Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

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runswithscissors
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by runswithscissors »

H-Town wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:41 pm
HaveaNiceDay wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:28 pm I would add the Car Safety testing has advanced over the past years and the tests have become more rigorous, especially from the IIHS. Espcially if your current car is more than 10 years old.

For example, IIHS.org has updated the side crash testing starting in about 2021 from a 31mph crash with a 3,100lbs barrier to a 37mph crash with a 4,200lbs barrier which is more representative of the cars and large SUVs that can hit you in the side and are on the road today. If car makers want to get a good rating, they up the side protection. The speed and weight increase result in significantly more violent crash than the old numbers, thus requiring more protection.

Other tests have been updated as well.

The new headlight ratings are very helpful, especially as you age. The curve adaptive LED headlights on new Subaru's have made driving much better for my parents.

Point being, testing has evolved so newer cars are built to higher safety standards to score well on tests.

At high speed crash, it would be all about physics at that point. A pickup truck would do better than a sedan or crossover.

Many people focus on mass when it comes to vehicle safety, but newer cars have advanced safety technology that can prevent accidents from happening in the first place.

LexisNexis Risk Solutions research stated in a 2023 report that ADAS-equipped vehicles (Advanced Driver Assistance System) experience a significant 27% decrease in bodily injury claims and a 19% reduction in property damage claims vs vehicles that don't incorporate ADAS tech. These numbers are significant.

And the NHTSA conducted a study that concludes the older a vehicle is, the higher the percentage of occupants fatally injured in a crash. Their Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) data was grouped into seven age categories: 0-3 years, 4-7 years, 8-11 years, 12-14 years, 15-17 years, and 18+ years. Vehicles aged 0-3 years had a 27% fatality rate, while vehicles aged 18+ years had a 50% fatality rate.

Here is the breakdown of the data

* 1984 and older: 55%
* 1985-1992: 53%
* 1993-1997: 46%
* 1998-2002: 42%
* 2003-2007: 36%
* 2008-2012: 31%
* 2013-2017: 26%

Presumably with the significant advancements and deployment of safety tech in recent years, any data set from 2018 to present year vehicles will likely yield and even lower number than 26%.

If safety is even a consideration in the ownership of a vehicle, driving a clunker IMHO borders on irresponsible IF financial resources are more than adequate to upgrade to a newer vehicle.
gips
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by gips »

It took me longer to read your op and the subsequent replies to decide you should get a new car. Aren’t you going to feel silly if you or a loved one are seriously injured because you didn’t have say blind spot or lane detection but can easily afford a new car.

after we sold our business, my partners bought expensive bmws, I went out and bought a big, beautiful Subaru forester for around $27k with all the latest bells and whistles. My wife, after driving two minivans into the ground, wanted an mdx so we got one of those too.

Enjoy!
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LilyFleur
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by LilyFleur »

pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
Backup camera, automatic braking to prevent rear-ending the car in front of you, warning if you are moving out of your lane, warning if you are making a lane change into another car in your blind spot, automatic placing the car into park when you turn it off, and probably more stuff since I bought my 2019 Honda Accord.

One of my personal favorites, to avoid accidentally letting your foot move off the brake pedal (and saves wear and tear on the joints in stop and go traffic both in town and on the freeway): Brake Hold automatically "holds the brakes" for the driver while at a complete stop. You can remove your foot from the brake pedal once fully stopped, and Brake Hold will keep the rear brake lights illuminated and the keep the car fully stopped without your foot on the pedal.

You don't have to buy a luxury vehicle to get up-to-date safety features.
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mhc
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by mhc »

vnatale wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:14 pm
mhc wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:52 pm I replace cars when they become too much trouble. I always buy new. If you will keep the car for 10+ years, then who cares if you beat it up. It is how you use cars. It sounds like you can afford it. It doesn't matter if the price is above or below MSRP. You pay the market price. I just bought a Honda for below MSRP with no junk fees added.

I drove a 2004 Honda until 2019. My new Honda was so much nicer and enjoyable. I didn't realize how bad the old car was. I only drive about 2000 miles a year plus any road trips. I think it is so worth it to have a new car.
Still driving my 2004 Honda Accord. Has about 165,000 miles on it and I drive about 5,000 a year.

In what ways did you realize how bad your 2004 Honda was? I'm not seeing any issues with mine. More than adequate for my needs.
The 2004 CRV was still kind of a utilitarian vehicle. The 2024 is pushing for low end luxury.

The driver seat kind of flattened out
Everything in the interior kind of grungy
Arm rest flattened out.
Chips in windshield
thousands of micro-pits in windshield
the light for the D gear out

The car is still going strong, but it is pretty rough. It is the car my kids learn how to drive on. I just need another 2 years out of it.

Some of the new features I appreciate are:
head unit/display
backup camera
wireless android auto
heated seats
safety features
adaptive cruise control
new car smell
52% TSM, 23% TISM, 24.5% TBM, 0.5% cash
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tadamsmar
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by tadamsmar »

runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:38 am
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?

8. Advanced Electronic Stability Control (ESC)
He did not mention the make, model, or trim. He might have ESC.
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whodidntante
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by whodidntante »

What's wrong with the other new car? Could you take that on trips?

At a certain point a car is a hooptie. Even a timing belt replacement would mechanically total it. Then you could make the decision to keep driving the rig until it lets go, or not.

But I have great news. No one needs to spend 50k on a car they barely drive. You just have car fever. When I look at cars I see plenty of rigs for 20k that will meet all of my needs, and most of my wants. You can also rent specialized vehicles like enormous SUVs for the one road trip you take every three years.
Outer Marker
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Outer Marker »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm My family has a new car, but our other car is over 15 years old with 200k miles. Great car, but none of the new safety features and tech, it's due for some pricey maintenance and I don't want to break down especially if I take it on trips.
I would 100% keep your car, especially as a second car you drive only 5,000 miles a year. I drive a 17 year old BMW that is as fun to drive today as the day it was new. Some years, it's just an oil change, but other years I might spend several thousand on necessary maintenance (tires, shocks, struts, replace oil gasket, etc.). It's a solid car. I expect to get another 10+ years out of it. A comparable replacement car would be $80,000, so it's far less expensive to simply maintain it. For $600 to repair your Honda, it's almost a no-brainer.

You've got ABS and air bags which are far and away the most important "new" -ish safety improvements. Most of the rest of them are just gimmicks to compensate for bad driving technique. If you check your mirrors and turn your head before changing lanes, you don't need warning lights. If you keep your eyes on the road and don't text while driving, you don't need "assistance" to stay in your lane or brake for you to avoid rear-ending the guy in front of you.

I did spend $800 to install a new double-din Kenwood stereo with a nice, big display, Apple Play, and a backup camera. I went high end, but you can get a decent modern head unit for $300. Coupled with an iPhone, you've got navigation and tech that is up to date. Check out Crutchfield.

As long as it's well maintained, I'd have no issue taking your car long distance. If your car has a timing belt, make sure the somewhat costly replacement is done at the recommended interval.
dataentryspecialist
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by dataentryspecialist »

pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
The main one I “can’t live without” is rear cross traffic warning and automatic emergency braking. Small overlap frontal crash protection is also improved. Vehicle stability control is also very helpful.
JoeNJ28
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by JoeNJ28 »

A lot of amazing drivers here OP being injured for life because someone else crashed into you is not fun to save a few dollars. Consider it buying increased insurance limits. Decide what’s important an extra 30 grand at retirement or hopefully never having to play what if after an accident. People have medical accidents while driving, texting. You may be an amazing driver but you can’t control all the other cars around you.
UALflyer
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by UALflyer »

runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:48 pm If safety is even a consideration in the ownership of a vehicle, driving a clunker IMHO borders on irresponsible IF financial resources are more than adequate to upgrade to a newer vehicle.
I don't disagree with your statement, but the term "safety" has a lot of different dimension. Unfortunately, while modern "safety" technology does help with some safety issues, it also creates a number of other ones.

For instance, here's an excerpt that demonstrates some of the issues (https://www.autoblog.com/2022/02/24/hon ... tsa-probe/): "The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced this week that it opened an investigation into unexpected emergency braking incidents in two Honda models — the 2017-2019 CR-V and 2018-2019 Accord — based on hundreds of customer complaints, including cases where uncommanded braking led to collisions and injuries."

Here's another example (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auto ... SKBN2B32NH): "(Reuters) - Adaptive cruise control systems on cars, which control braking and speed, raise the risk of traffic crashes because the technology leads drivers to go faster, a U.S. study found on Thursday.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety found that drivers using adaptive cruise control (ACC) were more likely to set a target speed that was over the limit because of the perception that the system enhanced their safety.

The research concluded that drivers using the technology were at a 10% higher risk of a fatal crash compared to manual drivers due to the faster cruising speeds selected.
"

Further, how well a vehicle performs in a crash is a different question from that of how likely it is to be involved in one. The proliferation of various technology, for instance, has been blamed on increasing driver distraction, a false sense of safety, etc..., all of which make it more likely that the driver will be involved in a crash. Further, some of the reasons for vehicle accidents have to do with the design of the vehicles, which is not something that can be tested. For instance, a vehicle redesign that has increased the thickness of the b-pillars of a particular model or has otherwise sacrificed driver visibility, which is a very common issue, is something that in practical terms can make a vehicle less "safe" (in the sense that it would make it more likely that you'll be involved in an accident).

There's lots and lots of these types of considerations.
UALflyer
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by UALflyer »

LilyFleur wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:54 pm Backup camera, automatic braking to prevent rear-ending the car in front of you, warning if you are moving out of your lane, warning if you are making a lane change into another car in your blind spot, automatic placing the car into park when you turn it off, and probably more stuff since I bought my 2019 Honda Accord.
I fully support various safety tech, but you also cannot ignore situations where the technology ends up actually causing accidents, as is the case with phantom braking that so many models with automatic emergency braking suffer from. This is the reason that the NHTSA is investigating.

When seat belts became standard, they all functioned essentially the same on all vehicles, so there was no learning curve from one vehicle to another. The same is true for most of the safety tech that has been around for 20+ years. That's not even close to being true for some of the latest technology, however, which is yet another way that accidents happen. The way that a lot of the accident avoidance tech is implemented in different vehicles tends to be very different, which can mean a very steep learning curve. So, a driver gets behind the wheel of an unfamiliar vehicle, which, as part of the accident avoidance tech, suddenly starts beeping or even intervening. This tends to startle the driver, cause the driver to take his/her eyes off the road to figure out what's going on, etc... Again, this is how accidents happen.

Even if you're used to your own vehicle, some of the safety tech is implemented in such an annoying and intrusive way that drivers either start to ignore things like audible alerts or, for some of the more intrusive tech, end up turning it off. This is an exceptionally common issue for modern vehicles where well intentioned technology ends up being annoying/distracting, so a ton of people end up ignoring it or turning it off.
runswithscissors
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by runswithscissors »

UALflyer wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:05 pm
runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:48 pm If safety is even a consideration in the ownership of a vehicle, driving a clunker IMHO borders on irresponsible IF financial resources are more than adequate to upgrade to a newer vehicle.
I don't disagree with your statement, but the term "safety" has a lot of different dimension. Unfortunately, while modern "safety" technology does help with some safety issues, it also creates a number of other ones.

For instance, here's an excerpt that demonstrates some of the issues (https://www.autoblog.com/2022/02/24/hon ... tsa-probe/): "The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced this week that it opened an investigation into unexpected emergency braking incidents in two Honda models — the 2017-2019 CR-V and 2018-2019 Accord — based on hundreds of customer complaints, including cases where uncommanded braking led to collisions and injuries."

Here's another example (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-auto ... SKBN2B32NH): "(Reuters) - Adaptive cruise control systems on cars, which control braking and speed, raise the risk of traffic crashes because the technology leads drivers to go faster, a U.S. study found on Thursday.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety found that drivers using adaptive cruise control (ACC) were more likely to set a target speed that was over the limit because of the perception that the system enhanced their safety.

The research concluded that drivers using the technology were at a 10% higher risk of a fatal crash compared to manual drivers due to the faster cruising speeds selected.
"

Further, how well a vehicle performs in a crash is a different question from that of how likely it is to be involved in one. The proliferation of various technology, for instance, has been blamed on increasing driver distraction, a false sense of safety, etc..., all of which make it more likely that the driver will be involved in a crash. Further, some of the reasons for vehicle accidents have to do with the design of the vehicles, which is not something that can be tested. For instance, a vehicle redesign that has increased the thickness of the b-pillars of a particular model or has otherwise sacrificed driver visibility, which is a very common issue, is something that in practical terms can make a vehicle less "safe" (in the sense that it would make it more likely that you'll be involved in an accident).

There's lots and lots of these types of considerations.
All safety technology has its shortcomings. Even seatbelts cause deaths due to occupants being trapped in a vehicle in the case of smoke, fire or water ingress.

While it's important to highlight the risks and downsides of all new safety tech, it's also important to understand and acknowledge that the vehicles are statistically safer overall with the inclusion of this tech. Like with seatbelts, you are safer in a car that has them installed than without them installed. Same goes for all the new safety tech found in modern cars.
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TheRoundHeadedKid
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by TheRoundHeadedKid »

Keep driving your old car until the repair costs are greater than a few monthly payments on a new car. You can easily compensate for missing out on the latest safety tech by driving more defensively.
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UALflyer
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by UALflyer »

runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:57 pm While it's important to highlight the risks and downsides of all new safety tech, it's also important to understand and acknowledge that the vehicles are statistically safer overall with the inclusion of this tech.
People need to read statistics very carefully and closely, as that's not actually what the numbers are telling you.

These statistics do not control for the miles driven, driver demographics, safety equipment in the vehicles, the number of these models on the road, etc...

Let me give you an easy example showing how dangerous it is to interpret the numbers the way that they've been presented here. Suppose for a second that a '10 model of a vehicle accounts for 50 deaths during a given time period, while a '15 model of the same vehicle accounts for 75 deaths. Based on this data and nothing else, would you conclude that the '15 model is more dangerous? What if I then told you that there were 250% more '15 models on the road than the '10 models? Would you then reverse your conclusion? What if then you found out that even though there were more of these '15 models on the road, during the specified period the '10 models in the aggregate drove 500% more miles than the '15 models. Would you then reverse your conclusion again?

There's quite a few of these variables that you have to account for to come up with a somewhat meaningful conclusion about the relative safety record of each vehicle.

Further, even the term "safer" itself has a number of dimensions that are not being recognized in this discussion. For instance, your ability to avoid getting into an accident in the first place is a critically important consideration and is not one that tends to be captured by the data. The trend by modern vehicles to design their infotainment systems with lots of touchscreen menus and submenus is widely blamed for increasing driver distraction, which increases the likelihood of vehicle accidents. Yet, older vehicles with physical buttons and without complex menus and submenus mean that a selection can be made by touch and without taking your eyes off the road.

Likewise, what is "this tech" in your sentence? Plenty of 10+ year old vehicles already have the most important safety technology, such as backup cameras, electronic stability, traction control, front and side airbags, antilock brakes and parking sensors.

The latest tech, such as forward collision mitigation systems, are the ones that generate lots of complaints and investigations, as they are responsible for phantom braking, etc... The lane centering technology, where the vehicle jerks your vehicle back into the lane is widely thought to be causing way more problems than it has solved, leading drivers to turn it off.

Blindspot monitoring systems (the ones where a light comes on when there is something in your blindspot) are another example of controversial technology. If you turn your head, as you should, the fact that there's a light there is actually counterproductive, as it's something else to look at, which distracts you from the task at hand. If you don't turn your head and just rely on the light, at some point you're very likely to get in trouble: sensors fail, get dirty, etc..., so they can't be relied upon. Likewise, you'll get used to relying on the sensor, get in another car that doesn't have it and get in an accident.
bcc1234
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by bcc1234 »

jebmke, no, we didn't. The Honda dealership in the area we live in just seems to be a nicer experience vs. Toyota. I know Toyota (although a little more expensive) and Mazda make great cars also, my wife just like the folks at Honda.

bcc
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

dataentryspecialist wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:48 pm
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
The main one I “can’t live without” is rear cross traffic warning …
My 2016 Model X does not have rear cross traffic warning, and is what I will appreciate in my new 2024 Mercedes EQS. This morning, I was parked between two Suburbans at the grocery store and had to back out slowly, hoping that nobody would hit my car. There’s nothing a more limber neck or mirror adjustments would have done for me; I was reduced to depending on the kindness of others.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
cmr79
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by cmr79 »

UALflyer wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:37 am
runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:57 pm While it's important to highlight the risks and downsides of all new safety tech, it's also important to understand and acknowledge that the vehicles are statistically safer overall with the inclusion of this tech.
People need to read statistics very carefully and closely, as that's not actually what the numbers are telling you.

These statistics do not control for the miles driven, driver demographics, safety equipment in the vehicles, the number of these models on the road, etc...

Let me give you an easy example showing how dangerous it is to interpret the numbers the way that they've been presented here. Suppose for a second that a '10 model of a vehicle accounts for 50 deaths during a given time period, while a '15 model of the same vehicle accounts for 75 deaths. Based on this data and nothing else, would you conclude that the '15 model is more dangerous? What if I then told you that there were 250% more '15 models on the road than the '10 models? Would you then reverse your conclusion? What if then you found out that even though there were more of these '15 models on the road, during the specified period the '10 models in the aggregate drove 500% more miles than the '15 models. Would you then reverse your conclusion again?

There's quite a few of these variables that you have to account for to come up with a somewhat meaningful conclusion about the relative safety record of each vehicle.

Further, even the term "safer" itself has a number of dimensions that are not being recognized in this discussion. For instance, your ability to avoid getting into an accident in the first place is a critically important consideration and is not one that tends to be captured by the data. The trend by modern vehicles to design their infotainment systems with lots of touchscreen menus and submenus is widely blamed for increasing driver distraction, which increases the likelihood of vehicle accidents. Yet, older vehicles with physical buttons and without complex menus and submenus mean that a selection can be made by touch and without taking your eyes off the road.

Likewise, what is "this tech" in your sentence? Plenty of 10+ year old vehicles already have the most important safety technology, such as backup cameras, electronic stability, traction control, front and side airbags, antilock brakes and parking sensors.

The latest tech, such as forward collision mitigation systems, are the ones that generate lots of complaints and investigations, as they are responsible for phantom braking, etc... The lane centering technology, where the vehicle jerks your vehicle back into the lane is widely thought to be causing way more problems than it has solved, leading drivers to turn it off.

Blindspot monitoring systems (the ones where a light comes on when there is something in your blindspot) are another example of controversial technology. If you turn your head, as you should, the fact that there's a light there is actually counterproductive, as it's something else to look at, which distracts you from the task at hand. If you don't turn your head and just rely on the light, at some point you're very likely to get in trouble: sensors fail, get dirty, etc..., so they can't be relied upon. Likewise, you'll get used to relying on the sensor, get in another car that doesn't have it and get in an accident.
I agree with many of the specific points that you made, but most of the US traffic safety data that I am familiar with normalizes deaths and injuries per 100,000,000 passenger miles and normalizes accident rates and non-passenger injuries/deaths/damages per million vehicle-miles.

There is no perfect data, of course, and any data can be used in blatantly wrong or merely misleading ways. There is pretty good, well standardized data out there for this topic, though.
UALflyer
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by UALflyer »

cmr79 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:44 am I agree with many of the specific points that you made, but most of the US traffic safety data that I am familiar with normalizes deaths and injuries per 100,000,000 passenger miles and normalizes accident rates and non-passenger injuries/deaths/damages per million vehicle-miles.

There is no perfect data, of course, and any data can be used in blatantly wrong or merely misleading ways. There is pretty good, well standardized data out there for this topic, though.
That's a good point, thank you. A lot of traffic safety data that appears in various press releases only reports raw data without accounting for the miles traveled. I've then seen it posted in various BH threads, which doesn't tell you a whole lot. To the extent that the data above is, in fact, normalized for vehicles-miles, then it is helpful, although it is still obviously subject to most of the above concerns with the latest safety features and the fact that the most important safety features that aren't nearly as controversial have been around for quite a while.
DetroitRick
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by DetroitRick »

We're also trying to make this decision right now. Likewise, I also don't consider it an emergency and can swing the price if I need to. We're mainly looking at Highlander (vs. your Grand) and 4Runner. The biggest factor in my indecision now is lack of inventory, and the resulting higher prices. I can't touch a Highlander here for much under $50k (AWD versions, XLE trim) out the door. Grand Highlanders here are closer to $60k. Although I am starting to see slight discounts off of MSRP (usual $1k to $3k). Typical inventory for Grand Highlander and Highlander, here, each are 0 to 3. Not ideal for bargain hunting. These things are just plain expensive now, in my opinion, compared to my last buying exercise a few short years ago.

The tough part is near-term maintenance costs for us too (like you, a couple of high-ticket items looming), versus hassle, versus lack of inventory to buy. My preference on this car line is to buy new, but to each their own. I tend to keep vehicles for a while. This is my path of least resistance.

So, pricing reflects these low inventories and limited selection. I can't guess whether that will change this year or not. As I wait. I don't think either decision is foolish.

You might also weigh current vs. future resale. In my case, it is small enough to barely be relevant. But if current resale for you is strong, maybe that might be your incentive.

Like you, I have another new vehicle and we can get by on it temporarily if need be. I see all the statistics on safety features. Fine. But I drive both (my current 2004 Highlander is still not a Model A...) and frankly don't think about it. I like the new features, but it doesn't push me in either direction. I don't live life by statistics. Now, if they design safety features that disable the cars of idiots, that I might jump at.

Anyway, good luck with your decision. In my case, I'm still not sure. I'm getting dangerously close to flipping a coin.
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queso
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by queso »

We're in the same boat with my 19 year old Pilot and decided to keep it running for a bit longer so we replaced the failed AC compressor and just put new tires on it last week. It has under 90k miles since it doesn't get driven much, but it has gotten to the point where it develops at least an issue or two a year over the past couple years. Some of them I fix myself (alternator, water leak, serpentine belt) and some of them I don't depending on my available time and the level of effort involved. If I were to replace it I would get a crew cab 3/4 ton pickup capable of hauling a gooseneck horse trailer and the last time I priced those out I went running for cover.
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LilyFleur
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by LilyFleur »

UALflyer wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:13 pm
LilyFleur wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:54 pm Backup camera, automatic braking to prevent rear-ending the car in front of you, warning if you are moving out of your lane, warning if you are making a lane change into another car in your blind spot, automatic placing the car into park when you turn it off, and probably more stuff since I bought my 2019 Honda Accord.
I fully support various safety tech, but you also cannot ignore situations where the technology ends up actually causing accidents, as is the case with phantom braking that so many models with automatic emergency braking suffer from. This is the reason that the NHTSA is investigating.

When seat belts became standard, they all functioned essentially the same on all vehicles, so there was no learning curve from one vehicle to another. The same is true for most of the safety tech that has been around for 20+ years. That's not even close to being true for some of the latest technology, however, which is yet another way that accidents happen. The way that a lot of the accident avoidance tech is implemented in different vehicles tends to be very different, which can mean a very steep learning curve. So, a driver gets behind the wheel of an unfamiliar vehicle, which, as part of the accident avoidance tech, suddenly starts beeping or even intervening. This tends to startle the driver, cause the driver to take his/her eyes off the road to figure out what's going on, etc... Again, this is how accidents happen.

Even if you're used to your own vehicle, some of the safety tech is implemented in such an annoying and intrusive way that drivers either start to ignore things like audible alerts or, for some of the more intrusive tech, end up turning it off. This is an exceptionally common issue for modern vehicles where well intentioned technology ends up being annoying/distracting, so a ton of people end up ignoring it or turning it off.
Or, you have people in older vehicles driving and possibly texting without the benefit of a driver's license that rear-end other people at high speed. It happened to me. It would have been nice if their vehicle would have stopped (or even slowed) instead of causing an accident that totaled my car and damaged me.

Safety technology is just one part of the equation. You still have a person behind the wheel, deciding whether or not to focus on traffic, deciding whether or not to use the safety technology. I am only responsible to use the safety technology in my own car. I cannot control whether others use the technology in their own vehicles.

An unfamiliar interface is difficult, especially as we age. It's one of the reasons I have tried to stick with Hondas. The basic interface is the same, so when they add something, I can learn it more easily than if I were trying to learn everything in a vehicle from another company. The Tesla is beautiful and sleek, but it would be like driving and running a laptop computer at the same time, at least for me.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by familythriftmd »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm ... new 3 row SUV with leather ... Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
Maybe I missed it, but you didn't say why you need a 3-row SUV, and why leather?
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by runswithscissors »

UALflyer wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:37 am
runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:57 pm While it's important to highlight the risks and downsides of all new safety tech, it's also important to understand and acknowledge that the vehicles are statistically safer overall with the inclusion of this tech.
People need to read statistics very carefully and closely, as that's not actually what the numbers are telling you.

These statistics do not control for the miles driven, driver demographics, safety equipment in the vehicles, the number of these models on the road, etc...

Let me give you an easy example showing how dangerous it is to interpret the numbers the way that they've been presented here. Suppose for a second that a '10 model of a vehicle accounts for 50 deaths during a given time period, while a '15 model of the same vehicle accounts for 75 deaths. Based on this data and nothing else, would you conclude that the '15 model is more dangerous? What if I then told you that there were 250% more '15 models on the road than the '10 models? Would you then reverse your conclusion? What if then you found out that even though there were more of these '15 models on the road, during the specified period the '10 models in the aggregate drove 500% more miles than the '15 models. Would you then reverse your conclusion again?

There's quite a few of these variables that you have to account for to come up with a somewhat meaningful conclusion about the relative safety record of each vehicle.

Further, even the term "safer" itself has a number of dimensions that are not being recognized in this discussion. For instance, your ability to avoid getting into an accident in the first place is a critically important consideration and is not one that tends to be captured by the data. The trend by modern vehicles to design their infotainment systems with lots of touchscreen menus and submenus is widely blamed for increasing driver distraction, which increases the likelihood of vehicle accidents. Yet, older vehicles with physical buttons and without complex menus and submenus mean that a selection can be made by touch and without taking your eyes off the road.

Likewise, what is "this tech" in your sentence? Plenty of 10+ year old vehicles already have the most important safety technology, such as backup cameras, electronic stability, traction control, front and side airbags, antilock brakes and parking sensors.

The latest tech, such as forward collision mitigation systems, are the ones that generate lots of complaints and investigations, as they are responsible for phantom braking, etc... The lane centering technology, where the vehicle jerks your vehicle back into the lane is widely thought to be causing way more problems than it has solved, leading drivers to turn it off.

Blindspot monitoring systems (the ones where a light comes on when there is something in your blindspot) are another example of controversial technology. If you turn your head, as you should, the fact that there's a light there is actually counterproductive, as it's something else to look at, which distracts you from the task at hand. If you don't turn your head and just rely on the light, at some point you're very likely to get in trouble: sensors fail, get dirty, etc..., so they can't be relied upon. Likewise, you'll get used to relying on the sensor, get in another car that doesn't have it and get in an accident.
There are certainly studies out there that don't take into account variables that can often sway the outcome of a study either way. But I generally trust data and the subsequent studies the NHTSA produces. Their only agenda is to make the roads safer for everyone.

As noted in this article from Consumer Reports, they did take into account variables that not only include miles driven (all NHTSA data takes this into account) but other variables that can affect the outcome of the study.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/new ... /index.htm

The study authors adjusted for the effects of numerous variables, such as driver age, blood alcohol content, time of day, speeding, type of road, and so forth

I thought this quote from the article was sobering...


It's always reassuring when scientists prove the obvious, in this case that a brand-new car is safer than an old rust-bucket. But what's not obvious at all, in this case, is how much more extra risk you take on with older-generation cars. It turns out that a driver of a car 18 or more years old is 71 percent more likely to die in a bad crash than the driver of a car three years old or newer. That's pretty sobering—especially for parents looking to put their newly-minted teenage driver in an affordable used car.

Keep in mind this article is old. The NHTSA has a more recent study depicting a continuation of improvement of survivability in a crash. So not only are newer cars safer than older cars. Brand new cars will always be safer than cars just 3-5 years old.

I was unaware of any controversy regarding the blind spot monitoring feature. While I don't rely on it, I can see others use it to determine if they have comfortable and sufficient merging space to switch lanes. Not everyone has the same confidence in their depth perception. I could see this being a very helpful feature for certain elderly drivers or anyone that gets a bit anxious when driving. What may be considered distracting or useless to one could be a major anxiety reducer for another. We're all different. I think there is nothing wrong with safety technology that's geared towards "the little guy". Hopefully we see more of the same in future vehicles.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

runswithscissors wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:36 pm I was unaware of any controversy regarding the blind spot monitoring feature. While I don't rely on it, I can see others use it to determine if they have comfortable and sufficient merging space to switch lanes. Not everyone has the same confidence in their depth perception. I could see this being a very helpful feature for certain elderly drivers or anyone that gets a bit anxious when driving. What may be considered distracting or useless to one could be a major anxiety reducer for another. We're all different. I think there is nothing wrong with safety technology that's geared towards "the little guy". Hopefully we see more of the same in future vehicles.
I'm an "older" driver. I sometimes drive my wife's car that has the blind spot light in the side mirror. To me, this is not as distracting as the busyness of the dashboard. At one point I think there was some sort of heads up display that was also distracting but it seems to have disappeared. Maybe a software update killed it off.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by ThankYouJack »

familythriftmd wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:02 pm
ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm ... new 3 row SUV with leather ... Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
Maybe I missed it, but you didn't say why you need a 3-row SUV, and why leather?
For the SUV part, sometimes I haul a lot of people or stuff. Would prefer leather (or fake leather) for the ease of cleaning and feel over cloth.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by kd2008 »

OP, I would start with annual miles driven and typical duration of trip. If less than 5000 miles annually and less than 20 minutes of trip duration, then you don't need a new car per se, but want one. Want is subjective. No point in rationalizing or justifying why the purchase makes sense.

Can you substitute some trips with rideshare apps and delay purchase decision by not using your old car so much?

Think outside the box. Instead of car purchase, think how you can accomplish meeting your transportation needs. Rideshare like Uber, Lyft can be helpful in some situations not all. Day car rentals can also help out. People are so used to parking their $50K purchase for 23 hours a day. I find it incredulous.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by SmileyFace »

To replace something that is 15 years old with 200,000 miles I would normally say ABSOLUTELY. I also always found paying a few extra dollars for a new car over a used car well worth the price (car brands I bought always retained high resale values so the savings of new versus a couple of years used were always minimal - sometimes actually more believe it or not).
BUT these days, personally, I have a lot of trouble thinking about paying MSRP (or higher) - with all my prior new car purchases I was always able to pay invoice price or close to it (last new car purchase was 2019 - just before the crazy days started). It's a tougher call right now.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by UALflyer »

runswithscissors wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:36 pm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/new ... /index.htm

The study authors adjusted for the effects of numerous variables, such as driver age, blood alcohol content, time of day, speeding, type of road, and so forth

I thought this quote from the article was sobering...


It's always reassuring when scientists prove the obvious, in this case that a brand-new car is safer than an old rust-bucket. But what's not obvious at all, in this case, is how much more extra risk you take on with older-generation cars. It turns out that a driver of a car 18 or more years old is 71 percent more likely to die in a bad crash than the driver of a car three years old or newer. That's pretty sobering—especially for parents looking to put their newly-minted teenage driver in an affordable used car.

Keep in mind this article is old.
Yes, the article is from 2013, and is comparing cars older than 1995 to the ones from 2010+. Their conclusions are not at all surprising, as the key safety technology that I mentioned above was not at all common back in 1995. You simply cannot extrapolate the article's conclusions to today's situation, as a 2010 model will frequently have an overwhelming majority of the safety features found in 2024.
The NHTSA has a more recent study depicting a continuation of improvement of survivability in a crash. So not only are newer cars safer than older cars. Brand new cars will always be safer than cars just 3-5 years old.
As I mentioned above, the term "safer" is more complex than the way that you're using it. You're using the term solely to talk about survivability in a crash. You are, however, ignoring the driver's ability to avoid the crash altogether.

I've already mentioned some of the considerations that go into each one, which is the reason that this is such a complex topic. For instance, AEB (automatic emergency braking) can lessen the severity of a crash. In this sense, it makes the vehicle "safer." On the other hand, if AEB triggers phantom braking and causes a crash, which is the exact behavior that NHTSA has been investigating, then it makes the vehicle less "safe."

Likewise, if you have a blind spot monitoring system (the light that comes on that warns you than there is something in your blind spot), start to rely on it so much than you stop turning your head, then get in a vehicle without it and hit a car in your blind spot, did the blind spot monitoring system in your car make you a safer or a less safe driver?

If you get a brand new vehicle, which has touchscreen menus and submenus, which cause you to take your eyes off the road to adjust your music or a/c, and, as a result, you get in an accident, was the car "safer?"

Even in terms of the survivability in a crash, as I mentioned earlier, plenty of 10+ year old vehicles already have the most important safety technology, such as backup cameras, electronic stability, traction control, front and side airbags, antilock brakes and parking sensors. What you're generally picking up in a brand new vehicle is AEB and blind spot monitoring: whether these features make the vehicle "safer" or not is going to be the subject of a lot of disagreement.

Personally, I love adaptive cruise control, but also think that referring to it as a "safety feature" is generally crazy. During long drives, it does reduce driver fatigue, but it also causes you to pay less attention to the road.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by familythriftmd »

ThankYouJack wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:47 pm
familythriftmd wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:02 pm
ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm ... new 3 row SUV with leather ... Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
Maybe I missed it, but you didn't say why you need a 3-row SUV, and why leather?
For the SUV part, sometimes I haul a lot of people or stuff. Would prefer leather (or fake leather) for the ease of cleaning and feel over cloth.
OK, thanks. The reason I asked is because vans are better at hauling people comfortably and tend to cost less.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by familythriftmd »

Oh and by the way, you're talking about a secondary vehicle, so the need to haul people would be secondary importance if you already have a big people-mover.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by runswithscissors »

UALflyer wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:14 pm
runswithscissors wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:36 pm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/new ... /index.htm

The study authors adjusted for the effects of numerous variables, such as driver age, blood alcohol content, time of day, speeding, type of road, and so forth

I thought this quote from the article was sobering...


It's always reassuring when scientists prove the obvious, in this case that a brand-new car is safer than an old rust-bucket. But what's not obvious at all, in this case, is how much more extra risk you take on with older-generation cars. It turns out that a driver of a car 18 or more years old is 71 percent more likely to die in a bad crash than the driver of a car three years old or newer. That's pretty sobering—especially for parents looking to put their newly-minted teenage driver in an affordable used car.

Keep in mind this article is old.
Yes, the article is from 2013, and is comparing cars older than 1995 to the ones from 2010+. Their conclusions are not at all surprising, as the key safety technology that I mentioned above was not at all common back in 1995. You simply cannot extrapolate the article's conclusions to today's situation, as a 2010 model will frequently have an overwhelming majority of the safety features found in 2024.
The NHTSA has a more recent study depicting a continuation of improvement of survivability in a crash. So not only are newer cars safer than older cars. Brand new cars will always be safer than cars just 3-5 years old.
As I mentioned above, the term "safer" is more complex than the way that you're using it. You're using the term solely to talk about survivability in a crash. You are, however, ignoring the driver's ability to avoid the crash altogether.

I've already mentioned some of the considerations that go into each one, which is the reason that this is such a complex topic. For instance, AEB (automatic emergency braking) can lessen the severity of a crash. In this sense, it makes the vehicle "safer." On the other hand, if AEB triggers phantom braking and causes a crash, which is the exact behavior that NHTSA has been investigating, then it makes the vehicle less "safe."

Likewise, if you have a blind spot monitoring system (the light that comes on that warns you than there is something in your blind spot), start to rely on it so much than you stop turning your head, then get in a vehicle without it and hit a car in your blind spot, did the blind spot monitoring system in your car make you a safer or a less safe driver?

If you get a brand new vehicle, which has touchscreen menus and submenus, which cause you to take your eyes off the road to adjust your music or a/c, and, as a result, you get in an accident, was the car "safer?"

Even in terms of the survivability in a crash, as I mentioned earlier, plenty of 10+ year old vehicles already have the most important safety technology, such as backup cameras, electronic stability, traction control, front and side airbags, antilock brakes and parking sensors. What you're generally picking up in a brand new vehicle is AEB and blind spot monitoring: whether these features make the vehicle "safer" or not is going to be the subject of a lot of disagreement.

Personally, I love adaptive cruise control, but also think that referring to it as a "safety feature" is generally crazy. During long drives, it does reduce driver fatigue, but it also causes you to pay less attention to the road.
As I noted earlier, all safety technology has a downside and presents new risks that were not associated with the vehicle before the tech was implemented.

Your example of phantom braking is a great example of technology that can be more damaging than helpful. However , for every phantom braking incident that ended up in a collision, it's possible there could be 10-100X braking activations that prevented an accident. Of course I'm guessing these numbers. The NHTSA has all the data to decide whether or not the implementation of the tech has a favorable outcome overall. I'm guessing there is a ratio of accident prevention to tech failure that NHTSA uses to determine if a certain tech should be implemented or encouraged by automanufacturers.

In many regards the NHTSA is very conservative about allowing certain new technology in vehicles. For example, it's still not legal to have monitor - based only side view mirrors. You can use supplemental video for them but not solely. Most other countries allow the complete removal of side view mirrors and some cars sold in other counties have vehicles completely absent of them for a good number of years now. Would I advocate for the removal of side view mirrors? Not personally but this isn't my call. Removing side view mirrors presents a plethora of advantagss including lower cost, reduced drag, better fuel economy, quieter, less vibration, no glare, better and wider viewing plane, less insurance claims and damage repair costs, etc. At some point side view mirrors will probably disappear but the NHTSA is not even allowing them in vehicles yet because there are a small handful of real technical downsides including camera view potentially blocked by snow, mud grime. But the real push back would come from drivers being uncomfortable with the change. They may not adapt to the new tech and this could result in an increase of accidents for this minority group.

All technology requires some learning curves and adjustments from the general public. You can't reliably enhance safety and efficiency without some changes.

I will agree that the elimination of buttons and knobs is a terrible trend that I believe is finally starting to die off. My DW drives a Tesla and I can't stand interacting with a huge touch screen for things I used buttons and knobs for before. It's inefficient and dangerous. Having to take your eyes off the road to do simple tasks like adjusting ac vent speed should be illegal. And quite frankly I'm surprised NHTSA doesn't require that certain controls be accessed by buttons and or knobs. They already require it for window defroster and hazard lights. Sure, let people also access it from their huge touch screen but don't force people to be relegated to only this control method. It's important to note that moving to touchscreens was not a safety technology move. It is what consumers want because they are shiny and pretty and fancy looking. Designing cars for the majority of consumer wants does not mean better cars overall.

So in certain respects you're preaching to the choir. But I provided a list of 27 (it's actually 26 because I double posted one) examples of real safety tech that does indeed make a vehicle safer. Much of it has been introduced in the last 10 years. But there is tried and true tech like seat belts and airbags that are constantly being improved. Air bags suites today are very different from those in cars 10 years ago. To say oh my car is just as good because I have airbags too. When a new car might have 10 of them vs 2 in your car.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by wander »

I am driving an old car (300k+ miles) because it is one of the best cars over speed bumps and potholes.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

runswithscissors wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:17 pm Having to take your eyes off the road to do simple tasks like adjusting ac vent speed should be illegal.
If it bothers you that much, use voice commands.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by runswithscissors »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 6:13 pm
runswithscissors wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:17 pm Having to take your eyes off the road to do simple tasks like adjusting ac vent speed should be illegal.
If it bothers you that much, use voice commands.
It's more so an issue to me because it makes the roads more dangerous purely to achieve a more minimalist interior. Countless studies show all-touchscreen interfaces are more distracting and dangerous than those with a combination of buttons/knobs for commonly used controls and a touchscreen. I also don't think talking to your car to do things I can do mindlessly in a second with a flick of a finger is any better. On the contrary, it's far worse.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by tibbitts »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 6:13 pm
runswithscissors wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:17 pm Having to take your eyes off the road to do simple tasks like adjusting ac vent speed should be illegal.
If it bothers you that much, use voice commands.
As a practical matter, you're often driving a rental car you're unfamiliar with, so it's extremely important that controls be intuitive and familiar.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Fat Tails »

From what I have seen, the new (2023j 4runners are just like the old 4runners. (Not positive about the 2024 models though). I love them by the way. It if were me I’d look for a 2 year old 4runner with 20k or less mikes.

Cheers.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by tibbitts »

Fat Tails wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:31 pm From what I have seen, the new (2023j 4runners are just like the old 4runners. (Not positive about the 2024 models though). I love them by the way. It if were me I’d look for a 2 year old 4runner with 20k or less mikes.

Cheers.
Why, given that the two-year-old with 20k miles will probably cost virtually as much as a new one? I believe the 10+yr-old design is due for replacement in another year(?)
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Fat Tails »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:57 pm
Fat Tails wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:31 pm From what I have seen, the new (2023j 4runners are just like the old 4runners. (Not positive about the 2024 models though). I love them by the way. It if were me I’d look for a 2 year old 4runner with 20k or less mikes.

Cheers.
Why, given that the two-year-old with 20k miles will probably cost virtually as much as a new one? I believe the 10+yr-old design is due for replacement in another year(?)
Yes, if the price is the same, then buy the new one. Here are Kelley Blue Book estimates:

Kelley Blue Book 2022 4runner TRD Premium $39,101
Kelley Blue Book 2024 TRD Premium $50,718
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Claudia Whitten »

pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
Exactly. A friend of mine has a brand new Tesla. It's fun to drive and has all the new "safety features," but guess what? My 2005 Camry has a better ride, still runs great, and also has amazing safety features, most notably a careful driver.

I note that none of the safety features of my friend's Tesla can protect her from other crazy drivers. Not yet anyway. Maybe in a software update? :wink:

That said, if I were the OP with a 200K car looking at expensive repairs and I wanted peace of mind for long trips, I'd be looking to buy a new car. New, not used, as I keep my vehicles a long time.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Calhoon »

If it were me I would keep running the existing car but there obviously will be a point where the costs and repairs wouldn't make sense anymore. Though I generally do the vast majority of my own automotive repairs, which reduces those costs significantly.

As for trips if you're only doing one or two a year, you could rent a car for the week. If you get a reasonable deal on a rental car, the costs should be fairly close. People get trapped into thinking that if you use your own car the trip is somehow magically free (minus fuel costs) when of course that's not the case. Plus, with a rental if things should go south you can call and tell them to get you a new car. Play with the irs personal vehicle write-off numbers once.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

TheRoundHeadedKid wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:09 pm Keep driving your old car until the repair costs are greater than a few monthly payments on a new car. You can easily compensate for missing out on the latest safety tech by driving more defensively.
Driving defensively is all well and good. It is difficult, sometimes impossible, to compensate for the foolishness/carelessness of some drivers.

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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by UALflyer »

runswithscissors wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:17 pm Air bags suites today are very different from those in cars 10 years ago. To say oh my car is just as good because I have airbags too. When a new car might have 10 of them vs 2 in your car.
If you're comparing it to a 1995 model, sure. Not if you're comparing it to something like a 2010, which is the point that I've been making in this thread.

Here's a link to a description of standard safety features in a 2010 Toyota Camry (https://pressroom.toyota.com/camry-gain ... -for-2010/): "Dual-stage advanced SRS front airbags, seat-mounted side airbags, side curtain airbags and a driver’s knee airbag are standard on all Camry models."

Likewise, "All 2010 Camry models come equipped with a standard anti-lock brake system (ABS), Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) and Brake Assist (BA)... Standard Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) with traction control (TRAC) regulates engine output and brake application on individual wheels to help control loss of traction in turns."

Of the list that you've posted above, which appears to be from Tesla, the technology that a 2010 model generally wouldn't have is AEB (automatic emergency braking), blindspot monitoring (the light that comes on to show that there is something in your blindspot), lane keeping assist (the vehicle is jerked back into the lane) and "audible warning of upcoming hazards." These are all fairly controversial features, and are routinely turned off/disabled by plenty of drivers.

There are other things that Tesla (assuming that this is where your list came from) lists as "safety features" but aren't. As I mentioned above, I love adaptive cruise control, but arguing that it is a safety feature is a significant stretch. I also love a surround view camera, but while it makes parking in tight spots much easier, it's not a safety feature. Rear cross traffic alert is great and very useful, but it only mitigates against minor accidents (doesn't make it useless; it's just not something that has anything to do with injury or death).

Mentioning "regular software updates and bug fixes" among "safety features" is rather amusing.

I do otherwise agree with everything else in the post that I've quoted here.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by tibbitts »

Fat Tails wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:06 am
tibbitts wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:57 pm
Fat Tails wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:31 pm From what I have seen, the new (2023j 4runners are just like the old 4runners. (Not positive about the 2024 models though). I love them by the way. It if were me I’d look for a 2 year old 4runner with 20k or less mikes.

Cheers.
Why, given that the two-year-old with 20k miles will probably cost virtually as much as a new one? I believe the 10+yr-old design is due for replacement in another year(?)
Yes, if the price is the same, then buy the new one. Here are Kelley Blue Book estimates:

Kelley Blue Book 2022 4runner TRD Premium $39,101
Kelley Blue Book 2024 TRD Premium $50,718
I'm surprised there isn't more difference, just based on other Toyota models I've looked at.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by just frank »

Ah, another car safety thread....

I'm on team 'New cars are safer'. Not that we need to replace all our cars every two years, but it would give me nudge retiring older vehicles esp if I drove a medium or large amount of miles.

Lot's of talk here about blind spot and backup sensors and automatic braking. OK. My new car has all these. The automatic braking is great, no false alarms.

Some talk about how big A pillars or headsup displays can cause accidents. OK. I swivel my head a bit to look around the A pillar when I need to. I turn the dash brightness down when driving at night so it doesn't distract me.

Some talk about how none of this protects you from other drivers. Um, no. The FRAME of modern vehicles is much better engineered for energy absorption and crash worthiness in a variety of scenarios. And you can't see it. Maybe it gets a better grade in new some crash test, maybe it doesn't.

The big advancement in the last 10 years is that the makers can now accurately computer simulate crashes, which is MUCH cheaper and more informative than crash testing. And they have refined their designs and strategically placed materials in certain areas for much better cabin integrity.

I would much rather be in a crash in my 2022 Bolt EV than a 2010 Camry. No comparison.

The other thing... get good tires, and replace them when they are worn. All the automatic braking and stability control is useless if your have poor tires than lose grip.
sureshoe
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by sureshoe »

UALflyer wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:13 pm
LilyFleur wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:54 pm Backup camera, automatic braking to prevent rear-ending the car in front of you, warning if you are moving out of your lane, warning if you are making a lane change into another car in your blind spot, automatic placing the car into park when you turn it off, and probably more stuff since I bought my 2019 Honda Accord.
I fully support various safety tech, but you also cannot ignore situations where the technology ends up actually causing accidents, as is the case with phantom braking that so many models with automatic emergency braking suffer from. This is the reason that the NHTSA is investigating.

When seat belts became standard, they all functioned essentially the same on all vehicles, so there was no learning curve from one vehicle to another. The same is true for most of the safety tech that has been around for 20+ years. That's not even close to being true for some of the latest technology, however, which is yet another way that accidents happen. The way that a lot of the accident avoidance tech is implemented in different vehicles tends to be very different, which can mean a very steep learning curve. So, a driver gets behind the wheel of an unfamiliar vehicle, which, as part of the accident avoidance tech, suddenly starts beeping or even intervening. This tends to startle the driver, cause the driver to take his/her eyes off the road to figure out what's going on, etc... Again, this is how accidents happen.

Even if you're used to your own vehicle, some of the safety tech is implemented in such an annoying and intrusive way that drivers either start to ignore things like audible alerts or, for some of the more intrusive tech, end up turning it off. This is an exceptionally common issue for modern vehicles where well intentioned technology ends up being annoying/distracting, so a ton of people end up ignoring it or turning it off.
A common problem with new safety features, electric cars, etc. is that people make similar arguments that you're making. It's the Availability Heuristic.

This can be applied to seat belts, air bags, vaccines, whatever. Something might save 10 lives, but if it costs 1 life, people use that as the reason to disqualify it.

I was actually surprised about the efficacy of new car safety features, but at this point, the data is pretty indisputable. Having written that, I do find that people often use that as excuse rather than a valid reason to upgrade a car.
Dregob
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Dregob »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm My family has a new car, but our other car is over 15 years old with 200k miles. Great car, but none of the new safety features and tech, it's due for some pricey maintenance and I don't want to break down especially if I take it on trips.

But I'm in this analysis paralysis with getting something new(er):

1) Financially I'm getting close to FI but don't plan to retire anytime soon, so I could spend a lot on a new car without it having much of an impact.
2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and beat up a bit (it will be for loading gear and kids and on some adventure trips)
3) Many used cars (especially Toyotas) don't seem worth the high price. I think I'd rather buy new than just save a little on used. And shopping for and buying a used car can be time consuming.

So a couple questions:

1) Would you definitely get something newer in my shoes?
2) Would you go brand new, a few years old or even older?
3) What would you look for (year model mileage)? Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
My in town car is an 2008 Altima with relatively low mileage but I rent a car for long road trips. For ~$300 it is a bargain to put 1600 miles on someone else's car.
H-Town
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by H-Town »

just frank wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:09 pm Ah, another car safety thread....

I'm on team 'New cars are safer'. Not that we need to replace all our cars every two years, but it would give me nudge retiring older vehicles esp if I drove a medium or large amount of miles.

Lot's of talk here about blind spot and backup sensors and automatic braking. OK. My new car has all these. The automatic braking is great, no false alarms.

Some talk about how big A pillars or headsup displays can cause accidents. OK. I swivel my head a bit to look around the A pillar when I need to. I turn the dash brightness down when driving at night so it doesn't distract me.

Some talk about how none of this protects you from other drivers. Um, no. The FRAME of modern vehicles is much better engineered for energy absorption and crash worthiness in a variety of scenarios. And you can't see it. Maybe it gets a better grade in new some crash test, maybe it doesn't.

The big advancement in the last 10 years is that the makers can now accurately computer simulate crashes, which is MUCH cheaper and more informative than crash testing. And they have refined their designs and strategically placed materials in certain areas for much better cabin integrity.

I would much rather be in a crash in my 2022 Bolt EV than a 2010 Camry. No comparison.

The other thing... get good tires, and replace them when they are worn. All the automatic braking and stability control is useless if your have poor tires than lose grip.
You forgot the most important factor: how much do you drive? I don't care if you drive in a 2024 Maybach or 2010 Camry, if it's on the road a few hours a week, you will greatly reduce the risk.

Look at what the OP said. It's the second vehicle, and the OP drives less than 5,000 miles a year.

I work from home and I barely reach 3,000 a year on my 2012 car. So why on earth would I buy a new car and let it sit on the driveway?
Time is the ultimate currency.
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familythriftmd
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by familythriftmd »

Claudia Whitten wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:18 am
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
Exactly. A friend of mine has a brand new Tesla. It's fun to drive and has all the new "safety features," but guess what? My 2005 Camry has a better ride, still runs great, and also has amazing safety features, most notably a careful driver.

I note that none of the safety features of my friend's Tesla can protect her from other crazy drivers. Not yet anyway. Maybe in a software update? :wink:

That said, if I were the OP with a 200K car looking at expensive repairs and I wanted peace of mind for long trips, I'd be looking to buy a new car. New, not used, as I keep my vehicles a long time.
I would think that one BIG safety advantage of the 2005 Camry over the new Tesla is no distracting screen!
H-Town
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by H-Town »

familythriftmd wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:29 pm
Claudia Whitten wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:18 am
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
Exactly. A friend of mine has a brand new Tesla. It's fun to drive and has all the new "safety features," but guess what? My 2005 Camry has a better ride, still runs great, and also has amazing safety features, most notably a careful driver.

I note that none of the safety features of my friend's Tesla can protect her from other crazy drivers. Not yet anyway. Maybe in a software update? :wink:

That said, if I were the OP with a 200K car looking at expensive repairs and I wanted peace of mind for long trips, I'd be looking to buy a new car. New, not used, as I keep my vehicles a long time.
I would think that one BIG safety advantage of the 2005 Camry over the new Tesla is no distracting screen!
Don't all modern new car models have distracting screen?

My 2012 car doesn't even have a screen :oops: well, it has a small screen...

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Makefile
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Makefile »

warner25 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm On the other hand, I notice that the number of car crash fatalities (and, I assume, injuries) in the US has not diminished in recent years. The rate of fatalities, by miles traveled and population, was actually higher in 2021 than it was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year). I'm not sure what to make of that, but maybe it means that we're not actually missing out on much with our 15 year-old cars.
I believe much of that increase is pedestrians and related to light trucks continuing to get bigger and higher off the ground. You certainly notice that in a parking garage nowadays.

I am also skeptical of the necessity of some (not all) of these features because of the phenomenon of risk compensation. As the car increasingly has automatic everything, the driver gets more and more reckless, canceling out the safety benefit. One example of that is the CHSML (the third, big, higher brake light). It showed a safety benefit when piloted, but when made mandatory it evaporated. Someone else here pointed out that it was first tested on police cars and that accounts for the results.
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