Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

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just frank
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by just frank »

michaeljc70 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:05 am
just frank wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:02 am I think the OP can due a simple payback calculation based upon EPA mileage for hybrid versus conventional of the same/similar model.

That payback calculation will be sufficiently accurate IMO.

The OP is also an excellent candidate for a plug in hybrid, or PHEV, if electricity costs are reasonable where they live. That is, outside of New England and California.

OP can compute the cost per mile on kWh versus on gasoline. Rather than the 15-20% savings in gas between an ICE and an HEV, they might realize a 40-50% or greater savings.

For example: My 2015 Volt goes about 30 miles on 10 kWh of electricity, which is $0.18/kWh in my area (the national average price). That is $1.80/30 = $0.06/mile. Compared to a similarly sized car (a 2015 Corolla) getting 30 mpg, and gas costing $3.40/gal, that is $0.11/mile.

5 cents per mile savings is $500/year if you drive 10k miles electric (and 1k miles on gas on longer trips).
I would consider city vs. highway miles rather than total miles driven per year. The hybrids perform much better (in terms of MPG advantage) in the city and that can tip the calculation one way or the other. I don't drive a lot but 80% of my miles are city.
Agree. PHEVs, like HEVs, will do well in suburban driving. That is why I used 30 mpg for the Corolla example, its city mileage is 28 mpg.
dsmclone
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by dsmclone »

The whole "I hate having to fill up every 350 miles" bogles my mind. That's usually 5 hours of driving and it's too much to pull over for 10 minutes to fill up? How many miles do you drive on one of these trips? Even if you drive 1000 miles(14 hours) and have to fill up 3 times in 14 hours, compared to twice, is that 10 minutes spread over 14 hours really that important? Also, how often do you perform these 1000 mile a day trips?

Also, how do you go 14 hours without visiting a bathroom? Or do I not want to know this?
cmr79
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by cmr79 »

dsmclone wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:55 am The whole "I hate having to fill up every 350 miles" bogles my mind. That's usually 5 hours of driving and it's too much to pull over for 10 minutes to fill up? How many miles do you drive on one of these trips? Even if you drive 1000 miles(14 hours) and have to fill up 3 times in 14 hours, compared to twice, is that 10 minutes spread over 14 hours really that important? Also, how often do you perform these 1000 mile a day trips?

Also, how do you go 14 hours without visiting a bathroom? Or do I not want to know this?
I agree with this sentiment. I've started to interpret statements like this--wanting to avoid the gas station, or wanting to avoid charging an EV--as being more symbolic of wanting more freedom and not wanting to be limited more than "necessary" by the vehicle's range. In the US in particular, there is a long history of marketing fomenting a "yearning to hit the open road"...I'm guessing that has something to do with it.
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just frank
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by just frank »

cmr79 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:08 am
dsmclone wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:55 am The whole "I hate having to fill up every 350 miles" bogles my mind. That's usually 5 hours of driving and it's too much to pull over for 10 minutes to fill up? How many miles do you drive on one of these trips? Even if you drive 1000 miles(14 hours) and have to fill up 3 times in 14 hours, compared to twice, is that 10 minutes spread over 14 hours really that important? Also, how often do you perform these 1000 mile a day trips?

Also, how do you go 14 hours without visiting a bathroom? Or do I not want to know this?
I agree with this sentiment. I've started to interpret statements like this--wanting to avoid the gas station, or wanting to avoid charging an EV--as being more symbolic of wanting more freedom and not wanting to be limited more than "necessary" by the vehicle's range. In the US in particular, there is a long history of marketing fomenting a "yearning to hit the open road"...I'm guessing that has something to do with it.
Agree on the symbolic statement. There are many things that we do all the time that we are 'used to' and which don't bother us, and then when we stop doing them THEN we realize that we didn't like them (like buying gasoline). And there are other things that we think are important, which when we stop doing them, we realize aren't all that important (like shaving road trip stops down to 10 minutes max).

I also liken it to being an ex-smoker. An ex-smoker might have more problems with second hand smoke than a never smoker.

When you change something in your life, you start to notice things. As an EV driver, I notice how when I'm talking to someone in the car, we are using our normal voices, not yelling. I notice how loud other vehicles are, and I can smell the car in front of me oftentimes. I will pass a car if I don't like how it smells. :D
cmr79
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by cmr79 »

just frank wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:42 am ...As an EV driver, I notice how when I'm talking to someone in the car, we are using our normal voices, not yelling.
...
This one was huge for us. Our younger child is very soft-spoken, and when driving her around in our Forester, I would need to ask her to repeat herself probably 50-60% of the time. This immediately changed when we got our EV. I do find I have to be more aware of pedestrians in parking lots, though, as some people bumbling around on their phones seem to be completely unaware of my presence. Perhaps the AVAS (artificial slow speed noise) on my EV isn't annoying enough.
sureshoe
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by sureshoe »

warner25 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:38 am Those cars are not in the same size class. The Prius is sized more like a Corolla. In fact the 2008 Prius was smaller than the 2008 Corolla.
Based on what? The EPA classified both the Camry and the Prius as midsize cars while categorizing the Corolla as a compact. In terms of passenger volume, the Prius is closer to the Camry, and it has more luggage volume.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?act ... 24401#tab4

Corolla: 89 cubic feet of passenger volume, 14 cubic feet of luggage volume
Prius: 96 cubic feet of passenger volume, 16 cubic feet of luggage volume
Camry: 101 cubic feet of passenger volume, 15 cubic feet of luggage volume
This is a debate that has raged since the Prius tends to keep getting a little bigger. There is no official sizing to say what is a midsized vs. compact.

Camry is clearly a midsized car.
Prius is either a large compact or a small midsized depending on where you look.

Camry is notably larger on the outside and weighs more. Interior measures vary on where you look. The back seat is much smaller in the Prius.

Most car people consider Corolla and Prius comparables more than Camry. If you don't, fine.
TravellingTechOnFire
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

If you qualify with income, a 2 year old PHEV will be the way to go:

-Like new in terms of technology, safety, reliability.
-*Some* savings off MSRP compared to buying new.
-$4,000 point of sale tax credit...reduces the purchase price of vehicle.
-Possible additional state rebates.
-20-40 mile all electric range using no gas.
-Ability to power some or all of your commute with solar now or in the future.
-Drastically reduced wear on brakes.

For all of these reasons, I can't imagine why anyone would purchase a normal ICE car anymore.
Glockenspiel
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Glockenspiel »

We bought a Toyota Highlander Hybrid for only $1,400 more than a full ICE engine. The break-even point on $1,400 is between 2-3 years (assuming 10k miles/year and $3/gallon gas). I loooooove it and couldn't recommend it more. We get about 32-36 MPG on our 3-row SUV compared with 20-22 MPG for the ICE engine. Fewer trips to the gas station. Regenerative braking. I have zero worries about the battery. I suspect it will last much longer than we own the vehicle for. We typically replace vehicles every 8-10 years.
MathWizard
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by MathWizard »

YeahBuddy wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:02 am
MathWizard wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:18 am
davebo wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 pm So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
With Toyotas, at least, you won't need a brake job. The synergy drive causes almost all braking to be regenerative.

I haven't had any problems with my 2017 Avalon Hybrid so far, but I'm only at 49K miles.

This is false. The regenerative braking in hybrids is mild compared to that of say, a Tesla, that's so aggressive it brings you to a complete stop.

I needed brakes around 50k in my Prius. I've heard of many owners going 100k or more before needing new brakes, but it depends on driving conditions and user. Here we have tons of heavy, fast moving traffic that makes it more difficult to not use your brakes. It doesn't matter if you drive in the slow, middle, or fast lane, someone is always trying to cut you off.
I do use the brake pedal, and my adaptive cruise will brake for me.

In my Avalon Hybrid, as the brake pedal is engaged, the engine does more regenerative braking, only engaging the brake material for the most severe braking. It has a dial in the dash that shows this happening.
Valuethinker
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Valuethinker »

just frank wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:42 am
cmr79 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:08 am
dsmclone wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:55 am The whole "I hate having to fill up every 350 miles" bogles my mind. That's usually 5 hours of driving and it's too much to pull over for 10 minutes to fill up? How many miles do you drive on one of these trips? Even if you drive 1000 miles(14 hours) and have to fill up 3 times in 14 hours, compared to twice, is that 10 minutes spread over 14 hours really that important? Also, how often do you perform these 1000 mile a day trips?

Also, how do you go 14 hours without visiting a bathroom? Or do I not want to know this?
I agree with this sentiment. I've started to interpret statements like this--wanting to avoid the gas station, or wanting to avoid charging an EV--as being more symbolic of wanting more freedom and not wanting to be limited more than "necessary" by the vehicle's range. In the US in particular, there is a long history of marketing fomenting a "yearning to hit the open road"...I'm guessing that has something to do with it.
Agree on the symbolic statement. There are many things that we do all the time that we are 'used to' and which don't bother us, and then when we stop doing them THEN we realize that we didn't like them (like buying gasoline). And there are other things that we think are important, which when we stop doing them, we realize aren't all that important (like shaving road trip stops down to 10 minutes max).

I also liken it to being an ex-smoker. An ex-smoker might have more problems with second hand smoke than a never smoker.
History. Go back to the beginnings of ICE vehicles. At one time there were actually more EVs in America - they were thought to be more suitable for "lady" drivers- -no cranking, not as oily and smelly. Some research shows that EVs trumped ICEs *where there was an electricity grid* but the grid was only a series of municipalities, each their own isolated power island (that's why LA had 25 cycle (Hz) electricity until the 1950s? One day they had a resynchronisation to 60 cycle to link up their power stations with the rest of the grid).

We forget that at one time there were not highways and paved roads. That there were not gas stations every 50 miles. That ICE cars broke down a lot more.

We are comparing EVs, where the ecosystem is barely established, and modern EVs are only 20 or so years old, with 120 years of ICE evolution both in technology and ecosystem. So we could have military-sized fuel tanks (I think the M1 Abrams tank gets something like 2 gallons kerosene to the mile for its gas turbine engine?). Say double what we do have - drive 1000 miles with no refilling? But the ecosystem means that with 350 miles in the tank, it's very rare to run out of gasoline.
When you change something in your life, you start to notice things. As an EV driver, I notice how when I'm talking to someone in the car, we are using our normal voices, not yelling. I notice how loud other vehicles are, and I can smell the car in front of me oftentimes. I will pass a car if I don't like how it smells. :D
Ex smokers say something similar. Sense of smell returns. Things taste better.

I found in almost giving up alcohol (for entirely separate reasons) that how I experienced social contexts change. I still talk a lot of bollox, but I am more mindful of what others are saying, more attentive. And I don't wake up with quite the fuzzy head (for that reason). In British society it's probably rarer to not drink (except for some religious groups) than in American so it really was a break.
YeahBuddy
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by YeahBuddy »

MathWizard wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:34 am
YeahBuddy wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:02 am
MathWizard wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:18 am
davebo wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 pm So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
With Toyotas, at least, you won't need a brake job. The synergy drive causes almost all braking to be regenerative.

I haven't had any problems with my 2017 Avalon Hybrid so far, but I'm only at 49K miles.

This is false. The regenerative braking in hybrids is mild compared to that of say, a Tesla, that's so aggressive it brings you to a complete stop.

I needed brakes around 50k in my Prius. I've heard of many owners going 100k or more before needing new brakes, but it depends on driving conditions and user. Here we have tons of heavy, fast moving traffic that makes it more difficult to not use your brakes. It doesn't matter if you drive in the slow, middle, or fast lane, someone is always trying to cut you off.
I do use the brake pedal, and my adaptive cruise will brake for me.

In my Avalon Hybrid, as the brake pedal is engaged, the engine does more regenerative braking, only engaging the brake material for the most severe braking. It has a dial in the dash that shows this happening.

I was told by the mechanic that a 50k brake job on a Prius was a little premature. Most get done around 80k around here, he said. So I tried to figure out why mine wore more quickly. I do lightly use them for the regen aspect. I'm constantly monitoring my mpg and driving habits. I probably used the brakes much more aggressively on the highway a few times when the car was new, 7-8 years ago. Maybe that did it. I try to never use my brakes on the highway anymore, but it happens! Also, I do try using the regen frequently to stop the car. After coasting for 5-10 seconds, I go from 40 down to maybe 30. Brakes are a must for the rest of the work. :happy

And for OP - there's no hidden costs, and it's true you will use your brakes less. Toyota warranties their hybrid battery for 10 years / 150,000 miles and most owners get 15-20 years before replacement. Hope this helps :D
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RickBoglehead
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by RickBoglehead »

madbrain wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:05 am
RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:03 am As others have stated, battery replacements in hybrids, PHEVs, and EVs aren't a thing.
Yes, it's a thing. My first car, a 2001 Toyota Prius (gen 1) had a battery replacement at 8 years, 3 months and 94,000 miles - just past the 8 years/100,000 miles warranty. The car could not be driven without the hybrid battery - it had to be towed. The dealer cost to replace it was about $3500. We pled with Toyota to cover it, since it was so close to the end of the warranty, and they agreed to cover half the cost. We kept the car for 2 more years - and replaced it with a 2011 Prius.

More recently, our 2017 Chevrolet Bolt had a battery replacement in January of 2020 due to the recall. The original battery had also suffered from dramatically reduced capacity problems over time, so we were glad to get the replacement. The new battery has not shown any problems.
Well, that's one. One of which was under warranty AND a well known issue that GM screwed up on.

My point was that replacing batteries in hybrids and EVs is very, very, very, very rare. How many people do you know that needed gas engines replaced / rebuilt?
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telemark
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by telemark »

warner25 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:08 pm
retire57 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:25 pm If you are stuck in a large traffic jam-up, e.g. an accident slowdown, you will remain cool (or warm) without burning gas. Just set the thermostat... the car can stay cool while you are in the grocery store. Without burning gas.
I'm confused by this. It's not like free energy. The battery can certainly power the climate control while the engine isn't running, but the battery charge in most hybrids ultimately comes only from burning gas.

Does yours also have solar panels on the roof? I think I remember that being a feature at one time, for the purpose of keeping the car cool when parked in the sun.
My 2015 Prius has a solar roof. It doesn't run the air conditioner, but it will operate the fan as needed to pull air in from the outside so your interior doesn't turn into a greenhouse. I'm not sure if the reason was the limited power output or the difficulty of integrating the solar panel into the rest of the rather complex electrical system.

As a separate issue, both the traction battery and the 12 volt battery need to be used periodically. If you regularly leave the car sitting for long periods, for example snowbirds, that would be a reason to avoid hybrids (or any EVs, for that matter).
MishkaWorries
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by MishkaWorries »

02nz wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:19 pm
Tom_T wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 am EVs were recently in the news because they were having issues in frigid weather. Do weather conditions apply at all to a hybrid, or does the gas engine simply take over if the battery is low?
Ugh, this again. EVs were not "having issues in frigid weather." There were people who were not prepared for the battery needing to warm up before being able to accept the fastest charge.

This was an issue only if you left your vehicle out in the cold, AND needed to go a long distance using DC fast charging, AND didn't have enough charge to drive the half hour or so it would take the battery to warm up.

All complete non-issues for hybrids, which don't do DC fast charging.

Also, in Norway, with far harsher winters than much of the U.S., over 90% of new vehicles sold now are EVs.
Ugh. Weather does have an impact on hybrid cars. My 2014 Prius reliably gets 50 mpg all year except in winter. Then the mpg drops to about 40.
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rene
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by rene »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:32 am We bought a Toyota Highlander Hybrid for only $1,400 more than a full ICE engine. The break-even point on $1,400 is between 2-3 years (assuming 10k miles/year and $3/gallon gas). I loooooove it and couldn't recommend it more. We get about 32-36 MPG on our 3-row SUV compared with 20-22 MPG for the ICE engine. Fewer trips to the gas station. Regenerative braking. I have zero worries about the battery. I suspect it will last much longer than we own the vehicle for. We typically replace vehicles every 8-10 years.
This. Same scenario for me (well, for my DW to be specific)

Seems that the ‘market’ has figured this out long before us and that’s why these Highlander Hybrids are basically unicorns on the dealership lots. We got lucky because some canceled their purchase and we were able to sweep in with as we were the 2nd deposit on the car.

When my ice CR-V dies I hope there are better, more and cheaper full EV options available. For now the HiHy is just a no brainer for our scenario.
Last edited by rene on Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
02nz
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by 02nz »

MishkaWorries wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:18 pm
02nz wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:19 pm
Tom_T wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 am EVs were recently in the news because they were having issues in frigid weather. Do weather conditions apply at all to a hybrid, or does the gas engine simply take over if the battery is low?
Ugh, this again. EVs were not "having issues in frigid weather." There were people who were not prepared for the battery needing to warm up before being able to accept the fastest charge.

This was an issue only if you left your vehicle out in the cold, AND needed to go a long distance using DC fast charging, AND didn't have enough charge to drive the half hour or so it would take the battery to warm up.

All complete non-issues for hybrids, which don't do DC fast charging.

Also, in Norway, with far harsher winters than much of the U.S., over 90% of new vehicles sold now are EVs.
Ugh. Weather does have an impact on hybrid cars. My 2014 Prius reliably gets 50 mpg all year except in winter. Then the mpg drops to about 40.
Temperature affects all cars. ICE cars are less efficient in the winter as well. It's just that they are so inefficient to begin with that the relative difference is less. In absolute terms it's about the same.
IggyJo
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by IggyJo »

My 2009 Prius is still going strong and I still love it as it approaches 140,000 miles. During the past two years I have replaced the front battery and a muffler. Once a week I put about $13.00 worth of regular gas and do regular maintenance.
Valuethinker
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Valuethinker »

02nz wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:57 am
MishkaWorries wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:18 pm
02nz wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:19 pm
Tom_T wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 am EVs were recently in the news because they were having issues in frigid weather. Do weather conditions apply at all to a hybrid, or does the gas engine simply take over if the battery is low?
Ugh, this again. EVs were not "having issues in frigid weather." There were people who were not prepared for the battery needing to warm up before being able to accept the fastest charge.

This was an issue only if you left your vehicle out in the cold, AND needed to go a long distance using DC fast charging, AND didn't have enough charge to drive the half hour or so it would take the battery to warm up.

All complete non-issues for hybrids, which don't do DC fast charging.

Also, in Norway, with far harsher winters than much of the U.S., over 90% of new vehicles sold now are EVs.
Ugh. Weather does have an impact on hybrid cars. My 2014 Prius reliably gets 50 mpg all year except in winter. Then the mpg drops to about 40.
Temperature affects all cars. ICE cars are less efficient in the winter as well. It's just that they are so inefficient to begin with that the relative difference is less. In absolute terms it's about the same.
Do you remember when diesel cars couldn't handle starting in cold weather?

That (besides other issues*) was why diesel cars died a death in North America in the 1970s. European manufacturers kept tooling away at it, and in the 1990s some countries brought in big incentives for more fuel efficient diesel vehicles - France in particular. Britain followed suit in the 2000s.** At one point more than half of all French light vehicle sales were diesels. It was always much less in Sweden so perhaps there were still problems with diesel cold starts.

OTOH people like to sit with their car engines running in cold weather. And a diesel is far far more efficient idling than a gasoline engine.

* GM launched a diesel product which was absolutely dreadful. Noise and smell. Really tarnished the market.

US and Japan were always minimal markets for diesel cars because of tight air pollution controls. I think European manufacturers lobbied to keep their legislation inside the parameters that they could achieve. Then came the whole VW scandal, of course.

** given what we now know about the health impacts of micro particles. PM2.5 and PM1.0 (or even lower). This turns out to have been very bad healthwise. Diesel engine car sales are now in permanent decline. However since cars last 20 years, say it will take a long time to completely turn over the existing fleet.
Glockenspiel
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Glockenspiel »

rene wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:50 pm
Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:32 am We bought a Toyota Highlander Hybrid for only $1,400 more than a full ICE engine. The break-even point on $1,400 is between 2-3 years (assuming 10k miles/year and $3/gallon gas). I loooooove it and couldn't recommend it more. We get about 32-36 MPG on our 3-row SUV compared with 20-22 MPG for the ICE engine. Fewer trips to the gas station. Regenerative braking. I have zero worries about the battery. I suspect it will last much longer than we own the vehicle for. We typically replace vehicles every 8-10 years.
This. Same scenario for me (well, for my DW to be specific)

Seems that the ‘market’ has figured this out long before us and that’s why these Highlander Hybrids are basically unicorns on the dealership lots. We got lucky because some canceled their purchase and we were able to sweep in with as we were the 2nd deposit on the car.

When my ice CR-V I hope there are better, more and cheaper full EV options available. For now the HiHy is just a no brainer for our scenario.
We have an ICE 2015 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport as my vehicle and I've been waiting on more full EV options to replace that vehicle. To me, the Kia EV9 looks fantastic and seems to be a front-runner until more options are available.
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