ChatGPT just wrote me a POA that is better than the attorney's

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

As an estate planner been wondering when this would come up. Some random thoughts:

-i’ve been meaning to test ChatGPT as a tool for updating my own documents but haven’t had the time. Last year was busiest and most profitable in 15 years. I expect to be even busier when the estate tax exemption gets cut in half at the end of 2025.

-I’ve never “sold documents” to begin with but rather consulted with people in order to craft or revise an estate plan suitable to their goals and circumstances, all at an hourly rate. If AI can reduce my time tinkering with documents (the tedious part) and free up time to meet with people or not work on the weekends and vacations then I would welcome that.

-maybe more at risk than estate planning specialists are lawyers that just dabble in this area and, maybe ironically, Legal Zoom and the like as the first wave of industry disrupters. A loose analogy might be the shift from the AUM model (selling docs) to fee based financial advisors that actually add value with their advice.

-as others have noted it takes much longer to review and edit another person’s document than preparing my own. Fixing drafting mistakes takes even longer through family agreements/trust modifications and litigation. I do all the above and so do a lot of other T&E lawyers I know.

-people doing their own documents also opens the door to family members unduly influencing the signor (“here sign this”) or to other family members challenging the document on the suspicion that’s what happened. Having a lawyer prepare a plan and oversee the signing goes a long way to avoiding undue influence and suppressing legal challenges.

-since it was the example given, POAs in particular are like giving your client a hand grenade; you wouldn’t believe how many family members use them to take money or change beneficiary designations. Yet at the same time gifting powers can be very important for tax planning, long term care planning, and even general estate planning and so I talk with the client about those issues and try to tailor gifting and related provisions to minimize risk. I wonder how ChatGPT handles that.

-some states have special language that allows for attorneys fees if you have to sue to force third parties to honor the POA. AI might not “realize” that and other state specific issues either.

-who knows, maybe I’ll be looking for a new job in a few years and come take one of yours

[nisiprius]

Retired atty here. I could be wrong, but I don't think lawyers have too much to worry about - at least not yet.

Usually, the issues that come up with even legal matters, like with routine matters like a POA, are not what the client tells the atty, but what the client isn't telling the atty, or what the client doesn't even know. That's a key part of the value of an experienced atty. He or she will know what questions to ask to get necessary information that the client hasn't thought to provide, and they know whether a POA needs to be notarized, or witnessed, and how many witnesses (is one OK?, or do you need two?), and who can and can't be a witness, etc....

Very interesting, that sounds exactly right. Thank you.

[strummer6969]

I had a plumber come out the other day and he was showing me pictures on his phone of DIY repairs gone wrong. He's an old timer - been in the plumbing business since before the Internet. He said YouTube has been fantastic for his business.

I imagine the same will occur with whatever industries GPT intends to replace. I'm sure litigators will be happy to charge $700/hr or whatever ungodly sums to deal with problems caused by poorly written documents. Pay a little on the front end or potentially much more later.

It should be interesting how things play out but I think some people greatly underestimate the complexity of the real world.

[gavinsiu]

You can use ChatGPT to come up with a POA, but you need to review the POA generated. If the POA is complicated enough that you need an attorney, I would be hesitate to do this mainly because ChatGPT has no idea if it's summarizing data or generating garbage.

This applies to everything. YOu can use Chatgpt to generate code, but you should test it afterward to make sure it's working, etc.

[Juice3]

In a way, ChatGPT is worse because the output is so smooth and plausible that a reviewer becomes fatigued and numb and lets their guard down.

ChatGPT errors can be much more insidious.

As a fan of 1983's movie wargames, I of course asked ChatGPT to play tic-tac-toe with me. To my amazement, I was able to win 100% of the games. Why you ask? Because ChatGPT let me place my mark on squares it already owned.

ChatGPT knew how to play the game but it did not understand the rules.

I wonder what would have happened if I asked it to play Global Thermonuclear war?

[exodusing]

Many states have statutory form POAs. A POA that doesn't comply can have enforceability issues, no matter how nice it might look to you. That ChatGPT created one without asking for your state is not great. Or it might be perfect, hard to say from here. As others have noted, it's easier for an attorney to revise a form they're familiar with than to review a document created by someone else.

Many law firms have form documents for all sorts of common situations, often with annotations to guide revisions for individual circumstances. This cuts down on errors, time and costs. ChatGPT does not seem a major advance over using statutory or internal boilerplate.

[David Jay]

I wonder what would have happened if I asked it to play Global Thermonuclear war?

“A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.”

[protagonist]

What about this idea?
1. Have ChatGPT write up the legal document, then
2. You review it for obvious errors, then if it looks good,
3. You have an attorney review and edit it (without telling the lawyer that it was AI-generated to avoid prejudice).
4. You do a final review.

The best of both worlds, less chance for error, and you might save money....sort of like how in medicine the intern does the exam and it is then reviewed by the attending MD.

Interesting, but what prejudice would be avoided in No. 3? And if there might be prejudice, shouldn't that be a reason or possibly an obligation to let the attorney know?

Prejudice against a machine that is stealing their job.

That said, other responses here have given good reasons why my strategy would probably not be cost-effective.
I suppose if it was a simple enough thing, and if you have enough confidence in your own abilities (a dangerous thing, as we know from the record of day traders), you could just review it yourself and eliminate the attorney. As with self-medicating vs. seeing a physician, I wouldn't want to attempt that if the stakes are high (even though I am a physician myself).

[RationalWalk]

Many states have statutory form POAs. A POA that doesn't comply can have enforceability issues, no matter how nice it might look to you. That ChatGPT created one without asking for your state is not great. Or it might be perfect, hard to say from here. As others have noted, it's easier for an attorney to revise a form they're familiar with than to review a document created by someone else.

Many law firms have form documents for all sorts of common situations, often with annotations to guide revisions for individual circumstances. This cuts down on errors, time and costs. ChatGPT does not seem a major advance over using statutory or internal boilerplate.

Based on my experience with my mother's POA, I think you might be overestimating the extent to which recipients actually know about, or even try, to enforce POAs. We had an old DPOA drafted in Arizona for my mother when she came to Missouri that we used with her doctors, banks, two assisted living facilities, and a nursing home, and maybe others I don't recall. After a few years when I was dealing with an elder law attorney regarding upcoming Medicaid application, the attorney pointed out that her DPOA was invalid because Missouri requires one signed in Missouri that is no more than 5 or so years dated. Gee Whiz. I guess nobody who was accepting the DPOA all over the place even knew or even spent much time looking it over. A DPOA is only as good as the individual to whom it is presented. Well, I went ahead and had the attorney draft a new, legal DPOA for her and we dragged her a long distance into the attorney's office to sign it in front of a notary and two witnesses. All proper. But we never used it because there was no need.

I'm not as worried about whether all the propers are in place with a legal document, as much as I'm worried about how easy it apparently is to pass off (perhaps inadvertently, perhaps not) an improper document.

[Fallible]

What about this idea?
1. Have ChatGPT write up the legal document, then
2. You review it for obvious errors, then if it looks good,
3. You have an attorney review and edit it (without telling the lawyer that it was AI-generated to avoid prejudice).
4. You do a final review.

The best of both worlds, less chance for error, and you might save money....sort of like how in medicine the intern does the exam and it is then reviewed by the attending MD.

Interesting, but what prejudice would be avoided in No. 3? And if there might be prejudice, shouldn't that be a reason or possibly an obligation to let the attorney know?

Prejudice against a machine that is stealing their job.

That said, other responses here have given good reasons why my strategy would probably not be cost-effective.
I suppose if it was a simple enough thing, and if you have enough confidence in your own abilities (a dangerous thing, as we know from the record of day traders), you could just review it yourself and eliminate the attorney. As with self-medicating vs. seeing a physician, I wouldn't want to attempt that if the stakes are high (even though I am a physician myself).

Overall, I think the many errors made by ChatGPT do obligate one to disclose its use. Then again, it's also possible that in the OP's case, an observant attorney could spot the chatbot use without being told.

[Horologium]

I'm sure litigators will be happy to charge $700/hr or whatever ungodly sums to deal with problems caused by poorly written documents. Pay a little on the front end or potentially much more later.

Well said.

I'm reminded of my (now deceased) brother-in-law. He had a big house in the Chicago area. He decided to move to Florida and was going to rent out the house. I was in my first year of law school (i.e., a looonng time ago ).

He calls me up. He has someone who wants to rent the house, but the two of them got to talking and he's also going give the guy the option to purchase the house at a future point; if he does, a portion of the monthly rent will be credited against the purchase price.

My brother-in-law has a form lease from an office supply store. He wants me to draft "just a short paragraph regarding the option-to-purchase" he can write on the bottom of the lease form. I decline and urge him to go see an atty. He says that I'm already brainwashed into shilling for lawyers. I tell him he is giving up possession of his property, and entering into a business relationship with a stranger. I say it's worth spending a couple of hundred now to ensure he's covered all the bases and is protected.

Needless to say, he ignored me. He drafted the language himself - and got royally screwed by a scammer. The resulting debacle costs him tens of thousands in legal fees and damages. Plus, you cannot put a price on the frustration and hassle of having to deal with a lawsuit in Chicago when you now live in Florida.

But, hey! he saved a couple of hundred dollars on the front end of that deal!

[anon_investor]

I'm sure litigators will be happy to charge $700/hr or whatever ungodly sums to deal with problems caused by poorly written documents. Pay a little on the front end or potentially much more later.

Well said.

I'm reminded of my (now deceased) brother-in-law. He had a big house in the Chicago area. He decided to move to Florida and was going to rent out the house. I was in my first year of law school (i.e., a looonng time ago ).

He calls me up. He has someone who wants to rent the house, but the two of them got to talking and he's also going give the guy the option to purchase the house at a future point; if he does, a portion of the monthly rent will be credited against the purchase price.

My brother-in-law has a form lease from an office supply store. He wants me to draft "just a short paragraph regarding the option-to-purchase" he can write on the bottom of the lease form. I decline and urge him to go see an atty. He says that I'm already brainwashed into shilling for lawyers. I tell him he is giving up possession of his property, and entering into a business relationship with a stranger. I say it's worth spending a couple of hundred now to ensure he's covered all the bases and is protected.

Needless to say, he ignored me. He drafted the language himself - and got royally screwed by a scammer. The resulting debacle costs him tens of thousands in legal fees and damages. Plus, you cannot put a price on the frustration and hassle of having to deal with a lawsuit in Chicago when you now live in Florida.

But, hey! he saved a couple of hundred dollars on the front end of that deal!

I have heard so many similar stories... when friends and family ask me for simialr requests (I am an attorney no longer in private practice), I just give them a referral to a competent attorney I know who may offer a "friends and family" referral discount. Everyone seems to end up happier that way.

Law is an art, template forms aren't always great, chatgpt likely will produce something that may look good to a layman but not accomplish the desired result.

[seawolf21]

What about this idea?
1. Have ChatGPT write up the legal document, then
2. You review it for obvious errors, then if it looks good,
3. You have an attorney review and edit it (without telling the lawyer that it was AI-generated to avoid prejudice).
4. You do a final review.

It takes more time for an attorney to review someone else's document than to generate their own. The problem is that an attorney can't trust an outside document -- he or she has to review every single line. By contrast, the attorney will already know his or her own form, almost by heart.

+1 to bolded section.

Similar to mortgage refinancing during the historical low rates. Refinanced a couple of times and didn't really have to spend time going over the dozen pages of standard mortgage boilerplate language and skipped straight to the changes/exception..

[andypanda]

"I think lots of younger lawyers are already using it for lots of tasks"

But the lawyers have insurance, right?
Does ChatGPT have insurance to cover their mistakes?

[8foot7]

There is a lot of pearl-clutching from the contingent of attorneys who will be most affected by generative AI. Of course, this is true of any industry; the least experienced, least specialized, and entry-level folks will be quickly overtaken by models that don't generate perfect output but generate Good Enough output in 6 seconds. More experienced, senior-level staff can review and troubleshoot.

Much of non-litigation law is template-based and is ripe for the plucking here. Don't shoot the messenger. You don't even really have to believe me. Doesn't make it not true.

[Claudia Whitten]

If I were an attorney, I think I'd be figuring out how I'm going to live in the world of AI. Has anybody else had this experience recently?

The careers of quite a few professions are going to be changed or disrupted by AI. I have a friend who is (was) a translator his entire life until the past few years, when AI stole almost all of his business. Now he's a tour guide in Japan.

PS. Don't make the dot-com era mistake of trying to guess which companies are going to benefit most from AI and investing directly in them. Lots of folks thought, for example, that JDS Uniphase was a sure bet in the late 90s. Stock went from over $300 to, what, basically nothing.

[exodusing]

Many states have statutory form POAs. A POA that doesn't comply can have enforceability issues, no matter how nice it might look to you. That ChatGPT created one without asking for your state is not great. Or it might be perfect, hard to say from here. As others have noted, it's easier for an attorney to revise a form they're familiar with than to review a document created by someone else.

Many law firms have form documents for all sorts of common situations, often with annotations to guide revisions for individual circumstances. This cuts down on errors, time and costs. ChatGPT does not seem a major advance over using statutory or internal boilerplate.

Based on my experience with my mother's POA, I think you might be overestimating the extent to which recipients actually know about, or even try, to enforce POAs. We had an old DPOA drafted in Arizona for my mother when she came to Missouri that we used with her doctors, banks, two assisted living facilities, and a nursing home, and maybe others I don't recall. After a few years when I was dealing with an elder law attorney regarding upcoming Medicaid application, the attorney pointed out that her DPOA was invalid because Missouri requires one signed in Missouri that is no more than 5 or so years dated. Gee Whiz. I guess nobody who was accepting the DPOA all over the place even knew or even spent much time looking it over. A DPOA is only as good as the individual to whom it is presented. Well, I went ahead and had the attorney draft a new, legal DPOA for her and we dragged her a long distance into the attorney's office to sign it in front of a notary and two witnesses. All proper. But we never used it because there was no need.

I'm not as worried about whether all the propers are in place with a legal document, as much as I'm worried about how easy it apparently is to pass off (perhaps inadvertently, perhaps not) an improper document.

If you don't care whether the POA actually legally works in your state, then it really doesn't matter so long as it looks plausible.

[strummer6969]

I'm sure litigators will be happy to charge $700/hr or whatever ungodly sums to deal with problems caused by poorly written documents. Pay a little on the front end or potentially much more later.

Well said.

I'm reminded of my (now deceased) brother-in-law. He had a big house in the Chicago area. He decided to move to Florida and was going to rent out the house. I was in my first year of law school (i.e., a looonng time ago ).

He calls me up. He has someone who wants to rent the house, but the two of them got to talking and he's also going give the guy the option to purchase the house at a future point; if he does, a portion of the monthly rent will be credited against the purchase price.

My brother-in-law has a form lease from an office supply store. He wants me to draft "just a short paragraph regarding the option-to-purchase" he can write on the bottom of the lease form. I decline and urge him to go see an atty. He says that I'm already brainwashed into shilling for lawyers. I tell him he is giving up possession of his property, and entering into a business relationship with a stranger. I say it's worth spending a couple of hundred now to ensure he's covered all the bases and is protected.

Needless to say, he ignored me. He drafted the language himself - and got royally screwed by a scammer. The resulting debacle costs him tens of thousands in legal fees and damages. Plus, you cannot put a price on the frustration and hassle of having to deal with a lawsuit in Chicago when you now live in Florida.

But, hey! he saved a couple of hundred dollars on the front end of that deal!

That's a great example of an asymmetric risk-to-reward (aka penny wise, pound foolish). It always made more sense to me to minimize the need for expensive professionals such as attorneys or MDs (e.g., by avoiding expensive divorces, reckless driving, poor diet and inactive lifestyle, etc). I have to spend more money or time on the front, but it avoids greater costs on the back end. It applies to home maintenance tasks as well (replacing furnace filters, cleaning gutters/downspouts, not pouring grease down the drain, etc). When I actually need a professional, I'm happy to pay for it. These AI tools are great for entertainment and some light research, but the risk-reward in saving a few hundred bucks on professional services is not worth it to me at all. But to each his own.

[Marjimmy]

This has sparked my interested if it is credible to create a prenuptial agreement through the AI....

The only problem is you'd still need a witness to bind the document?

[RationalWalk]

This has sparked my interested if it is credible to create a prenuptial agreement through the AI....

The only problem is you'd still need a witness to bind the document?

Here you go:

ChatGPT
I'm not a lawyer, but I can provide you with a general template for a prenuptial agreement. It's important to consult with a legal professional to ensure that the agreement meets the specific legal requirements in your jurisdiction and addresses your unique circumstances. Prenuptial agreements can vary widely, so you may want to tailor this template to your specific needs.

Prenuptial Agreement

This Prenuptial Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into by and between [Your Name] ("Party A") and [Spouse's Name] ("Party B") on [Date].

Full Disclosure: Party A and Party B acknowledge that they have made a full and fair disclosure to each other of all their respective assets, debts, and financial obligations.

Property Rights:
a. Separate Property: Each party shall retain ownership and control over their separate property, defined as assets and debts acquired before the marriage.

b. Marital Property: Any property acquired during the marriage shall be considered marital property and subject to equitable distribution in the event of divorce.

Financial Support:
a. Spousal Support: Party A and Party B agree that in the event of divorce, neither party shall be entitled to spousal support from the other.
b. Child Support: In the event of divorce, child support shall be determined in accordance with applicable laws and based on the best interests of the child.

Debts:
a. Separate Debts: Each party shall be responsible for their respective pre-marital debts.
b. Marital Debts: Marital debts shall be divided equitably between the parties in the event of divorce.

Estate Planning:
a. Waiver of Rights: Party A and Party B waive any right to an elective share of the other's estate, and neither party shall have any claim to the other's estate, except as provided in this Agreement.

Governing Law: This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of [your state/country].

Modification: This Agreement may only be modified in writing and signed by both parties.

[MrNarwhal]

The tangential but relevant question is how to determine the quality of legal work product. I am not a lawyer but I have some slightly overlapping experience with construction contracts and certain regulatory law. So I could certainly read a legal agreement, but without actually having seen what happens when litigated I don't think I could say definitively that a certain phrasing is "better" - where "better" presumably means more defensible in a legal setting if contested.

So my question for the OP is: why do you think the POA from ChatGPT is better than from your attorney? What qualifications are needed to decide that?

(Legal research seems like possibly the best use case I can see for large language models, so I'm hardly opposed to the idea. But as a personal consumer, the above question stands.)

[Horologium]

That's a great example of an asymmetric risk-to-reward (aka penny wise, pound foolish). It always made more sense to me to minimize the need for expensive professionals such as attorneys or MDs (e.g., by avoiding expensive divorces, reckless driving, poor diet and inactive lifestyle, etc). I have to spend more money or time on the front, but it avoids greater costs on the back end. It applies to home maintenance tasks as well (replacing furnace filters, cleaning gutters/downspouts, not pouring grease down the drain, etc). When I actually need a professional, I'm happy to pay for it. These AI tools are great for entertainment and some light research, but the risk-reward in saving a few hundred bucks on professional services is not worth it to me at all. But to each his own.

Absolutely.

Definite thread drift here, but I am Exhibit A proving your point. I was so busy with my career that I never had time to take care of my health. As I got ready for retirement a couple of years ago, I day dreamed of how I was going to spend my time, the trips I was going to take, etc. Instead, all those years of neglect caught up with me and my health cratered. I have spent an inordinate amount of time (and money) in my retirement losing weight, getting active, undergoing tests, and visiting doctors.

I grouse about it to my primary doc, but he's not very sympathetic. In fact, he likes to remind me that I was in the fast lane to the cemetery and I should be grateful I took the exit before it was too late.

[rob]

The fundamental problem is if you had the expertise to evaluate the ChatGPT work product, you could have written your own POA. And since you don't have that expertise, you still need a lawyer to evaluate and very likely fix the document. So ChatGPT created something that superficially looks good but didn't advance your situation any.

Why should coders be the only ones to lose their jobs? I think AI will figure out these legal bumps in the road in good time.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023 ... -the-craft

Contracts like this are far easier than code... Why do you think the lawyer orgs are going after that company that started using LLM's for people - they have to go after the LLM for "practicing" law without license etc. to protect their profession. It's for the most part easily repeatable.

I am no lawyer but c'mon ... "easily repeatable"? That's a bit of a hyperbole.

A bit sure but far less than people here assume. NOLO has boilerplates, most RE contracts start with a standard contract with minor changes at best. A lot of lawyers doing the same basic work have a starting template they use. The high end complex stuff I'm sure is more of a snowflake but not most of the basic corner street lawyer work.

I'm not a fan of "AI" for general usage but fairly structured & tight words on contracts are right up LLM capabilities and what we see now will evolve quickly (already has if you use the larger models).

[edhaskle]

've been fencing with an attorney for about a month now trying to get a simple, direct, and adequate Limited Real Estate POA written. Maybe it's just the attorney. But I just got the idea to ask ChatGPT to write one for me, and in about 2 seconds there was a nicely crafted document. In many ways, better than the one the attorney has come up with. Yes, this is a pretty simple legal document as things go, and yes, it needed some additional polishing but it was a pretty good effort for $0 and 2 seconds of my time. All I'd need now is to have an attorney put on the finishing touches, if I could get one to do that. I can certainly see how AI in the future is going to be able to handle stuff like this better, faster, and a whole lot cheaper. And be able to handle much more complex documents using an interrogation or interactive mode. Next I'm going to ask it to write me a Will and see what it does. If I were an attorney, I think I'd be figuring out how I'm going to live in the world of AI. Has anybody else had this experience recently?


This is what the world is coming to pretty soon there wont be any more attorneys just a computer screen an a printer in a office.

[strummer6969]

The fundamental problem is if you had the expertise to evaluate the ChatGPT work product, you could have written your own POA. And since you don't have that expertise, you still need a lawyer to evaluate and very likely fix the document. So ChatGPT created something that superficially looks good but didn't advance your situation any.

Why should coders be the only ones to lose their jobs? I think AI will figure out these legal bumps in the road in good time.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023 ... -the-craft

Contracts like this are far easier than code... Why do you think the lawyer orgs are going after that company that started using LLM's for people - they have to go after the LLM for "practicing" law without license etc. to protect their profession. It's for the most part easily repeatable.

I am no lawyer but c'mon ... "easily repeatable"? That's a bit of a hyperbole.

A bit sure but far less than people here assume. NOLO has boilerplates, most RE contracts start with a standard contract with minor changes at best. A lot of lawyers doing the same basic work have a starting template they use. The high end complex stuff I'm sure is more of a snowflake but not most of the basic corner street lawyer work.

I'm not a fan of "AI" for general usage but fairly structured & tight words on contracts are right up LLM capabilities and what we see now will evolve quickly (already has if you use the larger models).

Did you read about that lawyer who cited cases that the LLM hallucinated? Fascinating stuff.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

Much of non-litigation law is template-based and is ripe for the plucking here. Don't shoot the messenger. You don't even really have to believe me. Doesn't make it not true.

What makes it not true is the vast amount of regulatory compliance work that lawyers do. Consider yourself fortunate you evidently have not had to become acquainted with our Byzantine administrative state. Even aside from that, most transactional work like real estate can’t be done by simply downloading some forms. You can look at Legal Zoom now for a good idea of what is supposedly template based (leaving aside the fact that many will use these incorrectly) and it’s a fraction of the non-litigation legal market.

[protagonist]

What about this idea?
1. Have ChatGPT write up the legal document, then
2. You review it for obvious errors, then if it looks good,
3. You have an attorney review and edit it (without telling the lawyer that it was AI-generated to avoid prejudice).
4. You do a final review.

The best of both worlds, less chance for error, and you might save money....sort of like how in medicine the intern does the exam and it is then reviewed by the attending MD.

Interesting, but what prejudice would be avoided in No. 3? And if there might be prejudice, shouldn't that be a reason or possibly an obligation to let the attorney know?

Prejudice against a machine that is stealing their job.

That said, other responses here have given good reasons why my strategy would probably not be cost-effective.
I suppose if it was a simple enough thing, and if you have enough confidence in your own abilities (a dangerous thing, as we know from the record of day traders), you could just review it yourself and eliminate the attorney. As with self-medicating vs. seeing a physician, I wouldn't want to attempt that if the stakes are high (even though I am a physician myself).

Overall, I think the many errors made by ChatGPT do obligate one to disclose its use. Then again, it's also possible that in the OP's case, an observant attorney could spot the chatbot use without being told.

Chat GPT is getting better by leaps and bounds. GPT-4 is a huge improvement over GPT-3. I wonder which iteration OP used. I would not be surprised if a future update would be more accurate than an average attorney.
Maybe a better approach today would be to have GPT-4 proofread the attorney's prepared document, rather than the other way around. It might alert the client to any errors. In fact, I wonder if lawyers are doing that on their own.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

This has sparked my interested if it is credible to create a prenuptial agreement through the AI....

The only problem is you'd still need a witness to bind the document?

Here you go:

ChatGPT
I'm not a lawyer, but I can provide you with a general template for a prenuptial agreement. It's important to consult with a legal professional to ensure that the agreement meets the specific legal requirements in your jurisdiction and addresses your unique circumstances. Prenuptial agreements can vary widely, so you may want to tailor this template to your specific needs.

Prenuptial Agreement

This Prenuptial Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into by and between [Your Name] ("Party A") and [Spouse's Name] ("Party B") on [Date].

Full Disclosure: Party A and Party B acknowledge that they have made a full and fair disclosure to each other of all their respective assets, debts, and financial obligations.

Property Rights:
a. Separate Property: Each party shall retain ownership and control over their separate property, defined as assets and debts acquired before the marriage.

b. Marital Property: Any property acquired during the marriage shall be considered marital property and subject to equitable distribution in the event of divorce.

Financial Support:
a. Spousal Support: Party A and Party B agree that in the event of divorce, neither party shall be entitled to spousal support from the other.
b. Child Support: In the event of divorce, child support shall be determined in accordance with applicable laws and based on the best interests of the child.

Debts:
a. Separate Debts: Each party shall be responsible for their respective pre-marital debts.
b. Marital Debts: Marital debts shall be divided equitably between the parties in the event of divorce.

Estate Planning:
a. Waiver of Rights: Party A and Party B waive any right to an elective share of the other's estate, and neither party shall have any claim to the other's estate, except as provided in this Agreement.

Governing Law: This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of [your state/country].

Modification: This Agreement may only be modified in writing and signed by both parties.

Not valid in my state, which requires both parties to attach detailed financial disclosures and be represented by separate legal counsel. Oops! I won’t even get into the woefully inadequate provisions for non-marital and marital property, which doesn’t appear much better than default law including the ability for non-marital property to pretty easily commingled with marital property.

[strummer6969]

What about this idea?
1. Have ChatGPT write up the legal document, then
2. You review it for obvious errors, then if it looks good,
3. You have an attorney review and edit it (without telling the lawyer that it was AI-generated to avoid prejudice).
4. You do a final review.

The best of both worlds, less chance for error, and you might save money....sort of like how in medicine the intern does the exam and it is then reviewed by the attending MD.

Interesting, but what prejudice would be avoided in No. 3? And if there might be prejudice, shouldn't that be a reason or possibly an obligation to let the attorney know?

Prejudice against a machine that is stealing their job.

That said, other responses here have given good reasons why my strategy would probably not be cost-effective.
I suppose if it was a simple enough thing, and if you have enough confidence in your own abilities (a dangerous thing, as we know from the record of day traders), you could just review it yourself and eliminate the attorney. As with self-medicating vs. seeing a physician, I wouldn't want to attempt that if the stakes are high (even though I am a physician myself).

Overall, I think the many errors made by ChatGPT do obligate one to disclose its use. Then again, it's also possible that in the OP's case, an observant attorney could spot the chatbot use without being told.

Chat GPT is getting better by leaps and bounds. GPT-4 is a huge improvement over GPT-3. I wonder which iteration OP used. I would not be surprised if a future update would be more accurate than an average attorney.

If an attorney makes a bad mistake, at least I have some recourse with their malpractice insurance. What recourse do I have with an LLM?

I've used GPT-4 and it still makes all kinds of silly mistakes. It's pretty impressive when it's right, but when it's a field where I'm not in a position to determine accuracy, the output is completely useless to me.

If the companies that make these LLMs were to stand behind their products in such a way (i.e., to provide a guarantee), I'd be glad to use them for legal documents. Doubtful that will happen. They produce what looks like legal gibberish to me, preceded a disclaimer that it is not legal advice and I need to consult with a lawyer. So what is the point exactly?

[anon_investor]

This has sparked my interested if it is credible to create a prenuptial agreement through the AI....

The only problem is you'd still need a witness to bind the document?

Here you go:

ChatGPT
I'm not a lawyer, but I can provide you with a general template for a prenuptial agreement. It's important to consult with a legal professional to ensure that the agreement meets the specific legal requirements in your jurisdiction and addresses your unique circumstances. Prenuptial agreements can vary widely, so you may want to tailor this template to your specific needs.

Prenuptial Agreement

This Prenuptial Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into by and between [Your Name] ("Party A") and [Spouse's Name] ("Party B") on [Date].

Full Disclosure: Party A and Party B acknowledge that they have made a full and fair disclosure to each other of all their respective assets, debts, and financial obligations.

Property Rights:
a. Separate Property: Each party shall retain ownership and control over their separate property, defined as assets and debts acquired before the marriage.

b. Marital Property: Any property acquired during the marriage shall be considered marital property and subject to equitable distribution in the event of divorce.

Financial Support:
a. Spousal Support: Party A and Party B agree that in the event of divorce, neither party shall be entitled to spousal support from the other.
b. Child Support: In the event of divorce, child support shall be determined in accordance with applicable laws and based on the best interests of the child.

Debts:
a. Separate Debts: Each party shall be responsible for their respective pre-marital debts.
b. Marital Debts: Marital debts shall be divided equitably between the parties in the event of divorce.

Estate Planning:
a. Waiver of Rights: Party A and Party B waive any right to an elective share of the other's estate, and neither party shall have any claim to the other's estate, except as provided in this Agreement.

Governing Law: This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of [your state/country].

Modification: This Agreement may only be modified in writing and signed by both parties.

Not valid in my state, which requires both parties to attach detailed financial disclosures and be represented by separate legal counsel. Oops! I won’t even get into the woefully inadequate provisions for non-marital and marital property, which doesn’t appear much better than default law including the ability for non-marital property to pretty easily commingled with marital property.

A prenup is not something to skimp on. If you really need a prenup, you should get a real attorney and do it right, the savings of using chapgpt is maybe a couple thousand bucks at most, but if done wrong it might cost you hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars.

[retireIn2020]

I used Bing chat AI and asked if it could draft a POA for me. This was its response.

I’m sorry, but I am not authorized to provide legal advice or draft legal documents. However, I can help you find resources to assist you in drafting a power of attorney for the state of "XX".

The XX Department of Revenue provides a form for a power of attorney that you can use to authorize an individual to represent you before the department. You can also consult with an attorney who specializes in estate planning to help you draft a power of attorney that meets your specific needs.

I hope this helps!

Then it provided a link to a Free Power of Attorney form site.

I'm surprised that ChatGPT wrote one for the OP.

[8foot7]

Much of non-litigation law is template-based and is ripe for the plucking here. Don't shoot the messenger. You don't even really have to believe me. Doesn't make it not true.

What makes it not true is the vast amount of regulatory compliance work that lawyers do. Consider yourself fortunate you evidently have not had to become acquainted with our Byzantine administrative state. Even aside from that, most transactional work like real estate can’t be done by simply downloading some forms. You can look at Legal Zoom now for a good idea of what is supposedly template based (leaving aside the fact that many will use these incorrectly) and it’s a fraction of the non-litigation legal market.

Sorry, but you’re missing the point. I didn’t say this was ready now. I’m saying it’s coming to this and many other industries in the very near future. You can only rest on the “but it’s complex!!1” argument for so long and you do so at your own peril.

[nisiprius]

...Sorry, but you’re missing the point. I didn’t say this was ready now. I’m saying it’s coming to this and many other industries in the very near future. You can only rest on the “but it’s complex!!” argument for so long and you do so at your own peril...

You can only rest on the "the future will be here soon!" argument for so long.

[8foot7]

...Sorry, but you’re missing the point. I didn’t say this was ready now. I’m saying it’s coming to this and many other industries in the very near future. You can only rest on the “but it’s complex!!” argument for so long and you do so at your own peril...

You can only rest on the "the future will be here soon!" argument for so long.

OK.

[andypanda]

To paraphrase an old joke.

ChatGPT: I am well versed in the law, lawyers taught me everything I know.

Interviewer: But did they teach you everything they know?

[Marjimmy]

This has sparked my interested if it is credible to create a prenuptial agreement through the AI....

The only problem is you'd still need a witness to bind the document?

Here you go:

ChatGPT
I'm not a lawyer, but I can provide you with a general template for a prenuptial agreement. It's important to consult with a legal professional to ensure that the agreement meets the specific legal requirements in your jurisdiction and addresses your unique circumstances. Prenuptial agreements can vary widely, so you may want to tailor this template to your specific needs.

Prenuptial Agreement

This Prenuptial Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into by and between [Your Name] ("Party A") and [Spouse's Name] ("Party B") on [Date].

Full Disclosure: Party A and Party B acknowledge that they have made a full and fair disclosure to each other of all their respective assets, debts, and financial obligations.

Property Rights:
a. Separate Property: Each party shall retain ownership and control over their separate property, defined as assets and debts acquired before the marriage.

b. Marital Property: Any property acquired during the marriage shall be considered marital property and subject to equitable distribution in the event of divorce.

Financial Support:
a. Spousal Support: Party A and Party B agree that in the event of divorce, neither party shall be entitled to spousal support from the other.
b. Child Support: In the event of divorce, child support shall be determined in accordance with applicable laws and based on the best interests of the child.

Debts:
a. Separate Debts: Each party shall be responsible for their respective pre-marital debts.
b. Marital Debts: Marital debts shall be divided equitably between the parties in the event of divorce.

Estate Planning:
a. Waiver of Rights: Party A and Party B waive any right to an elective share of the other's estate, and neither party shall have any claim to the other's estate, except as provided in this Agreement.

Governing Law: This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of [your state/country].

Modification: This Agreement may only be modified in writing and signed by both parties.

Not valid in my state, which requires both parties to attach detailed financial disclosures and be represented by separate legal counsel. Oops! I won’t even get into the woefully inadequate provisions for non-marital and marital property, which doesn’t appear much better than default law including the ability for non-marital property to pretty easily commingled with marital property.

A prenup is not something to skimp on. If you really need a prenup, you should get a real attorney and do it right, the savings of using chapgpt is maybe a couple thousand bucks at most, but if done wrong it might cost you hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars.

After some thought I agree with you.... Short term loss for long term gain.

[Halicar]

I've been fencing with an attorney for about a month now trying to get a simple, direct, and adequate Limited Real Estate POA written. Maybe it's just the attorney. But I just got the idea to ask ChatGPT to write one for me, and in about 2 seconds there was a nicely crafted document. In many ways, better than the one the attorney has come up with. Yes, this is a pretty simple legal document as things go, and yes, it needed some additional polishing but it was a pretty good effort for $0 and 2 seconds of my time. All I'd need now is to have an attorney put on the finishing touches, if I could get one to do that. I can certainly see how AI in the future is going to be able to handle stuff like this better, faster, and a whole lot cheaper. And be able to handle much more complex documents using an interrogation or interactive mode. Next I'm going to ask it to write me a Will and see what it does. If I were an attorney, I think I'd be figuring out how I'm going to live in the world of AI. Has anybody else had this experience recently?

Your attorney is already using stock forms that get modified to your specific situation. So this basically is you providing the boilerplate to the attorney instead of the attorney using her boilerplate already.

Yeah. I don't think that ChatGPT is going to affect the legal industry much more than Word Perfect already did a few decades ago.

[anon_investor]

I've been fencing with an attorney for about a month now trying to get a simple, direct, and adequate Limited Real Estate POA written. Maybe it's just the attorney. But I just got the idea to ask ChatGPT to write one for me, and in about 2 seconds there was a nicely crafted document. In many ways, better than the one the attorney has come up with. Yes, this is a pretty simple legal document as things go, and yes, it needed some additional polishing but it was a pretty good effort for $0 and 2 seconds of my time. All I'd need now is to have an attorney put on the finishing touches, if I could get one to do that. I can certainly see how AI in the future is going to be able to handle stuff like this better, faster, and a whole lot cheaper. And be able to handle much more complex documents using an interrogation or interactive mode. Next I'm going to ask it to write me a Will and see what it does. If I were an attorney, I think I'd be figuring out how I'm going to live in the world of AI. Has anybody else had this experience recently?

Your attorney is already using stock forms that get modified to your specific situation. So this basically is you providing the boilerplate to the attorney instead of the attorney using her boilerplate already.

Yeah. I don't think that ChatGPT is going to affect the legal industry much more than Word Perfect already did a few decades ago.

Yeah, lawyers will be fine, it is the paralegals that will be impacted. Just like how the need for administrative assistants were greatly reduced by office software.

[RationalWalk]

This has sparked my interested if it is credible to create a prenuptial agreement through the AI....

The only problem is you'd still need a witness to bind the document?

Here you go:

ChatGPT
I'm not a lawyer, but I can provide you with a general template for a prenuptial agreement. It's important to consult with a legal professional to ensure that the agreement meets the specific legal requirements in your jurisdiction and addresses your unique circumstances. Prenuptial agreements can vary widely, so you may want to tailor this template to your specific needs.

Prenuptial Agreement

This Prenuptial Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into by and between [Your Name] ("Party A") and [Spouse's Name] ("Party B") on [Date].

Full Disclosure: Party A and Party B acknowledge that they have made a full and fair disclosure to each other of all their respective assets, debts, and financial obligations.

Property Rights:
a. Separate Property: Each party shall retain ownership and control over their separate property, defined as assets and debts acquired before the marriage.

b. Marital Property: Any property acquired during the marriage shall be considered marital property and subject to equitable distribution in the event of divorce.

Financial Support:
a. Spousal Support: Party A and Party B agree that in the event of divorce, neither party shall be entitled to spousal support from the other.
b. Child Support: In the event of divorce, child support shall be determined in accordance with applicable laws and based on the best interests of the child.

Debts:
a. Separate Debts: Each party shall be responsible for their respective pre-marital debts.
b. Marital Debts: Marital debts shall be divided equitably between the parties in the event of divorce.

Estate Planning:
a. Waiver of Rights: Party A and Party B waive any right to an elective share of the other's estate, and neither party shall have any claim to the other's estate, except as provided in this Agreement.

Governing Law: This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of [your state/country].

Modification: This Agreement may only be modified in writing and signed by both parties.

Not valid in my state, which requires both parties to attach detailed financial disclosures and be represented by separate legal counsel. Oops! I won’t even get into the woefully inadequate provisions for non-marital and marital property, which doesn’t appear much better than default law including the ability for non-marital property to pretty easily commingled with marital property.

You just have to ask the right questions.

"Is there any supporting document that might be needed with a prenup?"

ChatGPT
Supporting documentation for a prenup

When preparing a prenuptial agreement, certain supporting documents and information can be useful to ensure that the agreement is comprehensive and accurately reflects the financial situation of both parties. While the specific requirements may vary depending on local laws and individual circumstances, here are some supporting documents and information that may be needed:

Financial Statements:
Each party should provide a detailed financial statement that includes information about assets, liabilities, income, and expenses. This could include bank statements, investment account statements, real estate documents, and information about any outstanding debts.

List of Assets and Liabilities:
A comprehensive list of each party's assets and liabilities is essential. This includes real estate, vehicles, bank accounts, retirement accounts, business interests, and any debts.

Income Documentation:
Recent pay stubs or income tax returns can be used to verify each party's income. This is particularly important if spousal support or alimony provisions are included in the prenuptial agreement.

Business Valuations:
If one or both parties own a business, a business valuation may be necessary to determine its worth. This can be important for defining how the business will be treated in the event of divorce.

Appraisals of Assets:
For valuable assets like real estate or valuable personal property, obtaining professional appraisals can help determine their current market value.

Debt Documentation:
Documentation of any outstanding debts, such as mortgages, car loans, or credit card balances, should be included in the prenuptial agreement.

Legal Advice:
It's advisable for each party to seek independent legal advice during the creation of the prenuptial agreement. This helps ensure that both parties fully understand the agreement and that it meets legal requirements.

Full Disclosure:
Both parties should fully disclose all relevant financial information. Failure to provide complete and accurate information could potentially lead to the agreement being challenged in the future.

Counseling and Understanding:
Some jurisdictions may require evidence that both parties entered into the prenuptial agreement willingly and with a full understanding of its implications. This might involve a waiting period, counseling, or other legal requirements.

Notarization and Witnesses:
Depending on local laws, the prenuptial agreement may need to be notarized, and witnesses may be required.
It's essential to consult with a family law attorney to understand the specific requirements and legalities in your jurisdiction. Additionally, seeking legal advice helps ensure that the prenuptial agreement is fair, enforceable, and meets the needs and intentions of both parties.

[Dregob]

I've been fencing with an attorney for about a month now trying to get a simple, direct, and adequate Limited Real Estate POA written. Maybe it's just the attorney. But I just got the idea to ask ChatGPT to write one for me, and in about 2 seconds there was a nicely crafted document. In many ways, better than the one the attorney has come up with. Yes, this is a pretty simple legal document as things go, and yes, it needed some additional polishing but it was a pretty good effort for $0 and 2 seconds of my time. All I'd need now is to have an attorney put on the finishing touches, if I could get one to do that. I can certainly see how AI in the future is going to be able to handle stuff like this better, faster, and a whole lot cheaper. And be able to handle much more complex documents using an interrogation or interactive mode. Next I'm going to ask it to write me a Will and see what it does. If I were an attorney, I think I'd be figuring out how I'm going to live in the world of AI. Has anybody else had this experience recently?

Did ChatGPT give itself power of attorney. Just kidding....kind of.

[Fallible]

Interesting, but what prejudice would be avoided in No. 3? And if there might be prejudice, shouldn't that be a reason or possibly an obligation to let the attorney know?

Prejudice against a machine that is stealing their job.

That said, other responses here have given good reasons why my strategy would probably not be cost-effective.
I suppose if it was a simple enough thing, and if you have enough confidence in your own abilities (a dangerous thing, as we know from the record of day traders), you could just review it yourself and eliminate the attorney. As with self-medicating vs. seeing a physician, I wouldn't want to attempt that if the stakes are high (even though I am a physician myself).

Overall, I think the many errors made by ChatGPT do obligate one to disclose its use. Then again, it's also possible that in the OP's case, an observant attorney could spot the chatbot use without being told.

Chat GPT is getting better by leaps and bounds. GPT-4 is a huge improvement over GPT-3. I wonder which iteration OP used. I would not be surprised if a future update would be more accurate than an average attorney.

If an attorney makes a bad mistake, at least I have some recourse with their malpractice insurance. What recourse do I have with an LLM?

I've used GPT-4 and it still makes all kinds of silly mistakes. It's pretty impressive when it's right, but when it's a field where I'm not in a position to determine accuracy, the output is completely useless to me.

If the companies that make these LLMs were to stand behind their products in such a way (i.e., to provide a guarantee), I'd be glad to use them for legal documents. Doubtful that will happen. They produce what looks like legal gibberish to me, preceded a disclaimer that it is not legal advice and I need to consult with a lawyer. So what is the point exactly?

I think generally the Big-Picture point for the OP and for all users of these early chatbots is a healthy skepticism, common sense, tempering bias (for and against the bots) by being well informed as much as possible about them and about the goals and motives of their creators. These same powerful human abilities will always be needed as chatbots develop (still talk of GPT-5 and 6 but no timetable I've seen).

[anon_investor]

This has sparked my interested if it is credible to create a prenuptial agreement through the AI....

The only problem is you'd still need a witness to bind the document?

Here you go:

ChatGPT
I'm not a lawyer, but I can provide you with a general template for a prenuptial agreement. It's important to consult with a legal professional to ensure that the agreement meets the specific legal requirements in your jurisdiction and addresses your unique circumstances. Prenuptial agreements can vary widely, so you may want to tailor this template to your specific needs.

Prenuptial Agreement

This Prenuptial Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into by and between [Your Name] ("Party A") and [Spouse's Name] ("Party B") on [Date].

Full Disclosure: Party A and Party B acknowledge that they have made a full and fair disclosure to each other of all their respective assets, debts, and financial obligations.

Property Rights:
a. Separate Property: Each party shall retain ownership and control over their separate property, defined as assets and debts acquired before the marriage.

b. Marital Property: Any property acquired during the marriage shall be considered marital property and subject to equitable distribution in the event of divorce.

Financial Support:
a. Spousal Support: Party A and Party B agree that in the event of divorce, neither party shall be entitled to spousal support from the other.
b. Child Support: In the event of divorce, child support shall be determined in accordance with applicable laws and based on the best interests of the child.

Debts:
a. Separate Debts: Each party shall be responsible for their respective pre-marital debts.
b. Marital Debts: Marital debts shall be divided equitably between the parties in the event of divorce.

Estate Planning:
a. Waiver of Rights: Party A and Party B waive any right to an elective share of the other's estate, and neither party shall have any claim to the other's estate, except as provided in this Agreement.

Governing Law: This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of [your state/country].

Modification: This Agreement may only be modified in writing and signed by both parties.

Not valid in my state, which requires both parties to attach detailed financial disclosures and be represented by separate legal counsel. Oops! I won’t even get into the woefully inadequate provisions for non-marital and marital property, which doesn’t appear much better than default law including the ability for non-marital property to pretty easily commingled with marital property.

You just have to ask the right questions.

"Is there any supporting document that might be needed with a prenup?"

ChatGPT
Supporting documentation for a prenup

When preparing a prenuptial agreement, certain supporting documents and information can be useful to ensure that the agreement is comprehensive and accurately reflects the financial situation of both parties. While the specific requirements may vary depending on local laws and individual circumstances, here are some supporting documents and information that may be needed:

Financial Statements:
Each party should provide a detailed financial statement that includes information about assets, liabilities, income, and expenses. This could include bank statements, investment account statements, real estate documents, and information about any outstanding debts.

List of Assets and Liabilities:
A comprehensive list of each party's assets and liabilities is essential. This includes real estate, vehicles, bank accounts, retirement accounts, business interests, and any debts.

Income Documentation:
Recent pay stubs or income tax returns can be used to verify each party's income. This is particularly important if spousal support or alimony provisions are included in the prenuptial agreement.

Business Valuations:
If one or both parties own a business, a business valuation may be necessary to determine its worth. This can be important for defining how the business will be treated in the event of divorce.

Appraisals of Assets:
For valuable assets like real estate or valuable personal property, obtaining professional appraisals can help determine their current market value.

Debt Documentation:
Documentation of any outstanding debts, such as mortgages, car loans, or credit card balances, should be included in the prenuptial agreement.

Legal Advice:
It's advisable for each party to seek independent legal advice during the creation of the prenuptial agreement. This helps ensure that both parties fully understand the agreement and that it meets legal requirements.

Full Disclosure:
Both parties should fully disclose all relevant financial information. Failure to provide complete and accurate information could potentially lead to the agreement being challenged in the future.

Counseling and Understanding:
Some jurisdictions may require evidence that both parties entered into the prenuptial agreement willingly and with a full understanding of its implications. This might involve a waiting period, counseling, or other legal requirements.

Notarization and Witnesses:
Depending on local laws, the prenuptial agreement may need to be notarized, and witnesses may be required.
It's essential to consult with a family law attorney to understand the specific requirements and legalities in your jurisdiction. Additionally, seeking legal advice helps ensure that the prenuptial agreement is fair, enforceable, and meets the needs and intentions of both parties.

This doesn't resolve the issue that in most jurisdictions both parties have to be represented by attorneys to make the prenup enforceable. ChatGPT isn't going to save you any money on a pre-nup.

[nisiprius]

Since a) I actually wanted my work checked on a physics problem I attempted in another thread, and since b) I like to do reality checks on how quickly the problems in GPT, so evident last year, are being solved, I asked Bing Chat:

How long does it take to raise 16 ounces of water from room temperature to the boiling point using 1800 watts of power?

Bing Chat produced a correct and clear explanation of how to do the calculation, concluding with

Substituting these values into the formula, we get:



Calculating this will give us the time in seconds. Remember to convert it to minutes or hours if needed.

But it didn't do the calculation. So I asked it to:



In actual fact, an ordinary Google "search" gives us the correct answer:



So the well-known problems with GPT making ludicrous errors in calculations have been "solved" by having it not volunteer answers to numeric calculations.

[protagonist]

Since a) I actually wanted my work checked on a physics problem I attempted in another thread, and since b) I like to do reality checks on how quickly the problems in GPT, so evident last year, are being solved, I asked Bing Chat:

How long does it take to raise 16 ounces of water from room temperature to the boiling point using 1800 watts of power?

Bing Chat produced a correct and clear explanation of how to do the calculation, concluding with

Substituting these values into the formula, we get:



Calculating this will give us the time in seconds. Remember to convert it to minutes or hours if needed.

But it didn't do the calculation. So I asked it to:



In actual fact, an ordinary Google "search" gives us the correct answer:



So the well-known problems with GPT making ludicrous errors in calculations have been "solved" by having it not volunteer answers to numeric calculations.

Did you ask because you just bought one of these like I did?: https://www.amazon.com/Duxtop-1800-Watt ... r=8-3&th=1

I imagine it must take longer in reality because of resistance of cookware, distance from coil, surface area, etc. I haven't tested it, nor do I know if it really produces 1800 W power at its highest setting.
I wish I didn't go to that url, because I found I paid $3 more a few days ago for the same product.

I wonder how Bing screwed that simple calculation up so badly.

[RationalWalk]

ChatGPT
The time it takes to raise the temperature of water depends on several factors, including the initial temperature of the water, the surrounding environment, and the efficiency of the heating system. However, I can provide a rough estimate using a simplified calculation.

The specific heat capacity of water is approximately 4.184 joules per gram per degree Celsius. Since you have 16 ounces of water, which is roughly 473.18 grams (1 ounce is approximately 28.35 grams), and you want to raise the temperature from room temperature (let's assume 20 degrees Celsius) to the boiling point (100 degrees Celsius), you need to calculate the energy required:

[Calculations cannot be copied]

So, it would take approximately 88.29 seconds to raise 16 ounces of water from room temperature to the boiling point using 1800 watts of power. Keep in mind that this is a simplified calculation and doesn't account for heat losses to the surroundings or variations in heating efficiency. Actual times may vary.

[Finridge]

Don't trust ChatGPT. I use ChatGPT daily. The output always *looks* good, even when it isn't. Unless you are a lawyer, you won't even know when it's taking down the wrong path or missing something.

[nisiprius]

... it didn't do the calculation. So I asked it to:



In actual fact, an ordinary Google "search" gives us the correct answer

I wonder how Bing screwed that simple calculation up so badly.

I can't reverse engineer the blunder. I thought it had gotten exactly half the correct answer, but no.

By the way, calculations are within Bing Chat's remit:

Can Bing Chat help me with calculations?

Yes, I can certainly assist with calculations. Whether it’s simple arithmetic, algebra, or more complex mathematical problems, I’m here to help. Please provide the details of the calculation you need assistance with.

I didn't have the old session open so I re-entered the question, and again got the correct expression in a very slightly different form, but again it did not volunteer a numerical answer. So this time, I asked it "Could you rewrite that formula inline as an Excel formula?" and it replied

"Sure, here’s how you can write the formula in Excel:
= (474 * 4.186 * 75) / 1800

I asked "Could you do the calculation for me?" and this time it replied

Sure, let’s do the calculation:

We have:

Mass of water, m = 474 g
Specific heat capacity of water, c = 4.186 J/g°C
Change in temperature, ΔT = 75°C
Power of the heating element, P = 1800 W
Substituting these values into the formula t = (m * c * ΔT) / P, we get:

t = (474 g * 4.186 J/g°C * 75°C) / 1800 W

Calculating this gives us t ≈ 93.59 seconds.

Again, a wrong answer. And notice that it is a completely different wrong answer from yesterday's wrong answer.

It did this even though if I do a Bing "search" on calculate (474 * 4.186 * 75) / 1800 it gives me the correct answer of "82.7635."

This can't be a trivial issue. These chatbots have been bungling arithmetic for a year, and it hasn't occurred to anyone to put a Microsoft BASIC interpreter into GPT and have it use it for any numeric expression that BASIC accepts?

Heaven help us if anyone tries to use these chatbots to draw up legal contracts with numeric values in them.

[protagonist]

... it didn't do the calculation. So I asked it to:



In actual fact, an ordinary Google "search" gives us the correct answer

I wonder how Bing screwed that simple calculation up so badly.

I can't reverse engineer the blunder. I thought it had gotten exactly half the correct answer, but no.

By the way, calculations are within Bing Chat's remit:

Can Bing Chat help me with calculations?

Yes, I can certainly assist with calculations. Whether it’s simple arithmetic, algebra, or more complex mathematical problems, I’m here to help. Please provide the details of the calculation you need assistance with.

I didn't have the old session open so I re-entered the question, and again got the correct expression in a very slightly different form, but again it did not volunteer a numerical answer. So this time, I asked it "Could you rewrite that formula inline as an Excel formula?" and it replied

"Sure, here’s how you can write the formula in Excel:
= (474 * 4.186 * 75) / 1800

I asked "Could you do the calculation for me?" and this time it replied

Sure, let’s do the calculation:

We have:

Mass of water, m = 474 g
Specific heat capacity of water, c = 4.186 J/g°C
Change in temperature, ΔT = 75°C
Power of the heating element, P = 1800 W
Substituting these values into the formula t = (m * c * ΔT) / P, we get:

t = (474 g * 4.186 J/g°C * 75°C) / 1800 W

Calculating this gives us t ≈ 93.59 seconds.

Again, a wrong answer. And notice that it is a completely different wrong answer from yesterday's wrong answer.

It did this even though if I do a Bing "search" on calculate (474 * 4.186 * 75) / 1800 it gives me the correct answer of "82.7635."

This can't be a trivial issue. These chatbots have been bungling arithmetic for a year, and it hasn't occurred to anyone to put a Microsoft BASIC interpreter into GPT and have it use it for any numeric expression that BASIC accepts?

Heaven help us if anyone tries to use these chatbots to draw up legal contracts with numeric values in them.

That's kind of funny actually, since a vintage 1967 Friden calculator would have flawlessly gotten the right answer in a second.
(I will have to time the 1800W Duxtop induction cooktop to see how close it comes....my guess is it will take a fair bit longer due to several variables but if I want to waste some time foolishly I will check sometime in the future).

[RationalWalk]

Please solve for t = (474 g * 4.186 J/g°C * 75°C) / 1800 W


ChatGPT
Certainly! Let's break down the calculation step by step:

t=(474g × 4.186J/g°C × 75°C)/1800W


First, perform the multiplication in the numerator:

t= (474 × 4.186 × 75)/ 1800

Now, multiply the numbers:

t =149,197/ 180
​

Finally, perform the division:

t ≈ 82.887s

So, t ≈ 82.887s.

Question: Why is anybody using Bing Chat?

[LilyFleur]

Nolo.com has had boilerplates online for years. Including POA for finance, health care, and real estate.

I see that, but it costs $19.95 and isn't any better than the one I got for free from ChatGPT.

But Nolo's products have been reviewed by attorneys before you buy them. I trust Nolo more than I trust ChatGPT.