have experienced both. I have owned ICE, diesel, and hybrid cars. Engine braking with a diesel engine is quite effective at stopping a vehicle due to the high compression ratio of a diesel engine.

Hybrids generally avoid friction braking by doing regenerative braking. Stopping the car by downshifting should not be part of one's mindset when driving a hybrid. It may just lead to sub-optimal regenerative braking, or may just have no effect.
How does the hybrid understand that you want to keep your speed to say 25mph vs. say 65mph when you're driving downhill? I should have tried this but didn't think to turn off the cruise control... so you're saying that when I came to a long downhill on a highway, if I'd taken my foot off the gas on a at say 65mph the car would have slowed pretty quickly to say 25mph whereas an ICE car would pick up speed with no throttle and be going 75mph? When the battery charge is complete (let's say a very long downhill) would the vehicle pick up speed again?
You brake to slow down going down the hill, but instead of creating heat from friction it feeds the energy back into the system to charge the battery.
But how does it know (or does it) that you want it to slow down when you're going downhill, assuming you haven't set the cruise control?
It knows that because you are using the brake pedal. If you are decelerating at a greater rate than can be achieved by the drag of electrical power generation, friction braking will augment it. This is better than engine braking with an ICE car because you are capturing much of the energy, and it saves brake pad wear without inducing wear on more expensive components.

Engine braking an ICE or diesel car is good for safety purposes to avoid skids, but the savings of brake pad wear is a false economy. Brake pads are much cheaper to replace than transmissions or engines.
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by tibbitts »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 2:11 pm It knows that because you are using the brake pedal. If you are decelerating at a greater rate than can be achieved by the drag of electrical power generation, friction braking will augment it. This is better than engine braking with an ICE car because you are capturing much of the energy, and it saves brake pad wear without inducing wear on more expensive components.

Engine braking an ICE or diesel car is good for safety purposes to avoid skids, but the savings of brake pad wear is a false economy. Brake pads are much cheaper to replace than transmissions or engines.
To be clear I don't use or recommend engine braking except under extraordinary circumstances where safety is an issue.

My hybrid rental was a really nice car and I would have been happy owning it (except when the tire pressure warning light came on); I just didn't have an opportunity to test it under demanding conditions, thus my questions.
arf30
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by arf30 »

In general Toyota has an excellent hybrid system and I always recommend people go with the hybrid except in very specific situations (eg. you need the torque vectoring AWD in the Highlander gas model for towing).
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telemark
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by telemark »

In the absence of cruise control, the car knows how fast you want to go by the inputs you give it, using the accelerator and brake pedals. These are both purely electronic inputs to the controlling system, and neither pedal is mechanically connected to anything. If you aren't touching either pedal, Toyota hybrids are programmed to simulate a hydraulic automatic transmission: the car will accelerate gently on the level, somewhat faster on a downhill grade. This is presumably to be more in line with what drivers normally expect. For a given level of braking, the system will decide for itself whether to use regen braking, friction braking, or engine braking if you have enabled that.

Some hybrid models will also simulate shifting between different gear levels. As far as I know, this is pure theater, like Ford using the cabin speakers to produce fake engine noise in some of their trucks.
Tamal
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Tamal »

Claudia Whitten wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:50 am
Tamal wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:47 am Hi Claudia,

The hybrid battery on our 2007 Prius died at 80000 miles. The morning I discovered this, I saw practically every light on the dashboard come on when starting the car. Amazingly the car was still driveable, just underpowered as it had only the ICE engine to power the car. I drove it to the dealer and a quick look at the dash from the service advisor confirmed the hybrid battery was dead. I drove a dealer-supplied rental for a couple days while they replaced the battery under warranty.

We continued driving our Prius for approximately another 100K miles with no issues until it met it's demise in a car accident. It was one of the best vehicles we ever owned.
Interesting. How much did it cost to replace the battery?
As I recall, my out of pocket was zero as this was a warranty item. I don't recall what the dealer paid for battery replacement.
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