Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

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Dottie57
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Dottie57 »

How is persistence of login status persisted in Bogleheads forum. Is it stored in a cookie, or in each web page or cached ?
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Dottie57 wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2024 9:17 pm How is persistence of login status persisted in Bogleheads forum. Is it stored in a cookie, or in each web page or cached ?
A combination of a stored cookie on your device and a “Remember Me” login key that can be managed in your User Control Panel (UCP). The direct link to Manage “Remember Me” login keys is ucp.php?i=ucp_profile&mode=autologin_keys
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michaelingp
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

So this morning I was logged in (after the PC slept over night), but I went to play pickleball while my PC slept, and I came back and I was logged out. This is a bit frustrating, if only because I can't see any pattern except the passage of time, but it's different numbers of hours that it does or doesn't happen. Looking at the list of "remember me" flags, I have only used this PC on BH forum since January 4.

Am I right that each time you login and check "remember me", there will be an entry in the log? That would save me having to keep track of the time myself, looking for a pattern.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by bonesly »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 7:19 am We updated the forum software on 10/31. Part of the standard update procedure is to do a refresh of the displayed website, which should have forced everyone's browsers to download a fresh copy. It's why everyone saw the MacOS Safari bug fix right away. Your browser got a fresh copy of the those files.
This has also been happening to me on a PC running Windows 11 Home, version 22H2 (OS build 22621.3007, Experience 1000.22681.1000.0) with Chrome Version 120.0.6099.217 (Official Build) (64-bit).

It's been happening since before Thanksgiving and still persists today, so I would guess the update on 10/31 is the trigger date for this issue.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by tetractys »

Why is it that every time I take a cookie from the cookie jar in our kitchen I get logged out?
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

bonesly wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 6:49 pm It's been happening since before Thanksgiving and still persists today, so I would guess the update on 10/31 is the trigger date for this issue.
For me it seems to have started around Jan 4, 2024. I've been watching it now for a bit, and the only pattern I can see is that I seem to be logged out after 24 hours. I don't know if this is exact, just that it seems to be after 24 hours have passed. I am (now) a member of the Canadian version of this forum which uses identical software, and I don't get logged out of it. Puzzling. This is Windows 10 with latest version of Chrome.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

On further reflection... It seems that the only way you should have to log back in is if you manually log out (which I am quite sure I have never done).
According to the verbiage above the list of remember me keys, when you manually log out, the remember me key for that session is deleted. That would explain why my remember me keys are just piling up like so much drift wood (since I haven't logged out manually). The question is why is the most recent remember me key not taking any effect, despite the fact I've got the same IP address, almost always use the same computer and browser, and haven't manually logged out anywhere?
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Silentnight
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Silentnight »

Glad to see this thread.
Last week it began happening to me. I have the "remember me" checked.
Laptop. Chrome. Windows 11. Home WIFI. The "clear browsing data" in NOT checked. I'm not being signed out on other sites.
I'm not tech savvy. This is a new issue for me. I don't think I've changed any settings (mainly bc of not being tech savvy and figuring I'll mess something up if I touch anything)
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

Has anybody seen this with Edge on Windows (10 or 11)? I'm trying to duplicate the problem on Edge, so far unsuccessfully.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 6:48 pm I am not experiencing this using Edge browser on Windows 11 2H23, iOS 17.1.1 and iPadOS 17.1.1. All involved recent updates, both browser and underlying operating system. I actually cannot recall when I actually logged into Bogleheads on the devices as I always use the “Remember me” checkbox.
Still haven't seen the problem with Edge and I have had at least three out of town trips since the original post so my IP address would definitely have changed as I switched from home network to WiFi networks elsewhere.
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michaelingp
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

I am having this problem almost constantly (maybe 50% of the times I bring up a new BH tab, so every day), both in Chrome and Edge. If you have seen this problem, and have picked up any patterns or clues, please post, even if the problem has gone away.

Problem description: Even though you checked "Remember me" when you logged on, in a subsequent attempt to use the forum you are asked to login again (i.e. the word "login" appears where your username normally would in the upper right corner.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by sycamore »

michaelingp wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:47 pm I am having this problem almost constantly (maybe 50% of the times I bring up a new BH tab, so every day), both in Chrome and Edge. If you have seen this problem, and have picked up any patterns or clues, please post, even if the problem has gone away.

Problem description: Even though you checked "Remember me" when you logged on, in a subsequent attempt to use the forum you are asked to login again (i.e. the word "login" appears where your username normally would in the upper right corner.
I don't have this problem.

- I use the same browser (Chrome on Windows).

- I configured Chrome to block 3rd-party cookies. I don't think that would have an effect on Bogleheads or any other phpBB forum.

- I don't have it clear out the cache when I close the window or anything like that.

- I have two browser extensions installed: uBlock Origin and LastPass. In general I don't think either of those would lead to the symptoms.
What extensions do you have installed?
Have you customized uBlock Origin or other ad blocker to block stuff?

- my home's internet provider assigns me the same IP address all the time (that I can tell). Maybe your ISP hands out a new IP address every day? Not to send you down a rabbit hole; AFAIK that doesn't affect Bogleheads cookies or any other phpBB forum. But if you're curious, browse to https://www.whatsmyip.org/ and see if your IP address changes from one day to the next.

- I don't use a VPN. Do you?

- Do you have any 3rd party software (outside of the browser) that provides "security" features? McAfee, Norton or their ilk. Maybe they're messing with your browser cookies? Throwing out a WAG here.
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Silentnight
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Silentnight »

I posted earlier on this thread that I kept getting logged out. It's continuing to happen. Not every time. I haven't noticed a pattern.

Edit: After I posted this, I read some other threads. I noticed when I clicked on "first unread post" it did not take me to the last post I had read. Instead, the phrase "first unread post" disappeared and I stayed on the initial post even though I had previously read all of page 1 of the post.
Somehow I got logged out of BH while reading posts on BH. How could that happen?
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

sycamore wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:38 pm
michaelingp wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:47 pm I am having this problem almost constantly (maybe 50% of the times I bring up a new BH tab, so every day), both in Chrome and Edge. If you have seen this problem, and have picked up any patterns or clues, please post, even if the problem has gone away.

Problem description: Even though you checked "Remember me" when you logged on, in a subsequent attempt to use the forum you are asked to login again (i.e. the word "login" appears where your username normally would in the upper right corner.
I don't have this problem.

- I use the same browser (Chrome on Windows).

- I configured Chrome to block 3rd-party cookies. I don't think that would have an effect on Bogleheads or any other phpBB forum.

- I don't have it clear out the cache when I close the window or anything like that.

- I have two browser extensions installed: uBlock Origin and LastPass. In general I don't think either of those would lead to the symptoms.
What extensions do you have installed?
Have you customized uBlock Origin or other ad blocker to block stuff?

- my home's internet provider assigns me the same IP address all the time (that I can tell). Maybe your ISP hands out a new IP address every day? Not to send you down a rabbit hole; AFAIK that doesn't affect Bogleheads cookies or any other phpBB forum. But if you're curious, browse to https://www.whatsmyip.org/ and see if your IP address changes from one day to the next.

- I don't use a VPN. Do you?

- Do you have any 3rd party software (outside of the browser) that provides "security" features? McAfee, Norton or their ilk. Maybe they're messing with your browser cookies? Throwing out a WAG here.
Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions! (Actually I'm amazed you saw this thread since you don't have the problem.) Mostly same configuration here: 3rd party cookies prohibited, turned off all extensions except password manager, same IP address basically forever, no VPN, had Malwarebytees but deleted it to see if it made a difference.

So, still a mystery!
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

Silentnight wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:35 pm I posted earlier on this thread that I kept getting logged out. It's continuing to happen. Not every time. I haven't noticed a pattern.

Edit: After I posted this, I read some other threads. I noticed when I clicked on "first unread post" it did not take me to the last post I had read. Instead, the phrase "first unread post" disappeared and I stayed on the initial post even though I had previously read all of page 1 of the post.
Somehow I got logged out of BH while reading posts on BH. How could that happen?
We don't know how it could happen, hence the ask for reports. When this apparent getting logged out while reading posts happens, does anything change up in the top right corner (to the right of "private messages") where normally your username would be while you were reading posts? Does it go back to saying "login"?
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Stinky »

nalor511 wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 3:57 pm The same thing happens to me on mobile (don't know if you're on mobile). On the computer, I have no issues.
This has been happening to me on iPhone for several months now. Using iOS 17.3 and Chrome browser. I need to log in once or twice per day, and I always click “remember me” when I log in.

Never happens to me on my Windows computer.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ That's a good hint, as I don't have iOS.

You are logged out when the browser cookie disappears. Google suggests that Safari cookies expire (are deleted) after 7 days. Perhaps look at the browser settings?
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 9:19 am Google suggests that Safari cookies expire (are deleted) after 7 days.
FWIW the board software sets cookies with an expiry of one year. These cookies are NOT third-party cookies.
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Silentnight
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Silentnight »

michaelingp wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:24 am
Silentnight wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:35 pm I posted earlier on this thread that I kept getting logged out. It's continuing to happen. Not every time. I haven't noticed a pattern.

Edit: After I posted this, I read some other threads. I noticed when I clicked on "first unread post" it did not take me to the last post I had read. Instead, the phrase "first unread post" disappeared and I stayed on the initial post even though I had previously read all of page 1 of the post.
Somehow I got logged out of BH while reading posts on BH. How could that happen?
We don't know how it could happen, hence the ask for reports. When this apparent getting logged out while reading posts happens, does anything change up in the top right corner (to the right of "private messages") where normally your username would be while you were reading posts? Does it go back to saying "login"?
I've begun today to take notes so that I am sure of what I'm saying. But yes, yesterday my screen name displayed when I started reading the posts. When the "first unread post" situation happened I didn't think to look at the displayed name status. But, when I went to the Quick Links later, I happened to glance at the right hand side and my screen name did not show. So I logged back in. I had had the "keep me logged in" box checked, and when I logged back in yesterday, I checked that box again. So far so good today, but this is my first time coming to BH today.

Edit: other than user name, any other things I should be putting in my notes?
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

michaelingp wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:47 pm If you have seen this problem, and have picked up any patterns or clues, please post, even if the problem has gone away.
I have been working behind the scenes with michaelingp who has provided lots of helpful information to attempt to isolate why some members are encountering this problem. Unfortunately the root cause continues to remain hidden.
Peculiar_Investor wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:48 am To help in investigating it would be helpful of those experiencing the issue would report what operating system and what browser they are using.
An additional thought on what be helpful to investigate this. If you find yourself logged off unexpectedly and are checking the "Remember me" box when you log in could you please post a couple of pieces of information (if you know them).
  1. Can you post the URL that you used when you visited the forum. I am guessing that most members return after some absence using a bookmarked URL.
  2. Do you recall when you were last browsing the Bogleheads forum and what you last did? Examples, viewed a post, made a post, viewed a forum, viewed or sent a PM.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Stinky »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 4:23 pm).
  1. Can you post the URL that you used when you visited the forum. I am guessing that most members return after some absence using a bookmarked URL.
  2. Do you recall when you were last browsing the Bogleheads forum and what you last did? Examples, viewed a post, made a post, viewed a forum, viewed or sent a PM.
I was just logged out after being logged in when I most recently checked the Forum about two hours ago.

—- iPhone 11
—- iOS 17.3
—- Chrome browser
—- I was quoted in a post, and I clicked on the link in the notification email to get to the new post. Here’s the link from the email. viewtopic.php?p=7701826#p7701826
—- When I clicked on the link, Chrome opened a new window. I was not logged in on either that window, or on the window which I had checked two hours ago. (Note that I keep a window open all the time on my iPhone to the Forum).
—- When I used the window to look at the Forum about two hours ago, I believe that I was just looking at “active threads”. Didn’t post anything this morning I don’t think (until now that is)

Let me know if you need more details.

Just to be clear - on a list of “world problems” on a scale of 0 to 10, this is about a 0.5. Not a big deal. But annoying nonetheless.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Stinky wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:17 am Let me know if you need more details.

Just to be clear - on a list of “world problems” on a scale of 0 to 10, this is about a 0.5. Not a big deal. But annoying nonetheless.
Thanks that information is very helpful. Understand the list of "world problems" however as a software engineer I am often guided by:

Image
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Stinky »

Stinky wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:17 am
Peculiar_Investor wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 4:23 pm).
  1. Can you post the URL that you used when you visited the forum. I am guessing that most members return after some absence using a bookmarked URL.
  2. Do you recall when you were last browsing the Bogleheads forum and what you last did? Examples, viewed a post, made a post, viewed a forum, viewed or sent a PM.
I was just logged out after being logged in when I most recently checked the Forum about two hours ago.

—- iPhone 11
—- iOS 17.3
—- Chrome browser
—- I was quoted in a post, and I clicked on the link in the notification email to get to the new post. Here’s the link from the email. viewtopic.php?p=7701826#p7701826
—- When I clicked on the link, Chrome opened a new window. I was not logged in on either that window, or on the window which I had checked two hours ago. (Note that I keep a window open all the time on my iPhone to the Forum).
—- When I used the window to look at the Forum about two hours ago, I believe that I was just looking at “active threads”. Didn’t post anything this morning I don’t think (until now that is)

Let me know if you need more details.

Just to be clear - on a list of “world problems” on a scale of 0 to 10, this is about a 0.5. Not a big deal. But annoying nonetheless.
Same exact thing has happened twice again in the last three days.

Each time, I clicked on the link embedded in the email notifying me of a new post in a thread that I’m following. And I’m logged out.

It doesn’t happen every time I click on such a link. But it’s happened to me three times within the last week.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
sycamore
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by sycamore »

Couple of thoughts...

1) I don't what the link looks like when you get an email notification. Maybe there's something embedded in the URL that logs you out?

2) Also, I see that Bogleheads (phpBB forum software) displays a user's Manage “Remember Me” login keys table in the User Control Panel.

Each user can see their own at: ucp.php?i=ucp_profile&mode=autologin_keys.

The columns are Login key, IP address, and login time. Can we use the IP address to debug things? Like... every time you finish using Bogleheads for the day, you could check that table and take note of the IP addresses. Next time you use Bogleheads and you end up being "logged out", see what your IP address currently is (https://www.whatsmyip.org/). If it's not one of the known addresses, we could conclude your home or phone's IP address changed.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Silentnight »

Silentnight wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:37 am
michaelingp wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:24 am
Silentnight wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:35 pm I posted earlier on this thread that I kept getting logged out. It's continuing to happen. Not every time. I haven't noticed a pattern.

Edit: After I posted this, I read some other threads. I noticed when I clicked on "first unread post" it did not take me to the last post I had read. Instead, the phrase "first unread post" disappeared and I stayed on the initial post even though I had previously read all of page 1 of the post.
Somehow I got logged out of BH while reading posts on BH. How could that happen?
We don't know how it could happen, hence the ask for reports. When this apparent getting logged out while reading posts happens, does anything change up in the top right corner (to the right of "private messages") where normally your username would be while you were reading posts? Does it go back to saying "login"?
I've begun today to take notes so that I am sure of what I'm saying. But yes, yesterday my screen name displayed when I started reading the posts. When the "first unread post" situation happened I didn't think to look at the displayed name status. But, when I went to the Quick Links later, I happened to glance at the right hand side and my screen name did not show. So I logged back in. I had had the "keep me logged in" box checked, and when I logged back in yesterday, I checked that box again. So far so good today, but this is my first time coming to BH today.

Edit: other than user name, any other things I should be putting in my notes?
On 2/6 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/7 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/8 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/9 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/10 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/11 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again. Sent this message.
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Silentnight
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Silentnight »

Silentnight wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:17 pm
Silentnight wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:37 am
michaelingp wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:24 am
Silentnight wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:35 pm
I've begun today to take notes so that I am sure of what I'm saying. But yes, yesterday my screen name displayed when I started reading the posts. When the "first unread post" situation happened I didn't think to look at the displayed name status. But, when I went to the Quick Links later, I happened to glance at the right hand side and my screen name did not show. So I logged back in. I had had the "keep me logged in" box checked, and when I logged back in yesterday, I checked that box again. So far so good today, but this is my first time coming to BH today.

Edit: other than user name, any other things I should be putting in my notes?
On 2/6 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/7 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/8 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/9 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/10 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/11 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again. Sent this message.
[ quote fixed by admin LadyGeek]

On 2/12 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop.
Later on 2/12 restarted the laptop, and had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Mudpuppy »

michaelingp wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:53 pm On further reflection... It seems that the only way you should have to log back in is if you manually log out (which I am quite sure I have never done).
According to the verbiage above the list of remember me keys, when you manually log out, the remember me key for that session is deleted. That would explain why my remember me keys are just piling up like so much drift wood (since I haven't logged out manually). The question is why is the most recent remember me key not taking any effect, despite the fact I've got the same IP address, almost always use the same computer and browser, and haven't manually logged out anywhere?
It bears noting that the "Remember Me" keys live in two places: (1) the forum and (2) your browser. Deleting the key in either place is enough to force a logout. If the keys are still present in the forum (link: ucp.php?i=ucp_profile&mode=autologin_keys), then that points to the browser, particularly how the browser manages the cookie that stores its copy of the key. Something in the browser or OS settings may be purging all cookies on a specific time basis, or some other action is causing the browser to lose the cookie specifically for the forum. This is a bit hard for the lay person to look into though, other that trying to track down either a frequency or action that seems to trigger the issue.
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

Mudpuppy wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:03 pm
michaelingp wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:53 pm On further reflection... It seems that the only way you should have to log back in is if you manually log out (which I am quite sure I have never done).
According to the verbiage above the list of remember me keys, when you manually log out, the remember me key for that session is deleted. That would explain why my remember me keys are just piling up like so much drift wood (since I haven't logged out manually). The question is why is the most recent remember me key not taking any effect, despite the fact I've got the same IP address, almost always use the same computer and browser, and haven't manually logged out anywhere?
It bears noting that the "Remember Me" keys live in two places: (1) the forum and (2) your browser. Deleting the key in either place is enough to force a logout. If the keys are still present in the forum (link: ucp.php?i=ucp_profile&mode=autologin_keys), then that points to the browser, particularly how the browser manages the cookie that stores its copy of the key. Something in the browser or OS settings may be purging all cookies on a specific time basis, or some other action is causing the browser to lose the cookie specifically for the forum. This is a bit hard for the lay person to look into though, other that trying to track down either a frequency or action that seems to trigger the issue.
Actually, I've looked at it a lot, and it's not that the cookie is deleted in the browser. From what I've seen, it's actually the value of the cookie (phpbb3_hrsjn_k) that is set to null. It is very hard to believe that any browser would have a bug this catastrophic. It would, literally, break the internet if a browser arbitrarily changed the value of an existing cookie. Unfortunately, Chrome encrypts cookies, so I haven't found a way to determine the value of a cookie except when the BH forum is linked to (occupies a tab).
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Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by Silentnight »

On 2/6 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/7 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/8 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/9 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/10 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/11 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again.
On 2/12 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop.
Later on 2/12 restarted the laptop, and had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again.

On 2/13 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again. Later X'd off the tab, shut down the lap top
On 2/14 I had to login. Checked the "remember me" box again. Later X'd off the tab, shut down the lap top
On 2/15 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off
Again on 2/15, was logged on when opened the BH tab. X'd off the tab, shut down the laptop
On 2/16 was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off and shut the laptop down.
On 2/16 restarted laptop and was logged on already when I opened the BH tab. X'd off but did not shut down lap top
On 2/16 went back to read BH for a third time, and had to log in again. Once again checked the "remember me" box.

Seems pretty random to me. Unless asked, I'll stop reporting for now.
fujiters
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:17 pm

Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by fujiters »

This is also happening to me over the past few months at least. It was notably bad yesterday (had to re-login 3 times).
“The purpose of the margin of safety is to render the forecast unnecessary.” -Benjamin Graham
michaelingp
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:46 pm

Re: Boglehead Keeps Logging Out

Post by michaelingp »

Silentnight wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 8:40 pm

Seems pretty random to me. Unless asked, I'll stop reporting for now.
I think that's reasonable. I logged the results myself for about as long. Since I can't see any pattern either (other than I'm getting it almost every day now, sometimes twice a day), I've stopped keeping a log myself.
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