Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

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loukycpa
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by loukycpa »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:08 am If I understand correctly, WB invests in dividend paying stocks and they uses that money as he sees fit, which is to invest in companies for better return. Many BH approve of this.

Why then is it a bad move for a BH to invest in dividend paying stocks and use the money as they see fit? If dividends are so verboten why would WB even buy them for the BRK portfolio? Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Believe me, Warren Buffett is all about growth. He doesn't bother with buying companies where he doesn't expect corporate earnings to grow. In his view of the world, all intelligent investing is value investing. Growth is a component of value, and they are joined at the hip. He doesn't believe in splitting the investment universe into value stock versus growth stocks at all. Companies that are growing faster are more valuable. Companies where future earnings are more certain are more valuable then companies where the future of earnings are less certain. That is his view of the world.

Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
"The safe assumption for an investor is that over the next hundred years, the currency is going to zero." - Charlie Munger
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LaramieWind
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by LaramieWind »

burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:02 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:08 am If I understand correctly, WB invests in dividend paying stocks and they uses that money as he sees fit, which is to invest in companies for better return. Many BH approve of this.

Why then is it a bad move for a BH to invest in dividend paying stocks and use the money as they see fit? If dividends are so verboten why would WB even buy them for the BRK portfolio? Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Why would dividend paying stocks be evil and presumed to not have any value? That's an odd conclusion. The dividend payment itself is irrelevant - that doesn't mean you shouldn't invest in dividend-payers. The only evil thing thing is it is forced tax event but asset location can mitigate that somewhat and you don't want to let the tax tail wag the investment dog by tilting towards growth stocks solely for tax savings.
Many BH here do not like div-paying stocks and chastise those that see any value in them, yet they do not mind WB using div paying stocks to his advantage. I find this contradiction and their personal attacks on people that like div stokes quite telling.
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burritoLover
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by burritoLover »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:09 am
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:02 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:08 am If I understand correctly, WB invests in dividend paying stocks and they uses that money as he sees fit, which is to invest in companies for better return. Many BH approve of this.

Why then is it a bad move for a BH to invest in dividend paying stocks and use the money as they see fit? If dividends are so verboten why would WB even buy them for the BRK portfolio? Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Why would dividend paying stocks be evil and presumed to not have any value? That's an odd conclusion. The dividend payment itself is irrelevant - that doesn't mean you shouldn't invest in dividend-payers. The only evil thing thing is it is forced tax event but asset location can mitigate that somewhat and you don't want to let the tax tail wag the investment dog by tilting towards growth stocks solely for tax savings.
Many BH here do not like div-paying stocks and chastise those that see any value in them, yet they do not mind WB using div paying stocks to his advantage. I find this contradiction and their personal attacks on people that like div stokes quite telling.
That can't be true because many here are invested in total market funds like the 2 or 3-fund portfolio. I think you're confusing dividend irrelevance with dividend hate - other than some extreme tax avoiders (and they are wrong in their own right), I don't really think anyone actively excludes dividend stocks from their portfolio because they hate dividend payers. No one is attacking you - they are trying to help you understand how dividends work.
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LaramieWind
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by LaramieWind »

loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:08 am If I understand correctly, WB invests in dividend paying stocks and they uses that money as he sees fit, which is to invest in companies for better return. Many BH approve of this.

Why then is it a bad move for a BH to invest in dividend paying stocks and use the money as they see fit? If dividends are so verboten why would WB even buy them for the BRK portfolio? Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Believe me, Warren Buffett is all about growth. He doesn't bother with buying companies where he doesn't expect corporate earnings to grow. In his view of the world, all intelligent investing is value investing. Growth is a component of value, and they are joined at the hip. He doesn't believe in splitting the investment universe into value stock versus growth stocks at all. Companies that are growing faster are more valuable. Companies where future earnings are more certain are more valuable then companies where the future of earnings are less certain. That is his view of the world.

Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
1) obviously WB is not adverse to dividend paying companies unlike so many BH.
2) My understanding of dividends is fine and not part of this discussion.
3) So many responders to this post refuse to even discuss the value of dividends, they are the agnostics.
toddthebod
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by toddthebod »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:09 am
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:02 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:08 am If I understand correctly, WB invests in dividend paying stocks and they uses that money as he sees fit, which is to invest in companies for better return. Many BH approve of this.

Why then is it a bad move for a BH to invest in dividend paying stocks and use the money as they see fit? If dividends are so verboten why would WB even buy them for the BRK portfolio? Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Why would dividend paying stocks be evil and presumed to not have any value? That's an odd conclusion. The dividend payment itself is irrelevant - that doesn't mean you shouldn't invest in dividend-payers. The only evil thing thing is it is forced tax event but asset location can mitigate that somewhat and you don't want to let the tax tail wag the investment dog by tilting towards growth stocks solely for tax savings.
Many BH here do not like div-paying stocks and chastise those that see any value in them, yet they do not mind WB using div paying stocks to his advantage. I find this contradiction and their personal attacks on people that like div stokes quite telling.
How is Warren Buffett "using dividend paying stocks to his advantage?"

There is no contradiction in saying dividend stocks are not better than other stocks while also owning stocks that happen to pay dividends. Everything else is your imagination.
Backtests without cash flows are meaningless. Returns without dividends are lies.
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burritoLover
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by burritoLover »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:03 am
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:08 am If I understand correctly, WB invests in dividend paying stocks and they uses that money as he sees fit, which is to invest in companies for better return. Many BH approve of this.

Why then is it a bad move for a BH to invest in dividend paying stocks and use the money as they see fit? If dividends are so verboten why would WB even buy them for the BRK portfolio? Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Believe me, Warren Buffett is all about growth. He doesn't bother with buying companies where he doesn't expect corporate earnings to grow. In his view of the world, all intelligent investing is value investing. Growth is a component of value, and they are joined at the hip. He doesn't believe in splitting the investment universe into value stock versus growth stocks at all. Companies that are growing faster are more valuable. Companies where future earnings are more certain are more valuable then companies where the future of earnings are less certain. That is his view of the world.

Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
1) obviously WB is not adverse to dividend paying companies unlike so many BH.
2) My understanding of dividends is fine and not part of this discussion.
3) So many responders to this post refuse to even discuss the value of dividends, they are the agnostics.
Saying a stock has value over another one solely because it is a dividend payer is meaningless comparison. It is like saying a stock that has a ticker symbol starting with the letter "B" is better than a stock that starts with "C". You need more info than that.
investorpeter
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by investorpeter »

WB doesn't receive the dividends. Berkshire does. I believe Berkshire would pay corporate income tax rate on those dividends received and the dividends could be used to offset losses in other parts of the business. So the tax situation is different than if WB received the dividends directly in which case he would be paying a higher ordinary income tax rate.

This difference in tax treatment of dividends received by a corporation vs. an individual person explains the apparent paradox of WBs aversion to having Berkshire issue dividends, but his willingness to have Berkshire own dividend paying stocks.
Last edited by investorpeter on Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
loukycpa
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by loukycpa »

Buffett's focus is on finding opportunities to buy a business below what he calls "intrinsic value". He does this by considering the future earnings and cash flows of the business (growth is a component of this), discounts those earnings to determine their present value using a discount rate, in order come up with his estimate of the true value of the business. He does this in order to compare the market value of the business (what he can buy it for) to his own estimation of value. He wants to buy the business at a discount to his calculation of intrinsic value, hopefully far below, to give him what he calls a "margin of safety".

If he doesn't understand the business well enough to feel any confidence in its future earnings prospects, he stays away. If he doesn't believe management can be counted on to act in his best interest and prudently invest his "owner earnings" to realize the potential value he sees, he stays away.

He doesn't care about dividends. He believes the market in the short term is a voting machine, but in the long term a weighing machine. He is therefore agnostic about earnings being distributed as dividends, as long as there are profitable opportunities for management to redeploy those earnings and grow the business. He is willing to patiently wait for the value to show up in the stock price.
Last edited by loukycpa on Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LaramieWind
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by LaramieWind »

burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:44 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:03 am
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am

He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Believe me, Warren Buffett is all about growth. He doesn't bother with buying companies where he doesn't expect corporate earnings to grow. In his view of the world, all intelligent investing is value investing. Growth is a component of value, and they are joined at the hip. He doesn't believe in splitting the investment universe into value stock versus growth stocks at all. Companies that are growing faster are more valuable. Companies where future earnings are more certain are more valuable then companies where the future of earnings are less certain. That is his view of the world.

Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
1) obviously WB is not adverse to dividend paying companies unlike so many BH.
2) My understanding of dividends is fine and not part of this discussion.
3) So many responders to this post refuse to even discuss the value of dividends, they are the agnostics.
Saying a stock has value over another one solely because it is a dividend payer is meaningless comparison. It is like saying a stock that has a ticker symbol starting with the letter "B" is better than a stock that starts with "C". You need more info than that.


I never stated that. I dont believe anyone else did.
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LaramieWind
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by LaramieWind »

toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:09 am
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:02 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am

He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Why would dividend paying stocks be evil and presumed to not have any value? That's an odd conclusion. The dividend payment itself is irrelevant - that doesn't mean you shouldn't invest in dividend-payers. The only evil thing thing is it is forced tax event but asset location can mitigate that somewhat and you don't want to let the tax tail wag the investment dog by tilting towards growth stocks solely for tax savings.
Many BH here do not like div-paying stocks and chastise those that see any value in them, yet they do not mind WB using div paying stocks to his advantage. I find this contradiction and their personal attacks on people that like div stokes quite telling.
How is Warren Buffett "using dividend paying stocks to his advantage?"

There is no contradiction in saying dividend stocks are not better than other stocks while also owning stocks that happen to pay dividends. Everything else is your imagination.
I did not say one was better or worse. It appears its your imagination thats the problem.
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burritoLover
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by burritoLover »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:57 am
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:44 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:03 am
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am

Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Believe me, Warren Buffett is all about growth. He doesn't bother with buying companies where he doesn't expect corporate earnings to grow. In his view of the world, all intelligent investing is value investing. Growth is a component of value, and they are joined at the hip. He doesn't believe in splitting the investment universe into value stock versus growth stocks at all. Companies that are growing faster are more valuable. Companies where future earnings are more certain are more valuable then companies where the future of earnings are less certain. That is his view of the world.

Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
1) obviously WB is not adverse to dividend paying companies unlike so many BH.
2) My understanding of dividends is fine and not part of this discussion.
3) So many responders to this post refuse to even discuss the value of dividends, they are the agnostics.
Saying a stock has value over another one solely because it is a dividend payer is meaningless comparison. It is like saying a stock that has a ticker symbol starting with the letter "B" is better than a stock that starts with "C". You need more info than that.


I never stated that. I dont believe anyone else did.
Ok, sorry if I misinterpreted - what specifically about the "value of dividends" did you want to discuss? You aren't really asking anything specific here, just repeating this false narrative over and over that most on BH are dividend-averse and think they are evil.
steadyosmosis
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by steadyosmosis »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:03 am 1) obviously WB is not adverse to dividend paying companies ...
Yes, quite telling ...
Well, I just try to invest the way Warren Buffett said I should invest, and it is working out OK so far.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by toddthebod »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:00 pm
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:09 am
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:02 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am

Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Why would dividend paying stocks be evil and presumed to not have any value? That's an odd conclusion. The dividend payment itself is irrelevant - that doesn't mean you shouldn't invest in dividend-payers. The only evil thing thing is it is forced tax event but asset location can mitigate that somewhat and you don't want to let the tax tail wag the investment dog by tilting towards growth stocks solely for tax savings.
Many BH here do not like div-paying stocks and chastise those that see any value in them, yet they do not mind WB using div paying stocks to his advantage. I find this contradiction and their personal attacks on people that like div stokes quite telling.
How is Warren Buffett "using dividend paying stocks to his advantage?"

There is no contradiction in saying dividend stocks are not better than other stocks while also owning stocks that happen to pay dividends. Everything else is your imagination.
I did not say one was better or worse. It appears its your imagination thats the problem.
No, it's your words:
Many BH here do not like div-paying stocks and chastise those that see any value in them
3) So many responders to this post refuse to even discuss the value of dividends, they are the agnostics.
They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D

What do you see as the "value" of dividend stocks, a word that you have used repeatedly in this thread? If you did not believe dividend stocks were better, why invest in them over a total market fund?

Also, do you know what agnostic means? If you are not agnostic, you must have a preference.
Backtests without cash flows are meaningless. Returns without dividends are lies.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by abuss368 »

loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:50 am Buffett talks a whole lot less about dividends then he talks about what he calls "owner earnings". He talks about how he prefers to own a controlling interest in a business so that he can control capital allocation, but in either case whether he owns a minority position or 100% of the company it is this "owner earnings" calculation he is focused on. Dividends are just a portion of those owner earnings that are being return to him as a shareholder rather than reinvested in the business. Buying back stock is another way of returning owner earnings, and he has written extensively on this, when it makes sense and when it doesn't.

When he is a minority owner and doesn't control capital allocation, he is focused like a laser beam on what management is doing with his "owner earnings". He strongly believes management and the board should do what is best for shareholders and maximize value. If they don't have profitable investment opportunities for those owner earnings, yes he absolutely believes those earnings should be returned to shareholders. If the company's stock is trading substantially below intrinsic value, he wants a buyback. If not, paying a dividend makes sense.

So if in the above sense you want to say Buffett likes dividend stocks, sure. But if you think he sits around like a lot of unsophisticated posters on this site and prefers one stock over another, mainly because the yield is 3.5% instead of 1%, you're a long way from understanding how he thinks. He only cares about dividends as a function of how management is allocating capital.
Hi Lou -

Excellent summary and I would agree with this is how Warren Buffett approaches business and investing.

He is a capital allocator. He looks at the intrinsic value of a business (by discounting back to present value) and decides if that company is trading above or below that intrinsic value. What is a fair price?

Hope you are well.
Tony
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by seajay »

comeinvest wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:21 pm
seajay wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:47 am
rich126 wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:54 am I know some people who hold Berkshire because it doesn't pay dividends. They live in countries where taxes on dividends are very high so they try to avoid them.

He has probably shown that he can invest the extra cash better than most stockholders.
Extreme shifting of bond risk over to the stock side, cold hard cash instead of T-Bills (CASHX), and 20% BRK that pays no dividends 80% hard cash for some can be more tax efficient

Image
I'm not understanding your chart. BRK returned significantly more than cash since 1987, right? On your chart it looks like they were almost equal.
That chart compares had you held 20% in BRK, 80% in hard cash, to if you'd held 100% in T-Bills (CASHX). The 50/50 is just a equal blend of the two.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by seajay »

Boglegrappler wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:38 pm
I assume you're alluding to high weighting to AAPL shares, that BRK acquired a substantial number of at a very good price/deal. Buffett's never been inclined to shy away from a high weighting ... provided its a good deal.
It's worth noting or clarifying that all of the Apple shares owned by BRK were purchased in the open market at prices available to anyone. That said, the purchases may have been a good deal in terms of the overall decision.
As were the shares in his other major single stock purchase, where he spent around twice as much as what was paid for Apple shares (BRK shares buybacks :))
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by HanSolo »

toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am How is Warren Buffett "using dividend paying stocks to his advantage?"
Thanks for asking. Here's your answer (from another thread):
OnTrack wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:51 pm Warren Buffet on dividends:

"Q56: Why do you not believe in dividends when Benjamin Graham believes in it?"

"WB: I had to show a little individuality. [laughter] I do believe in dividends, including dividends at companies where we own stock. The test on dividends is can you create more than one dollar of value than the one you retain. It would be mistake for See’s to retain money because they have no ability to use the cash they make to generate high return internally. We hope to move the capital to a place worth $1.20. If we do that, taxable or not, they are better off if we retain money. But when the time comes that we don’t think we can use money effectively, we will pay it out. But because we have ability to redistribute money in tax efficient way within company, we have more reason to retain earnings in company. We like companies where we have investments to pay to us money they can’t use effectively."

Source: https://warren-buffett-investing.blogsp ... haway.html
Regarding the following:
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
It's better to let Buffett speak for himself (see above) than to speak for him.
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:22 am No one is attacking you - they are trying to help you understand how dividends work.
There are those who should educate themselves first, before trying to educate others.
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:09 am He doesn't care about dividends.
See Buffett quote above (e.g., "We like ...").
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:00 pm
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am There is no contradiction in saying dividend stocks are not better than other stocks while also owning stocks that happen to pay dividends. Everything else is your imagination.
I did not say one was better or worse. It appears its your imagination thats the problem.
No, it's your words:

...
Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
Saying that 'A' has value is not the same thing as saying 'A' is better than 'B'. 'A' can have value while 'B' has some other kind of value. Therefore, the above attempt at a "gotcha" is fallacious.
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm What do you see as the "value" of dividend stocks, a word that you have used repeatedly in this thread?
Buffett has a pretty good answer to that question (which is directly relevant to the thread topic), see Buffett quote above.

Again, thanks for asking.
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burritoLover
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by burritoLover »

Here's Buffett in his own words about how creating a self-dividend by selling can be preferable to an actual dividend. Buffett is the most abused public figure on the planet - thousands of click-bait articles and youtube videos claiming to "invest like Warren Buffett" and slinging all-dividend, yield-chasing strategies as free money. You see some BHers creating entire portfolios based on this garbage.

emphasis below is mine.
Warren Buffett 2012 Annual letter wrote:And that brings us to dividends. Here we have to make a few assumptions and use some math. The
numbers will require careful reading, but they are essential to understanding the case for and against dividends. So bear with me.

We’ll start by assuming that you and I are the equal owners of a business with $2 million of net worth. The business earns 12% on tangible net worth – $240,000 – and can reasonably expect to earn the same 12% on reinvested earnings. Furthermore, there are outsiders who always wish to buy into our business at 125% of net worth. Therefore, the value of what we each own is now $1.25 million.

You would like to have the two of us shareholders receive one-third of our company’s annual earnings and have two-thirds be reinvested. That plan, you feel, will nicely balance your needs for both current income and capital growth. So you suggest that we pay out $80,000 of current earnings and retain $160,000 to increase the future earnings of the business. In the first year, your dividend would be $40,000, and as earnings grew and the onethird payout was maintained, so too would your dividend. In total, dividends and stock value would increase 8% each year (12% earned on net worth less 4% of net worth paid out).

After ten years our company would have a net worth of $4,317,850 (the original $2 million compounded at 8%) and your dividend in the upcoming year would be $86,357. Each of us would have shares worth $2,698,656 (125% of our half of the company’s net worth). And we would live happily ever after – with dividends and the value of our stock continuing to grow at 8% annually.

There is an alternative approach, however, that would leave us even happier. Under this scenario, we would leave all earnings in the company and each sell 3.2% of our shares annually. Since the shares would be sold at 125% of book value, this approach would produce the same $40,000 of cash initially, a sum that would grow annually. Call this option the “sell-off” approach.

Under this “sell-off” scenario, the net worth of our company increases to $6,211,696 after ten years ($2 million compounded at 12%). Because we would be selling shares each year, our percentage ownership would have declined, and, after ten years, we would each own 36.12% of the business. Even so, your share of the net worth of the company at that time would be $2,243,540. And, remember, every dollar of net worth attributable to each of us can be sold for $1.25. Therefore, the market value of your remaining shares would be $2,804,425, about 4% greater than the value of your shares if we had followed the dividend approach.

Moreover, your annual cash receipts from the sell-off policy would now be running 4% more than you would have received under the dividend scenario. Voila! – you would have both more cash to spend annually and more capital value.

This calculation, of course, assumes that our hypothetical company can earn an average of 12% annually on net worth and that its shareholders can sell their shares for an average of 125% of book value. To that point, the S&P 500 earns considerably more than 12% on net worth and sells at a price far above 125% of that net worth. Both assumptions also seem reasonable for Berkshire, though certainly not assured.

Moreover, on the plus side, there also is a possibility that the assumptions will be exceeded. If they are, the argument for the sell-off policy becomes even stronger. Over Berkshire’s history – admittedly one that won’t come close to being repeated – the sell-off policy would have produced results for shareholders dramatically superior to the dividend policy.

Aside from the favorable math, there are two further – and important – arguments for a sell-off policy. First, dividends impose a specific cash-out policy upon all shareholders. If, say, 40% of earnings is the policy, those who wish 30% or 50% will be thwarted. Our 600,000 shareholders cover the waterfront in their desires for cash. It is safe to say, however, that a great many of them – perhaps even most of them – are in a net-savings mode and logically should prefer no payment at all.

The sell-off alternative, on the other hand, lets each shareholder make his own choice between cash receipts and capital build-up. One shareholder can elect to cash out, say, 60% of annual earnings while other shareholders elect 20% or nothing at all. Of course, a shareholder in our dividend-paying scenario could turn around and use his dividends to purchase more shares. But he would take a beating in doing so: He would both incur taxes and also pay a 25% premium to get his dividend reinvested. (Keep remembering, open-market purchases of the stock take place at 125% of book value.)

The second disadvantage of the dividend approach is of equal importance: The tax consequences for all taxpaying shareholders are inferior – usually far inferior – to those under the sell-off program. Under the dividend program, all of the cash received by shareholders each year is taxed whereas the sell-off program results in tax on only the gain portion of the cash receipts.

Let me end this math exercise – and I can hear you cheering as I put away the dentist drill – by using my own case to illustrate how a shareholder’s regular disposals of shares can be accompanied by an increased investment in his or her business. For the last seven years, I have annually given away about 41⁄4% of my Berkshire shares. Through this process, my original position of 712,497,000 B-equivalent shares (split-adjusted) has decreased to 528,525,623 shares. Clearly my ownership percentage of the company has significantly decreased.

Yet my investment in the business has actually increased: The book value of my current interest in Berkshire considerably exceeds the book value attributable to my holdings of seven years ago. (The actual figures are $28.2 billion for 2005 and $40.2 billion for 2012.) In other words, I now have far more money working for me at Berkshire even though my ownership of the company has materially decreased. It’s also true that my share of both Berkshire’s intrinsic business value and the company’s normal earning power is far greater than it was in 2005. Over time, I expect this accretion of value to continue – albeit in a decidedly irregular fashion – even as I now annually give away more than 41⁄2% of my shares (the increase having occurred because I’ve recently doubled my lifetime pledges to certain foundations).
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by loukycpa »

HanSolo wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:17 am
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am How is Warren Buffett "using dividend paying stocks to his advantage?"
Thanks for asking. Here's your answer (from another thread):
OnTrack wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:51 pm Warren Buffet on dividends:

"Q56: Why do you not believe in dividends when Benjamin Graham believes in it?"

"WB: I had to show a little individuality. [laughter] I do believe in dividends, including dividends at companies where we own stock. The test on dividends is can you create more than one dollar of value than the one you retain. It would be mistake for See’s to retain money because they have no ability to use the cash they make to generate high return internally. We hope to move the capital to a place worth $1.20. If we do that, taxable or not, they are better off if we retain money. But when the time comes that we don’t think we can use money effectively, we will pay it out. But because we have ability to redistribute money in tax efficient way within company, we have more reason to retain earnings in company. We like companies where we have investments to pay to us money they can’t use effectively."

Source: https://warren-buffett-investing.blogsp ... haway.html
Regarding the following:
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
It's better to let Buffett speak for himself (see above) than to speak for him.
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:22 am No one is attacking you - they are trying to help you understand how dividends work.
There are those who should educate themselves first, before trying to educate others.
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:09 am He doesn't care about dividends.
See Buffett quote above (e.g., "We like ...").
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:00 pm
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am There is no contradiction in saying dividend stocks are not better than other stocks while also owning stocks that happen to pay dividends. Everything else is your imagination.
I did not say one was better or worse. It appears its your imagination thats the problem.
No, it's your words:

...
Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
Saying that 'A' has value is not the same thing as saying 'A' is better than 'B'. 'A' can have value while 'B' has some other kind of value. Therefore, the above attempt at a "gotcha" is fallacious.
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm What do you see as the "value" of dividend stocks, a word that you have used repeatedly in this thread?
Buffett has a pretty good answer to that question (which is directly relevant to the thread topic), see Buffett quote above.

Again, thanks for asking.
Everything your quote above from Buffett is 110% consistent with what I said previously. Nothing in your quote says he prefers dividends stocks. It is all about capital allocation for him. Yes, absolutely, if the company can't profitably reinvest his share of "owner earnings", he wants the company to return that capital to shareholders, either as a dividend or by buying back shares.

Note that in this exact quote you shared, what he said about See's Candy, a small investment in Berkshire's portfolio. See's has no profitable reinvestment opportunities, so it should return profits to shareholders. The whole point of that statement is to make the point that if See's could earn a high return on their profits, they would retain the earnings rather than pay them out. Once again, he is completely agnostic about dividends. Whether See's or any company should pay a dividend is a function of whether it has a profitable use for retained earnings.

Can you not understand that this has zero connection to what is apparently your assertion, that Buffett prefers dividend paying stocks to stocks that don't pay a dividend? No one here is saying he avoids them, or that dividend stocks don't have value. What is being asserted is that Buffett is indifferent.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by toddthebod »

HanSolo wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:17 am
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am How is Warren Buffett "using dividend paying stocks to his advantage?"
Thanks for asking. Here's your answer (from another thread):
OnTrack wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:51 pm Warren Buffet on dividends:

"Q56: Why do you not believe in dividends when Benjamin Graham believes in it?"

"WB: I had to show a little individuality. [laughter] I do believe in dividends, including dividends at companies where we own stock. The test on dividends is can you create more than one dollar of value than the one you retain. It would be mistake for See’s to retain money because they have no ability to use the cash they make to generate high return internally. We hope to move the capital to a place worth $1.20. If we do that, taxable or not, they are better off if we retain money. But when the time comes that we don’t think we can use money effectively, we will pay it out. But because we have ability to redistribute money in tax efficient way within company, we have more reason to retain earnings in company. We like companies where we have investments to pay to us money they can’t use effectively."

Source: https://warren-buffett-investing.blogsp ... haway.html
Regarding the following:
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
It's better to let Buffett speak for himself (see above) than to speak for him.
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:22 am No one is attacking you - they are trying to help you understand how dividends work.
There are those who should educate themselves first, before trying to educate others.
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:09 am He doesn't care about dividends.
See Buffett quote above (e.g., "We like ...").
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:00 pm
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am There is no contradiction in saying dividend stocks are not better than other stocks while also owning stocks that happen to pay dividends. Everything else is your imagination.
I did not say one was better or worse. It appears its your imagination thats the problem.
No, it's your words:

...
Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
Saying that 'A' has value is not the same thing as saying 'A' is better than 'B'. 'A' can have value while 'B' has some other kind of value. Therefore, the above attempt at a "gotcha" is fallacious.
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm What do you see as the "value" of dividend stocks, a word that you have used repeatedly in this thread?
Buffett has a pretty good answer to that question (which is directly relevant to the thread topic), see Buffett quote above.

Again, thanks for asking.
Two points to respond to:

1. You are not Buffett. You are not choosing whether to invest your company's cash in a new factory or to pay it out as a dividend. The value of dividends from the company's perspective is an entirely different question than the value from an investor's perspective.

2. You always have to choose where to invest your next dollar. Saying dividends "have value" tells me that at some point you made the decision to invest that next dollar in a company or fund because it is known to pay out higher dividends. Do you "prefer" a portfolio that includes a high dividend fund over a portfolio that does not?
Backtests without cash flows are meaningless. Returns without dividends are lies.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by Valuethinker »

LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:51 am
usnaron wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:47 am
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:08 am If I understand correctly, WB invests in dividend paying stocks and they uses that money as he sees fit, which is to invest in companies for better return. Many BH approve of this.

Why then is it a bad move for a BH to invest in dividend paying stocks and use the money as they see fit? If dividends are so verboten why would WB even buy them for the BRK portfolio? Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
He invests in some companies that happen to pay dividends but his decision to invest in them has nothing to do with the fact thatcher pay a dividend. If he had the choice to buy Apple A shares with a dividend and Apple B shares with no dividend, based on his interviews on Thai topic, I believe he would choose the B shares because it would give him more control over his tax drag.
Well no one is forcing him to buy those evil and useless dividend paying stocks. They obviously have a value or he would just buy more growth stocks.
Liquidity. BH is big enough that he has to consider liquidity in everything he buys.

I doubt he could only hold 1 class of stock - given the size of his holding. And he would be unwise too, because if he ever sells, it's going to be harder.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by Valuethinker »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 2:31 pm
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:50 am Buffett talks a whole lot less about dividends then he talks about what he calls "owner earnings". He talks about how he prefers to own a controlling interest in a business so that he can control capital allocation, but in either case whether he owns a minority position or 100% of the company it is this "owner earnings" calculation he is focused on. Dividends are just a portion of those owner earnings that are being return to him as a shareholder rather than reinvested in the business. Buying back stock is another way of returning owner earnings, and he has written extensively on this, when it makes sense and when it doesn't.

When he is a minority owner and doesn't control capital allocation, he is focused like a laser beam on what management is doing with his "owner earnings". He strongly believes management and the board should do what is best for shareholders and maximize value. If they don't have profitable investment opportunities for those owner earnings, yes he absolutely believes those earnings should be returned to shareholders. If the company's stock is trading substantially below intrinsic value, he wants a buyback. If not, paying a dividend makes sense.

So if in the above sense you want to say Buffett likes dividend stocks, sure. But if you think he sits around like a lot of unsophisticated posters on this site and prefers one stock over another, mainly because the yield is 3.5% instead of 1%, you're a long way from understanding how he thinks. He only cares about dividends as a function of how management is allocating capital.
Hi Lou -

Excellent summary and I would agree with this is how Warren Buffett approaches business and investing.

He is a capital allocator. He looks at the intrinsic value of a business (by discounting back to present value) and decides if that company is trading above or below that intrinsic value. What is a fair price?

Hope you are well.
Tony
agree it is an excellent summary of Buffett's approach.

He makes it sound easy. It's not. It's incredibly hard. For an investor with as long a track record as Buffett there is only one example - Buffett himself.

And he is the first one to say that, at BH's size, he cannot repeat the trick -- to the same extent. What he offers to investors now, arguably, is lower volatility (rather than higher returns) than a general index fund. At the risk of Munger and Buffett declining in mental acuity, or dying.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by seajay »

Whakamole wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:25 am
GP813 wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:29 am Buffet has been one of the very best allocators of capital. Why would he return it to shareholders in the form of check when he can successfully as his track record has proven, acquire more of or wholly acquire productive businesses.
Buffet (and many other shareholders) would also start paying a large amount of tax if BRK paid dividends.
If a former 4% SWR investor/retiree through good growth saw that actual dollar amount being reduced to 1% or less of the ongoing portfolio value, then that's a 3%/year of taxable and reinvestment amount of dividends. At a 20% tax rate, 0.6%/year of avoidable cost. The selling shares to DIY your own dividends to the amount and timing of your own choosing is better. Those dividends are also sourced by other investors (buying the shares) rather than out of the stocks own bottom line, and where the shares might be being bought at a rate of 1.5 times the stocks book value.

Some, indeed many private investors might prefer that choice. The number of stocks actually offering that however are extremely few. Just BRK and MKL as far as I know.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by HanSolo »

loukycpa wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:51 am Everything your quote above from Buffett is 110% consistent with what I said previously.
Then perhaps there's no controversy here.
Can you not understand that this has zero connection to what is apparently your assertion, that Buffett prefers dividend paying stocks to stocks that don't pay a dividend?
I'm not a fan of "apparently" statements. If you can quote what I said specifically, and state your objection to that specific assertion, then I can try to clear up whatever it is you're confused about.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by HanSolo »

toddthebod wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:54 am Two points to respond to:

1. You are not Buffett.
That was my point exactly. I quoted Buffett in the interest of accuracy, in preference to people posting their own interpretations of what he said.
Do you "prefer" a portfolio that includes a high dividend fund over a portfolio that does not?
This thread isn't about my own personal investment choices, it's about what Berkshire is doing. If you have a comment about the latter, please post. If you want to introduce the former as a topic, you can start a new thread.

You asked several questions and I answered some of them. I can only give the best answers I can... can't guarantee you'll like them.
Last edited by HanSolo on Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by abuss368 »

Bogleheads -

Is there an ETF that try’s to follow or mimic Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway’s public stock portfolio?

I thought I read something years ago to be the case.

Best.
Tony
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by loukycpa »

Valuethinker wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:11 am
abuss368 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 2:31 pm
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:50 am Buffett talks a whole lot less about dividends then he talks about what he calls "owner earnings". He talks about how he prefers to own a controlling interest in a business so that he can control capital allocation, but in either case whether he owns a minority position or 100% of the company it is this "owner earnings" calculation he is focused on. Dividends are just a portion of those owner earnings that are being return to him as a shareholder rather than reinvested in the business. Buying back stock is another way of returning owner earnings, and he has written extensively on this, when it makes sense and when it doesn't.

When he is a minority owner and doesn't control capital allocation, he is focused like a laser beam on what management is doing with his "owner earnings". He strongly believes management and the board should do what is best for shareholders and maximize value. If they don't have profitable investment opportunities for those owner earnings, yes he absolutely believes those earnings should be returned to shareholders. If the company's stock is trading substantially below intrinsic value, he wants a buyback. If not, paying a dividend makes sense.

So if in the above sense you want to say Buffett likes dividend stocks, sure. But if you think he sits around like a lot of unsophisticated posters on this site and prefers one stock over another, mainly because the yield is 3.5% instead of 1%, you're a long way from understanding how he thinks. He only cares about dividends as a function of how management is allocating capital.
Hi Lou -

Excellent summary and I would agree with this is how Warren Buffett approaches business and investing.

He is a capital allocator. He looks at the intrinsic value of a business (by discounting back to present value) and decides if that company is trading above or below that intrinsic value. What is a fair price?

Hope you are well.
Tony
agree it is an excellent summary of Buffett's approach.

He makes it sound easy. It's not. It's incredibly hard. For an investor with as long a track record as Buffett there is only one example - Buffett himself.

And he is the first one to say that, at BH's size, he cannot repeat the trick -- to the same extent. What he offers to investors now, arguably, is lower volatility (rather than higher returns) than a general index fund. At the risk of Munger and Buffett declining in mental acuity, or dying.
Probably could have added something about "economic moats", something else he talks about a lot. He and Munger would also prefer to focus their portfolio on a few high quality positions they believe in, instead of having broad diversification (concentrated portfolio).

But yes agreed, incredibly hard. He acknowledges this, and encourages the average "know nothing" investor (I put myself in that category) to invest in index funds.

The fact that this is his advice (for the average saver/investor to buy index funds) is quite telling too I think. He could just as easily tell us to buy a cross section of high dividend paying stocks, and hold those forever. The fact that he recommends index funds over a portfolio of dividend stocks is really the key takeaway here we should focus on.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by HanSolo »

loukycpa wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:30 pm The fact that he recommends index funds over a portfolio of dividend stocks is really the key takeaway here we should focus on.
Why is that the key takeaway when the thread is asking a question about how Berkshire operates and not about Buffett's advice to individual investors?
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by comeinvest »

abuss368 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:12 pm Bogleheads -

Is there an ETF that try’s to follow or mimic Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway’s public stock portfolio?

I thought I read something years ago to be the case.

Best.
Tony
I think Buffet said or implied several times that he expects Berkshire's return to just mimic the S&P 500 going forward. So you can mimic BRK by buying an index fund.
But an ETF has to distribute dividends and net capital gains by law.
There might be a slight tax advantage buying BRK instead of the index; but there is also some tax risk of possible double taxation in the future, or tax law changes; and also, BRK might not sell positions that they would otherwise sell, because of capital gains tax consequences. For example, no one knows if BRK would sell AAPL at current valuations, if they didn't have to pay capital gains tax.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by abuss368 »

loukycpa wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:30 pm
Probably could have added something about "economic moats", something else he talks about a lot. He and Munger would also prefer to focus their portfolio on a few high quality positions they believe in, instead of having broad diversification (concentrated portfolio).

But yes agreed, incredibly hard. He acknowledges this, and encourages the average "know nothing" investor (I put myself in that category) to invest in index funds.

The fact that this is his advice (for the average saver/investor to buy index funds) is quite telling too I think. He could just as easily tell us to buy a cross section of high dividend paying stocks, and hold those forever. The fact that he recommends index funds over a portfolio of dividend stocks is really the key takeaway here we should focus on.
Hi Lou -

Perhaps Warren Buffet does believe in some degree of investment concentration. Berkshire Hathaway’s public securities stock portfolio would certainly lead one to believe that.

In addition, perhaps that is why he recommends the S&P 500 Index fund for most investors and we don’t hear him advise to own a global stock portfolio.

Who knows.

Hope you are well.
Tony
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by loukycpa »

abuss368 wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:22 pm
loukycpa wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:30 pm
Probably could have added something about "economic moats", something else he talks about a lot. He and Munger would also prefer to focus their portfolio on a few high quality positions they believe in, instead of having broad diversification (concentrated portfolio).

But yes agreed, incredibly hard. He acknowledges this, and encourages the average "know nothing" investor (I put myself in that category) to invest in index funds.

The fact that this is his advice (for the average saver/investor to buy index funds) is quite telling too I think. He could just as easily tell us to buy a cross section of high dividend paying stocks, and hold those forever. The fact that he recommends index funds over a portfolio of dividend stocks is really the key takeaway here we should focus on.
Hi Lou -

Perhaps Warren Buffet does believe in some degree of investment concentration. Berkshire Hathaway’s public securities stock portfolio would certainly lead one to believe that.

In addition, perhaps that is why he recommends the S&P 500 Index fund for most investors and we don’t hear him advise to own a global stock portfolio.

Who knows.

Hope you are well.
Tony
You are right that any comments I have heard him make about index funds, he seems to always be alluding to the S&P 500 Index Fund without acknowledging the existence of a Total US Market Index Fund. Does that mean he wouldn't advise including small caps or an allocation to international stocks?

I'm not sure, but my assumption is he thinks the S&P 500 is more than sufficiently diversified, to the point further diversification wouldn't add anything to the portfolio. His partner Charlie Munger peevish uses the term "diworsification". They've been pretty much right on this for the last 50 years of market history at least.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by loukycpa »

HanSolo wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:16 pm
loukycpa wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:30 pm The fact that he recommends index funds over a portfolio of dividend stocks is really the key takeaway here we should focus on.
Why is that the key takeaway when the thread is asking a question about how Berkshire operates and not about Buffett's advice to individual investors?
Not sure what you are looking for here. As someone else pointed out to you above, unless you are in charge of capital allocation for a publicly traded company, Buffett's comments on whether those that are in this position should be more inclined to return capital to shareholders or retain it is of little actionable use to you.

Otherwise, as far as looking at "how Berkshire operates", the point has been made that in security selection Buffett is agnostic on dividend payers. Clearly he doesn't avoid them, but he isn't shopping for dividend yield either. And that he doesn't advise individual saver/investors to do so, but instead advises them to be agnostic and invest in cap weighted index funds. To me those are the key takeaways because this is the part that is actionable for presumably 99.99% of those of us reading and participating in the thread.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by GP813 »

Buffett explains why CEOs must learn to be excellent capital allocators: (1) Profitable companies generate cash that must be deployed, and (2) seeking outside assistance generally makes matter worse. From a 1987 letter to shareholders:

The lack of skill that many CEOs have at capital allocation is no small matter: After ten years on the job, a CEO whose company annually retains earnings equal to 10% of net worth will have been responsible for the deployment of more than 60% of all the capital at work in the business.

CEOs who recognize their lack of capital-allocation skills (which not all do) will often try to compensate by turning to their staffs, management consultants, or investment bankers. Charlie and I have frequently observed the consequences of such “help.” On balance, we feel it is more likely to accentuate the capital allocation problem than to solve it.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by HanSolo »

loukycpa wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:50 am
HanSolo wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:16 pm
loukycpa wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:30 pm The fact that he recommends index funds over a portfolio of dividend stocks is really the key takeaway here we should focus on.
Why is that the key takeaway when the thread is asking a question about how Berkshire operates and not about Buffett's advice to individual investors?
Not sure what you are looking for here.
Not looking for anything. Just informing you that your suggested "key takeaway" doesn't contribute anything to answering the question in the original post (and some of us find that question interesting).
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by loukycpa »

HanSolo wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:05 pm
loukycpa wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:50 am
HanSolo wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:16 pm
loukycpa wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:30 pm The fact that he recommends index funds over a portfolio of dividend stocks is really the key takeaway here we should focus on.
Why is that the key takeaway when the thread is asking a question about how Berkshire operates and not about Buffett's advice to individual investors?
Not sure what you are looking for here.
Not looking for anything. Just informing you that your suggested "key takeaway" doesn't contribute anything to answering the question in the original post (and some of us find that question interesting).
Just to be clear, is this the question you are referring to?

"What does he do with the dividends it receives from its holdings?"

If it is, admittedly myself and probably others ignored it because to be honest the answer isn't interesting. Cash is fungible. It is added to the Berkshire war chest ($147B and climbing) for future acquisitions. Treasury bills. Until he finds another investment opportunity that is attractive.

On the question of why he (Buffett) holds onto so much cash, a direct Buffett quote: "If you want to shoot rare, fast moving elephants, you should always carry a loaded gun."

What about that do you find interesting?
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by LaramieWind »

HanSolo wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:17 am
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am How is Warren Buffett "using dividend paying stocks to his advantage?"
Thanks for asking. Here's your answer (from another thread):
OnTrack wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:51 pm Warren Buffet on dividends:

"Q56: Why do you not believe in dividends when Benjamin Graham believes in it?"

"WB: I had to show a little individuality. [laughter] I do believe in dividends, including dividends at companies where we own stock. The test on dividends is can you create more than one dollar of value than the one you retain. It would be mistake for See’s to retain money because they have no ability to use the cash they make to generate high return internally. We hope to move the capital to a place worth $1.20. If we do that, taxable or not, they are better off if we retain money. But when the time comes that we don’t think we can use money effectively, we will pay it out. But because we have ability to redistribute money in tax efficient way within company, we have more reason to retain earnings in company. We like companies where we have investments to pay to us money they can’t use effectively."

Source: https://warren-buffett-investing.blogsp ... haway.html
Regarding the following:
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:06 am Dividends? I promise you that's not even on his radar, except again as part of capital allocation. He's completely agnostic.
It's better to let Buffett speak for himself (see above) than to speak for him.
burritoLover wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:22 am No one is attacking you - they are trying to help you understand how dividends work.
There are those who should educate themselves first, before trying to educate others.
loukycpa wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:09 am He doesn't care about dividends.
See Buffett quote above (e.g., "We like ...").
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm
LaramieWind wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:00 pm
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:05 am There is no contradiction in saying dividend stocks are not better than other stocks while also owning stocks that happen to pay dividends. Everything else is your imagination.
I did not say one was better or worse. It appears its your imagination thats the problem.
No, it's your words:

...
Obviously there is some value to dividend stocks. :D
Saying that 'A' has value is not the same thing as saying 'A' is better than 'B'. 'A' can have value while 'B' has some other kind of value. Therefore, the above attempt at a "gotcha" is fallacious.
toddthebod wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:25 pm What do you see as the "value" of dividend stocks, a word that you have used repeatedly in this thread?
Buffett has a pretty good answer to that question (which is directly relevant to the thread topic), see Buffett quote above.

Again, thanks for asking.

Thanks for reading and understanding my posts on this thread.

It seems too many BH have convinced themselves that dividends have absolutely no purpose and should be avoided at all costs. You cant argue with a Zealot.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by burritoLover »

Lol, I’m glad that is all straightened out.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by dukeblue219 »

mindboggling wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:49 pm A company's website is primarily a sales and marketing tool. Any benefit to the customer is purely incidental.
This reads like something someone would write in 1994.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by HanSolo »

loukycpa wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:20 pm Just to be clear, is this the question you are referring to?

"What does he do with the dividends it receives from its holdings?"
Yes.
If it is, admittedly myself and probably others ignored it because to be honest the answer isn't interesting.
No one is obligated to post in threads they're not interested in.
On the question of why he (Buffett) holds onto so much cash, a direct Buffett quote: "If you want to shoot rare, fast moving elephants, you should always carry a loaded gun."
I've heard that there are other reasons (e.g., maintaining insurance float).
What about that do you find interesting?
Those who own Berkshire directly (I own shares of BRK-B) or are considering purchasing it may be interested in information about how the company operates. I don't see the point of one going out of one's way to post objections to people asking and answering questions about it.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by HanSolo »

JoMoney wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:48 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:40 am... Bringing their website out of the dark ages may even happen, who knows? https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/
I sure hope not. Honestly, I hope a trend starts, or returns to, a style of predominately text based web pages, without the unnecessary, bandwidth wasting, animated fluff and scripts/code that make it difficult to parse out information because they put too much weight on being flashy.
If your web page isn't just as functional in a Lynx browser, it's a bad web page IMO.
mindboggling wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:49 pm A company's website is primarily a sales and marketing tool. Any benefit to the customer is purely incidental.
dukeblue219 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:07 pm This reads like something someone would write in 1994.
Yes. 1994 was when the web was more focused on providing information, than on flashy presentations trying to sell you something, or on making it hard to find stuff so the web developers can feel smart, or on treating users like they can't handle seeing more than 5 pieces of actual information at a time.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by Valuethinker »

GP813 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:10 am Buffett explains why CEOs must learn to be excellent capital allocators: (1) Profitable companies generate cash that must be deployed, and (2) seeking outside assistance generally makes matter worse. From a 1987 letter to shareholders:

The lack of skill that many CEOs have at capital allocation is no small matter: After ten years on the job, a CEO whose company annually retains earnings equal to 10% of net worth will have been responsible for the deployment of more than 60% of all the capital at work in the business.

CEOs who recognize their lack of capital-allocation skills (which not all do) will often try to compensate by turning to their staffs, management consultants, or investment bankers. Charlie and I have frequently observed the consequences of such “help.” On balance, we feel it is more likely to accentuate the capital allocation problem than to solve it.
Good quote.

Aligns very well with academic theory and practice (Michael Jensen - The Free Cash Flow Theory of the Firm). Empirical evidence vastly supports.

One thing you do see in practice though is that companies in fast moving industries need to keep large amounts of net cash (tech industry). Of course that cash may not be well employed (Intel). And Buffett invested heavily in IBM which, despite its attention to shareholder value via buybacks, has not been a good investment. Apple on the other hand has been. It always interests me that he missed Microsoft - perhaps his personal friendship with Bill Gates led him to eschew investing in the stock?

Amazon would be an example both of my "cash reserve theory" (ie that companies in industries like tech need to husband cash resources and constantly be making acquisitions & new investments in anticipation of the "new new thing" that will disrupt their business) and the sort of company (along with Tesla) that Buffett would never invest in.

I wonder whether Buffett has held TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor)? Prodigious investment rate - as capital intensive as Intel or more so. But they have "won", at least this phase of the technology race.
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by dukeblue219 »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:30 am I wonder whether Buffett has held TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor)? Prodigious investment rate - as capital intensive as Intel or more so. But they have "won", at least this phase of the technology race.
Funny you should ask. Berkshire bought a relatively small $4B position a year ago and then dumped it months later upon realizing he didn't trust Taiwan's future enough. It was controversial at the time, loosely portrayed as Buffett "betting" on China invading Taiwan soon.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/16/investin ... index.html
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Re: Berkshire Hathaway and Dividends

Post by Valuethinker »

dukeblue219 wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:08 am
Valuethinker wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:30 am I wonder whether Buffett has held TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor)? Prodigious investment rate - as capital intensive as Intel or more so. But they have "won", at least this phase of the technology race.
Funny you should ask. Berkshire bought a relatively small $4B position a year ago and then dumped it months later upon realizing he didn't trust Taiwan's future enough. It was controversial at the time, loosely portrayed as Buffett "betting" on China invading Taiwan soon.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/16/investin ... index.html
Sigh. I try to remember that if you had told me, 2 years ago, we would soon be in a 500+ day war between Russia and Ukraine, which would have the most intense sustained combat in Europe since WW2, and as bad as the worst of the Korean or Vietnam Wars, with no Russian gas flowing into Europe, I would have predicted economic and stockmarket collapse.* As it is, European economy has survived (not without scars) and stockmarkets are broadly up.

Yet another example of how perfect foresight on world events & economic factors does not allow you to predict financial markets.

Taiwan is, of course, more important to the world economy (if not to people who eat wheat in developing countries) than Ukraine. Far more important given its role in semiconductor technology & manufacturing. And the risk of a superpower confrontation is much much greater.

Thank you for that update.

* I also would not have believed that it could have gone on so long, without a collapse by Ukraine. So much for me & "conventional wisdom".
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