International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

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SpanishInquisition
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SpanishInquisition »

SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:53 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:11 pm
I don’t see anything resembling an axiom that markets are efficient. I am an EMH guy, and yet I would never accept that as an axiom. I that is what needs to be proven in order for the hypothesis to hold, and , even as an EMHer, Id know that the evidence is mixed.
Saying that the evidence is mixed is a huge mischaracterization.
I will let Eugene Fama and Richard Thaler tell you about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9bYOBuKF4
Here, maybe do some book learning. The evidence is mixed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient ... hypothesis

Criticism

Price-Earnings ratios as a predictor of twenty-year returns based upon the plot by Robert Shiller (Figure 10.1,[21] source). The horizontal axis shows the real price-earnings ratio of the S&P Composite Stock Price Index as computed in Irrational Exuberance (inflation adjusted price divided by the prior ten-year mean of inflation-adjusted earnings). The vertical axis shows the geometric average real annual return on investing in the S&P Composite Stock Price Index, reinvesting dividends, and selling twenty years later. Data from different twenty-year periods is color-coded as shown in the key. See also ten-year returns. Shiller states that this plot "confirms that long-term investors—investors who commit their money to an investment for ten full years—did do well when prices were low relative to earnings at the beginning of the ten years. Long-term investors would be well advised, individually, to lower their exposure to the stock market when it is high, as it has been recently, and get into the market when it is low."[21] Burton Malkiel, a well-known proponent of the general validity of EMH, stated that this correlation may be consistent with an efficient market due to differences in interest rates.[22]

Investors, including the likes of Warren Buffett,[23] George Soros,[24][25] and researchers have disputed the efficient-market hypothesis both empirically and theoretically. Behavioral economists attribute the imperfections in financial markets to a combination of cognitive biases such as overconfidence, overreaction, representative bias, information bias, and various other predictable human errors in reasoning and information processing. These have been researched by psychologists such as Daniel Kahneman, Amos Tversky and Paul Slovic and economist Richard Thaler.

Empirical evidence has been mixed, but has generally not supported strong forms of the efficient-market hypothesis.[26][27][28] According to Dreman and Berry, in a 1995 paper, low P/E (price-to-earnings) stocks have greater returns.[29] In an earlier paper, Dreman also refuted the assertion by Ray Ball that these higher returns could be attributed to higher beta,[clarification needed];[30] Dreman's research had been accepted by efficient market theorists as explaining the anomaly[31] in neat accordance with modern portfolio theory.
Last edited by SpanishInquisition on Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SB1234
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SB1234 »

SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:59 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:53 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:11 pm
I don’t see anything resembling an axiom that markets are efficient. I am an EMH guy, and yet I would never accept that as an axiom. I that is what needs to be proven in order for the hypothesis to hold, and , even as an EMHer, Id know that the evidence is mixed.
Saying that the evidence is mixed is a huge mischaracterization.
I will let Eugene Fama and Richard Thaler tell you about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9bYOBuKF4
Here, maybe do some book learning. The evidence is mixed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient ... hypothesis
Are you sure you're an EMHer :D
anecdotes are not data
SpanishInquisition
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SpanishInquisition »

SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:02 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:59 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:53 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:11 pm
I don’t see anything resembling an axiom that markets are efficient. I am an EMH guy, and yet I would never accept that as an axiom. I that is what needs to be proven in order for the hypothesis to hold, and , even as an EMHer, Id know that the evidence is mixed.
Saying that the evidence is mixed is a huge mischaracterization.
I will let Eugene Fama and Richard Thaler tell you about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9bYOBuKF4
Here, maybe do some book learning. The evidence is mixed.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient ... hypothesis
Are you sure you're an EMHer :D
I am!! But I try to consider both sides of the argument. :-)
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SB1234
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SB1234 »

SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:04 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:02 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:59 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:53 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:11 pm
I don’t see anything resembling an axiom that markets are efficient. I am an EMH guy, and yet I would never accept that as an axiom. I that is what needs to be proven in order for the hypothesis to hold, and , even as an EMHer, Id know that the evidence is mixed.
Saying that the evidence is mixed is a huge mischaracterization.
I will let Eugene Fama and Richard Thaler tell you about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9bYOBuKF4
Here, maybe do some book learning. The evidence is mixed.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient ... hypothesis
Are you sure you're an EMHer :D
I am!! But I try to consider both sides of the argument. :-)
Yeah Fama developed EMH and Thaler is a proponent of Behavioral Economics. Both are Nobel winners. Both saying markets are efficient is enough for me. Good luck.
anecdotes are not data
SpanishInquisition
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SpanishInquisition »

SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:11 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:04 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:02 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:59 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:53 pm
Saying that the evidence is mixed is a huge mischaracterization.
I will let Eugene Fama and Richard Thaler tell you about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9bYOBuKF4
Here, maybe do some book learning. The evidence is mixed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient ... hypothesis
Are you sure you're an EMHer :D
I am!! But I try to consider both sides of the argument. :-)
Yeah Fama developed EMH and Thaler is a proponent of Behavioral Economics. Both are Nobel winners. Both saying markets are efficient is enough for me. Good luck.
Thank you for the video. I am editing this post after watching the video in full. It was great, though I don’t think it stands for the proposition for which you presented it, other than to say retail investors are best off being passive investors and using indexing, a matter upon which we both agree strongly anyway. Otherwise, the video is chock full of discussions and examples of market inefficiencies, by two incredibly strong proponents of the efficient market hypothesis!!

As is discussed in the video, an axiom is a theoretical assumption, my friend. A hypothesis is by definition a matter subject to factual scrutiny, for predictive power, and not to be assumed, and the research shows that no market is completely efficient. I suspect that as a factual matter you and I would strongly agree, with respect to U.S markets. As to certain international markets, I am uncertain or even dubious as to whether EMH is justified or not, and that bothers me. :-)

This, again, has implications for international diversification, in my view, though I am a global market capper.

I note that in the video, the two briefly at one point very much appear to agree that there are inefficiencies in smaller international markets that present opportunities to active managers, but that the active mangers still don’t seem to be able to beat those market indexes after costs, or to demonstrate an ability to predict the markets. So, as a global market capper, I find that encouraging.
Last edited by SpanishInquisition on Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:01 pm, edited 8 times in total.
james22
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by james22 »

CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:49 pmSo I'm really not trying to be difficult, but are you saying,

Starting tomorrow, US will Out-perform Int'l, because ????
You list a number of reasons the 100% US'rs give (exceptionalism, structure, government support, etc.) to explain US outperformance and why it'll continue.

You didn't include technology leadership.

If one does, and recognizes the accelerating nature of tech, one believes why US outperformance will only widen.


And it's not just that Valuations Don't Matter (unreliable, etc.), it's that It's Different This Time makes historical measures of Valuation meaningless.

Or even that International has outperformed in the past - future outperformance will go to tech leadership.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by HomerJ »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:44 am
HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:39 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:09 pm Yeah. Logically inconsistent. You wouldn't tell the US only investor he destroyed his retirement and took terrible advice from HomerJ because he didn't go all in on Emerging Market stocks instead and therefore lost out on a massive amount of money.
Ah, but here's the difference...

I'm not giving any advice. I'm not telling anyone what I think will be the big winner next decade.

You are. You have been since 2014. It's just math, it's logical, it's the pattern. You've been trying to convince people that ex-US is the way to go for 10 years.

All I'm saying is no one knows. You're the one predicting the future. I'm just pointing out that past predictions have failed more often that not, so beware the predictors.

That's really it.
How is discussing my opinion giving anyone advice anymore than what you’re doing?

You’re convinced valuation doesn’t matter. If someone takes your advice and we go through a Japan scenario despite “cape has been high in US and returns were good”, that’d be unfortunate
No where have I ever said that I think US will continue to outperform International. My ongoing and consistent position is that I don't know what's going to happen. And that you don't either. In fact, I said it again in the post you just quoted.

You HAVE said International is likely to outperform US at some point because of valuations and "expected" returns, and "reversion to the mean", and currency reasons, etc. etc. etc.

All kinds of logical reasonable reasons for one to tilt to International.

I only point out that many of those reasons existed 6+ years ago, and we still haven't seen the out-performance, so I warn people that market-timing isn't as easy as many here present it. But in no way am I saying that we WON'T see International out-performance. We absolutely might.

I'm just saying looking at valuations isn't enough information to predict the future accurately enough to profit from it. Because it's not enough to just have signals telling you International is poised to out-perform US. You have to know fairly close to WHEN, and the signals don't offer that information.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by HomerJ »

CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:19 am How would this reconcile with "Valuations don't matter"
I still submit that you should change that to "Valuations aren't actionable" which is more accurate and harder to dismiss.

Valuations can matter and still be not worth much as an investing signal because timing is important, and valuations don't offer any information on that front.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:38 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:44 am
HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:39 am
Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:09 pm Yeah. Logically inconsistent. You wouldn't tell the US only investor he destroyed his retirement and took terrible advice from HomerJ because he didn't go all in on Emerging Market stocks instead and therefore lost out on a massive amount of money.
Ah, but here's the difference...

I'm not giving any advice. I'm not telling anyone what I think will be the big winner next decade.

You are. You have been since 2014. It's just math, it's logical, it's the pattern. You've been trying to convince people that ex-US is the way to go for 10 years.

All I'm saying is no one knows. You're the one predicting the future. I'm just pointing out that past predictions have failed more often that not, so beware the predictors.

That's really it.
How is discussing my opinion giving anyone advice anymore than what you’re doing?

You’re convinced valuation doesn’t matter. If someone takes your advice and we go through a Japan scenario despite “cape has been high in US and returns were good”, that’d be unfortunate
No where have I ever said that I think US will continue to outperform International. My ongoing and consistent position is that I don't know what's going to happen. And that you don't either. In fact, I said it again in the post you just quoted.

You HAVE said International is likely to outperform US at some point because of valuations and "expected" returns, and "reversion to the mean", and currency reasons, etc. etc. etc.

All kinds of logical reasonable reasons for one to tilt to International.

I only point out that many of those reasons existed 6+ years ago, and we still haven't seen the out-performance, so I warn people that market-timing isn't as easy as many here present it. But in no way am I saying that we WON'T see International out-performance. We absolutely might.

I'm just saying looking at valuations isn't enough information to predict the future accurately enough to profit from it. Because it's not enough to just have signals telling you International is poised to out-perform US. You have to know fairly close to WHEN, and the signals don't offer that information.
If you don't know what's going to happen, why are you so sure that being an investor that chooses a 100% US allocation and "stays the course" is making a good decision just because US market has done fine when CAPE has maintained its relative highness?

You use this continually as evidence that valuations don't matter, completely ignoring the broader set of data across other time periods and countries.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SB1234 »

SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:20 pm .As to certain international markets, I am uncertain or even dubious as to whether EMH is justified or not, and that bothers me.
Unless you're using active funds it's not possible to exploit any supposed inefficiencies in foreign markets.

If you use index funds (like vxus, vti etc) and you acknowledge that US markets are efficient, (weakly even) then the only logical conclusion is that there is no mispricing w.r.t foreign markets as reflected in the price for ex-us index funds. Weak emh asserts that all older PE info in incorporated in the price.

Either you accept markets are efficient ( weak emh ) and prices are right or you accept that markets are inefficient (not.even weak emh)and there is current mispricing.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by SB1234 »

HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:42 pm
CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:19 am How would this reconcile with "Valuations don't matter"
I still submit that you should change that to "Valuations aren't actionable" which is more accurate and harder to dismiss.

Valuations can matter and still be not worth much as an investing signal because timing is important, and valuations don't offer any information on that front.
I second this proposal.
I also feel that "valuations don't matter" is deprecating. Because it portrays us-only investors as cavalier.
Cavalier: showing a lack of proper concern; offhand.
anecdotes are not data
SpanishInquisition
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SpanishInquisition »

SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:51 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:20 pm .As to certain international markets, I am uncertain or even dubious as to whether EMH is justified or not, and that bothers me.
Unless you're using active funds it's not possible to exploit any supposed inefficiencies in foreign markets.

If you use index funds (like vxus, vti etc) and you acknowledge that US markets are efficient, (weakly even) then the only logical conclusion is that there is no mispricing w.r.t foreign markets as reflected in the price for ex-us index funds. Weak emh asserts that all older PE info in incorporated in the price.

Either you accept markets are efficient ( weak emh ) and prices are right or you accept that markets are inefficient (not.even weak emh)and there is current mispricing.
No!

Watch the video that you yourself posted!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9bYOBuKF4

But it’s okay, I am learning legitimately helpful stuff I didn’t know, which is cool. I appreciate the give and take.

I’m out for today, I’ve got to travel tomorrow, so I’ve got to get ready. Take care. :-)
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments

Post by SB1234 »

SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:57 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:51 pm
SpanishInquisition wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:20 pm .As to certain international markets, I am uncertain or even dubious as to whether EMH is justified or not, and that bothers me.
Unless you're using active funds it's not possible to exploit any supposed inefficiencies in foreign markets.

If you use index funds (like vxus, vti etc) and you acknowledge that US markets are efficient, (weakly even) then the only logical conclusion is that there is no mispricing w.r.t foreign markets as reflected in the price for ex-us index funds. Weak emh asserts that all older PE info in incorporated in the price.

Either you accept markets are efficient ( weak emh ) and prices are right or you accept that markets are inefficient (not.even weak emh)and there is current mispricing.
No!

Watch the video that you yourself posted!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM9bYOBuKF4

But it’s okay, I am learning legitimately helpful stuff I didn’t know, which is cool. I appreciate the give and take.

I’m out for today, I’ve got to travel tomorrow, so I’ve got to get ready. Take care. :-)
Safe travels. :sharebeer
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by HomerJ »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:58 pm If you don't know what's going to happen, why are you so sure that being an investor that chooses a 100% US allocation and "stays the course" is making a good decision just because US market has done fine when CAPE has maintained its relative highness?
I have said that that I don't know (no one does) what's going to happen, in the short to medium term. And without correct TIMING, market-TIMING doesn't work to increase one's returns.

So far, in the long-run (20-30 years), just holding all the way down, and all the way back up in the US market, one has still made decent money, so I point out that, so far, the fact that market-timing is hard doesn't matter, because it hasn't been necessary to time the market to still get good returns. Buy and hold works. The long-term US stock market returns INCLUDES all the crashes. Same for International really, although possibly the cycles are longer (30-40 years so far?)

I'm pretty good (although probably not perfect) at using past tense. I often add the disclaimer "Will this continue? No idea. No guarantees, but so far..."
You use this continually as evidence that valuations don't matter, completely ignoring the broader set of data across other time periods and countries.
You may be right there. I do only look at the US historical data when talking about past US returns. I suppose the US could have a 40-50 year down period like other countries have experienced. That's possible. But as 60% of the market-cap, the largest economy in the world, and owner of the world reserve currency, I'm not sure how to quantify the risk. Plus you also need to know the odds that the full basket of International would do better than the US in a long prolonged global depression like that.

All I'm really saying is most past real-time predictions based on CAPE and valuations have not worked out well. It's not a good market-timing tool. So using valuations and CAPE as reasons to change your allocation to tilt towards International hasn't worked that well in the past, so don't count on it working this time.

Although it certainly might work this time. But you guys act like making changes based on valuations works well and always is the smart move. But, so far, it hasn't worked that great in real-time, real-life scenarios (Everything works great in back-test scenarios).
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:42 pm
CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:19 am How would this reconcile with "Valuations don't matter"
I still submit that you should change that to "Valuations aren't actionable" which is more accurate and harder to dismiss.

Valuations can matter and still be not worth much as an investing signal because timing is important, and valuations don't offer any information on that front.
The more diversified you are, the less you have to care about valuations. They still matter. They still have a relationship with returns. But you're far less likely to be solely exposed to any one country doing poorly if it runs into a period of strong and sustained valuation contraction.

Someone investing in Japan, seeing that it was the largest country by market cap and had thriving businesses that were more competitive than anyone globally, could have looked at their meteoric rise in the 80s and said, "why do I need anything else? Japan is good enough". We hear the same arguments on this board for 100% US investing.

So, the actionable thing would be if you are NOT globally diversified and are 100% US TSM....don't just "stay the course" hoping for a better tomorrow. It may not come during your horizon. It hasn't for other countries. But this would break your rule of "never making any changes to asset allocations based on timing"
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by abuss368 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:26 pm Being early in exUS hasn't been terrible. It's not like you got a negative real return. The sharpe ratio wasn't ideal, but it hasn't been catastrophic.
Hi Nathan -

I would agree with that assessment. I too would like to see International Stocks and Bonds have some time in the sun.

I think that would make investors happy and dial down the intensity of many threads on the forum!

Hope you are well.
Tony
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Beensabu »

james22 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:45 pm
km91 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:48 pm So 2022 was the trigger year then?
Sure, if you define outperformance by losing less in a single bad year.

I don't believe most would define it that way. It'll be different for everyone, of course.
If that's the case, then it would have been 2017. Or would that be considered pre-tech?
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Beensabu »

CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:18 pm I'll let others weigh in, but I have not been impressed with Morningstar's analysis so far.....
I think it's fine, once you realize that the currency effect is baked into their numbers.

Like everything, context is important.

I would be really interested in seeing their analysis for a period that doesn't include 2011, if that exists somewhere. Maybe next year.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic interchange regarding Japan's global competitiveness. The discussion was derailed. As a reminder, see: Non-actionable or Trolling Topics
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Beensabu »

Oh man... I missed it...
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by CraigTester »

james22 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:31 pm
CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:49 pmSo I'm really not trying to be difficult, but are you saying,

Starting tomorrow, US will Out-perform Int'l, because ????
You list a number of reasons the 100% US'rs give (exceptionalism, structure, government support, etc.) to explain US outperformance and why it'll continue.

You didn't include technology leadership.

If one does, and recognizes the accelerating nature of tech, one believes why US outperformance will only widen.


And it's not just that Valuations Don't Matter (unreliable, etc.), it's that It's Different This Time makes historical measures of Valuation meaningless.

Or even that International has outperformed in the past - future outperformance will go to tech leadership.
Thx James... Added technology leadership
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by CraigTester »

SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:55 pm
HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:42 pm
CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:19 am How would this reconcile with "Valuations don't matter"
I still submit that you should change that to "Valuations aren't actionable" which is more accurate and harder to dismiss.

Valuations can matter and still be not worth much as an investing signal because timing is important, and valuations don't offer any information on that front.
I second this proposal.
I also feel that "valuations don't matter" is deprecating. Because it portrays us-only investors as cavalier.
Cavalier: showing a lack of proper concern; offhand.
Thx, just updated....
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:55 pm
HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:42 pm
CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:19 am How would this reconcile with "Valuations don't matter"
I still submit that you should change that to "Valuations aren't actionable" which is more accurate and harder to dismiss.

Valuations can matter and still be not worth much as an investing signal because timing is important, and valuations don't offer any information on that front.
I second this proposal.
I also feel that "valuations don't matter" is deprecating. Because it portrays us-only investors as cavalier.
Cavalier: showing a lack of proper concern; offhand.
I do believe that US only investors are quite cavalier in their approach to risk management. On the one hand, they believe in diversification, but on the other, they don't extend it to global markets. There's a bit of survivorship and recency bias going on that makes the past seem as though it's pre-ordained for the future. Or that the market doesn't price in whatever narrative or structural arguments are used to justify a 100% US position; it will perpetually undervalue those reasons and lead to long-term higher returns.

This is a great discussion on risk/return, uncertainty, and confidence in setting allocation decisions:

https://youtu.be/0Mlb_iHAugM?si=vlvzzNF6mAZ4wSee&t=770

This is a great discussion on Expected Returns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mlb_iHAugM&t=2280s
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by JBTX »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:45 pm
SB1234 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:55 pm
HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:42 pm
CraigTester wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:19 am How would this reconcile with "Valuations don't matter"
I still submit that you should change that to "Valuations aren't actionable" which is more accurate and harder to dismiss.

Valuations can matter and still be not worth much as an investing signal because timing is important, and valuations don't offer any information on that front.
I second this proposal.
I also feel that "valuations don't matter" is deprecating. Because it portrays us-only investors as cavalier.
Cavalier: showing a lack of proper concern; offhand.
I do believe that US only investors are quite cavalier in their approach to risk management. On the one hand, they believe in diversification, but on the other, they don't extend it to global markets. There's a bit of survivorship and recency bias going on that makes the past seem as though it's pre-ordained for the future. Or that the market doesn't price in whatever narrative or structural arguments are used to justify a 100% US position; it will perpetually undervalue those reasons and lead to long-term higher returns.

This is a great discussion on risk/return, uncertainty, and confidence in setting allocation decisions:

https://youtu.be/0Mlb_iHAugM?si=vlvzzNF6mAZ4wSee&t=770

This is a great discussion on Expected Returns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mlb_iHAugM&t=2280s
Originally the list was supposed to be arguments, and presumably the arguments would be those who are making them. Not the verbiage of those who disagree with them.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Beensabu »

Nathan Drake wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:45 pm I do believe that US only investors are quite cavalier in their approach to risk management.
Some just think that single country risk is negligible when it comes to the country they invest in, for whatever reason. From their perspective, they are accepting a risk discount, not taking a diversifiable risk.

Others are expecting a higher return, for whatever reason, and willing to take single country risk for it.

There are a few people out there expecting a higher return with less risk. But it's a bit unfair to lump all US-only investors into that category.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by HomerJ »

The only thing I ask...

When, and there almost certainly will be a when, when International has an extended out-performance over the US, I want you guys to do the math starting from 2017 or 2018, not from whatever date the out-performance starts.

Because that's the problem with valuations. The signal is often too early.

Everyone looks back now and says "Oh, the US stock market was obviously over-valued in 2000, and here are the numbers starting from that date. See how well you would have done paying attention to valuations!"

But the problem is that the US stock market valuations were actually quite high in 1992, and "obviously over-valued" in 1996, long before 2000, so the numbers should be calculated, at the latest, from 1996, not 2000... Because anyone paying attention to valuations would have definitely been making moves in 1996...

Just like people paying attention to valuations in the past decade started making moves in 2017 or 2018, not waiting until 2023.

So the end-result of tilting based on valuations should be tested from Nov 2017 or Jan 2018 not from 2023 or 2024 or 2025 or 2028 or whenever International finally gets its day in the sun.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

HomerJ wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:39 pm The only thing I ask...

When, and there almost certainly will be a when, when International has an extended out-performance over the US, I want you guys to do the math starting from 2017 or 2018, not from whatever date the out-performance starts.

Because that's the problem with valuations. The signal is often too early.

Everyone looks back now and says "Oh, the US stock market was obviously over-valued in 2000, and here are the numbers starting from that date. See how well you would have done paying attention to valuations!"

But the problem is that the US stock market valuations were actually quite high in 1992, and "obviously over-valued" in 1996, long before 2000, so the numbers should be calculated, at the latest, from 1996, not 2000... Because anyone paying attention to valuations would have definitely been making moves in 1996...

Just like people paying attention to valuations in the past decade started making moves in 2017 or 2018, not waiting until 2023.

So the end-result of tilting based on valuations should be tested from Nov 2017 or Jan 2018 not from 2023 or 2024 or 2025 or 2028 or whenever International finally gets its day in the sun.
I can put together a model of my portfolio and my previous allocation/benchmark. 9.1% vs 7.5% annualized. A slight difference but more noise than anything given the short time horizon. Would be much more informative to see how it plays out over at least a 10+ year period, but should really use 20 years or more to judge a strategy.

Either way, I'm not losing sleep over the difference so far.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... tion5_2=20

And by the way, as I have discussed with you many times, as Valuations in the US have crept higher, the longer term returns have been lower. Even starting in the early 90s. US has been fortunate to maintain relatively high valuations, other markets have not fared as well that have seen contraction and maintenance of lower valuations.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by james22 »

Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:23 pm
james22 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:45 pm
km91 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:48 pm So 2022 was the trigger year then?
Sure, if you define outperformance by losing less in a single bad year.

I don't believe most would define it that way. It'll be different for everyone, of course.
If that's the case, then it would have been 2017. Or would that be considered pre-tech?
No, I think Tech was a real contributor to US performance then.

And yes, that was a significant (30%) beat by International.

But psychologically, like the 2022 beat, probably few felt envious after a really good US year.

More importantly, if that had been your trigger, you'd have been proven wrong.

Maybe the better trigger is HomerJ's "extended out-performance," whatever that means (we'll know it when we see it).

Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:23 pm
james22 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:45 pm
km91 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:48 pm So 2022 was the trigger year then?
Sure, if you define outperformance by losing less in a single bad year.

I don't believe most would define it that way. It'll be different for everyone, of course.
If that's the case, then it would have been 2017. Or would that be considered pre-tech?
No, I think Tech was a real contributor to US performance then.

And yes, that was a significant (30%) beat by International.

But psychologically, like the 2022 beat, probably few felt envious after a really good US year.

More importantly, if that had been your trigger, you'd have been proven wrong.

Maybe the better trigger is HomerJ's "extended out-performance," whatever that means (we'll know it when we see it).

Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by HomerJ »

Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:56 am It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
This is correct, although a bit funny coming from you. I mean, it's EXACTLY what I've been saying this whole time.

If one wants the diversification benefit of International, one should always be diversified, not trying to time when it's the right time to get into International.

But that also applies to trying to time when to tilt more (or less) into International as well, which is why it's very weird to me that Nathan just said it.

I think the thread can be closed now. When Nathan and I agree on something, I think we've achieved closure. :beer
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

HomerJ wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:06 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:56 am It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
This is correct, although a bit funny coming from you. I mean, it's EXACTLY what I've been saying this whole time.

If one wants the diversification benefit of International, one should always be diversified, not trying to time when it's the right time to get into International.

But that also applies to trying to time when to tilt more (or less) into International as well, which is why it's very weird to me that Nathan just said it.

I think the thread can be closed now. When Nathan and I agree on something, I think we've achieved closure. :beer
Nope. Not the same at all

I’m always fully diversified. I’m not getting in or out of anything, simply changing allocation slightly if there’s significant divergence in expected returns, based on my personal preferences

He described actual market timing, while I’m simply value investing
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Northern Flicker »

Nathan Drake wrote: It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
This is correct. It is why it is not possible to time allocation changes reliably. Moreover, even if the signal you are chasing happens to be predictive at the time you chase it, you also have to get in ahead of the market, which will respond quickly to price it in.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by SB1234 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:24 pm He described actual market timing, while I’m simply value investing
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Tom_T »

SB1234 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:35 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:24 pm He described actual market timing, while I’m simply value investing
[Embedded animated GIF removed by admin LadyGeek (distracting formatting). Here's the link: https://media.giphy.com/media/l2SpSVzvs ... /giphy.gif]
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by visualguy »

Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:24 pm
HomerJ wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:06 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:56 am It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
This is correct, although a bit funny coming from you. I mean, it's EXACTLY what I've been saying this whole time.

If one wants the diversification benefit of International, one should always be diversified, not trying to time when it's the right time to get into International.

But that also applies to trying to time when to tilt more (or less) into International as well, which is why it's very weird to me that Nathan just said it.

I think the thread can be closed now. When Nathan and I agree on something, I think we've achieved closure. :beer
Nope. Not the same at all

I’m always fully diversified. I’m not getting in or out of anything, simply changing allocation slightly if there’s significant divergence in expected returns, based on my personal preferences

He described actual market timing, while I’m simply value investing
What's the point of these slight allocation changes? Why bother spending time on this when it doesn't move the needle meaningfully?
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

visualguy wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:09 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:24 pm
HomerJ wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:06 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:56 am It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
This is correct, although a bit funny coming from you. I mean, it's EXACTLY what I've been saying this whole time.

If one wants the diversification benefit of International, one should always be diversified, not trying to time when it's the right time to get into International.

But that also applies to trying to time when to tilt more (or less) into International as well, which is why it's very weird to me that Nathan just said it.

I think the thread can be closed now. When Nathan and I agree on something, I think we've achieved closure. :beer
Nope. Not the same at all

I’m always fully diversified. I’m not getting in or out of anything, simply changing allocation slightly if there’s significant divergence in expected returns, based on my personal preferences

He described actual market timing, while I’m simply value investing
What's the point of these slight allocation changes? Why bother spending time on this when it doesn't move the needle meaningfully?
1. It doesn’t happen regularly. Only at extremes
2. I do expect it to move the needle meaningfully over a long horizon, but am accepting of the risk that it won’t
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by visualguy »

Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:13 pm
visualguy wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:09 pm What's the point of these slight allocation changes? Why bother spending time on this when it doesn't move the needle meaningfully?
1. It doesn’t happen regularly. Only at extremes
2. I do expect it to move the needle meaningfully over a long horizon, but am accepting of the risk that it won’t
If these allocation changes are slight and rare, I don't see how they can move the needle meaningfully. It seems contradictory to me.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Beensabu »

james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by james22 »

Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:53 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
Aren't we all?
When people say things are different, 20 percent of the time they are right. John Templeton
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by james22 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:56 am
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:23 pm
james22 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:45 pm
km91 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:48 pm So 2022 was the trigger year then?
Sure, if you define outperformance by losing less in a single bad year.

I don't believe most would define it that way. It'll be different for everyone, of course.
If that's the case, then it would have been 2017. Or would that be considered pre-tech?
No, I think Tech was a real contributor to US performance then.

And yes, that was a significant (30%) beat by International.

But psychologically, like the 2022 beat, probably few felt envious after a really good US year.

More importantly, if that had been your trigger, you'd have been proven wrong.

Maybe the better trigger is HomerJ's "extended out-performance," whatever that means (we'll know it when we see it).

Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
International (itself) isn't a factor for good reason. It isn't persistent, pervasive, or robust.

If I'm going to invest in International, I want to see outperformance and a reason to believe why it'll continue.

Intuitive: There are logical, risk-based or behavioral-based explanations for the premium and why it should continue to exist. Investors should prefer risk-based explanations, as they cannot be arbitraged away (although post-publication cash flows can shrink the premium). However, that does not mean we should totally discard behavioral-based explanations, because well-documented limits to arbitrage can prevent sophisticated investors from correcting overvaluations.

https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... ors-endure

There's a better argument for a US factor.


WRT: Valuations Don't Matter, US'rs presumably believe efficient markets price risk assets so they all have very similar risk-adjusted returns (though they probably really believe investors underestimate US Growth). As opposed to those who believe Valuation Matters because investors overestimate US Growth.
When people say things are different, 20 percent of the time they are right. John Templeton
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Beensabu »

james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:23 pm
Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:53 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
Aren't we all?
No. We all want return.

Performance chasing has been shown to decrease long-term returns more often than not.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by james22 »

Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:29 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:23 pm
Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:53 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
Aren't we all?
No. We all want return.

Performance chasing has been shown to decrease long-term returns more often than not.
Do you believe all five strategies in the OP have equal expected returns?
When people say things are different, 20 percent of the time they are right. John Templeton
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Northern Flicker »

james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:23 pm
Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:53 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
Aren't we all?
No. Performance chasing is buying what has been hot recently. It means you already missed that hot run-up, so it is not uncommon for subsequent returns to be muted.

I would describe changing one's allocation in response to valuations as a form of contrarian investing.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by GaryA505 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:57 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:23 pm
Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:53 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
Aren't we all?
No. Performance chasing is buying what has been hot recently. It means you already missed that hot run-up, so it is not uncommon for subsequent returns to be muted.

I would describe changing one's allocation in response to valuations as a form of contrarian investing.
Defining "recently" is a bit of a problem, no?
Get most of it right and don't make any big mistakes. All else being equal, simpler is better. Simple is as simple does.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by visualguy »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:57 pm No. Performance chasing is buying what has been hot recently. It means you already missed that hot run-up, so it is not uncommon for subsequent returns to be muted.
Passive indexing is also "performance chasing", but it does well... When I buy more VTI, for example, I buy a larger and larger percentage of the stocks that gained. The more a stock gains, the larger the bump on my next purchase, and vice versa.
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by james22 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:57 pmPerformance chasing is buying what has been hot recently. It means you already missed that hot run-up, so it is not uncommon for subsequent returns to be muted.
james22 wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:57 amNC. Trading is getting 80% of the move. Yeah. The first 10% somebody else can have, and the last 10%. If you can capture 80% of the move you're way ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0dqoptI84s&t=4121s
When people say things are different, 20 percent of the time they are right. John Templeton
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Nathan Drake »

james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:00 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:56 am
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:23 pm
james22 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:45 pm

Sure, if you define outperformance by losing less in a single bad year.

I don't believe most would define it that way. It'll be different for everyone, of course.
If that's the case, then it would have been 2017. Or would that be considered pre-tech?
No, I think Tech was a real contributor to US performance then.

And yes, that was a significant (30%) beat by International.

But psychologically, like the 2022 beat, probably few felt envious after a really good US year.

More importantly, if that had been your trigger, you'd have been proven wrong.

Maybe the better trigger is HomerJ's "extended out-performance," whatever that means (we'll know it when we see it).

Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
It’s a bit naive to think you’ll be able to know when to be allocated to exUS

Investment returns don’t work that way. You’ll never know the extent, magnitude, or duration of whatever momentum signal you’re chasing
International (itself) isn't a factor for good reason. It isn't persistent, pervasive, or robust.

If I'm going to invest in International, I want to see outperformance and a reason to believe why it'll continue.

Intuitive: There are logical, risk-based or behavioral-based explanations for the premium and why it should continue to exist. Investors should prefer risk-based explanations, as they cannot be arbitraged away (although post-publication cash flows can shrink the premium). However, that does not mean we should totally discard behavioral-based explanations, because well-documented limits to arbitrage can prevent sophisticated investors from correcting overvaluations.

https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... ors-endure

There's a better argument for a US factor.


WRT: Valuations Don't Matter, US'rs presumably believe efficient markets price risk assets so they all have very similar risk-adjusted returns (though they probably really believe investors underestimate US Growth). As opposed to those who believe Valuation Matters because investors overestimate US Growth.
This is categorically false

It is a separate market factor from the US

The long term performance of international has not been that dissimilar from the US. 1950-2010 saw equal performance
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Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Beensabu »

james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:42 pm
Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:29 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:23 pm
Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:53 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
Aren't we all?
No. We all want return.

Performance chasing has been shown to decrease long-term returns more often than not.
Do you believe all five strategies in the OP have equal expected returns?
Over a long enough time frame, yes.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
Northern Flicker
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Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by Northern Flicker »

GaryA505 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:05 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:57 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:23 pm
Beensabu wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:53 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:34 am Myself, I'd need either see extended outperformance or good reasons (cultural, structural) for a single year's significant outperformance to believe International warranted an allocation.
The people who jumped into exUS in 2007 after extended outperformance will tell you that didn't work out great either.

You realize that either way, you're just describing performance chasing, right?
Aren't we all?
No. Performance chasing is buying what has been hot recently. It means you already missed that hot run-up, so it is not uncommon for subsequent returns to be muted.

I would describe changing one's allocation in response to valuations as a form of contrarian investing.
Defining "recently" is a bit of a problem, no?
No, it is based on overgeneralizing past performance, not the timeframe.
james22
Posts: 1956
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:22 pm

Re: International (Non-US) versus US Equities (The "Arguments")

Post by james22 »

Nathan Drake wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:58 pm
james22 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:00 pmInternational (itself) isn't a factor for good reason. It isn't persistent, pervasive, or robust.

If I'm going to invest in International, I want to see outperformance and a reason to believe why it'll continue.

Intuitive: There are logical, risk-based or behavioral-based explanations for the premium and why it should continue to exist. Investors should prefer risk-based explanations, as they cannot be arbitraged away (although post-publication cash flows can shrink the premium). However, that does not mean we should totally discard behavioral-based explanations, because well-documented limits to arbitrage can prevent sophisticated investors from correcting overvaluations.

https://www.etf.com/sections/index-inve ... ors-endure

There's a better argument for a US factor.
This is categorically false

It is a separate market factor from the US

The long term performance of international has not been that dissimilar from the US. 1950-2010 saw equal performance
Really?

Why don't the listed arguments for International make mention of its exceptionalism, structural advantages, government support, etc?
When people say things are different, 20 percent of the time they are right. John Templeton
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