Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

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Topic Author
BackAtItAgain
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Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

I've looked all over to try and figure this out let me set the stage:

I am over 59.5 and have had another Roth IRA open for over 5 years. Married and Filing Jointly.
165k in earnings and 30k roth 401k contributions and 16k into Roth IRA's for myself and wife. The contributions to the Roth IRA require income to be limited to $230k otherwise they are not allowed.
Wanting to maximize roth conversion so I would like to convert up to the top of the 24% bracket which is 383k.
Want to do 200k of conversions, I do have 200k plus in a brokerage account with an effective cost basis of 0% (all taxable at 15% longtem cap gains)

Some would suggest just convert the 200k and then use the brokerage account to pay the tax.

In this case:

The amount that would be required to be withdrawn from the brokerage and cover the conversion taxes, capital gains taxes and state taxes
would be about 79k. That 79k added to 165k in earnings would be over the allowable $230k of earnings for roth ira contributions


Now what I would like to do is:

Convert 200k and have no taxes withheld. After the conversion remove the taxes required from the new Roth IRA. Which would be less because I am now withdrawing from a Roth and there is no
impact on my earning. Taxes would roughly be about 59.5k for both state and federal. No cap gain tax.



Question: Can I do this or am I missing something?
Last edited by BackAtItAgain on Tue May 14, 2024 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bongo
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by bongo »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 2:39 pm Want to do 200k of conversions, I do have 200k plus in a brokerage account with an effective cost basis of 100% (all taxable at 15% longtem cap gains)

Some would suggest just convert the 200k and then use the brokerage account to pay the tax.

In this case:

The amount that would be required to be withdrawn from the brokerage and cover the conversion taxes, capital gains taxes and state taxes
would be about 79k. That 79k added to 165k in earnings would be over the allowable $230k of earnings for roth ira contributions
Cost basis of 100% would mean no cap gain tax at all and no addition to your income.

Do you mean 100% gain, so basis is 50%? Then if you need to liquidate 79k, only 1/2 of that is cap gain, so you will only add 39.5k to your income and not exceed the roth income limit either.

Also, then amount needed to liquidate is closer to 69k than 79k.
Topic Author
BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

Your right cost basis is effectively 0. 100% is taxable and it is long term cap gains.
bongo
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by bongo »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 4:23 pm Your right cost basis is effectively 0. 100% is taxable and it is long term cap gains.
In that case, is a back door roth convenient? No problem with income limits then.

otw, if you are perfectly happy paying taxes out of the Roth, I don't seen why not just have it withheld on the conversion. The same 200k shows up on your taxes I think.

edit: oh, I think you are saying the withheld part does get added to the Roth MAGI. I think you are right.
Topic Author
BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

Yes, my understanding is that it gets added for MAGI for Roth contributions. Which would put me over the limit.
Mattman25
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by Mattman25 »

Backdoor Roth, no income limitations. Super easy to do with the major brokerage firms. https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth
avalpert1
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by avalpert1 »

Why do you want to convert up through the 24% bracket - what do you think your tax rate will be when you no longer have that $165k in earnings and need to be withdrawing from your retirement accounts for spending?

And you obviously would be over $230 AGI if you are targeting taxable income up around $380...
secondcor521
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by secondcor521 »

The income limit is for contributions, not conversions, and apply in the year of the conversion, and don't apply to Roth 401(k) contributions. So, some options / ideas:

1. Do the entire $200K conversion and skip the $16K of Roth IRA contributions this year.

2. Do the entire $200K conversion in 2024. Sell the stock necessary to pay the taxes from the taxable account in spring 2025, which puts the associated CGs on your 2025 return. Obviously you would need to assess where you sit in terms of safe harbors and estimated taxes and withholding in order to avoid an underpayment penalty. And the CGs in 2025 would affect your 2025 tax picture, of course.

3. Slow down, and convert to the top of the 22% bracket over the next few years. That's ~$191K taxable for MFJ, which with the standard deduction of about $30K means an AGI of $221K, which subtracting $165K of income gives you maybe $56K of conversion room each year.

Also, I just googled and the income limit for 2024 is $240K, not $230K.
Topic Author
BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

I appreciate all of the replies. Let me add a bit more detail

My goal, is to maximize the conversions while the TAXcut and Jobs Act is still in effect. This is the reason for going to the 24% bracket. A portion of the money in the Roth will be used to keep my income low for ACA subsidies.

As for the backdoor Roth. I have already contributed most of the 8k in the two Roth for my wife and I. I understand if I want to roll that back I would have to take out my contributions and figure out the gains and then pay taxes on them. If this was 2022 it would have been easier as most of us didn't have any gains.

Hope this clears things up.
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celia
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by celia »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 2:39 pm I am over 59.5 and have had another Roth IRA open for over 5 years. Married and Filing Jointly.
165k in earnings and 30k roth 401k contributions and 16k into Roth IRA's for myself and wife. The contributions to the Roth IRA require income to be limited to $230k otherwise they are not allowed.
I assume you are aware that everyone with compensation can contribute to a Roth IRA by doing a Backdoor Roth. However, you and your spouse may not want to do that if your IRAs hold primarily tax-deferred contributions (that previously lowered your income) since the pro rata rule would apply.

Do either of you have an employer plan that would allow tax-deferred rollovers from your IRAs?
Wanting to maximize roth conversion so I would like to convert up to the top of the 24% bracket which is 383k.
Want to do 200k of conversions, I do have 200k plus in a brokerage account with an effective cost basis of 0% (all taxable at 15% longtem cap gains)
I assume the $200k to be converted is in a tIRA and was tax-deferred when it went in. I also assume your "brokerage" refers to a taxable account (not a retirement account).
Some would suggest just convert the 200k and then use the brokerage account to pay the tax.

In this case:

The amount that would be required to be withdrawn from the brokerage and cover the conversion taxes, capital gains taxes and state taxes would be about 79k. That 79k added to 165k in earnings would be over the allowable $230k of earnings for roth ira contributions
Why are you worrying about Roth contributions when you want to a Roth conversion which has no dollar limit? (You can covert a million dollars if you want.)
Now what I would like to do is:

Convert 200k and have no taxes withheld. After the conversion remove the taxes required from the new Roth IRA. Which would be less because I am now withdrawing from a Roth and there is no impact on my earning. Taxes would roughly be about 59.5k for both state and federal. No cap gain tax.

Question: Can I do this or am I missing something?
Yes, you can do that, like other people do. Taxes will also be due on the assets sold in Taxable that have gains besides the dollars being converted. But you will pay the same taxes whether it comes from Taxable (with the "sell") or the Roth IRA.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
bongo
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by bongo »

Some blended approach then maybe,

Sell 65k stock and use 14k from Roth

Or sell 65k stock this year and another 14k in Jan.

etc.
avalpert1
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by avalpert1 »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:37 pm As for the backdoor Roth. I have already contributed most of the 8k in the two Roth for my wife and I. I understand if I want to roll that back I would have to take out my contributions and figure out the gains and then pay taxes on them. If this was 2022 it would have been easier as most of us didn't have any gains.
Your plan is to have $380k in taxable income this year - you will not be eligible for Roth contributions (you seem to be excluding the $200k conversion from your AGI but it is part of it).
Topic Author
BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

My understanding is that a conversion is part of your taxable income but is excluded from your MAGI for Roth IRA contributions. Conversions get subtracted for Roth IRA MAGI.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Modifie ... oss_Income

So my thought process is convert $200k to Roth and do not withhold taxes. Wait 1 week after that arrives in my Roth and then withdraw $59k to pay state and federal tax for the conversion and use that to make a estimated tax payment to the IRS. Because the withdrawal is not taxable because it was in a Roth I won't drive up my income of $165k. Hence staying below the maximum income for Roth IRA contributions
Topic Author
BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

celia wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:45 pm
BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 2:39 pm I am over 59.5 and have had another Roth IRA open for over 5 years. Married and Filing Jointly.
165k in earnings and 30k roth 401k contributions and 16k into Roth IRA's for myself and wife. The contributions to the Roth IRA require income to be limited to $230k otherwise they are not allowed.
I assume you are aware that everyone with compensation can contribute to a Roth IRA by doing a Backdoor Roth. However, you and your spouse may not want to do that if your IRAs hold primarily tax-deferred contributions (that previously lowered your income) since the pro rata rule would apply.

Do either of you have an employer plan that would allow tax-deferred rollovers from your IRAs?
Wanting to maximize roth conversion so I would like to convert up to the top of the 24% bracket which is 383k.
Want to do 200k of conversions, I do have 200k plus in a brokerage account with an effective cost basis of 0% (all taxable at 15% longtem cap gains)
I assume the $200k to be converted is in a tIRA and was tax-deferred when it went in. I also assume your "brokerage" refers to a taxable account (not a retirement account).
Some would suggest just convert the 200k and then use the brokerage account to pay the tax.

In this case:

The amount that would be required to be withdrawn from the brokerage and cover the conversion taxes, capital gains taxes and state taxes would be about 79k. That 79k added to 165k in earnings would be over the allowable $230k of earnings for roth ira contributions
Why are you worrying about Roth contributions when you want to a Roth conversion which has no dollar limit? (You can covert a million dollars if you want.)
Now what I would like to do is:

Convert 200k and have no taxes withheld. After the conversion remove the taxes required from the new Roth IRA. Which would be less because I am now withdrawing from a Roth and there is no impact on my earning. Taxes would roughly be about 59.5k for both state and federal. No cap gain tax.

Question: Can I do this or am I missing something?
Yes, you can do that, like other people do. Taxes will also be due on the assets sold in Taxable that have gains besides the dollars being converted. But you will pay the same taxes whether it comes from Taxable (with the "sell") or the Roth IRA.
I have already contributed to the Roths seems like a headache to get that out and calculate the gains and pay those taxes too. I do understand what you are saying. I'm kinda doing this backwards. Next year I won't contribute to my Roth IRA's and do my conversions and maybe do Backdoor Roths.
secondcor521
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by secondcor521 »

avalpert1 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:48 pm
BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:37 pm As for the backdoor Roth. I have already contributed most of the 8k in the two Roth for my wife and I. I understand if I want to roll that back I would have to take out my contributions and figure out the gains and then pay taxes on them. If this was 2022 it would have been easier as most of us didn't have any gains.
Your plan is to have $380k in taxable income this year - you will not be eligible for Roth contributions (you seem to be excluding the $200k conversion from your AGI but it is part of it).
As the OP's post below yours states correctly, the $200K conversion would be part of AGI, but would not be part of MAGI for Roth contribution purposes.

The CGs from sales of taxable to pay the taxes would be part of AGI and MAGI for Roth contribution purposes, but as I noted in an earlier post they could possibly defer realization of those into spring 2025.
secondcor521
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by secondcor521 »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:37 pm My goal, is to maximize the conversions while the TAXcut and Jobs Act is still in effect. This is the reason for going to the 24% bracket. A portion of the money in the Roth will be used to keep my income low for ACA subsidies.
The TCJA and the ACA 400% FPL cliff suspension are both in place for tax years 2024 and 2025. You could at least spread the conversions over two years - this year and next year. Maybe do top of 22% this year, then top of 24% in 2025 might get you to where you want to be.
Topic Author
BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

secondcor521 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:26 pm
BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:37 pm My goal, is to maximize the conversions while the TAXcut and Jobs Act is still in effect. This is the reason for going to the 24% bracket. A portion of the money in the Roth will be used to keep my income low for ACA subsidies.
The TCJA and the ACA 400% FPL cliff suspension are both in place for tax years 2024 and 2025. You could at least spread the conversions over two years - this year and next year. Maybe do top of 22% this year, then top of 24% in 2025 might get you to where you want to be.
I'm looking to do another $300k Roth Conversion next year in 2025. Planning on retiring mid year 2025 and income to that point should be right around $60k. So I need to get as much in as possible. I realize the ACA pricing is locked in until 2025 (maximum 8% of income). I was going to use COBRA for the last 6 months of 2025 so that I would have to worry about the ACA credits (I have enough in my HSA to pay the COBRA premiums). In 2026 I would go on ACA for 3 years, and keep income low with the Roth Conversions I have done. Just feather in the roth money enough to keep off of the Medicaid rolls because of too low income.
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FiveK
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by FiveK »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 5:37 pm I have already contributed most of the 8k in the two Roth for my wife and I.
The MAGI for Roth IRA purposes does not include Roth conversions, so if you keep that MAGI below the limit then no change is needed.

If you will be over the Roth contribution limit, have the brokerage recharacterize your contribution so it is treated as a non-deductible contribution made to a traditional IRA on the date of your original contribution. Then it simply becomes part of your Roth conversion, with the non-taxable fraction determined on Form 8606.
Exchme
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by Exchme »

Have you (OP) actually modeled this with a good model like the Bogleheads' very own Retiree Portfolio Model (free) or the even more powerful Pralana Gold (commercial paid program). It strikes me as somewhat unlikely that you need to be doing such large conversions unless you have a couple million in your tax deferred. For instance, there should be a window of time after you are on Medicare that you could get substantial amounts converted in the 12% bracket.
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BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

Exchme wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:05 pm Have you (OP) actually modeled this with a good model like the Bogleheads' very own Retiree Portfolio Model (free) or the even more powerful Pralana Gold (commercial paid program). It strikes me as somewhat unlikely that you need to be doing such large conversions unless you have a couple million in your tax deferred. For instance, there should be a window of time after you are on Medicare that you could get substantial amounts converted in the 12% bracket.
Thanks, two new ones to try. I've used Projections Labs, New Retirement, Wealth Trace, MaxiFi, and The Retirement Budget Calculator. I did have conversions after 65 in my plan. At that time you have to stay below the IRMAA limit. Goal is to get everything converted before Social Security at 70 or at least as much as i can. After converting $500k, over the next 2 years I would still have another $500k that will be in the market for 5 years before I can get to it at 65 and start again. At that time with a 7% annual gain I'd be at ~700k. It's going to be a struggle to get that all converter before 70. I assuming I may be able to get another 400k of that from 65 to 70. Leaving me with 300k or so left I'm my IRA.

All of this is hypothetical, depending on the market.
secondcor521
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by secondcor521 »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 8:00 pm
Exchme wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:05 pm Have you (OP) actually modeled this with a good model like the Bogleheads' very own Retiree Portfolio Model (free) or the even more powerful Pralana Gold (commercial paid program). It strikes me as somewhat unlikely that you need to be doing such large conversions unless you have a couple million in your tax deferred. For instance, there should be a window of time after you are on Medicare that you could get substantial amounts converted in the 12% bracket.
Thanks, two new ones to try. I've used Projections Labs, New Retirement, Wealth Trace, MaxiFi, and The Retirement Budget Calculator. I did have conversions after 65 in my plan. At that time you have to stay below the IRMAA limit. Goal is to get everything converted before Social Security at 70 or at least as much as i can. After converting $500k, over the next 2 years I would still have another $500k that will be in the market for 5 years before I can get to it at 65 and start again. At that time with a 7% annual gain I'd be at ~700k. It's going to be a struggle to get that all converter before 70. I assuming I may be able to get another 400k of that from 65 to 70. Leaving me with 300k or so left I'm my IRA.

All of this is hypothetical, depending on the market.
I agree with Exchme...you're probably converting too aggressively and are possibly paying too much in taxes over your lifetime trying to drain your IRA by 70.

RMDs for you probably start at age 73. The initial RMD would be about 4%, so a $700K IRA at that point would mean a $28K RMD, which is really not that much. You're likely going to be spending more than that anyway, and $28K for someone MFJ and over 65 it would essentially be tax free because it would be under the standard deduction; maybe a bit gets taxed at 10% if/when TCJA expires.

You can also probably do smallish conversions for the ACA years and still get a decent subsidy (I consider the subsidy loss to be a separate, parallel tax and take it into account when doing my Roth conversions).

Why the age 70 goal? I would do some projections including IRMAA and ACA and all of that and see what your marginal rate looks like in your early 80s with your conversion plans. Remember too that if you pass away, you won't be paying those income tax rates after that point (although your heirs will pay income taxes at their rates).
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BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

secondcor521 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 8:13 pm
BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 8:00 pm
Exchme wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:05 pm Have you (OP) actually modeled this with a good model like the Bogleheads' very own Retiree Portfolio Model (free) or the even more powerful Pralana Gold (commercial paid program). It strikes me as somewhat unlikely that you need to be doing such large conversions unless you have a couple million in your tax deferred. For instance, there should be a window of time after you are on Medicare that you could get substantial amounts converted in the 12% bracket.
Thanks, two new ones to try. I've used Projections Labs, New Retirement, Wealth Trace, MaxiFi, and The Retirement Budget Calculator. I did have conversions after 65 in my plan. At that time you have to stay below the IRMAA limit. Goal is to get everything converted before Social Security at 70 or at least as much as i can. After converting $500k, over the next 2 years I would still have another $500k that will be in the market for 5 years before I can get to it at 65 and start again. At that time with a 7% annual gain I'd be at ~700k. It's going to be a struggle to get that all converter before 70. I assuming I may be able to get another 400k of that from 65 to 70. Leaving me with 300k or so left I'm my IRA.

All of this is hypothetical, depending on the market.
I agree with Exchme...you're probably converting too aggressively and are possibly paying too much in taxes over your lifetime trying to drain your IRA by 70.

RMDs for you probably start at age 73. The initial RMD would be about 4%, so a $700K IRA at that point would mean a $28K RMD, which is really not that much. You're likely going to be spending more than that anyway, and $28K for someone MFJ and over 65 it would essentially be tax free because it would be under the standard deduction; maybe a bit gets taxed at 10% if/when TCJA expires.

You can also probably do smallish conversions for the ACA years and still get a decent subsidy (I consider the subsidy loss to be a separate, parallel tax and take it into account when doing my Roth conversions).

Why the age 70 goal? I would do some projections including IRMAA and ACA and all of that and see what your marginal rate looks like in your early 80s with your conversion plans. Remember too that if you pass away, you won't be paying those income tax rates after that point (although your heirs will pay income taxes at their rates).
Maybe I'm being to aggressive. At 70, Social Security would pay all of my expenses. I would only use the Roth money for vacations, a car every 5-7 years and home repairs. I have a paid off home worth about 500k, that I would use for long term care if necessary. I was just hoping to have a tax free retirement after 70 a goal that may seem farfetched. I do understand that I may be paying more in taxes then necessary. Well I guess I can still dream. In the end the left over money will end up with my children and then they'll inherited the tax issue.
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celia
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by celia »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:23 pm I have already contributed to the Roths seems like a headache to get that out and calculate the gains and pay those taxes too. I do understand what you are saying. I'm kinda doing this backwards. Next year I won't contribute to my Roth IRA's and do my conversions and maybe do Backdoor Roths.
Your tax software will take care of the calculations while it is filling out Form 8606. Your job is to do the correct input. (Hint: Report the contributions (and that they non-deductible) before reporting the conversions.

If you have a 401K or other employer tax-deferred account that accepts rollovers, you should consider rolling over anything that won't be converted this year (or next?). That way, you can use up all the "basis" (post-tax money) so that the pro rata rule doesn't have an effect after 2025.

After you retire, you likely won't be able to rollover the IRA to the 401K. But the 401k would be eligible to go to the IRA. But, remember, the pro rata rule will apply every year until your IRA is empty on Dec 31 one year. So the final 401k rollover to IRA should be after that, if that's what you are planning.
A dollar in Roth is worth more than a dollar in a taxable account. A dollar in taxable is worth more than a dollar in a tax-deferred account.
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BackAtItAgain
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Re: Yes, Another Roth Conversion Question but with a Twist

Post by BackAtItAgain »

BackAtItAgain wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 6:06 pm So my thought process is convert $200k to Roth and do not withhold taxes. Wait 1 week after that arrives in my Roth and then withdraw $59k to pay state and federal tax for the conversion and use that to make a estimated tax payment to the IRS. Because the withdrawal is not taxable because it was in a Roth I won't drive up my income of $165k. Hence staying below the maximum income for Roth IRA contributions
I think i found my answer on YouTube. This is what I was trying to accomplish. Sounds right? :confused

Link to a video:
https://youtu.be/LP0nX0rpHzI?si=97zYoKxp2sNteu5E
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