Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

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calmaniac
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by calmaniac »

Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 11:30 am
calmaniac wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:45 am
Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:58 am One thing that concerns me regarding both hybrids and EVs are spontaneous lithium Ion battery fires. There are a number of YT videos on these instances, some fires on the road, others in a garage, even one video of a cargo ship entire load of vehicles catching on fire. Due to my work experience in the renewable energy field developing utility scale energy storage facilities, I have a strong sense of caution at the moment.
• The lifetime risk of dying in a car accident is 1 in 93 (≈1%), National Safety Council.
• The annual risk of being in a car accident and landing up in an emergency room is also ≈1%, National Center for Health Statistics

....and you are worried about the risk of batteries catching fire?

Really?
Really? You want a hybrid, then buy one. I'm not stopping you. I said a "strong sense of caution." When building a renewable energy energy storage project, we invested millions in the design and safety systems to contain the fire. It admittedly influences my thinking, interpret that as you will. Consider not just the loss of the car by itself, but the potential loss of the structures (garage/houses), one of which hit close to home recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkeF_vC7QS0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohSH4WbETls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en3PuyWQ_7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlWb_phdUak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNuSUsvnxEA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr0uj5fChLA (ok, this is not a garage, but the container ship I alluded to earlier)

Per a simple bing chat query, 28.6% of total 2023 Toyota sales were electrified, which includes the hybrids. In 2025 Toyota will be going all in on hybrids (hence my reference to the article that Toyota is going all in on hybrids in 2025). From sales figures, there are a substantial number of people who still prefer ICE vehicle. Refer back to the OP's original question, "Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid"
YouTube videos? Really? As we say in my business, "The plural of anecdote is not data"
"Pretired", working 20 h/wk. AA 75/25: 30% TSM, 19% value (VFVA/AVUV), 18% Int'l LC, 8% emerging, 25% GFund/VBTLX. Military pension ≈60% of expenses. Pension+SS@age 70 ≈100% of expenses.
ondarvr
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by ondarvr »

Our company converted over to ICE Camrys about two years ago, the general consensus is that they ride rough, tend to be loud, and not as enjoyable to drive as the prior choices. We had Fusions and Sonatas before, everyone liked those cars better than this version of Camry, and at 70 to 100,000 miles none had mechanical issues.

The Fusion hybrids were the best, very quiet and smooth, the hybrid model of each was better than the ICE version, probably due to being a bit heavier and incorporating more and better sound proofing.
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Toons
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Toons »

Hybrid
Pay Cash :mrgreen:
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
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BogleAlltheWay
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by BogleAlltheWay »

Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:58 am Discussion is drifting off topic. OP is trying to choose between a Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid.

The Car Care Nut is a reputable reviewer. In the attached YT video, starting at about 7 minutes, "Should you buy a hybrid". At 9:48 "why don't buy a hybrid" (section generally talking about used hybrids, not new). In that section at 10:30, he mentions the cost of a hybrid transmission replacement (if neglected or not maintained) is "scary".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5j8nJrMc8

So, OP, how do you intend to use the vehicle? City driving, mountain driving, expected mileage per year (low mileage use/long periods of storage of hybrids impacts battery lifetime), weather extremes? Noted that a Camry has a little less than 5" of ground clearance. That makes it problematic if you get 42" of snow (recent event here in Colorado).

For me personally, I have mixed feelings. For my most recent purchases, I purchased ICE powered vehicles, which are both low mileage vehicles. Would I consider a hybrid? Not with my present usage patterns.

One thing that concerns me regarding both hybrids and EVs are spontaneous lithium Ion battery fires. There are a number of YT videos on these instances, some fires on the road, others in a garage, even one video of a cargo ship entire load of vehicles catching on fire. Due to my work experience in the renewable energy field developing utility scale energy storage facilities, I have a strong sense of caution at the moment.

Choose wisely. :D
I will driving mostly on highways and 13-15k miles a year. I am in NJ so we do have snow but not Colorado snow.
Dottie57
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Dottie57 »

Claudia Whitten wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:12 am
JerseyJim wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:10 pm I have a 2013 Camry hybrid and love it. Has 149,000 miles and still original parts and gets a little over 40mpg. Slightly less in the NJ winters and over 40mpg in the summers. My driving includes a combination of local and hi-way driving as well a small amount of hills. It has plenty of power and no problem getting up to speed and entering on the highway. I strongly will consider getting another Camry hybrid in the future if I need to.

JerseyJim
So am I to understand that as the battery in these vehicles deteriorates, the gas engine will be used more often and therefore the car will get fewer miles per gallon? Does the car have a light or something that says "replace battery" (EV battery)?
No light. But dealer mechanc can tell you where battery is in lfe cycle. Also you will be buying gas more often.
FIRWYW
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by FIRWYW »

Have not driven the Camry hybrid but former owner of 2 Camrys and have driven my parents accord hybrid. I would assume the Camry hybrid drives similar. If so, no brainer for me. I would go with the hybrid. You will easily recoup the cost difference between those two in gas. Toyota has excellent tract record with hybrid batteries lasting longer than the rest of the car (or at least 300k miles). With exception of the older model Prius every hybrid have driven is quieter than its Ice Counterpart and as someone upstream has said, has more power by the specs
Napa Car Guy
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Napa Car Guy »

Drive both...you will buy the hybrid. Dont worry about the batteries...we have serviced 1000s of them over the years and I can count on my hand how many hybrid batteries we replaced. Best car for bang for buck on the planet in my humble opinion.
Paullmas
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Paullmas »

65TPT wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:13 am The 2025 Camry is being redesigned. It is going hybrid only. It’s supposed to come out this spring. You may want to wait to see if you like it or try to get a deal on a 24 model.
THIS. A redesign will usually have bugs, even Toyota.

2024
ICE vs Hybrid - Toyota so toss-up. (Other mfgs, avoid Hybrids)
Hybrid
Not a plug-in so not a huge complicated battery with multiple failure points.
Better gas mileage.
More power than ICE.

ICE
Every mechanic knows how to fix these. And they last forever, just change the oil frequently.
Just say no to international.
carolinaman
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by carolinaman »

I bought a 2014 camry hybrid new. It has been a great car. It has 103k miles and I have had no major issues with it so far. I had 1992 and 2004 Camrys. You cannot beat their reliability. My only complaint is that it is noisier and has a rougher ride than my 2004. At its price point, it is hard to beat.

It sounds like waiting on the 2025 hybrid might be a good strategy.
cmr79
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by cmr79 »

Paullmas wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:18 am ...
Not a plug-in so not a huge complicated battery with multiple failure points.
...
Is this true when comparing like to like, i.e., the RAV4 hybrid is more reliable than the RAV4 Prime? If so, I haven't heard it and would be interested to know a source.
jebmke
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by jebmke »

Paullmas wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:18 am
65TPT wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:13 am The 2025 Camry is being redesigned. It is going hybrid only. It’s supposed to come out this spring. You may want to wait to see if you like it or try to get a deal on a 24 model.
THIS. A redesign will usually have bugs, even Toyota.

2024
ICE vs Hybrid - Toyota so toss-up. (Other mfgs, avoid Hybrids)
Hybrid
Not a plug-in so not a huge complicated battery with multiple failure points.
Better gas mileage.
More power than ICE.

ICE
Every mechanic knows how to fix these. And they last forever, just change the oil frequently.
If there are issues with new designs they can also often result from production. Typically when a new design is rolled out there are major replacements or changes to the production tooling, equipment and procedures; there may even be a change in Tier 1 OEMs supplying the facility. Sometimes it is fairly close to a greenfield build-out. In a few cases, I have seen the new model being rolled out in an entirely different or new plant (true greenfield).
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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telemark
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by telemark »

Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:58 am The Car Care Nut is a reputable reviewer. In the attached YT video, starting at about 7 minutes, "Should you buy a hybrid". At 9:48 "why don't buy a hybrid" (section generally talking about used hybrids, not new). In that section at 10:30, he mentions the cost of a hybrid transmission replacement (if neglected or not maintained) is "scary".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5j8nJrMc8
And in another video, he mentions that if your fuel pump fails, you will need to replace the entire gas tank which can be very expensive. This is true, and his advice (not to habitually run your tank on low) is good, but it's a low probability event: I would not avoid gasoline-powered cars for this reason.

Have the transmission serviced at 60K miles and you'll be fine. Toyota hybrid transmissions are extremely simple and reliable.
Tamal
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Tamal »

Claudia Whitten wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:12 am
JerseyJim wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:10 pm I have a 2013 Camry hybrid and love it. Has 149,000 miles and still original parts and gets a little over 40mpg. Slightly less in the NJ winters and over 40mpg in the summers. My driving includes a combination of local and hi-way driving as well a small amount of hills. It has plenty of power and no problem getting up to speed and entering on the highway. I strongly will consider getting another Camry hybrid in the future if I need to.

JerseyJim
So am I to understand that as the battery in these vehicles deteriorates, the gas engine will be used more often and therefore the car will get fewer miles per gallon? Does the car have a light or something that says "replace battery" (EV battery)?
Hi Claudia,

The hybrid battery on our 2007 Prius died at 80000 miles. The morning I discovered this, I saw practically every light on the dashboard come on when starting the car. Amazingly the car was still driveable, just underpowered as it had only the ICE engine to power the car. I drove it to the dealer and a quick look at the dash from the service advisor confirmed the hybrid battery was dead. I drove a dealer-supplied rental for a couple days while they replaced the battery under warranty.

We continued driving our Prius for approximately another 100K miles with no issues until it met it's demise in a car accident. It was one of the best vehicles we ever owned.

Just FYI -- The 2007 Prius had a small 12V lead-acid battery that was located in the vicinity of the passenger-side rear tail light. It was easy to access after removing a panel in the rear trunk area. My understanding is the 12V battery is used to power up fail-safe parts of the electronics that monitor the hybrid system of the car. When that lead-acid battery goes out (mine died at 7 years), the car will not start. I honestly don't remember if there was a light on the dash for that one or not; I just could not start the car and a after a quick search on google discovered I needed to replace that battery.

-David
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by jebmke »

Tamal wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:47 am When that lead-acid battery goes out (mine died at 7 years), the car will not start. I honestly don't remember if there was a light on the dash for that one or not; I just could not start the car and a after a quick search on google discovered I needed to replace that battery.
ICE cars have dealt with this since batteries replaced the hand crank.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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telemark
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by telemark »

There is also a smartphone app, Dr Prius, that pairs with a Bluetooth-enabled OBD2 reader and will tell you all about current battery health and identify problem cells. This is overkill for most people, in my opinion, but might be useful if you're evaluating a used hybrid. Despite the name, it works with most Toyota/Lexus hybrids.
crefwatch
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by crefwatch »

jebmke wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:51 am
Tamal wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:47 am When that smal lead-acid [gel-cell] battery goes out (mine died at 7 years), the car will not start. I honestly don't remember if there was a light on the dash for that one or not; I just could not start the car and a after a quick search on google discovered I needed to replace that battery.
ICE cars have dealt with this since batteries replaced the hand crank.
I agree that hybrid salesmen fail in their duty to disclose that there is a "motorcycle battery" under the trunk, to power the electronics. In my two (older) Priuses, when it failed, a jumper-cable start WOULD get the Prius running, like a car with a big lead-acid battery. But usually the next morning it would need another jump. I once replaced the motorcycle battery myself, but it turned out not to be identical enough .... "right of repair"? I don't know.
Claudia Whitten
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by Claudia Whitten »

Tamal wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:47 am Hi Claudia,

The hybrid battery on our 2007 Prius died at 80000 miles. The morning I discovered this, I saw practically every light on the dashboard come on when starting the car. Amazingly the car was still driveable, just underpowered as it had only the ICE engine to power the car. I drove it to the dealer and a quick look at the dash from the service advisor confirmed the hybrid battery was dead. I drove a dealer-supplied rental for a couple days while they replaced the battery under warranty.

We continued driving our Prius for approximately another 100K miles with no issues until it met it's demise in a car accident. It was one of the best vehicles we ever owned.
Interesting. How much did it cost to replace the battery?
random_walker_77
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Re: Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid

Post by random_walker_77 »

just frank wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:15 pm
Colorado Guy wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:58 am Discussion is drifting off topic. OP is trying to choose between a Toyota Camry vs Camry Hybrid.

.....

One thing that concerns me regarding both hybrids and EVs are spontaneous lithium Ion battery fires. There are a number of YT videos on these instances, some fires on the road, others in a garage, even one video of a cargo ship entire load of vehicles catching on fire. Due to my work experience in the renewable energy field developing utility scale energy storage facilities, I have a strong sense of caution at the moment.
The irony. Toyota is very conservative about Lithium batteries too, which is why it is still using NiMH chemistry in many/most of its hybrids.

They are cagey about which models/trims get which chemistry, but it seems the 2024 Camry hybrid gets the tried and true NiMH pack, except maybe the base trim level (since Lithium cells are now cheaper to produce).
It's true that Lithium fires are ferocious, and that any system using them has to pay a lot of effort into the design to manage the battery and its risks. When things go wrong, it's pretty bad, but at the same time, the risk is also sensationalized by the media. If a tesla catches fire, that's news-worthy. The 300 gas-powered cars that catch fire every day, however, are not the stuff of headlines. Motor Trend isn't exactly a big cheerleader of EVs, but they did an article on this and said "gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids"

On top of that, Toyota is famously conservative and still uses NiMH for most of their hybrid batteries, and I have no concerns about their cars given how risk-adverse and conservative they are
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