Empower (formerly Personal Capital) Investment Advice

staleyintx · Post by **staleyintx** » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:35 am

Hi, I've been using the Empower online tool for some time. I really like it and finally caved to an offer to have one of their financial advisors review my overall portfolio including asset allocation, tax efficiency, etc. Has anyone had experience using them? If so, any thoughts? They are a fiduciary firm so they aren't trying to sell me any products but they are making a few recommendations that make me a tad uncomfy. I haven't seen their fee structure as well so I'm sure there will be some sticker shock when they present it (today I manage my money so no outside help). Any comments, thoughts or suggestions are welcome! Thank you in advance!

UU37CN13 · Post by **UU37CN13** » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:47 am

I use their tool and like it, but I ignore their sales calls.

telecaster · Post by **telecaster** » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:50 am

I also use their free portal and ignore their sales calls. For entertainment purposes I spoke with them a few years back. They charge a serious AUM fee (around 0.8% if I recall), and will have you move your assets over to them. They will invest them in a bunch of different funds that they argue will give you better diversity and tax harvesting opportunities that they will handle automatically. Run away from this ... stick with a self managed boglehead style portfolio and you'll be better off in the long run. The fees add up, and their controlled messy portfolio will be difficult to unwind when you want to move away from them.

Best of luck!

Vanguard User · Post by **Vanguard User** » Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:02 am

I only use the free tool.

exodusNH · Post by **exodusNH** » Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:47 pm

staleyintx wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:35 am Hi, I've been using the Empower online tool for some time. I really like it and finally caved to an offer to have one of their financial advisors review my overall portfolio including asset allocation, tax efficiency, etc. Has anyone had experience using them? If so, any thoughts? They are a fiduciary firm so they aren't trying to sell me any products but they are making a few recommendations that make me a tad uncomfy. I haven't seen their fee structure as well so I'm sure there will be some sticker shock when they present it (today I manage my money so no outside help). Any comments, thoughts or suggestions are welcome! Thank you in advance!

Of course they are trying to sell you products, in particular, their advisory services, for which they'll charge some percentage of your assets.

Now, whether the advisory services will work out in the long run, who knows. It does mean that they will need to consistently outperform the market by more than the fees and taxes their strategy incurs. This is very difficult to do consistently.

You will likely wind up with an annoyingly complicated portfolio with an enormous 1099 each year that you're going to have to pay for tax software or a tax person to manage.

passive101 · Post by **passive101** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:26 am

I use their free software which is a great tool. They charge an AUM fee like all advisors. I believe they are a robo so everything is handled automatically through their software including TLH, rebalancing, etc. They give you a form that you just put into your tax software such as TurboTax. If it's a year they do much TLH I'm guessing it will be a long form like what Betterment does for me.

It should be easy to do.

Ok curious what portfolio recommendations they will offer you and what type of funds they use. They do seem to focus on fund efficiency if their advice follows what their app recommends and looks out for.

FIRWYW · Post by **FIRWYW** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:04 am

I wouldn’t use them. Couple red flags.
1) AUM is pretty high (0.85% I believe)
2) cold calls trying to sell their advice (I have had 2-3 in 2 years using the app). To me that means they are making some good money off you.
3) automatic advice on empower app for me at least is that I would get better returns by adding gold, commodities. evidence is actually AGAINST that.

So, sounds like you pay more for bad advice.

If your looking for a robo advisor, stick with vanguard, etc

invest4 · Post by **invest4** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:19 am

No one cares about your money than you do.

Tis easy enough to construct and maintain a simple portfolio for the long term.

The AUM is not worth whatever they are offering, keep your hard earned money for yourself.

Longdog · Post by **Longdog** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:30 am

Trust your gut. The fact that some of their recommendations make you uncomfortable tells me that you have thought through your investment strategy and have reached conclusions based on your analysis that you are comfortable with. Given that, you are probably not the type of person who will blindly trust them. This reminds me of someone who pays someone to do their taxes, and upon review, finds a mistake. Why pay someone to do your taxes if you are thorough enough on your own to "check their work?"

CyclingDuo · Post by **CyclingDuo** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:53 am

staleyintx wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:35 am Hi, I've been using the Empower online tool for some time. I really like it and finally caved to an offer to have one of their financial advisors review my overall portfolio including asset allocation, tax efficiency, etc. Has anyone had experience using them? If so, any thoughts? They are a fiduciary firm so they aren't trying to sell me any products but they are making a few recommendations that make me a tad uncomfy. I haven't seen their fee structure as well so I'm sure there will be some sticker shock when they present it (today I manage my money so no outside help). Any comments, thoughts or suggestions are welcome! Thank you in advance!

I went through the sales call several years ago after, like you, caving to the repeated calls. We had already been through a similar event with TIAA, Fidelity, a DFA AUM local investment firm, the Morgan Stanley pitch from the advisor for my parents when they passed, etc... so knew what to expect. In our case, we chose to continue on the DIY path and not pay a AUM fee for any of the firms.

Empower will most likely give you the sales pitch of .8% AUM where they will manage your portfolio using ETFs, individual holdings, tax loss harvesting, etc... in what appears as complexity for what can be a really rather less complicated, more simple process that one can DIY. In our case, the advisor said it would involve 150 holdings (mix of ETFs and stocks) to accomplish what would be needed to manage our portfolio.

Compared to TIAA which had it down to about 8-12 holdings, Fidelity at about 10-12 holdings, and DFA which was also a bit more complex, they were all more reasonable than 150 holdings that Empower recommended. We decided on a hard pass with Empower after the sales pitch call. My employer's workplace plan is held at Empower, so I still do get hit up with emails and calls from them every now and then to consider their AUM.

If you are comfortable using the DIY method as you mention, then listen to their pitch and let them know you are comfortable managing things on your own for now after you thank them for their time.

CyclingDuo

staleyintx · Post by **staleyintx** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:41 am

Thank you all for the responses. Very helpful. They are suggesting a bucket of about 75 stocks so they can tax loss harvest more easily vs an index fund. Also, they believe I’m overweighted in areas like healthcare and tech which is true due to past investments doing so well in those segments (I also have a significant amount of RSUs in tech given my employment). I’m not too crazy taking the capital gains hit to move things around either. And that fee could be significant given my portfolio. Wowsa.

vrr106 · Post by **vrr106** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:57 am

The "free tool" part of Empower was called Personal Capital, it's a nice tool that I check in with once in a while. Personal Capital was a Silicon Valley company founded in the 21st century. They have given some good thought into how to make your personal finance data easy to visualize and monitor, kind of like Mint does.
Empower is a 100+ year old company with $60B in revenue that acquired Personal Capital for less than $1B about 3 years ago.
Although PC used to also sell "advice" (I never tried it), I would expect their customers in the future will most likely become part of what Empower does overall with the kind of AUM fees they charge, etc. Obviously on a boglehead forum, this is the exact opposite of what most people preach. But if you are seriously not a DIYer when it comes to personal finance and want more opinions from people who have tried them beyond the free tools, there is a subreddit for it.

staleyintx · Post by **staleyintx** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:29 pm

Thanks for the tip on Reddit. I’ll check it out. I am a very passive investor and focus on allocation, dollar cost averaging, reinvesting all dividends and interest and reviewing the portfolio once per year. I will sell losers to offset capital gains but my portfolio is probably not as diversified as it should be and I’m not sure it’s as tax efficient as I would like. As I come into cash typically through selling my RSUs, I diversify into areas where I feel that I’m underweighted like bonds. I’ve honestly avoided international funds given volatility and never been one to invest in gold or other alternative investments (some but not much).

Today my portfolio is weighted as follows: US Stocks 66.5%, US Bonds 18.2%, Cash 6.6%, International Stocks 5%, Alternatives 3.5% and International Bonds 0.1%. Of the US stocks, I’m heavily weighted in large cap at 73.8% and sectors like Health Care at 32.3% and Technology at 31.7%.

Empower’s initial recommendation is US Stocks 48.7%, International Stocks 21%, US Bonds 16.6%, Alternatives 10.1%, International Bonds 2.9% and Cash 0.8%. Of the US Stocks, they believe I should be better balanced across many sectors vs. Health Care and Tech. The issue I have is that I invest a ton in S&P 500 which is going to be large cap and US hence the over-weighting but frankly it’s my “set it and forget it” mentality.

Any additional thoughts or suggestions are welcome

Raspberry-503 · Post by **Raspberry-503** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:49 pm

You will need to move your money to their custodian of choice, so you can't stay with fidelity, etc... you can't make trades of your own, they basically hold all money and control,.making it harder to get out.
They do their own "index" with 75-80 stocks rather than using VTI or VOO or whatever. They claim equal weights across sectors are best, which really depends on the time period but doesn't hold true for long-term back testing. It's just a way to sell you a product that you can't easily duplicate, so you can't track if it's doing better or worse than the market.
They are heavy into commodities (REITs and precious metals/. I know many people believe in Gold so it's not necessarily bad but it complicated your portfolio, again making it harde to track and understand, so a way to keep you captive.

Overall their advice is not bad, it's just not proven to be superior to a DIY 3-fund portfolio even before fees, so after fees...

You can more or less approximate their portfolio in portfolio visualizer. Use the ALPS Equal Weights SP500 index as a proxy to their equal weights basket of stocks. Use 1/2 GLD and 1/2 VNQ for commodities. The usual suspects VXUS for international, BND, BNDx etc...

SB1234 · Post by **SB1234** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:56 pm

Even their free service may cause you to complicate your portfolio. complicating your portfolio is not necessary. Keeping your portfolio simple is the best. Three fund is all you need! Below is what i thought a few years ago, when I closed account with them.

One downside of the daily sync of data, was that it made you aware of your positions and AA daily and used to cause a lot of anxiety about trading. Even though I was able to avoid trading.
Also their pretty graphs will cause you to think whether you have the optimum portfolio. And encourages you to slice and dice. They even had a recommendation for alternatives when I was in the platform.

goingup · Post by **goingup** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:14 pm

Good grief don’t sign onto a company that will put you in 85 stocks and charge you .85% AUM. Imagine what happens in a couple years when you get tired of paying the advisor. You’ll be stuck with 85 stocks to untangle.

It will be a complicated mess and you’ll likely get no better results than putting all your money in SP500 fund, an Intermediate bond fund and a bit of cash.

exodusNH · Post by **exodusNH** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:22 pm

goingup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:14 pm Good grief don’t sign onto a company that will put you in 85 stocks and charge you .85% AUM. Imagine what happens in a couple years when you get tired of paying the advisor. You’ll be stuck with 85 stocks to untangle.

It will be a complicated mess and you’ll likely get no better results than putting all your money in SP500 fund, an Intermediate bond fund and a bit of cash.

Not only all of those stocks, but if they had been TLH, you'll probably have a relatively low basis.

PottedPlant · Post by **PottedPlant** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:22 pm

You should read reviews about Empower. They are terrible.
Poor responses to issues.
Difficult to get money out.

CletusCaddy · Post by **CletusCaddy** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:24 pm

exodusNH wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:22 pm
goingup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:14 pm Good grief don’t sign onto a company that will put you in 85 stocks and charge you .85% AUM. Imagine what happens in a couple years when you get tired of paying the advisor. You’ll be stuck with 85 stocks to untangle.

It will be a complicated mess and you’ll likely get no better results than putting all your money in SP500 fund, an Intermediate bond fund and a bit of cash.
Not only all of those stocks, but if they had been TLH, you'll probably have a relatively low basis.

You say that like it’s a bad thing

exodusNH · Post by **exodusNH** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:25 pm

CletusCaddy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:24 pm
exodusNH wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:22 pm
goingup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:14 pm Good grief don’t sign onto a company that will put you in 85 stocks and charge you .85% AUM. Imagine what happens in a couple years when you get tired of paying the advisor. You’ll be stuck with 85 stocks to untangle.

It will be a complicated mess and you’ll likely get no better results than putting all your money in SP500 fund, an Intermediate bond fund and a bit of cash.
Not only all of those stocks, but if they had been TLH, you'll probably have a relatively low basis.
You say that like it’s a bad thing

If you want to unwind it, it will increase the tax cost.

CletusCaddy · Post by **CletusCaddy** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:36 pm

exodusNH wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:25 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:24 pm
exodusNH wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:22 pm
goingup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:14 pm Good grief don’t sign onto a company that will put you in 85 stocks and charge you .85% AUM. Imagine what happens in a couple years when you get tired of paying the advisor. You’ll be stuck with 85 stocks to untangle.

It will be a complicated mess and you’ll likely get no better results than putting all your money in SP500 fund, an Intermediate bond fund and a bit of cash.
Not only all of those stocks, but if they had been TLH, you'll probably have a relatively low basis.
You say that like it’s a bad thing
If you want to unwind it, it will increase the tax cost.

If TLH was a good idea in the first place then that implies there would be a future state where the shares could be liquidated at lower tax cost.

If that was not the case then OP shouldn’t be TLHing to begin with.

texas lawdog · Post by **texas lawdog** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:45 pm

Use their tool, but let Google voice handle their sales call(s).
My wife's 401K is handled via Empower and don't like any of their mutual fund options - will roll over to an IRA as soon as she retires.

yobyot · Post by **yobyot** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:01 pm

UU37CN13 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:47 am I use their tool and like it, but I ignore their sales calls.

I like it, too.

But they've never called me.

Is it me?

staleyintx · Post by **staleyintx** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:08 pm

I think much of this is very enlightening. The 75 stocks and unwinding it later would seem to be a major issue especially if you are unhappy. I hate paying a fee as well. They make a compelling case but they also have asterisks everywhere

I’ve done this before at Fidelity going back 10-15 years and was never happy. I always felt that I could lose my money just as easily and not pay a fee (LOL that was joke). Anyway appreciate everyone’s feedback. I’ll continue diversifying as cash frees up and live with my boring index fund returns that beat actively managed what about 80% of the time? Thanks all!

vrr106 · Post by **vrr106** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:12 pm

staleyintx wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:29 pm
Today my portfolio is weighted as follows: US Stocks 66.5%, US Bonds 18.2%, Cash 6.6%, International Stocks 5%, Alternatives 3.5% and International Bonds 0.1%. Of the US stocks, I’m heavily weighted in large cap at 73.8% and sectors like Health Care at 32.3% and Technology at 31.7%.

Empower’s initial recommendation is US Stocks 48.7%, International Stocks 21%, US Bonds 16.6%, Alternatives 10.1%, International Bonds 2.9% and Cash 0.8%. Of the US Stocks, they believe I should be better balanced across many sectors vs. Health Care and Tech. The issue I have is that I invest a ton in S&P 500 which is going to be large cap and US hence the over-weighting but frankly it’s my “set it and forget it” mentality.

Overall, I don't see issues with your allocation (unless you are in your 20s or 80s:))
There have been debates on this forum regarding sector weighting, the impact of large caps on S&P 500 or Total Stock Market indices. I'm not sure anyone has the right answer, but 80 individual stocks sounds like a very wrong answer. As others have wisely opined here, don't let the tail that is taxes/TLH wag the dog that is your overall investment plan and objectives. My own philosophy is to stick with a tried and trusted approach (in my case mainly 3 fund) and stick with it through up/down/sickness/health until death:)

Raspberry-503 · Post by **Raspberry-503** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:30 pm

Just for fun I took my own advice and did a backtest of Empower's suggested portfolio to replace my 65/35 portfolio (30% of stock international)
It seems about right, if you add cash+bonds+international bonds+gold you're at about 30%, not sure I'd consider 4.9% REITs similar to bonds, but that's the portfolio Empower suggests as an alternative to mine.
I used EQL as a proxy for their 85 stocks with equal sector weights

click here

Because of the presence of international bonds, you can't backtest before 2014, but my 3 funds portfolio and theirs are basically neck-to-neck before fees. Mine is so much simpler, use very low fees indexes, and doesn't pay an AUM. Theirs does keep up, might even perform better sometime, who knows, but I'm not willing to bet it'll perform 85bpts better

Buck S · Post by **Buck S** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:42 am

I agree with others that the tool can be quite useful.

I actually tried the service with a chunk of my portfolio that I got during an extremely busy point in my life. Here is what I found:

You fill out a risk tolerance questionnaire, based on that it suggests a portfolio mix. US equities are covered by their own set of stocks that are managed by a team of analysts. Non-US equities (Bonds, commodities, international, emerging market, etc) are cover through ETFs, funds, etc. They do not think too much about asset location unless you push it.

If you have enough assets, additional services are available at no cost. For example, they will have lawyers work with you on a custom estate approach that you can take to a lawyer to implement, they have a social security expert that will give you a personal analysis on when you should claim, etc. Also, they proactively push you to keep using the services, reviewing the portfolio, etc. and I mean this in a good way (ie they would remind you you have not done a portfolio review in x months, or you should schedule a session on estate planning yet). I'm sure the marketing studies say the more active you can make a customer, the more likely they are to continue.

I feel the financial advisors I worked with were pretty good too. It usually seemed like good, sound advice with no sales pushes.

So, overall a very good experience but why did I leave? First, you have AUM fees covering the management of the ETF/funds - and I can do that fairly easily and put the money that would go into the AUM to better use. This left there equity portfolio as their value play, and while it tended to perform close to market, I do not need to to pay AUM fees for what I can get in the funds we use on this forum. While they did provide loss harvesting, the lack of interest in asset placement kept me from wanting to give them my post tax money.

Works best for: someone that does not want the "ownership" of selecting a direction and is willing to pay for a fairly safe, hands off approach.

gavinsiu · Post by **gavinsiu** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:17 am

This may be departing from the topic at hand. How good is empower at budgeting? I actually had an account for Personal Capital for a while but eventually got rid of it. The account syncing had problems with 2fa enable accounts. I did not need investment tracking for a 4 fund portfolio. I did not need to know that my network is. I only rebalance once a year.

I did notice an issue when stuff is transfer around. One reason I got rid of it was that I change my Vanguard account from mutual fund to brokerage and Personal Capital indicated that my network double suddenly.

GaryA505 · Post by **GaryA505** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:41 am

Is there a way to use Empower without linking accounts?

CletusCaddy · Post by **CletusCaddy** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:46 am

GaryA505 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:41 am Is there a way to use Empower without linking accounts?

Yes you can set up manual accounts and populate with tickers and quantities but then you would need to keep it updated every time you buy/sell

GaryA505 · Post by **GaryA505** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:48 am

CletusCaddy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:46 am
GaryA505 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:41 am Is there a way to use Empower without linking accounts?
Yes you can set up manual accounts and populate with tickers and quantities but then you would need to keep it updated every time you buy/sell

Nope. When I login I can't get past the screen asking me to link accounts.

Diamondbullets · Post by **Diamondbullets** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:34 pm

I think you have to link one account and then it will let you manually add more accounts. Then you can unlink the first account.

GaryA505 · Post by **GaryA505** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:51 pm

Diamondbullets wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:34 pm I think you have to link one account and then it will let you manually add more accounts. Then you can unlink the first account.

I was able to link one account but I couldn't add anything manually.

EDIT: Ok I found it, but I can only add assets by shares.

CletusCaddy · Post by **CletusCaddy** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:35 pm

GaryA505 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:51 pm EDIT: Ok I found it, but I can only add assets by shares.

And what's wrong with that?

GaryA505 · Post by **GaryA505** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:06 pm

CletusCaddy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:35 pm
GaryA505 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:51 pm EDIT: Ok I found it, but I can only add assets by shares.
And what's wrong with that?

In New Retirement I can just add the dollar amount. I guess shares could be easier once you add it because it will update the price.

Raspberry-503 · Post by **Raspberry-503** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:10 pm

The linking can be kind of a crap shoot, not truly Empower's fault but the aggregation tech ologies in the industry are not mature. It seems like I run into some problem every few months. For example my bank changed their web site and log in site in July, and it was only fixed in early September. My bank account then showed up as a new/separate account, but it did eventually sync the history back to July. I had to manually mark a few transactions as duplicates, but in the end I was able to straighten it out.
As long as your willing to put up with that type of syncing issues, I find that it works pretty well for me. It calculated my monthly spend across two bank accounts and 5 credit cards and shows an accurate summary of what I spent where.

CletusCaddy · Post by **CletusCaddy** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:10 pm

GaryA505 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:06 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:35 pm
GaryA505 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:51 pm EDIT: Ok I found it, but I can only add assets by shares.
And what's wrong with that?
In New Retirement I can just add the dollar amount. I guess shares could be easier once you add it because it will update the price.

Exactly it’s a feature not a bug

FIRWYW · Post by **FIRWYW** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:41 pm

gavinsiu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:17 am This may be departing from the topic at hand. How good is empower at budgeting? I actually had an account for Personal Capital for a while but eventually got rid of it. The account syncing had problems with 2fa enable accounts. I did not need investment tracking for a 4 fund portfolio. I did not need to know that my network is. I only rebalance once a year.

I did notice an issue when stuff is transfer around. One reason I got rid of it was that I change my Vanguard account from mutual fund to brokerage and Personal Capital indicated that my network double suddenly.

Budgeting - it is not helpful at all. Looking back on what you spent on, if you maintain it, is. Quicken is much better for budgeting and have thought about changing back. (maintaining the correct categories takes work with empower- when I noticed “entertainment” costs were skyrocketing, a quick look found out WINCO (grocery store) was classified by them as “entertainment”-shrug)

Yvy · Post by **Yvy** » Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:46 am

My workplace uses Empower for retirement accounts. I have no issue so far because the workplace selected Vanguard funds so all the important Vanguard assets: target funds, total stock market, total international, total bonds with their very low ER are there. Yearly 401K fees, part of it paid by the workplace in 401K match is $36. My prior workplace used Fidelity as a plateform for retirement accounts, so I also have a 401K (I did not consolidate) with Fidelity and fidelity securities, yearly fees $50k.
I use the free personal Capital service only to grossly visualize my portfolio/Net Worth since I have retirement accounts with different companies and brokerage at Vanguard. I ignore all their sollicitation and marketing for advisors etc.

gavinsiu · Post by **gavinsiu** » Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:29 am

FIRWYW wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:41 pm Budgeting - it is not helpful at all. Looking back on what you spent on, if you maintain it, is. Quicken is much better for budgeting and have thought about changing back. (maintaining the correct categories takes work with empower- when I noticed “entertainment” costs were skyrocketing, a quick look found out WINCO (grocery store) was classified by them as “entertainment”-shrug)

Thanks, I got out of Personal Capital years ago but thought there might have been some upgrade on the budgetting side. Thanks for your help.